| wrx2.0 555 | 06-25-2003 11:15 AM |
Another STX legal management question.
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A buddy of mine has an Integra Type R. Here is an explanation from him about a piece of engine management that he uses.
"The VTEC/Fuel controller I have is made by Fields. It allows me to change the VTEC switchover point for the cams on the fly and also allows fuel adjustment +-30% at 8 RPM points. It then builds a fuel curve based on the points, at 2000 rpm add 2 %, at 3000 rpm add 6 %, it then automatically calculates what the % to change at 2500 rpm based on the other 2 points. It has a high cam and low cam fuel map. "
In my ignorant opinion, this seems no different than altering boost on a turbo car. However, thats not legal in stx.
If what he is doing is legal, then can I assume that the "reflashes" will be legal, given this qoute-
"No...the reflash basically enlarges the available envelope of boost control the ECU is capable of. My understanding is that the highly sophisticated boost control in our WRX ( controlled by the ECU )uses a whole host of data base parameters to control everything the engine does AND it is quite conservative / stingy, erring on the side of boost cut and enriching the AF ratio to
prevent det and high tempurature in the combustion chamber. The reflash broadens the parameters the ECU uses as target benchmarks. It does not go in and specifically say ..."Hey, I want 15PSI at WOT from 3650 RPM to redline, etc,etc."
I put this thread in this forum because I tend to see and get more professional responses than in the "engine management" forum. Also, this is more or less specifically directed at the legality of these methods in STX.
Thank a lot,
Scott
P.S. Bare in mind, these qoutes are NOT from professionals, so some corrections are welcome, if necessary.
"The VTEC/Fuel controller I have is made by Fields. It allows me to change the VTEC switchover point for the cams on the fly and also allows fuel adjustment +-30% at 8 RPM points. It then builds a fuel curve based on the points, at 2000 rpm add 2 %, at 3000 rpm add 6 %, it then automatically calculates what the % to change at 2500 rpm based on the other 2 points. It has a high cam and low cam fuel map. "
In my ignorant opinion, this seems no different than altering boost on a turbo car. However, thats not legal in stx.
If what he is doing is legal, then can I assume that the "reflashes" will be legal, given this qoute-
"No...the reflash basically enlarges the available envelope of boost control the ECU is capable of. My understanding is that the highly sophisticated boost control in our WRX ( controlled by the ECU )uses a whole host of data base parameters to control everything the engine does AND it is quite conservative / stingy, erring on the side of boost cut and enriching the AF ratio to
prevent det and high tempurature in the combustion chamber. The reflash broadens the parameters the ECU uses as target benchmarks. It does not go in and specifically say ..."Hey, I want 15PSI at WOT from 3650 RPM to redline, etc,etc."
I put this thread in this forum because I tend to see and get more professional responses than in the "engine management" forum. Also, this is more or less specifically directed at the legality of these methods in STX.
Thank a lot,
Scott
P.S. Bare in mind, these qoutes are NOT from professionals, so some corrections are welcome, if necessary.
| MNbiker | 06-25-2003 11:24 AM |
It's all in da rulez.
[b]The VTEC controller is STX-legal.[/b]
17.10.D.5 VTEC controllers and other devices may be used which alter the timing of factory standard electronic variable valve timing systems.
[b]Boost control is not.[/b]
Excerpted from 17.10.D "...except that no changes to standard boost levels, intercoolers, or boost controls are permitted."
-Steve
[b]The VTEC controller is STX-legal.[/b]
17.10.D.5 VTEC controllers and other devices may be used which alter the timing of factory standard electronic variable valve timing systems.
[b]Boost control is not.[/b]
Excerpted from 17.10.D "...except that no changes to standard boost levels, intercoolers, or boost controls are permitted."
-Steve
| wrx2.0 555 | 06-25-2003 11:32 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by MNbiker [/i]
[B]It's all in da rulez.
[b]The VTEC controller is STX-legal.[/b]
17.10.D.5 VTEC controllers and other devices may be used which alter the timing of factory standard electronic variable valve timing systems.
[b]Boost control is not.[/b]
Excerpted from 17.10.D "...except that no changes to standard boost levels, intercoolers, or boost controls are permitted."
-Steve [/B][/QUOTE]
Well, given the explanation of the reflash, assuming thats accurate, do you think that will be legal?
[B]It's all in da rulez.
