| Davenow | 03-24-2004 08:23 PM |
Trackwhores, AM I going to die? And how many laps will it take?
�
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ON Axxis Ultimates ...
I have picked up a couple bottles of Motul 600, but I know those are more of an autocross pad.
2002 wrx, stock calipers and rotors.
I have picked up a couple bottles of Motul 600, but I know those are more of an autocross pad.
2002 wrx, stock calipers and rotors.
| WRXedUSA | 03-24-2004 08:47 PM |
Good the goodridges too dawg. You are on the right path.
| totoherbs | 03-24-2004 08:58 PM |
Just remember the brake pedal is on the far right side...
| Davenow | 03-24-2004 09:00 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by totoherbs [/i]
[B]Just remember the brake pedal is on the far right side... [/B][/QUOTE] :lol:
I was just worried about the pads fading out since they are SUPER grippy, even when mostly cold.
[B]Just remember the brake pedal is on the far right side... [/B][/QUOTE] :lol:
I was just worried about the pads fading out since they are SUPER grippy, even when mostly cold.
| HoRo1 | 03-24-2004 09:01 PM |
I did a weekend at Streets of Willow with Ultimates. They finished up smeared all over my (StopTech) rotors after a (short) time. You'll probably survive if you aren't racing. Just don't go all out lap after lap - give the brakes time to cool down but you should still be prepared for problems.
| Patrick Olsen | 03-24-2004 11:24 PM |
I did track events at VIR and Summit Point in my sister's WRX wagon with Mintex 1155s and Panther Plus pads. Both faded horribly, but it very well may have been fluid fade. Very long pedal after a few hot laps, but it was still manageable. Her car came home in one piece, so you should be fine. :)
Pat Olsen
'97 Legacy 2.5GT sedan
Pat Olsen
'97 Legacy 2.5GT sedan
| WRXedUSA | 03-25-2004 01:19 AM |
The fluid is the issue here really (as long as you dont go all out on each lap)
Take it easy, and as said before, let them cool down.
The Motul will do you good.
Take it easy, and as said before, let them cool down.
The Motul will do you good.
| ellisnc | 03-25-2004 07:10 AM |
Why spend money on a track day if you know your brake pads aren't going to work correctly? I mean, the Ultimates are a known quantity on the track and they are known to not hold up very well at all. In the front anyway.
Call up Tire Rack and order some HP+ for the front which is the easy way out. They'll have them to you in a couple days.
Call up Tire Rack and order some HP+ for the front which is the easy way out. They'll have them to you in a couple days.
| GQ | 03-25-2004 08:51 AM |
The Axxis Ultimates will work fine, especially if this is your first track day. Be more concerned with a brake flush/ bleed and use a good DOT 4 fluid such as Valvoline Syn, or better.
Rob
Rob
| elgorey | 03-25-2004 11:01 PM |
^ What Rob said.
I used Ultimates on my first 2 track weekends (many many moon ago...)
one of which was one of the hardest tracks on brakes in the country. Didnt fade them at all. (were a nice shade of burnt orange when I did take them off though... :-p )
Of course when you get faster and learn to brake much harder, you will need a race purpose pad. When you get to that point call up carbotech and they will take care of that.
I used Ultimates on my first 2 track weekends (many many moon ago...)
one of which was one of the hardest tracks on brakes in the country. Didnt fade them at all. (were a nice shade of burnt orange when I did take them off though... :-p )
Of course when you get faster and learn to brake much harder, you will need a race purpose pad. When you get to that point call up carbotech and they will take care of that.
| elgorey | 03-25-2004 11:03 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ellisnc [/i]
[B]Call up Tire Rack and order some HP+ for the front which is the easy way out. They'll have them to you in a couple days. [/B][/QUOTE]
Ultimates are superior to HP+ in every way, including racetrack use.
HP+ are a street pad just like the Ultimates, but dont have as high an operating range.
[B]Call up Tire Rack and order some HP+ for the front which is the easy way out. They'll have them to you in a couple days. [/B][/QUOTE]
Ultimates are superior to HP+ in every way, including racetrack use.
