| ScreaminFast | 02-09-2005 03:18 PM |
Autopower vs. custom cage for SM AutoX / HPDE
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Hey all,
I think i've decided that a cage is in order, but I wanted to get you opinion on which route to go. If I went the autopower route, I'd have all the bolt points welded to the car to reinforce them.
I also know that a cage is not something to skimp on money with, so I totally understand that. Also, my car is only driven on the street to and from autocrosses and the local shows to promote my company. Thanks for any help in advance!
I think i've decided that a cage is in order, but I wanted to get you opinion on which route to go. If I went the autopower route, I'd have all the bolt points welded to the car to reinforce them.
I also know that a cage is not something to skimp on money with, so I totally understand that. Also, my car is only driven on the street to and from autocrosses and the local shows to promote my company. Thanks for any help in advance!
| dwx | 02-09-2005 05:38 PM |
For what kind of Impreza? If you want a cage welded in, get a cage that's meant to be welded in. Bolt-in cages aren't bad safety wise, Safety Devices makes bolt in cages that are legal for FIA rally use. Autopower makes weld in and bolt in cages as well that I believe are legal for road race use. As for a custom cage, it all depends who is doing it, just make sure they have experience building cages for whatever racing you want to do.
As for SM class, I took out my autopower roll bar cuz the damn thing weighs so much.
As for SM class, I took out my autopower roll bar cuz the damn thing weighs so much.
| Element Tuning | 02-09-2005 05:58 PM |
The Autopower bolt in cage is the same one we used in our Time Attack car. At the time I thought this would be a good idea as I was contemplating selling the car. It honestly fit so well (very snug) we could have just welded it in. It appears they just cut a fully assembled cage and provide sleeves. Holes were not even drilled through the tubing or sleeves, just the base.
I was really surprised how well it fit given the price but in retrospect I may have opted for a weld in cage but bolt in door braces.
Here are some pics:
[IMG]http://www.elementtuning.com/DSC00594.JPG[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.elementtuning.com/DSC00583.JPG[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.elementtuning.com/DSC00596.JPG[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.elementtuning.com/DSC00581.JPG[/IMG]
If this is going to be a stripped race car a custom cage could be built better.
Thanks,
Phil
[url]www.elementtuning.com[/url]
I was really surprised how well it fit given the price but in retrospect I may have opted for a weld in cage but bolt in door braces.
Here are some pics:
[IMG]http://www.elementtuning.com/DSC00594.JPG[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.elementtuning.com/DSC00583.JPG[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.elementtuning.com/DSC00596.JPG[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.elementtuning.com/DSC00581.JPG[/IMG]
If this is going to be a stripped race car a custom cage could be built better.
Thanks,
Phil
[url]www.elementtuning.com[/url]
| ScreaminFast | 02-09-2005 06:01 PM |
Its a 2003 WRX. I'm looking for something that will be light. A few of the places that are local here in Albany, can do a custom cage for around $1200 - $1400, but i'm not sure if it would be certified, etc.
| Chaste Automotive | 02-09-2005 06:02 PM |
If you want a cage get a custom cages cage they are engineered and the best along with safety devices. You know that you are protected. IF you want something that looks like a cage get an autopower. I mean an auto power kind of serves a purpose but you do not want ot have aserious crash with one in. One major problem with those cages is that they give the driver a false sense of security.
| ScreaminFast | 02-09-2005 06:07 PM |
phil, this is mike that you talked to this morning about a sponsorship ;)
Do you have any pics of the cage with the door bars installed?
Do you have any pics of the cage with the door bars installed?
| Rexfan | 02-09-2005 06:13 PM |
I think a bolt-in Autopower 4 point roll bar is a nice safety feature. If your driving it once in while, getting in and out of the car will be much easier. If you plan on track days, the added safety and rigidity of a full cage is the way to go IMO.
| ScreaminFast | 02-09-2005 06:15 PM |
does anyone know if the one from primitive racing is any good?
[url]http://www.writerguy.com/primitive/misc.htm[/url]
[url]http://www.writerguy.com/primitive/misc.htm[/url]
| Element Tuning | 02-09-2005 06:34 PM |
[QUOTE=ScreaminFast]phil, this is mike that you talked to this morning about a sponsorship ;)
Do you have any pics of the cage with the door bars installed?[/QUOTE]
Mike,
This is the only picture I have with the door braces in:
[IMG]http://www.elementtuning.com/GarySheehan1.JPG[/IMG]
I've seen plenty of custom cages but this cage is also a "REAL" cage and can be built on top of. We may extend the cage to the front strut area, connect the rear strut area, and add a diagonal cross bar to the back section. While I wouldn't want to do 10 flips in a rally car with this cage it is not a "show" cage. It will certainly add safety to anyone that runs HPDE type events.
Thanks,
Phil
[url]www.elementtuning.com[/url]
Do you have any pics of the cage with the door bars installed?[/QUOTE]
Mike,
This is the only picture I have with the door braces in:
[IMG]http://www.elementtuning.com/GarySheehan1.JPG[/IMG]
I've seen plenty of custom cages but this cage is also a "REAL" cage and can be built on top of. We may extend the cage to the front strut area, connect the rear strut area, and add a diagonal cross bar to the back section. While I wouldn't want to do 10 flips in a rally car with this cage it is not a "show" cage. It will certainly add safety to anyone that runs HPDE type events.