[b]The VTEC controller is STX-legal.[/b]
17.10.D.5 VTEC controllers and other devices may be used which alter the timing of factory standard electronic variable valve timing systems.
[b]Boost control is not.[/b]
Excerpted from 17.10.D "...except that no changes to standard boost levels, intercoolers, or boost controls are permitted."
-Steve [/B][/QUOTE]
Well, given the explanation of the reflash, assuming thats accurate, do you think that will be legal?
| KC | 06-25-2003 11:38 AM |
Controlling VTEC is legal.
Controlling Fuel is legal UNLESS he also replaced a Fuel Pressure Regulator. "It is not permitted to electronically modify the fuel system AND replace a fuel presure regulator. "
If our cars had AVECS, we'd be able to change that too. :)
--kC
Controlling Fuel is legal UNLESS he also replaced a Fuel Pressure Regulator. "It is not permitted to electronically modify the fuel system AND replace a fuel presure regulator. "
If our cars had AVECS, we'd be able to change that too. :)
--kC
| BriDrive | 06-25-2003 11:51 AM |
Is SCCA even specifically addressing ECU reflash for forced induction platforms....From my understanding...it appears that the conservative approach is to not implement some mod that is not specifically addressed by the code....however, I guess any particular mod (such as reflash)would need to be fully understood by the code writers or reflashers to know whether it violates any current code or impacts how technical releases will address it. The sad part is, frankly, reflashed ECU's are invisible and are probably being used in STX all over the place. You won't know or hear about it unless somebody speculatively protests or protest based on knowledge that the user has reflash in his car>
| ChrisW | 06-25-2003 12:03 PM |
Given [i]that[/i] explination of the reflash, it would not be legal.
[QUOTE]
My understanding is that the highly sophisticated boost control in our WRX ( controlled by the ECU )uses a whole host of data base parameters to control everything the engine does AND it is quite conservative / stingy, erring on the side of boost cut and enriching the AF ratio to
prevent det and high tempurature in the combustion chamber.[/QUOTE]
First the ECU err's on the side of emmision output not boost cut and AF ratios. Our ECU is "table driven" that is, readings are taken from the engine sensors, apply some calcualtions, do a table lookup, send that value to engine, etc...
I have communicated with Doug Gill about reflashing our ECU's. Under the reflash rules we apply the same restrictions as found in street prepared.
The bad news, we can only modify ignition and fuel trim tables. The good news, after talking with Vishnu, most of the tables in the ECU are ignition timing adjustments or fuel trim adjustments. (not including the boost control tables of course, the boost control system uses it's own table).
The reflash actually does not broaden the ECU's capabilities, but narrows it, drastically, to a limited performance range ( max hp, max torque ). The stock ECU is far more generic, programmed for minimum emmisions output, and to accomidate the wide variety of different fuel and driving conditions found in the US.
[QUOTE]
My understanding is that the highly sophisticated boost control in our WRX ( controlled by the ECU )uses a whole host of data base parameters to control everything the engine does AND it is quite conservative / stingy, erring on the side of boost cut and enriching the AF ratio to
prevent det and high tempurature in the combustion chamber.[/QUOTE]
First the ECU err's on the side of emmision output not boost cut and AF ratios. Our ECU is "table driven" that is, readings are taken from the engine sensors, apply some calcualtions, do a table lookup, send that value to engine, etc...
I have communicated with Doug Gill about reflashing our ECU's. Under the reflash rules we apply the same restrictions as found in street prepared.
The bad news, we can only modify ignition and fuel trim tables. The good news, after talking with Vishnu, most of the tables in the ECU are ignition timing adjustments or fuel trim adjustments. (not including the boost control tables of course, the boost control system uses it's own table).
The reflash actually does not broaden the ECU's capabilities, but narrows it, drastically, to a limited performance range ( max hp, max torque ). The stock ECU is far more generic, programmed for minimum emmisions output, and to accomidate the wide variety of different fuel and driving conditions found in the US.
| MNbiker | 06-25-2003 12:39 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ChrisW [/i]
[B]Given [i]that[/i] explination of the reflash, it would not be legal.
First the ECU err's on the side of emmision output not boost cut and AF ratios. Our ECU is "table driven" that is, readings are taken from the engine sensors, apply some calcualtions, do a table lookup, send that value to engine, etc...
I have communicated with Doug Gill about reflashing our ECU's. Under the reflash rules we apply the same restrictions as found in street prepared.