HP+ are a street pad just like the Ultimates, but dont have as high an operating range.
| PaulC | 03-25-2004 11:23 PM |
In my experience, while you can get by on street pads, you'll have a lot more fun on race pads.
The Carbotech Panther Plus are pretty nice. I drove two cars back to back on Streets of Willow once, the one with better brakes in general had Ultimates and the one that was 12 years older had the Panthers. I was amazed at how much better the Panthers were.
The Carbotech Panther Plus are pretty nice. I drove two cars back to back on Streets of Willow once, the one with better brakes in general had Ultimates and the one that was 12 years older had the Panthers. I was amazed at how much better the Panthers were.
| ellisnc | 03-25-2004 11:31 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by elgorey [/i]
[B]Ultimates are superior to HP+ in every way, including racetrack use.
HP+ are a street pad just like the Ultimates, but dont have as high an operating range. [/B][/QUOTE]
haha... good one :lol: Maybe you're thinking of HPS...
Go ahead and use the Ultimate on the front and melt them, I don't care.
[B]Ultimates are superior to HP+ in every way, including racetrack use.
HP+ are a street pad just like the Ultimates, but dont have as high an operating range. [/B][/QUOTE]
haha... good one :lol: Maybe you're thinking of HPS...
Go ahead and use the Ultimate on the front and melt them, I don't care.
| GimmeScoobySnacks | 03-26-2004 12:07 AM |
I just got done using ultimates with DBA 4000 rotors at Buttonwillow and RBF 600 and didnt have any problems at all. You will die on the way to the track or on the way back from the track, but not at the track. Have fun, and when you lose control remember: YOU ARE NOT PETTER SOLBERG!!!!
| elgorey | 03-26-2004 08:37 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ellisnc [/i]
[B]haha... good one :lol: Maybe you're thinking of HPS...[/quote]
Nope. Maybe [i]you[/i] are thinking of Hawk blues.
Right on the Hawk Website, under [B]Street[/b] Compounds. There it is, Hawk HP+. "This compound was designed for the serious street and autocross enthusiast. "
Last year I was flagging an HPDE and I had to help dig out a nice 996 911 out of the gravel trap because his HP+ faded away to nothing.
[quote]Go ahead and use the Ultimate on the front and melt them, I don't care. [/B][/QUOTE]
I have used the Ultimates on track, at one of the hardest braking tracks in the country (Larry from Carbotech's words, not mine) and they did just fine. My miata loves them, and havent faded them once.
So how about some data points to back up [i]your[/i] claims?
A sweeping statement with nothing to back it up wont get you far here.
Bottom line, they are a great novice level brake pad for the money.
If you have a little extra $ then by all means call up Carbotech for some Panther+ and you will get a much better pad no doubt, but the Ultimates will do fine your first couple days on track.
[B]haha... good one :lol: Maybe you're thinking of HPS...[/quote]
Nope. Maybe [i]you[/i] are thinking of Hawk blues.
Right on the Hawk Website, under [B]Street[/b] Compounds. There it is, Hawk HP+. "This compound was designed for the serious street and autocross enthusiast. "
Last year I was flagging an HPDE and I had to help dig out a nice 996 911 out of the gravel trap because his HP+ faded away to nothing.
[quote]Go ahead and use the Ultimate on the front and melt them, I don't care. [/B][/QUOTE]
I have used the Ultimates on track, at one of the hardest braking tracks in the country (Larry from Carbotech's words, not mine) and they did just fine. My miata loves them, and havent faded them once.
So how about some data points to back up [i]your[/i] claims?
A sweeping statement with nothing to back it up wont get you far here.
Bottom line, they are a great novice level brake pad for the money.
If you have a little extra $ then by all means call up Carbotech for some Panther+ and you will get a much better pad no doubt, but the Ultimates will do fine your first couple days on track.
| GQ | 03-26-2004 09:01 AM |
The fact is that he already has the Ultimates, and he wants some reassurance as to the pads ability. The Ultimate's coupled with the Motul fluid will work just fine for his first few track event's. Regardless, an experienced driver could use these pads, knowing how to make the best of what he has.
As Evan said, call up Carbotech when it is time to upgrade. The Panther Plus and XP's are awesome.