Thanks,
Phil
[url]www.elementtuning.com[/url]
| Safe Drives | 02-10-2005 02:06 AM |
Hi ScreaminFast,
Let me just say that you are very smart indeed to be asking questions and considering a cage for your car. Thumbs up.
We at Safe Drives LLC are auto safety product specialists and we offer a couple of roll cage kits for your cars. In fact we have no less than six roll cage kit manufacturers that we represent. :cool:
The Autopower product is, for the money, a very good product. I agree with Element Tuning's opinion 100%. Here is a guy that has the Autopower bolt in kit and has provided first hand experience with it. It is a kit that was originally designed for the SCCA rulebook requirements but is still very livable on a daily basis. It is not a cage that you want to trust your life to in every situation as our friend from Chaste points out. Again, for the money it's a good product.
For a cage that you can trust your life to in any situation you really need to look into a cage that has been tested and certified for serious competition. Take a look at the difference in the design of these cages.
Autopower:[img]http://safedrives.com/prodimages/autopower/apcages_lg.gif[/img]
Custom Cages UK kits:
[img]http://safedrives.com/prodimages/customcages/cccage4_lg.jpg[/img]
So I think it is pretty clear which kit will protect you best.:cool:
The Custom Cages UK kits shown in the second picture are available in FIA certificated spec or in a SCCA / NASA club racing spec. They cost less than you think too. GD kits start $1009 shipped so this can be a real nice option that does not have to break the bank but it does require professional installation.
Don't forget paint... Painting a cage can be a real pain. A huge benefit of the Autopower Bolt in kit is that is does come painted. So for less than $700 bucks you can have a six point roll cage that comes painted and is great for the DIY installer. For a street car that does occasional track days and some back road barn storming the Autopower product is nice.
Now if we're talking GC body cars then you really need to look at the Safety Devices product because it is NICE and they know how to engineer a bolt in kit. Check it out:
[img]http://safedrives.com/prodimages/safetydevices/subaru2drbolt/Q83S005_sm.jpg[/img]
[img]http://safedrives.com/prodimages/safetydevices/subaru2drbolt/Q83S006_sm.jpg[/img]
Anyway thanks for your time and I hope this thread helps folks for years to come.:cool:
We have all of these products and more available from best safety product manufacturers in the world. All we do is sell auto safety related products so feel free to call us or PM.
Kind regards,
Charles
[url="http://www.safedrives.com"]www.safedrives.com[/url]
Let me just say that you are very smart indeed to be asking questions and considering a cage for your car. Thumbs up.
We at Safe Drives LLC are auto safety product specialists and we offer a couple of roll cage kits for your cars. In fact we have no less than six roll cage kit manufacturers that we represent. :cool:
The Autopower product is, for the money, a very good product. I agree with Element Tuning's opinion 100%. Here is a guy that has the Autopower bolt in kit and has provided first hand experience with it. It is a kit that was originally designed for the SCCA rulebook requirements but is still very livable on a daily basis. It is not a cage that you want to trust your life to in every situation as our friend from Chaste points out. Again, for the money it's a good product.
For a cage that you can trust your life to in any situation you really need to look into a cage that has been tested and certified for serious competition. Take a look at the difference in the design of these cages.
Autopower:[img]http://safedrives.com/prodimages/autopower/apcages_lg.gif[/img]
Custom Cages UK kits:
[img]http://safedrives.com/prodimages/customcages/cccage4_lg.jpg[/img]
So I think it is pretty clear which kit will protect you best.:cool:
The Custom Cages UK kits shown in the second picture are available in FIA certificated spec or in a SCCA / NASA club racing spec. They cost less than you think too. GD kits start $1009 shipped so this can be a real nice option that does not have to break the bank but it does require professional installation.
Don't forget paint... Painting a cage can be a real pain. A huge benefit of the Autopower Bolt in kit is that is does come painted. So for less than $700 bucks you can have a six point roll cage that comes painted and is great for the DIY installer. For a street car that does occasional track days and some back road barn storming the Autopower product is nice.
Now if we're talking GC body cars then you really need to look at the Safety Devices product because it is NICE and they know how to engineer a bolt in kit. Check it out:
[img]http://safedrives.com/prodimages/safetydevices/subaru2drbolt/Q83S005_sm.jpg[/img]
[img]http://safedrives.com/prodimages/safetydevices/subaru2drbolt/Q83S006_sm.jpg[/img]
Anyway thanks for your time and I hope this thread helps folks for years to come.:cool:
We have all of these products and more available from best safety product manufacturers in the world. All we do is sell auto safety related products so feel free to call us or PM.
Kind regards,
Charles
[url="http://www.safedrives.com"]www.safedrives.com[/url]
| Flyn'Rex | 02-10-2005 02:48 AM |
^ ordered 4 point sport cage (harness bar too) and just waitin on delivery. Great people to deal with.
| ScreaminFast | 02-10-2005 09:39 AM |
thanks for the info charles!
It looks like right now that the autopower is the best bet. The Custom Cages UK one is real nice too. You have it for $1900, but what do you think an install on that would cost? Also, I think I'd have my autopower one painted white, anyways, heheh. :)
It looks like right now that the autopower is the best bet. The Custom Cages UK one is real nice too. You have it for $1900, but what do you think an install on that would cost? Also, I think I'd have my autopower one painted white, anyways, heheh. :)
| Safe Drives | 02-10-2005 02:55 PM |
[QUOTE=ScreaminFast]thanks for the info charles!
It looks like right now that the autopower is the best bet. The Custom Cages UK one is real nice too. You have it for $1900, but what do you think an install on that would cost? Also, I think I'd have my autopower one painted white, anyways, heheh. :)[/QUOTE]
No problem! I'm glad I can help.