The bad news, we can only modify ignition and fuel trim tables. The good news, after talking with Vishnu, most of the tables in the ECU are ignition timing adjustments or fuel trim adjustments. (not including the boost control tables of course, the boost control system uses it's own table).
The reflash actually does not broaden the ECU's capabilities, but narrows it, drastically, to a limited performance range ( max hp, max torque ). The stock ECU is far more generic, programmed for minimum emmisions output, and to accomidate the wide variety of different fuel and driving conditions found in the US. [/B][/QUOTE]
What he said. The key is that all re-flashes are not created equal - tuners using the ECUTek or AccessECU software choose the parameters they change. A re-flash that modifies boost control or fuel cut will be illegal. One that leaves these parameters intact, and just changes fuel/timing should be legal.
-Steve
[B]Given [i]that[/i] explination of the reflash, it would not be legal.
First the ECU err's on the side of emmision output not boost cut and AF ratios. Our ECU is "table driven" that is, readings are taken from the engine sensors, apply some calcualtions, do a table lookup, send that value to engine, etc...
I have communicated with Doug Gill about reflashing our ECU's. Under the reflash rules we apply the same restrictions as found in street prepared.
The bad news, we can only modify ignition and fuel trim tables. The good news, after talking with Vishnu, most of the tables in the ECU are ignition timing adjustments or fuel trim adjustments. (not including the boost control tables of course, the boost control system uses it's own table).
The reflash actually does not broaden the ECU's capabilities, but narrows it, drastically, to a limited performance range ( max hp, max torque ). The stock ECU is far more generic, programmed for minimum emmisions output, and to accomidate the wide variety of different fuel and driving conditions found in the US. [/B][/QUOTE]
What he said. The key is that all re-flashes are not created equal - tuners using the ECUTek or AccessECU software choose the parameters they change. A re-flash that modifies boost control or fuel cut will be illegal. One that leaves these parameters intact, and just changes fuel/timing should be legal.
-Steve
| trhoppe | 06-25-2003 01:09 PM |
Perfect timing. In the current fastrack there is a paragraph that says "Per the STAC, competitors in STS/STX are reminded that
altered ECU engine controllers may NOT alter boost levels in forced induction engines."
ANYTHING WITH THE ECU CANNOT MODIFY THE BOOST LEVEL IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM.
-Tom
altered ECU engine controllers may NOT alter boost levels in forced induction engines."
ANYTHING WITH THE ECU CANNOT MODIFY THE BOOST LEVEL IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM.
-Tom
| KC | 06-25-2003 01:10 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ChrisW [/i]
[B](not including the boost control tables of course, the boost control system uses it's own table).[/B][/QUOTE]
Can you do a re-flash without changing the map that came with your car?
Nope. You have to get 'A' map. Where did this map come from? NOT from your car. (ie: downloaded off [I]YOUR[/I] Stock ECU and put back on, exact value for exact value, column by column, row by row. If shiv can read your Boost Table, then why can't SOA read it with their tools? Answer: you cannot. It's a made up table taking the best of one and the best of others using best knowledge of recording realtime data and 'filling in the blanks'. There's no 'table dump feature' AFAIK). And then how can one tell? You cannot just go to a dealer and look at the table. They cannot read it. How does one know exactly WHAT STOCK VALUES ARE? No way of knowing, especially in a protest situation. Hence, any way of using an ECU that could adjust boost, IMHO, should be illegal, becuase it CANNOT be independently verified.)
I'm being obstinate and thick headed here I know. But I feel the boost maps ARE changed on your ECU when you get an ECUTek.
--kC
[B](not including the boost control tables of course, the boost control system uses it's own table).[/B][/QUOTE]
Can you do a re-flash without changing the map that came with your car?
Nope. You have to get 'A' map. Where did this map come from? NOT from your car. (ie: downloaded off [I]YOUR[/I] Stock ECU and put back on, exact value for exact value, column by column, row by row. If shiv can read your Boost Table, then why can't SOA read it with their tools? Answer: you cannot. It's a made up table taking the best of one and the best of others using best knowledge of recording realtime data and 'filling in the blanks'. There's no 'table dump feature' AFAIK). And then how can one tell? You cannot just go to a dealer and look at the table. They cannot read it. How does one know exactly WHAT STOCK VALUES ARE? No way of knowing, especially in a protest situation. Hence, any way of using an ECU that could adjust boost, IMHO, should be illegal, becuase it CANNOT be independently verified.)