Rob
As Evan said, call up Carbotech when it is time to upgrade. The Panther Plus and XP's are awesome.
Rob
| Ryan | 03-26-2004 09:05 AM |
What Evan said...
Ultimates are a great pad. Cheap, good bite and you can dish out alot of abuse on them without any worries. For your first few events you are not going to be as hard on the brakes, so as a beginner student there are no issues whatsoever with Ultimates, even on a heavy car.
HP+ are a better autocross pad IMO - they bite a bit better, but they make a lot more noise when cold and alot more dust though. I instructed a student in a 2nd gen RX7 (non turbo) with HP+ and they did fine all weekend, and would get a slight bit of fade in a long session on VIR North course.
You cant make blanket statments of "this pad sucks you'll melt them". I'm sure some drivers will get by fine on Hawk HPS on track and others will fade XP9's. I really dont know where you're pulling this from.
Ultimates are a great pad. Cheap, good bite and you can dish out alot of abuse on them without any worries. For your first few events you are not going to be as hard on the brakes, so as a beginner student there are no issues whatsoever with Ultimates, even on a heavy car.
HP+ are a better autocross pad IMO - they bite a bit better, but they make a lot more noise when cold and alot more dust though. I instructed a student in a 2nd gen RX7 (non turbo) with HP+ and they did fine all weekend, and would get a slight bit of fade in a long session on VIR North course.
You cant make blanket statments of "this pad sucks you'll melt them". I'm sure some drivers will get by fine on Hawk HPS on track and others will fade XP9's. I really dont know where you're pulling this from.
| sdecker | 03-26-2004 09:42 AM |
Davenow:
You're not hurting yourself at all by using Motul RBF600.
WRT the Ultimates, you'll be OK for your first track day or two, most likely. I ran them on stock brakes with Motul and Stoptech lines for my first couple of track days. They did indeed have a lot of pad fade.
The good news is that they don't fade all at once. They progressively fade, if that makes sense. You'll know when they are really gone, so back off and get 'em cooled back down for a while.
At Road Atlanta with a rookie driver (me) I could usually go 4-5 laps before fade was really bad. This was on street tires, not R compounds. R compounds would have faded them even earlier...
You will also likely find them to be crumbled due to heat after the event, so plan to have an extra set handy if you decide to stay with them.
Personally, I would not use or recommend Ultimates for the track...but that's not your question. You *should* be fine for your first track day or two, but you will want to look for a different pad after that, I bet.
Scott
You're not hurting yourself at all by using Motul RBF600.
WRT the Ultimates, you'll be OK for your first track day or two, most likely. I ran them on stock brakes with Motul and Stoptech lines for my first couple of track days. They did indeed have a lot of pad fade.
The good news is that they don't fade all at once. They progressively fade, if that makes sense. You'll know when they are really gone, so back off and get 'em cooled back down for a while.
At Road Atlanta with a rookie driver (me) I could usually go 4-5 laps before fade was really bad. This was on street tires, not R compounds. R compounds would have faded them even earlier...
You will also likely find them to be crumbled due to heat after the event, so plan to have an extra set handy if you decide to stay with them.
Personally, I would not use or recommend Ultimates for the track...but that's not your question. You *should* be fine for your first track day or two, but you will want to look for a different pad after that, I bet.
Scott
| NotAnRS | 03-26-2004 01:34 PM |
I run a similiar weight Audi GT at race speeds with Hawk Blues. They are a wonderful pad, and have [I]vastly[/I] improved the braking. They do [I]not[/I] fade, even on a short track like BeaveRun. They will destroy your rotors eventually, however, but that's an acceptable cost for being able to go deep into a turn. :D
| Ryan | 03-26-2004 01:40 PM |
The dust from hawk blues will also ruin the finish on your wheels and your paint if you get any of the dust on it.
Good pads, but there are pads available now that stop just as well but do not chew up rotors or have corrosive dust.
Good pads, but there are pads available now that stop just as well but do not chew up rotors or have corrosive dust.
| ellisnc | 03-26-2004 07:21 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by elgorey [/i]
[B]Nope. Maybe [i]you[/i] are thinking of Hawk blues.