FYI though, the custom cages kits start at $1009 for the GD kit, not $1900. $1900 is the price for the latest design Prodrive style kit in T45 Chromoly. A basic kit starts at $1009 for the non-profiled end GD FIA certified kit.
We charge $500 to install the profiled end kit here in Oregon. So a profiled end kit costs $1239 shipped, $500 for install...$1739 total installed for a true FIA certificated roll cage complete. :cool:
If I can help in any way give me a call toll free 877-739-1713.
Charles
It looks like right now that the autopower is the best bet. The Custom Cages UK one is real nice too. You have it for $1900, but what do you think an install on that would cost? Also, I think I'd have my autopower one painted white, anyways, heheh. :)[/QUOTE]
No problem! I'm glad I can help.
FYI though, the custom cages kits start at $1009 for the GD kit, not $1900. $1900 is the price for the latest design Prodrive style kit in T45 Chromoly. A basic kit starts at $1009 for the non-profiled end GD FIA certified kit.
We charge $500 to install the profiled end kit here in Oregon. So a profiled end kit costs $1239 shipped, $500 for install...$1739 total installed for a true FIA certificated roll cage complete. :cool:
If I can help in any way give me a call toll free 877-739-1713.
Charles
| dwx | 02-10-2005 03:44 PM |
When I ordered my autopower rollbar you could get it in any color, as long as it was black. :) If you want it white you are probably going to have to paint it yourself.
| CirrusWRX | 02-10-2005 04:27 PM |
Just to throw out another .02 into the mix- just because a cage "looks" good, doesn't mean it IS good. So far, it's clear all these people (vendors included) KNOW what they're talking about and are peddling wares that WILL keep you safe in the event of a crash.
But don't fall victim to the "show" cages and roll bars which are the equivalent of shrapnel in a crash. I bet I could draw up a kickass [i]looking[/i] rollbar with 26 points that could kill you very efficiently ;)
Definitely want to be aware of that if looking for a complete custom build. Of course, most custom builders know a thing or two about safety, but always keep it in the back of your mind.
Also, take into consideration the groups you're PLANNING on running with (in addition to the groups you WILL be running with.) In other words, what may be marked as XYZ certified *may* not suffice for the groups in your region.
But don't fall victim to the "show" cages and roll bars which are the equivalent of shrapnel in a crash. I bet I could draw up a kickass [i]looking[/i] rollbar with 26 points that could kill you very efficiently ;)
Definitely want to be aware of that if looking for a complete custom build. Of course, most custom builders know a thing or two about safety, but always keep it in the back of your mind.
Also, take into consideration the groups you're PLANNING on running with (in addition to the groups you WILL be running with.) In other words, what may be marked as XYZ certified *may* not suffice for the groups in your region.
| slickvic | 02-10-2005 05:18 PM |
A quick question about the autopower 6point roll cage. Does it still maintain the full range of motion for the drivers seat as far as forward and back, as im 6'3" and leg room is important for me in my daily driver that hits the occasioanl track day.
| Safe Drives | 02-10-2005 06:32 PM |
[QUOTE=slickvic]A quick question about the autopower 6point roll cage. Does it still maintain the full range of motion for the drivers seat as far as forward and back, as im 6'3" and leg room is important for me in my daily driver that hits the occasioanl track day.[/QUOTE]
[color=black][font=Times New Roman][size=3]That's a good question and I've gotten that one allot. After chatting with the folks at Autopower they explained to me how they go about building a cage and roll bar kit. What they do is slide the seat all the way back and have the seatback placed at a normal driving angle. Then they build the roll bars and cages around that seat position. BUT, obviously at some point when reclining the seat back the seat will hit the bar. For you at 6'3", I would think that you should fit just fine. [/size][/font][/color]:)
FYI- Autopower has been in the roll cage and roll bar biz for like 30 years. :cool:
[color=black][font=Times New Roman][size=3]That's a good question and I've gotten that one allot. After chatting with the folks at Autopower they explained to me how they go about building a cage and roll bar kit. What they do is slide the seat all the way back and have the seatback placed at a normal driving angle. Then they build the roll bars and cages around that seat position. BUT, obviously at some point when reclining the seat back the seat will hit the bar. For you at 6'3", I would think that you should fit just fine. [/size][/font][/color]:)
FYI- Autopower has been in the roll cage and roll bar biz for like 30 years. :cool:
| Element Tuning | 02-10-2005 06:51 PM |
[QUOTE=slickvic]A quick question about the autopower 6point roll cage. Does it still maintain the full range of motion for the drivers seat as far as forward and back, as im 6'3" and leg room is important for me in my daily driver that hits the occasioanl track day.[/QUOTE]
I'm just about 6' 2" and you can see in this picture there is about another 4-5" left to move the seat back. Keep in mind this is a very thin race seat.
[IMG]http://www.elementtuning.com/DSC00583.JPG[/IMG]
I was worried about the same thing as I've been in cars that had harness bars and they were so uncomfortable for me.
The hardest part about this whole project was not getting the cage to fit but the seats! They are just so wide at the shoulders.
Thanks,
Phil
[url]www.elementtuning.com[/url]
I'm just about 6' 2" and you can see in this picture there is about another 4-5" left to move the seat back. Keep in mind this is a very thin race seat.
[IMG]http://www.elementtuning.com/DSC00583.JPG[/IMG]
I was worried about the same thing as I've been in cars that had harness bars and they were so uncomfortable for me.