I'm being obstinate and thick headed here I know. But I feel the boost maps ARE changed on your ECU when you get an ECUTek.
--kC
| wrx2.0 555 | 06-25-2003 01:33 PM |
Thanks to everyone for your responses :)
For some dumb reason, I just thought of going to Cobb's website and digging thru their forums.
Apparently, they are working on a STX legal map now. I found no evidence that one was ready, though. :(
My understanding of "stock boost levels" are as follows: Max is approx 14psi which tapers off to approx 12psi at high rpms.
I see no reason why Cobb or Shiv couldnt make other adjustments to optimize the car but keep similar boost numbers in order to prevent a protest.
Scott
For some dumb reason, I just thought of going to Cobb's website and digging thru their forums.
Apparently, they are working on a STX legal map now. I found no evidence that one was ready, though. :(
My understanding of "stock boost levels" are as follows: Max is approx 14psi which tapers off to approx 12psi at high rpms.
I see no reason why Cobb or Shiv couldnt make other adjustments to optimize the car but keep similar boost numbers in order to prevent a protest.
Scott
| ChrisW | 06-25-2003 01:36 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC [/i]
[B]
I'm being obstinate and thick headed here I know. But I feel the boost maps ARE changed on your ECU when you get an ECUTek.
--kC [/B][/QUOTE]
yes you are being obstinate and thick headed :p You can reflash ignition and timing maps independantly of the boost control systems.;)
[B]
I'm being obstinate and thick headed here I know. But I feel the boost maps ARE changed on your ECU when you get an ECUTek.
--kC [/B][/QUOTE]
yes you are being obstinate and thick headed :p You can reflash ignition and timing maps independantly of the boost control systems.;)
| trhoppe | 06-25-2003 01:37 PM |
[QUOTE]My understanding of "stock boost levels" are as follows: Max is approx 14psi which tapers off to approx 12psi at high rpms.[/QUOTE] It is supposed to taper off to less than 12psi. If youre getting 12psi taper you have something whacko with your car.
-Tom
-Tom
| wrx2.0 555 | 06-25-2003 01:41 PM |
Tom,
First of all, I wish I knew you, this would be more fun. Second, you missed a key word in my statement [B][SIZE=4][COLOR=darkred]"APPROX."[/COLOR][/SIZE][/B]
Thank you very much, :p :D
Scott
edit: I do look forward to meeting you, maybe at next years Nationals or a divisional. I [B]DO[/B] plan on kicking your butt. (on the track, of course) Just trying to think positive :cool:
First of all, I wish I knew you, this would be more fun. Second, you missed a key word in my statement [B][SIZE=4][COLOR=darkred]"APPROX."[/COLOR][/SIZE][/B]
Thank you very much, :p :D
Scott
edit: I do look forward to meeting you, maybe at next years Nationals or a divisional. I [B]DO[/B] plan on kicking your butt. (on the track, of course) Just trying to think positive :cool:
| trhoppe | 06-25-2003 01:43 PM |
In 3rd gear, mine tapers off to almost 8psi
-Tom
-Tom
| wrx2.0 555 | 06-25-2003 01:45 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B]In 3rd gear, mine tapers off to almost 8psi
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
You must be busy at work, like me!!!:lol:
[B]In 3rd gear, mine tapers off to almost 8psi
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
You must be busy at work, like me!!!:lol:
| BriDrive | 06-25-2003 01:55 PM |
Scott....give up....let this engine management plan go....forget about it.....think S U S P E N S I O N... s u s p e n s i o n....Oh wellski...just kiddin ya fella....BTW...folks around here like to get double wrapped in semantics don't they? DBase parameters and tables, etc, etc, ad infinitum...Does it show what ya know, or does it show what ya read....see ya on the track
| wrx2.0 555 | 06-25-2003 01:58 PM |
Leave it to you to put GPS coordinates as your location :p
| BriDrive | 06-25-2003 02:06 PM |
Nice touch EY! I think it's somewhere in the middle of the St.John's no less...Reflash right now (ie Cobb) doesn't look like it would pass STX currently.....Hmmm, come to think of it, neither would restrictor tubes....
| PaulC | 06-25-2003 02:15 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B]Perfect timing. In the current fastrack there is a paragraph that says "Per the STAC, competitors in STS/STX are reminded that
altered ECU engine controllers may NOT alter boost levels in forced induction engines."
ANYTHING WITH THE ECU CANNOT MODIFY THE BOOST LEVEL IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM.