Right on the Hawk Website, under [B]Street[/b] Compounds. There it is, Hawk HP+. "This compound was designed for the serious street and autocross enthusiast. "
Last year I was flagging an HPDE and I had to help dig out a nice 996 911 out of the gravel trap because his HP+ faded away to nothing.
I have used the Ultimates on track, at one of the hardest braking tracks in the country (Larry from Carbotech's words, not mine) and they did just fine. My miata loves them, and havent faded them once.
So how about some data points to back up [i]your[/i] claims?
A sweeping statement with nothing to back it up wont get you far here.
Bottom line, they are a great novice level brake pad for the money.
If you have a little extra $ then by all means call up Carbotech for some Panther+ and you will get a much better pad no doubt, but the Ultimates will do fine your first couple days on track. [/B][/QUOTE]
Everything I've heard about Ultimates up until this thread says they've been NG on a track. I've used the HP+ on a track and they were fine for a while but eventually when I started going deeper into the braking zone they had some fade which would be fine for a newbie.
If you read about the HP+ compound, the description says it's good for short intervals up to 600C which I don't read about the Ultimate compound. The 600C sounds like the Panther + compound to me and a more capable pad than the Bobcat, HPS, and Ultimate which I put in and around the same league of heat ranges (~500C)
This thread is the first time I've heard anyone say the Ultimate is fine on the track. There are several cases of people taking the Stoptech brake kit to the track with the Ultimates it comes with and smoking the pads there. Why would I use something in conditions that more than a few other people have known them to fail?
If your Miata is stock it's probably a 2200 pound automobile with no power. It is not even in the same league as a WRX in terms of tire width, vehicle weight, or braking zone speed. It's like me saying I can get away with HP+ on my WRX which may be in the same league as Ultimate and then saying I can use the same pad on a Z06 or 911 which is a faster car with more power and more weight.
[url]http://www.fast44.com/hpstandtrpa.html[/url]
[url]http://www.ltbmotorsport.com/hawkbrakepads.html[/url]
Anyway, do what you want...
[B]Nope. Maybe [i]you[/i] are thinking of Hawk blues.
Right on the Hawk Website, under [B]Street[/b] Compounds. There it is, Hawk HP+. "This compound was designed for the serious street and autocross enthusiast. "
Last year I was flagging an HPDE and I had to help dig out a nice 996 911 out of the gravel trap because his HP+ faded away to nothing.
I have used the Ultimates on track, at one of the hardest braking tracks in the country (Larry from Carbotech's words, not mine) and they did just fine. My miata loves them, and havent faded them once.
So how about some data points to back up [i]your[/i] claims?
A sweeping statement with nothing to back it up wont get you far here.
Bottom line, they are a great novice level brake pad for the money.
If you have a little extra $ then by all means call up Carbotech for some Panther+ and you will get a much better pad no doubt, but the Ultimates will do fine your first couple days on track. [/B][/QUOTE]
Everything I've heard about Ultimates up until this thread says they've been NG on a track. I've used the HP+ on a track and they were fine for a while but eventually when I started going deeper into the braking zone they had some fade which would be fine for a newbie.
If you read about the HP+ compound, the description says it's good for short intervals up to 600C which I don't read about the Ultimate compound. The 600C sounds like the Panther + compound to me and a more capable pad than the Bobcat, HPS, and Ultimate which I put in and around the same league of heat ranges (~500C)
This thread is the first time I've heard anyone say the Ultimate is fine on the track. There are several cases of people taking the Stoptech brake kit to the track with the Ultimates it comes with and smoking the pads there. Why would I use something in conditions that more than a few other people have known them to fail?
If your Miata is stock it's probably a 2200 pound automobile with no power. It is not even in the same league as a WRX in terms of tire width, vehicle weight, or braking zone speed. It's like me saying I can get away with HP+ on my WRX which may be in the same league as Ultimate and then saying I can use the same pad on a Z06 or 911 which is a faster car with more power and more weight.