The hardest part about this whole project was not getting the cage to fit but the seats! They are just so wide at the shoulders.
Thanks,
Phil
[url]www.elementtuning.com[/url]
| foxdeman | 02-10-2005 07:32 PM |
lots of good information so far!
What does everyone here think about using a roll cage/bar on the street? Is there enough clearance in the available bars to be safe without increasing the chances of head-metal interaction in a collision?
What does everyone here think about using a roll cage/bar on the street? Is there enough clearance in the available bars to be safe without increasing the chances of head-metal interaction in a collision?
| Safe Drives | 02-10-2005 07:59 PM |
Cages and roll bars are safe on the street but you must use padding everywhere. Also, a cage or roll bar allows you to use a four + point seat belt that is much safer than your standard three point belt.
| StealthWRX | 02-10-2005 08:02 PM |
Would you say that a car, for example, that has an autopower cage and harnesses+steering wheel with no airbag...is safer than one with an airbag and no cage. for street driving or any kind
or would you say keep the airbag with the cage and harness
or would you say keep the airbag with the cage and harness
| Safe Drives | 02-10-2005 08:32 PM |
Any caged car is safer than one without a cage assuming the cage is properly designed and installed. Once you start strapping yourself in with a proper harness then you really should pull the airbag out. Airbags are designed as a suplimental restraint system(SRS) to take up the slack for that wimpy three point seatbelt that we trust our lives to...
| StealthWRX | 02-10-2005 10:21 PM |
thanks. I have my autopower cage on order with a pair of thier harnesses. Wanted to make sure I should get a wheel too.
| Butt Dyno | 02-11-2005 12:00 AM |
[QUOTE=Safe Drives]Any caged car is safer than one without a cage assuming the cage is properly designed and installed. Once you start strapping yourself in with a proper harness then you really should pull the airbag out. Airbags are designed as a suplimental restraint system(SRS) to take up the slack for that wimpy three point seatbelt that we trust our lives to...[/QUOTE]
So, why does that mean you pull the airbag out? Is it a "don't need" or a "not safe"?
So, why does that mean you pull the airbag out? Is it a "don't need" or a "not safe"?
| InfamousDX | 02-11-2005 01:46 AM |
Does anyone know hte size of the bolts to bolt in the autopower 4 point? I'm getting a used one but it's just the bar itself. Or at least what vendor I can contact (besides Autopower themselves) to see about a hardware kit?
| aaronyoung | 02-11-2005 08:39 AM |
I have a few questions about the autopower weld in kit, if I may.
What style of welding is recommended for the cage? (MIG, or TIG)
I am sure this is material dependant so we can kill 2 birds with one stone if you can tell me the type of material that is used? (mild steel, or chrome moly)
Lastly I know autopower makes a cage for the 02 impreza that is bolt in but, does autopower make a chassis specific weld in cage, or is it a kit that needs to be cut up to fit?
aaron
What style of welding is recommended for the cage? (MIG, or TIG)
I am sure this is material dependant so we can kill 2 birds with one stone if you can tell me the type of material that is used? (mild steel, or chrome moly)
Lastly I know autopower makes a cage for the 02 impreza that is bolt in but, does autopower make a chassis specific weld in cage, or is it a kit that needs to be cut up to fit?
aaron
| StealthWRX | 02-11-2005 10:33 AM |
DX- Why not just call Autopower regarding the bolt-kit? Just wondering...
aaron- Phil told me that the Autopower bolt-in fit so well that he could have just welded it. I think he mentions this in one of his posts in this thread.
aaron- Phil told me that the Autopower bolt-in fit so well that he could have just welded it. I think he mentions this in one of his posts in this thread.
| Safe Drives | 02-11-2005 12:25 PM |
[QUOTE=aaronyoung]I have a few questions about the autopower weld in kit, if I may.
What style of welding is recommended for the cage? (MIG, or TIG)
I am sure this is material dependant so we can kill 2 birds with one stone if you can tell me the type of material that is used? (mild steel, or chrome moly)
Lastly I know autopower makes a cage for the 02 impreza that is bolt in but, does autopower make a chassis specific weld in cage, or is it a kit that needs to be cut up to fit?
aaron[/QUOTE]
Safe Drives LLC (me) is an Autopower dealer along with five other cage/bar manufacturers. They do make a specific weld in kit for the GD Impreza. The tube ends will need to be profiled or shaped to meet the point where you weld it together. We have Autopower Weld in kit available for $699.
[url="http://www.safedrives.com/prodimages/autopower/apcages_lg.gif"][img]http://www.safedrives.com/prodimages/autopower/apcages_lg.gif[/img][/url]
What style of welding is recommended for the cage? (MIG, or TIG)
I am sure this is material dependant so we can kill 2 birds with one stone if you can tell me the type of material that is used? (mild steel, or chrome moly)
Lastly I know autopower makes a cage for the 02 impreza that is bolt in but, does autopower make a chassis specific weld in cage, or is it a kit that needs to be cut up to fit?
aaron[/QUOTE]
Safe Drives LLC (me) is an Autopower dealer along with five other cage/bar manufacturers. They do make a specific weld in kit for the GD Impreza. The tube ends will need to be profiled or shaped to meet the point where you weld it together. We have Autopower Weld in kit available for $699.