[/B][/QUOTE]
The fastrack clearly says boost LEVEL, not PARAMETER.
So, if you reflashed your ECU, but did not alter any boost control parameters, and measurable boost levels changed you are illegal.
If you reflashed your ECU, but did alter boost parameters to maintain stock boost levels, you are illegal, per rule 17.10.D
Since boost paramters appear to be keyed off of other tables, it seems to me that ANY reflash that doesn't touch boost parameters will end up altering boost levels, hence you'd be illegal again per the fastrack.
Looks to me like anyone who touches their ECU is illegal. The way the rules are written you can't take advantage of the rules available to NA competitors due to the architecture of the ECU.
[B]Perfect timing. In the current fastrack there is a paragraph that says "Per the STAC, competitors in STS/STX are reminded that
altered ECU engine controllers may NOT alter boost levels in forced induction engines."
ANYTHING WITH THE ECU CANNOT MODIFY THE BOOST LEVEL IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM.
[/B][/QUOTE]
The fastrack clearly says boost LEVEL, not PARAMETER.
So, if you reflashed your ECU, but did not alter any boost control parameters, and measurable boost levels changed you are illegal.
If you reflashed your ECU, but did alter boost parameters to maintain stock boost levels, you are illegal, per rule 17.10.D
Since boost paramters appear to be keyed off of other tables, it seems to me that ANY reflash that doesn't touch boost parameters will end up altering boost levels, hence you'd be illegal again per the fastrack.
Looks to me like anyone who touches their ECU is illegal. The way the rules are written you can't take advantage of the rules available to NA competitors due to the architecture of the ECU.
| KC | 06-25-2003 02:24 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by PaulC [/i]
[B]
The fastrack clearly says boost LEVEL, not PARAMETER.
So, if you reflashed your ECU, but did not alter any boost control parameters, and measurable boost levels changed you are illegal.
If you reflashed your ECU, but did alter boost parameters to maintain stock boost levels, you are illegal, per rule 17.10.D
Since boost paramters appear to be keyed off of other tables, it seems to me that ANY reflash that doesn't touch boost parameters will end up altering boost levels, hence you'd be illegal again per the fastrack.
Looks to me like anyone who touches their ECU is illegal. The way the rules are written you can't take advantage of the rules available to NA competitors due to the architecture of the ECU. [/B][/QUOTE]It's a double edged sword really.
On the one hand - A LEGAL mod that the resultant configuration increases/spikes boost is legal (see boost creep in ESP talon/Eclipses with just exhaust mods)
On the other - Ths modification of an ECU is a PITA because there's no one out there that tunes these cars that can say "It does NOT alter boost levels". The problem is, even if they did, there are those in competition that would not beleive the tuner of the ECU to be truthful if it means his product is being used to win.
Ergo, there's no way to Independently verify (in the case of a protest) if it was the Reflash or other mods. Gonna do some playing this weekend with my Stock ECU, my vishnu Unichip and a car that has an EcuTec... and see what Delta Dash says is the difference between the three.
--kC
[B]
The fastrack clearly says boost LEVEL, not PARAMETER.
So, if you reflashed your ECU, but did not alter any boost control parameters, and measurable boost levels changed you are illegal.
If you reflashed your ECU, but did alter boost parameters to maintain stock boost levels, you are illegal, per rule 17.10.D
Since boost paramters appear to be keyed off of other tables, it seems to me that ANY reflash that doesn't touch boost parameters will end up altering boost levels, hence you'd be illegal again per the fastrack.
Looks to me like anyone who touches their ECU is illegal. The way the rules are written you can't take advantage of the rules available to NA competitors due to the architecture of the ECU. [/B][/QUOTE]It's a double edged sword really.
On the one hand - A LEGAL mod that the resultant configuration increases/spikes boost is legal (see boost creep in ESP talon/Eclipses with just exhaust mods)
On the other - Ths modification of an ECU is a PITA because there's no one out there that tunes these cars that can say "It does NOT alter boost levels". The problem is, even if they did, there are those in competition that would not beleive the tuner of the ECU to be truthful if it means his product is being used to win.
Ergo, there's no way to Independently verify (in the case of a protest) if it was the Reflash or other mods. Gonna do some playing this weekend with my Stock ECU, my vishnu Unichip and a car that has an EcuTec... and see what Delta Dash says is the difference between the three.