[url]http://www.fast44.com/hpstandtrpa.html[/url]
[url]http://www.ltbmotorsport.com/hawkbrakepads.html[/url]
Anyway, do what you want...
| sdecker | 03-26-2004 08:47 PM |
Just to be clear:
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by sdecker [/i]
[B]Personally, I would not use or recommend Ultimates for the track...but that's not your question. You *should* be fine for your first track day or two, but you will want to look for a different pad after that, I bet.
Scott [/B][/QUOTE]
I have used the Ultimates on the track, but I don't recommend them nor do I plan to ever use them again -- for any reason.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by sdecker [/i]
[B]Personally, I would not use or recommend Ultimates for the track...but that's not your question. You *should* be fine for your first track day or two, but you will want to look for a different pad after that, I bet.
Scott [/B][/QUOTE]
I have used the Ultimates on the track, but I don't recommend them nor do I plan to ever use them again -- for any reason.
| WRX-ECE | 03-27-2004 06:26 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ellisnc [/i]
[B]...same league as Ultimate and then saying I can use the same pad on a Z06 or 911 which is a faster car with more power and more weight.
Anyway, do what you want... [/B][/QUOTE]
From Subaru.com: 2004 Impreza WRX 3085lbs
From Porsche website: 2004 911 Carrera Coupe 3020lbs (-65lbs)
From Yahoo Auto: 2004 Corvette Z06 3116lbs (+31lbs)
Basically the same weight...
[B]...same league as Ultimate and then saying I can use the same pad on a Z06 or 911 which is a faster car with more power and more weight.
Anyway, do what you want... [/B][/QUOTE]
From Subaru.com: 2004 Impreza WRX 3085lbs
From Porsche website: 2004 911 Carrera Coupe 3020lbs (-65lbs)
From Yahoo Auto: 2004 Corvette Z06 3116lbs (+31lbs)
Basically the same weight...
| 8Complex | 03-27-2004 09:04 PM |
I would have to assume Axxis Ultimates suck for track use because I can't even use them on the street without fading them so bad that I can barely make corners.
(note: following incident is in abondoned business disctrict roads, no cuddley kittens were harmed in the course of this incident) I literally braked hard into one corner, back up to the top of third, braked hard for another, back up to the middle of third ... and nothing! I was very lucky to actually make the corner. I drove around the block a few times nice and slow without using the brakes just to let them cool down before I actually shut the car down for fear of warping the rotors.
When I had Mintex 1155's on the car, this wouldn't happen. Call me crazy, but this is the last time I am ever going to roll on cheap "race" pads. :-/
(note: following incident is in abondoned business disctrict roads, no cuddley kittens were harmed in the course of this incident) I literally braked hard into one corner, back up to the top of third, braked hard for another, back up to the middle of third ... and nothing! I was very lucky to actually make the corner. I drove around the block a few times nice and slow without using the brakes just to let them cool down before I actually shut the car down for fear of warping the rotors.
When I had Mintex 1155's on the car, this wouldn't happen. Call me crazy, but this is the last time I am ever going to roll on cheap "race" pads. :-/
| sdecker | 03-27-2004 10:42 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by 8Complex [/i]
[B]... but this is the last time I am ever going to roll on cheap "race" pads. :-/ [/B][/QUOTE]
:lol:
'race' my ass.
:lol:
[B]... but this is the last time I am ever going to roll on cheap "race" pads. :-/ [/B][/QUOTE]
:lol:
'race' my ass.
:lol:
| CyC | 03-27-2004 10:56 PM |
8Complex: What kind of brake fluid was that with?
| ellisnc | 03-28-2004 05:52 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by WRX-ECE [/i]
[B]From Subaru.com: 2004 Impreza WRX 3085lbs
From Porsche website: 2004 911 Carrera Coupe 3020lbs (-65lbs)
From Yahoo Auto: 2004 Corvette Z06 3116lbs (+31lbs)
Basically the same weight... [/B][/QUOTE]
My WRX: 2830lbs
911 (+190lbs)
Z06 (+286lbs)
[B]From Subaru.com: 2004 Impreza WRX 3085lbs
From Porsche website: 2004 911 Carrera Coupe 3020lbs (-65lbs)
From Yahoo Auto: 2004 Corvette Z06 3116lbs (+31lbs)
Basically the same weight... [/B][/QUOTE]
My WRX: 2830lbs
911 (+190lbs)
Z06 (+286lbs)
| MK19_ | 03-28-2004 05:54 AM |
I am a fan of the Motul RBF600... I have tracked before without it and talk about boiling off... The boiling points of the Motul give me much safer piece of mind. As far as the pads go, I never tracked the Axxis pads when I had a set. Post your results and a few pics too.
| ellisnc | 03-28-2004 05:59 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by sdecker [/i]
[B]:lol:
'race' my ass.