[url="http://www.safedrives.com/prodimages/autopower/apcages_lg.gif"][img]http://www.safedrives.com/prodimages/autopower/apcages_lg.gif[/img][/url]
| Joel Gat, 1.8L | 02-16-2005 08:46 PM |
Hello,
In the other thread that references this thread and deals with roll bars, I posted a response, but I think it's appropriate to mention here. I believe roll bars CAN be a good thing to protect drivers in street cars. However, roll CAGES are wholly inappropriate in street cars.
A CAGE with bars near your head is just asking for you to split your head open against a metal bar during an accident. Padding is not designed to help in this situation.
SFI and FIA Standards relating to roll bar padding are designed to improve the survivability of HELMETS when impacting bars. They are not designed to protect a fragile human head. Grab an SFI padded metal pipe and fix it somewhere and then run at a sprint (depending on your condition, from 5 to 20 mph) and slam your head right into the bar. When you wake up, tell me again what protection you think SFI padding affords a naked head.
Here is my long response to the other thread:
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8959377&posted=1#post8959377[/url]
People should be careful when ordering such products for street cars. The product will make your car survive an accident much better, but may cause you to suffer significantly worse injury (or death).
Joel Gat
Crew Chief
Sheehan Motor Racing
In the other thread that references this thread and deals with roll bars, I posted a response, but I think it's appropriate to mention here. I believe roll bars CAN be a good thing to protect drivers in street cars. However, roll CAGES are wholly inappropriate in street cars.
A CAGE with bars near your head is just asking for you to split your head open against a metal bar during an accident. Padding is not designed to help in this situation.
SFI and FIA Standards relating to roll bar padding are designed to improve the survivability of HELMETS when impacting bars. They are not designed to protect a fragile human head. Grab an SFI padded metal pipe and fix it somewhere and then run at a sprint (depending on your condition, from 5 to 20 mph) and slam your head right into the bar. When you wake up, tell me again what protection you think SFI padding affords a naked head.
Here is my long response to the other thread:
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8959377&posted=1#post8959377[/url]
People should be careful when ordering such products for street cars. The product will make your car survive an accident much better, but may cause you to suffer significantly worse injury (or death).
Joel Gat
Crew Chief
Sheehan Motor Racing
| Redline8k | 02-16-2005 10:03 PM |
Phil what model # cage do you have in the race car?
safedrives- how much does the autopower 6-point weigh and what is it made out of?
thanks
-nick
safedrives- how much does the autopower 6-point weigh and what is it made out of?
thanks
-nick
| Safe Drives | 02-17-2005 04:07 AM |
I appologize for my slow response as we have been very, very busy helping to make people safer.
Joel cetainly has his heart in right place and I commend him on that.
What he does not know is that we at Safe Drives are friends with a gentleman by the name of Matt Ray. The Ray family owns BSCI. BSCI is the company that basically wrote the book on SFI and FIA roll cage padding. They were the first company to recieve FIA certification for roll bar pad and among the first to become SFI certified when the first SFI tests were done. He and his family were pioneering forces for increase in quality and certification of roll bar padding in the 1990s. This is all to proves that Mr. Ray knows padding and how it was tested.
Mr. Ray has filled us at Safe Drives in on how padding is tested and certified.
When the SFI or FIA does testing to certify roll bar padding they use a standard crash test dummy head WITHOUT A HELMET. No testing was done with helmets on the dummy heads ever. It turnes out that it is quite safe indeed to have this type of pad in your vehicle and to hit your head on it an accident. Much safer than to hit your head on that plastic that is covering your B pillar or A pillar.
Think about a 5000lb SUV coming through your drivers door at well, any speed really...would you be safer with a cage or without? I like this example because my Mom was killed in accident like this.
I don't want to see people hurt or killed in auto accidents. Sadly over forty thousand people a year are killed in auto related accidents every year. Millions more are injured. Safe Drives has been a dream of mine for over four years now and I am proud of what we are doing.
Thank you,
Charles Buren
CEO / Founder
Safe Drives LLC
[url="http://www.safedrives.com/"]www.safedrives.com[/url]
Joel cetainly has his heart in right place and I commend him on that.
What he does not know is that we at Safe Drives are friends with a gentleman by the name of Matt Ray. The Ray family owns BSCI. BSCI is the company that basically wrote the book on SFI and FIA roll cage padding. They were the first company to recieve FIA certification for roll bar pad and among the first to become SFI certified when the first SFI tests were done. He and his family were pioneering forces for increase in quality and certification of roll bar padding in the 1990s. This is all to proves that Mr. Ray knows padding and how it was tested.
Mr. Ray has filled us at Safe Drives in on how padding is tested and certified.
When the SFI or FIA does testing to certify roll bar padding they use a standard crash test dummy head WITHOUT A HELMET. No testing was done with helmets on the dummy heads ever. It turnes out that it is quite safe indeed to have this type of pad in your vehicle and to hit your head on it an accident. Much safer than to hit your head on that plastic that is covering your B pillar or A pillar.
Think about a 5000lb SUV coming through your drivers door at well, any speed really...would you be safer with a cage or without? I like this example because my Mom was killed in accident like this.
I don't want to see people hurt or killed in auto accidents. Sadly over forty thousand people a year are killed in auto related accidents every year. Millions more are injured. Safe Drives has been a dream of mine for over four years now and I am proud of what we are doing.
Thank you,
Charles Buren
CEO / Founder
Safe Drives LLC
[url="http://www.safedrives.com/"]www.safedrives.com[/url]
| Safe Drives | 02-17-2005 04:10 AM |
[QUOTE=Redline8k]Phil what model # cage do you have in the race car?
safedrives- how much does the autopower 6-point weigh and what is it made out of?
thanks
-nick[/QUOTE]
The Impreza Autopower 6 point cage kit weighs about 100lbs and is made from 1.75" x .120" DOM tube.