--kC
| ChrisW | 06-25-2003 02:27 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by PaulC [/i]
[B]
Looks to me like anyone who touches their ECU is illegal. The way the rules are written you can't take advantage of the rules available to NA competitors due to the architecture of the ECU. [/B][/QUOTE]
actually Paul, your interpretation if fortunetly incorrect.
Here is a response I got from the SEB/STAC liason Mark Sipe on this issue
[QUOTE]
[i] dated Thu 5/29/2003[/i]
Hello Chris,
First, thank you for taking the time to write in to us and ask for a clarification regarding ST rule 17.10.D. We just want to let you know that this has been reviewed thoroughly by both the STAC and SEB. We are in complete agreement with the explanation given to you previously by Doug Gill, Solo Tech. Manager. Boost changes indirectly resulting from allowed modifications; inlet, exhaust, etc., are permissible, but directly altering or modifying the boost or turbo controls, either mechanically or electronically, is strictly prohibited. [b]Competitors are allowed to modify ECU programming for fuel, timing, etc., but not the boost/turbo control programming; i.e., boost control map, bypass valve actuation, wastegate, boost safety and cutoff, etc., etc.. [/b]
We hope this answers your original question in it's entirety.
Sincerely.
Mark Sipe
SEB/STAC Liason[/QUOTE]
So as long as you reflash with in the allowed parameters (ignition and fuel trim maps) your legal. Unfortunetly, the WRX [i]you[/i] have been competing in :p has an incorrect map because of the original assumption that we had to maintain the stock boost curve.
[B]
Looks to me like anyone who touches their ECU is illegal. The way the rules are written you can't take advantage of the rules available to NA competitors due to the architecture of the ECU. [/B][/QUOTE]
actually Paul, your interpretation if fortunetly incorrect.
Here is a response I got from the SEB/STAC liason Mark Sipe on this issue
[QUOTE]
[i] dated Thu 5/29/2003[/i]
Hello Chris,
First, thank you for taking the time to write in to us and ask for a clarification regarding ST rule 17.10.D. We just want to let you know that this has been reviewed thoroughly by both the STAC and SEB. We are in complete agreement with the explanation given to you previously by Doug Gill, Solo Tech. Manager. Boost changes indirectly resulting from allowed modifications; inlet, exhaust, etc., are permissible, but directly altering or modifying the boost or turbo controls, either mechanically or electronically, is strictly prohibited. [b]Competitors are allowed to modify ECU programming for fuel, timing, etc., but not the boost/turbo control programming; i.e., boost control map, bypass valve actuation, wastegate, boost safety and cutoff, etc., etc.. [/b]
We hope this answers your original question in it's entirety.
Sincerely.
Mark Sipe
SEB/STAC Liason[/QUOTE]
So as long as you reflash with in the allowed parameters (ignition and fuel trim maps) your legal. Unfortunetly, the WRX [i]you[/i] have been competing in :p has an incorrect map because of the original assumption that we had to maintain the stock boost curve.
| BriDrive | 06-25-2003 02:38 PM |
A larger problem as I see it is in the governance of the rules...Unless the ECU were to be tested by a rules body or through some other means....nobody's going to know from one reflash to the next, which do modify boost table, which don't....its strictly an honor thing by the driver...'Well, uh...um..yes I have the STX legal map reflash' or 'Geez...I...errrr...uhh...well, I have a reflash but they...uh...didn't tell me what it does per se...'
| trhoppe | 06-25-2003 02:55 PM |
A deltadash test and a boost gauge test will be enough for a nationals protest. A boost gauge by itself was good enough for my boost protest last year at nationals.
-Tom
-Tom
| wrx2.0 555 | 06-25-2003 02:58 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B]A deltadash test and a boost gauge test will be enough for a nationals protest. A boost gauge by itself was good enough for my boost protest last year at nationals.
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
Maybe you should package that and sell it :D
[SIZE=3][B][COLOR=blue]ECU PROTEST KIT!!! GET YOURS TODAY!!![/COLOR][/B][/SIZE]
[B]A deltadash test and a boost gauge test will be enough for a nationals protest. A boost gauge by itself was good enough for my boost protest last year at nationals.