:lol: [/B][/QUOTE]
On a related note, I tried out the Cobalt VR spec 'race' pads in Stoptech calipers yesterday and once you get them up to temperature you better have heated race tires on the car because it'd probably be instant ABS with anything else. I can say that really they didn't stop the car too bad when they were cold either. Should be fine to drive to and from the track on if some of you were looking for an all out 'race' pad :)
I actually want to see if I can try the car with the ABS fuse unplugged today and see if I'm actually getting lockup or if the ABS is confused by the initial bite.
[B]:lol:
'race' my ass.
:lol: [/B][/QUOTE]
On a related note, I tried out the Cobalt VR spec 'race' pads in Stoptech calipers yesterday and once you get them up to temperature you better have heated race tires on the car because it'd probably be instant ABS with anything else. I can say that really they didn't stop the car too bad when they were cold either. Should be fine to drive to and from the track on if some of you were looking for an all out 'race' pad :)
I actually want to see if I can try the car with the ABS fuse unplugged today and see if I'm actually getting lockup or if the ABS is confused by the initial bite.
| 8Complex | 03-28-2004 04:48 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by CyC[/i]
[B] 8Complex: What kind of brake fluid was that with? [/B][/QUOTE]
I had Motul RBF 600 in there. The pedal didn't go to the floor, there was just zero friction. I know I ate quite a few miles off of those rotors just to make that turn. :-/
[B] 8Complex: What kind of brake fluid was that with? [/B][/QUOTE]
I had Motul RBF 600 in there. The pedal didn't go to the floor, there was just zero friction. I know I ate quite a few miles off of those rotors just to make that turn. :-/
| CyC | 03-28-2004 07:38 PM |
I just put ultimates in my car a few weeks ago :( I guess I just have to change out the fronts when I go to the track to make the best of it?
| ellisnc | 03-28-2004 08:03 PM |
That's what we're saying...
Some here disagree, go find out for yourself if you're feeling adventurous.
Now that I've felt what dedicated track pads feel like there's no way I'd go back to some compromise pad. Personally, if I were doing street driving I'd just get the lowest dust pad possible and switch to track pads when I was going to the track. It's like when you try to track street tires. Sure they work, but they overheat easily and generally get thrashed unless you shave them first.
Anyway, just my final $0.02
Some here disagree, go find out for yourself if you're feeling adventurous.
Now that I've felt what dedicated track pads feel like there's no way I'd go back to some compromise pad. Personally, if I were doing street driving I'd just get the lowest dust pad possible and switch to track pads when I was going to the track. It's like when you try to track street tires. Sure they work, but they overheat easily and generally get thrashed unless you shave them first.
Anyway, just my final $0.02
| 8Complex | 03-29-2004 12:03 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by CyC[/i]
[B] I just put ultimates in my car a few weeks ago :( I guess I just have to change out the fronts when I go to the track to make the best of it? [/B][/QUOTE]
It really depends on how hard you drive. I drive [b]VERY[/b] hard, and am also very heavy on my brakes when I am driving hard.
At the same time, I'm very easy on my brakes for easy daily driving... I made a set of slotted front rotors and Mintex 1155's last over 40k miles before I had to replace them both.
[B] I just put ultimates in my car a few weeks ago :( I guess I just have to change out the fronts when I go to the track to make the best of it? [/B][/QUOTE]
It really depends on how hard you drive. I drive [b]VERY[/b] hard, and am also very heavy on my brakes when I am driving hard.
At the same time, I'm very easy on my brakes for easy daily driving... I made a set of slotted front rotors and Mintex 1155's last over 40k miles before I had to replace them both.
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