:)
safedrives- how much does the autopower 6-point weigh and what is it made out of?
thanks
-nick[/QUOTE]
The Impreza Autopower 6 point cage kit weighs about 100lbs and is made from 1.75" x .120" DOM tube.
:)
| Joel Gat, 1.8L | 02-17-2005 12:47 PM |
Hello all,
[QUOTE=Safe Drives]I appologize for my slow responce as we have been very, very busy helping to make people safer.[/quote]
No problem! If you're right, then more power to you and I'll take back my opinion, though I still know from banging my own head into an SFI padded bar, that my head isn't thick enough to survive a low speed impact. I suppose I'm only a lowly consumer, so I can only base my opinion on FIA / SFI testing procedures by what they publish / claim those procedures to be.
Looking back to that [URL=http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/65259021__FIA_Stand_8857_2001_Rollcage.pdf]FIA Standard[/URL], however, I see the following:
[quote=FIA, page 2 of 18]3.2 Impactor
A falling weight, with geometry and mass to represent the head of a driver fitted with a protective helmet.[/quote]
[quote=FIA, page 4 of 18]1. Impactor
The impactor shall have a mass of 6.8kg � 0.05kg. The impact face shall be a hemisphere or spherical cap with a radius of 124mm (corresponding to diameter of 248mm).[/quote]
Although I have a big head, it certainly isn't 248 mm (9.76 inches) in diameter. My helmet is, but my head is not.
[quote=FIA, page 4 of 18]6. Impact velocity
The impact velocity shall be 7.0m/s (+0. -0.10) for the type A and 5,0m/s (+0. -0,10) for the type B[/quote]
(btw, 7 m/s = 15 mph, 5 m/s = 11 mph)
So what's an acceptable result?
[quote=FIA, page 2 of 18]4. PERFORMANCE ASSESSMENT
The performance of the rollcage padding shall be measured in accordance with Appendix I.
When tested in accordance with these procedures, the peak acceleration shall not exceed 300g.[/quote]
The padding is good, performance-wise (it also needs to meet the standard hot and cold and needs to be flame resistent), if it reduces the impact to your head to below 300G deceleration.
I also certainly wouldn't want to test my head out with a 300G deceleration! That's practically slamming your head into a metal bar! Oh wait, it is exactly that...
[quote=SafeDrives]Joel cetainly has his heart in right place and I commend him on that.[/quote]
And I commend your company on its safety focus. Your hearts are in the right place, but in this case, I think you overlooked the added danger caused by the rollbar to the unprotected head.
[quote=SafeDrives]Mr. Ray has filled us at Safe Drives in on how padding is tested and certified.
When the SFI or FIA does testing to certify roll bar padding they use a standard crash test dummy head WITHOUT A HELMET.[/quote]
They use an Impactor, whose size and weight approximately matches the helmetted head of a human, at least, according to the FIA. I have personally never read the SFI specification itself (would love to see it, though), but since FIA padding is thicker, more energy absorbant, and in many forms of racing, SFI is listed as the minimum spec, while FIA is the recommended spec, I would guess that the SFI padding is even less street-car friendly.
[quote=SafeDrives]Much safer than to hit your head on that plastic that is covering your B pillar or A pillar.[/quote]
The NHTSA agrees that the side of the car isn't too comfortable to hit your head against. They concluded [URL=http://www.hwysafety.org/srpdfs/sr3804.pdf]in this PDF from hwysafety.org[/URL] :
[quote=NHTSA, page 7]Car occupants are about twice as likely to be killed in a side impact if the other vehicle is an SUV than if it's a car of about the same weight. In the short term, the best way to address this is by adding side airbags with head protection.[/quote]
The answer for the NHTSA is not to build cages into cars. I agree that the chassis is safer with a cage in it. In an accident where serious deformation of the passenger box is the killer, the cage will reduce that deformation. The locations of such objects such as the B-pillar, are designed to minimize their likelihood of impacting the driver in an accident. Since the cage is much closer to your head, I don't know that the cage itself will not kill you, though. I do know that in a "slight" accident at 30 mph, though, the cage may split your skull open instead of your head just flopping around. The airbags that your stock seats have these days in many cars (including Subarus) should offer head impact protection that cannot be rivalled by a solid metal bar with a thin layer of padding.
[quote=SafeDrives]Think about a 5000lb SUV coming through your drivers door at well, any speed really...would you be safer with a cage or without? I like this example because my Mom was killed in accident like this.[/quote]
I'm sorry to hear that about your mother, and I guess this is probably a large part of the impetus to create a safety products company. I commend you on your noble response to such a tradgedy, if that's the case.
Nevertheless, a cage would have reduced intrusion and replaced that danger with a new danger - a big metal bar for her unprotected head to have hit.
Why do racecar drivers wear helmets? With a cage and a 5- or 6-point harness, they're perfectly safe, aren't they?
I looked at your website. You have lots of great stuff available there. Roll bars are great, if there are no back seat passengers and the bar is set behind the driver by enough that his head won't impact the bar. Harness bars are great, too, so long as they are properly affixed AND they are removed when you have rear passengers.
If you have better text for the SFI and FIA testing procedures, please post. I would love to be wrong, because if I am, I'll get whatever padding type is required and I'll cage my daily driver in a heartbeat. Stiffness for the chassis and safety, together, would be awesome.