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
Maybe you should package that and sell it :D
[SIZE=3][B][COLOR=blue]ECU PROTEST KIT!!! GET YOURS TODAY!!![/COLOR][/B][/SIZE]
| MNbiker | 06-25-2003 03:56 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by wrx2.0 555 [/i]
[B]
Maybe you should package that and sell it :D
[SIZE=3][B][COLOR=blue]ECU PROTEST KIT!!! GET YOURS TODAY!!![/COLOR][/B][/SIZE] [/B][/QUOTE]
ROFL:lol: :lol: :lol:
Advertising to include a banner on: [url]http://www.honda-tech.com/[/url]
[B]
Maybe you should package that and sell it :D
[SIZE=3][B][COLOR=blue]ECU PROTEST KIT!!! GET YOURS TODAY!!![/COLOR][/B][/SIZE] [/B][/QUOTE]
ROFL:lol: :lol: :lol:
Advertising to include a banner on: [url]http://www.honda-tech.com/[/url]
| AUTOwrXER | 06-26-2003 01:48 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC [/i]
[B]Gonna do some playing this weekend with my Stock ECU, my vishnu Unichip and a car that has an EcuTec... and see what Delta Dash says is the difference between the three.
--kC [/B][/QUOTE]
Let us know how it turns out. I chose the ECUtek because my car is a daily driver and I didn't want to sacrifice drivability in the 95% of the time that I'm not at the track. The car will probably not be a daily driver next year, and (pending some back to back testing) I think I may be just as well off doing the Unichip for autocross. I don't think it's costing Tom much power, and it allows a nice fat boost spike in low rpm situations when the turbo spools initially.
It would be nice if we didn't have to sacrifice drivability in a class designed to "run what you brung." Unfortunately, enforcability is the issue. I'm probably looking to get rid of the ECUtek and go to the Unichip later this year.
Joel
[B]Gonna do some playing this weekend with my Stock ECU, my vishnu Unichip and a car that has an EcuTec... and see what Delta Dash says is the difference between the three.
--kC [/B][/QUOTE]
Let us know how it turns out. I chose the ECUtek because my car is a daily driver and I didn't want to sacrifice drivability in the 95% of the time that I'm not at the track. The car will probably not be a daily driver next year, and (pending some back to back testing) I think I may be just as well off doing the Unichip for autocross. I don't think it's costing Tom much power, and it allows a nice fat boost spike in low rpm situations when the turbo spools initially.
It would be nice if we didn't have to sacrifice drivability in a class designed to "run what you brung." Unfortunately, enforcability is the issue. I'm probably looking to get rid of the ECUtek and go to the Unichip later this year.
Joel
| Dussander | 06-26-2003 04:20 PM |
Eh, I'm just going to get a stock ECU and have the fuel and timing changed via EcuTek version 1. I KNOW I'm not trying to cheat and that is good enough for me. I'm not going to worry about other peoples paranoia.
| wrx2.0 555 | 06-26-2003 04:55 PM |
Quick one---
Does this-------
B.Alternate air cleaner enclosures up to carburetor or throttle body. This does not allow any changes to intercoolers.
mean NO INTERCOOLER HOSES???? I.E. Samco Silicon Hoses
Does this-------
B.Alternate air cleaner enclosures up to carburetor or throttle body. This does not allow any changes to intercoolers.
mean NO INTERCOOLER HOSES???? I.E. Samco Silicon Hoses
| MNbiker | 06-26-2003 05:45 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by wrx2.0 555 [/i]
[B]Quick one---
Does this-------
B.Alternate air cleaner enclosures up to carburetor or throttle body. This does not allow any changes to intercoolers.
mean NO INTERCOOLER HOSES???? I.E. Samco Silicon Hoses [/B][/QUOTE]
Personally, I think the intercooler hoses MIGHT be legal. However, there have been differing, conflicting views from various STAC members. I guess we won't know for sure, until some guinea pig gets protested. You volunteering? :lol:
Now, for a contrasting view......(queueing up KC, for his standard rant on intercooler hoses. :p )
-Steve
[B]Quick one---
Does this-------
B.Alternate air cleaner enclosures up to carburetor or throttle body. This does not allow any changes to intercoolers.
mean NO INTERCOOLER HOSES???? I.E. Samco Silicon Hoses [/B][/QUOTE]
Personally, I think the intercooler hoses MIGHT be legal. However, there have been differing, conflicting views from various STAC members. I guess we won't know for sure, until some guinea pig gets protested. You volunteering? :lol:
Now, for a contrasting view......(queueing up KC, for his standard rant on intercooler hoses. :p )
-Steve
| ChrisW | 06-26-2003 08:58 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by wrx2.0 555 [/i]
[B]Quick one---
Does this-------
B.Alternate air cleaner enclosures up to carburetor or throttle body. This does not allow any changes to intercoolers.
mean NO INTERCOOLER HOSES???? I.E. Samco Silicon Hoses [/B][/QUOTE]
absolutely no intercooler hoses allowed. In fact, nothing past the turbo can be touched. You can change the air inlet hose (between the MAF sensor and turbo.