Joel
[QUOTE=Safe Drives]I appologize for my slow responce as we have been very, very busy helping to make people safer.[/quote]
No problem! If you're right, then more power to you and I'll take back my opinion, though I still know from banging my own head into an SFI padded bar, that my head isn't thick enough to survive a low speed impact. I suppose I'm only a lowly consumer, so I can only base my opinion on FIA / SFI testing procedures by what they publish / claim those procedures to be.
Looking back to that [URL=http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/65259021__FIA_Stand_8857_2001_Rollcage.pdf]FIA Standard[/URL], however, I see the following:
[quote=FIA, page 2 of 18]3.2 Impactor
A falling weight, with geometry and mass to represent the head of a driver fitted with a protective helmet.[/quote]
[quote=FIA, page 4 of 18]1. Impactor
The impactor shall have a mass of 6.8kg � 0.05kg. The impact face shall be a hemisphere or spherical cap with a radius of 124mm (corresponding to diameter of 248mm).[/quote]
Although I have a big head, it certainly isn't 248 mm (9.76 inches) in diameter. My helmet is, but my head is not.
[quote=FIA, page 4 of 18]6. Impact velocity
The impact velocity shall be 7.0m/s (+0. -0.10) for the type A and 5,0m/s (+0. -0,10) for the type B[/quote]
(btw, 7 m/s = 15 mph, 5 m/s = 11 mph)
So what's an acceptable result?
[quote=FIA, page 2 of 18]4. PERFORMANCE ASSESSMENT
The performance of the rollcage padding shall be measured in accordance with Appendix I.
When tested in accordance with these procedures, the peak acceleration shall not exceed 300g.[/quote]
The padding is good, performance-wise (it also needs to meet the standard hot and cold and needs to be flame resistent), if it reduces the impact to your head to below 300G deceleration.
I also certainly wouldn't want to test my head out with a 300G deceleration! That's practically slamming your head into a metal bar! Oh wait, it is exactly that...
[quote=SafeDrives]Joel cetainly has his heart in right place and I commend him on that.[/quote]
And I commend your company on its safety focus. Your hearts are in the right place, but in this case, I think you overlooked the added danger caused by the rollbar to the unprotected head.
[quote=SafeDrives]Mr. Ray has filled us at Safe Drives in on how padding is tested and certified.
When the SFI or FIA does testing to certify roll bar padding they use a standard crash test dummy head WITHOUT A HELMET.[/quote]
They use an Impactor, whose size and weight approximately matches the helmetted head of a human, at least, according to the FIA. I have personally never read the SFI specification itself (would love to see it, though), but since FIA padding is thicker, more energy absorbant, and in many forms of racing, SFI is listed as the minimum spec, while FIA is the recommended spec, I would guess that the SFI padding is even less street-car friendly.
[quote=SafeDrives]Much safer than to hit your head on that plastic that is covering your B pillar or A pillar.[/quote]
The NHTSA agrees that the side of the car isn't too comfortable to hit your head against. They concluded [URL=http://www.hwysafety.org/srpdfs/sr3804.pdf]in this PDF from hwysafety.org[/URL] :
[quote=NHTSA, page 7]Car occupants are about twice as likely to be killed in a side impact if the other vehicle is an SUV than if it's a car of about the same weight. In the short term, the best way to address this is by adding side airbags with head protection.[/quote]
The answer for the NHTSA is not to build cages into cars. I agree that the chassis is safer with a cage in it. In an accident where serious deformation of the passenger box is the killer, the cage will reduce that deformation. The locations of such objects such as the B-pillar, are designed to minimize their likelihood of impacting the driver in an accident. Since the cage is much closer to your head, I don't know that the cage itself will not kill you, though. I do know that in a "slight" accident at 30 mph, though, the cage may split your skull open instead of your head just flopping around. The airbags that your stock seats have these days in many cars (including Subarus) should offer head impact protection that cannot be rivalled by a solid metal bar with a thin layer of padding.
[quote=SafeDrives]Think about a 5000lb SUV coming through your drivers door at well, any speed really...would you be safer with a cage or without? I like this example because my Mom was killed in accident like this.[/quote]
I'm sorry to hear that about your mother, and I guess this is probably a large part of the impetus to create a safety products company. I commend you on your noble response to such a tradgedy, if that's the case.
Nevertheless, a cage would have reduced intrusion and replaced that danger with a new danger - a big metal bar for her unprotected head to have hit.
Why do racecar drivers wear helmets? With a cage and a 5- or 6-point harness, they're perfectly safe, aren't they?
I looked at your website. You have lots of great stuff available there. Roll bars are great, if there are no back seat passengers and the bar is set behind the driver by enough that his head won't impact the bar. Harness bars are great, too, so long as they are properly affixed AND they are removed when you have rear passengers.
If you have better text for the SFI and FIA testing procedures, please post. I would love to be wrong, because if I am, I'll get whatever padding type is required and I'll cage my daily driver in a heartbeat. Stiffness for the chassis and safety, together, would be awesome.
Joel
| exhacker | 02-17-2005 02:09 PM |
I hope I'm not hijacking here. I've heard that you can get ticketed on the streets for wearing harnesses.... let me explain:
If you remove the seat belts and install harnesses, you can end up with two tickets. One for removing the DOT approved seat harness(es), and another ticket for not wearing it! I just thought you guys should be aware of this if you were considering a harness bar or cage on the street. You should always retain your stock seat belts in the car, and always wear them *over* your upgraded harnesses. This way, the enforcement officers cannot cite you for any wrongdoings. It is not illegal to be a boy-racer, provided you retain and use your DOT-approved restraints while using public roadways. Also, some local or regional autocross folks will not approve mere harness bar & harness unless you also wear your factory belt(s).
This may be just nasty rumor, but it's food for thought. I don't think a cage is apropos on the street, personally. I think it should be reserved for race-only cars.
-x
If you remove the seat belts and install harnesses, you can end up with two tickets. One for removing the DOT approved seat harness(es), and another ticket for not wearing it! I just thought you guys should be aware of this if you were considering a harness bar or cage on the street. You should always retain your stock seat belts in the car, and always wear them *over* your upgraded harnesses. This way, the enforcement officers cannot cite you for any wrongdoings. It is not illegal to be a boy-racer, provided you retain and use your DOT-approved restraints while using public roadways. Also, some local or regional autocross folks will not approve mere harness bar & harness unless you also wear your factory belt(s).
This may be just nasty rumor, but it's food for thought. I don't think a cage is apropos on the street, personally. I think it should be reserved for race-only cars.
-x
| Safe Drives | 02-17-2005 03:36 PM |
Thank you Joel for the detailed response.
To all,
Matt Ray at BSCI told us that his padding has received/met a Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard for road cars. I have a call into him to find out exactly which standard that was. I will post on this asap so we all can have a warm fuzzy feeling about caged street cars.
On a related note I will mention that there are several manufacturers of SFI certified roll cage pad. I saw many versions of this pad just this last Sunday at our local rally car annual inspections. I was surprised at the wide variety of padding dimensions that I saw. Some seemed rediculously small dimensionally in comparison to the BSCI product that we sell and promote. However they all carry the same certification so...
Here is the BSCI product:
[img]http://rollbarpadding.com/images/padding.jpg[/img]
The BSCI pad that we sell comes no thinner at any point than 3/4 of an inch. Other SFI rated pad I saw over the weekend was in the 0- 1/2 inch range with tapered edges. This could be what was in your friends Miata.
I will post more information asap on the FMV standards thing.
As far as the motivations to start Safe Drives there are others besides my Mothers death. Personally I have a very bad driving record that includes many sever accidents. I have even been hospitalized after an accident where my vehicle left the road and flipped violently. My partner Teresa has also been in several violent auto accidents. One day, after a close call with another vehicle I had the idea for Safe Drives and began writing a business plan. That was about four years ago.
[QUOTE]I've heard that you can get ticketed on the streets for wearing harnesses...
[/QUOTE]
This is on a state by state basis in general. Now, more specifically we have 4+ point seat belts and harnesses that carry a USDOT aproval. In this case they would be legal in ALL states. The mounting of any seat belt is critical however.
Charles
To all,
Matt Ray at BSCI told us that his padding has received/met a Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard for road cars. I have a call into him to find out exactly which standard that was. I will post on this asap so we all can have a warm fuzzy feeling about caged street cars.
On a related note I will mention that there are several manufacturers of SFI certified roll cage pad. I saw many versions of this pad just this last Sunday at our local rally car annual inspections. I was surprised at the wide variety of padding dimensions that I saw. Some seemed rediculously small dimensionally in comparison to the BSCI product that we sell and promote. However they all carry the same certification so...
Here is the BSCI product:
[img]http://rollbarpadding.com/images/padding.jpg[/img]
The BSCI pad that we sell comes no thinner at any point than 3/4 of an inch. Other SFI rated pad I saw over the weekend was in the 0- 1/2 inch range with tapered edges. This could be what was in your friends Miata.
I will post more information asap on the FMV standards thing.
As far as the motivations to start Safe Drives there are others besides my Mothers death. Personally I have a very bad driving record that includes many sever accidents. I have even been hospitalized after an accident where my vehicle left the road and flipped violently. My partner Teresa has also been in several violent auto accidents. One day, after a close call with another vehicle I had the idea for Safe Drives and began writing a business plan. That was about four years ago.
[QUOTE]I've heard that you can get ticketed on the streets for wearing harnesses...
[/QUOTE]
This is on a state by state basis in general. Now, more specifically we have 4+ point seat belts and harnesses that carry a USDOT aproval. In this case they would be legal in ALL states. The mounting of any seat belt is critical however.
Charles
| Safe Drives | 02-17-2005 07:49 PM |
[url="http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8970588#post8970588"]As a follow up to this post please follow this link to the updated information on this pad passing the Federal Motor Vehicle Standard 201.U.[/url]
Thanks!
Thanks!
| Joel Gat, 1.8L | 02-18-2005 01:26 AM |
[QUOTE=Safe Drives][url="http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8970588#post8970588"]As a follow up to this post please follow this link to the updated information on this pad passing the Federal Motor Vehicle Standard 201.U.[/url]
Thanks![/QUOTE]
Hello,
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8973390&posted=1#post8973390[/url]
Yes, please do follow the link. The cited references indicate that while the padding is safe for car interiors, its performance on a metal cage bar is not.
Joel
Thanks![/QUOTE]
Hello,
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8973390&posted=1#post8973390[/url]
Yes, please do follow the link. The cited references indicate that while the padding is safe for car interiors, its performance on a metal cage bar is not.
Joel
| ScreaminFast | 02-18-2005 09:18 AM |
wow, i just read alot of your information joel. I'm going to be pondering this for a while now, just to realize how much actual street driving i'll be doing.
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