[B]Quick one---
Does this-------
B.Alternate air cleaner enclosures up to carburetor or throttle body. This does not allow any changes to intercoolers.
mean NO INTERCOOLER HOSES???? I.E. Samco Silicon Hoses [/B][/QUOTE]
absolutely no intercooler hoses allowed. In fact, nothing past the turbo can be touched. You can change the air inlet hose (between the MAF sensor and turbo.
| wrx2.0 555 | 06-26-2003 10:58 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ChrisW [/i]
[B]absolutely no intercooler hoses allowed. In fact, nothing past the turbo can be touched. You can change the air inlet hose (between the MAF sensor and turbo. [/B][/QUOTE]
No offense, but I dont buy it. The rule says "up to the throttle body" so that would include the intercooler hoses.
It is obvious by the rule itself, that it pretains to turbo cars, so by the very nature of design, that statement would HAVE to include the intercooler hoses.
I will be happy to be the guinea pig. Until its specified otherwise in writting, of course.:D
Scott
[B]absolutely no intercooler hoses allowed. In fact, nothing past the turbo can be touched. You can change the air inlet hose (between the MAF sensor and turbo. [/B][/QUOTE]
No offense, but I dont buy it. The rule says "up to the throttle body" so that would include the intercooler hoses.
It is obvious by the rule itself, that it pretains to turbo cars, so by the very nature of design, that statement would HAVE to include the intercooler hoses.
I will be happy to be the guinea pig. Until its specified otherwise in writting, of course.:D
Scott
| ChrisW | 06-27-2003 12:02 AM |
Your answer lies in the service manual.
[IMG]http://www.subaruparts.com/subaru.diag/5A/i072-1.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.subaruparts.com/subaru.diag/5A/i072-101.gif[/IMG]
Since the service manual includes the part #14462 in the intercooler assembly, no upgraded IC hoses allowed.
[i]IF[/i] the service manual allowed the replacement with some other factory peice to fit some performance parameter, then you would have an arguement.
[IMG]http://www.subaruparts.com/subaru.diag/5A/i072-1.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.subaruparts.com/subaru.diag/5A/i072-101.gif[/IMG]
Since the service manual includes the part #14462 in the intercooler assembly, no upgraded IC hoses allowed.
[i]IF[/i] the service manual allowed the replacement with some other factory peice to fit some performance parameter, then you would have an arguement.
| wrx2.0 555 | 06-27-2003 08:04 AM |
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| wrx2.0 555 | 06-27-2003 09:17 AM |
Alrighty then....
Per the parts manager at Subaru of Jacksonville,
the Intercooler is part#21820-AA186 and
the y-pipe is part #14462-AA222
They are NOT sold as an "assembly", assuming that was your usage of the word, Chris.
Im not sure what your intention was with the word "assembly".
These are two seperate parts with two seperate part numbers sold individually.
Now, please understand I DO realize I may be completely off track with this. But for the moment, this is how I preceive the arguement.
The rule states "up to the throttle body". This CANNOT be subject to interpretation. You would have a million different opinions, like we do now. It MUST be black and white or taken literally, if you will, until otherwise specified.
There are specific rules stating we cannot change the intercooler and specific rules stating we cannot change the turbo, so this "up to the throttle body" statement has to be taken literal as well.
Scott
Per the parts manager at Subaru of Jacksonville,
the Intercooler is part#21820-AA186 and
the y-pipe is part #14462-AA222
They are NOT sold as an "assembly", assuming that was your usage of the word, Chris.
Im not sure what your intention was with the word "assembly".
These are two seperate parts with two seperate part numbers sold individually.
Now, please understand I DO realize I may be completely off track with this. But for the moment, this is how I preceive the arguement.
The rule states "up to the throttle body". This CANNOT be subject to interpretation. You would have a million different opinions, like we do now. It MUST be black and white or taken literally, if you will, until otherwise specified.
There are specific rules stating we cannot change the intercooler and specific rules stating we cannot change the turbo, so this "up to the throttle body" statement has to be taken literal as well.
Scott
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