| Howl | 10-09-2006 08:34 AM |
Bill C-19 could spell the end of rallying in Canada
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Bill C-19 could spell the end of rallying and many other racing events in Canada.
[URL="http://www2.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?DocId=2333975&Language=e&Mode=1&File=24"]http://www2.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?DocId=2333975&Language=e&Mode=1&File=24[/URL]
Which would be added to the current legislation:
[URL="http://www.canlii.org/ca/sta/c-46/sec249.html"]http://www.canlii.org/ca/sta/c-46/sec249.html[/URL]
[QUOTE]�street racing� means operating a motor vehicle in a race with at least one other motor vehicle on a street, road, highway or other public place;[/QUOTE]
The issue is "race" is not defined. A race could include any timed event including a performance rally, TSD rally, and even a RallyX or AutoX event held on public property. The way the proposed legislation is currently worded it looks like it would also capture events like the Molson Indy and Canadian Grand Prix which are held in public places.
Therefore the drivers in any of these events could face up to five years in prison just for participating. Only events that are completely on private property would be allowed.
I know the Canadian Association of Rally Sport (CARS) is currently lobbying the government to get the bill changed. I assume other motorsports groups are doing the same.
[URL="http://www2.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?DocId=2333975&Language=e&Mode=1&File=24"]http://www2.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?DocId=2333975&Language=e&Mode=1&File=24[/URL]
Which would be added to the current legislation:
[URL="http://www.canlii.org/ca/sta/c-46/sec249.html"]http://www.canlii.org/ca/sta/c-46/sec249.html[/URL]
[QUOTE]�street racing� means operating a motor vehicle in a race with at least one other motor vehicle on a street, road, highway or other public place;[/QUOTE]
The issue is "race" is not defined. A race could include any timed event including a performance rally, TSD rally, and even a RallyX or AutoX event held on public property. The way the proposed legislation is currently worded it looks like it would also capture events like the Molson Indy and Canadian Grand Prix which are held in public places.
Therefore the drivers in any of these events could face up to five years in prison just for participating. Only events that are completely on private property would be allowed.
I know the Canadian Association of Rally Sport (CARS) is currently lobbying the government to get the bill changed. I assume other motorsports groups are doing the same.
| XenoWolf | 10-09-2006 01:46 PM |
I'm not certain on this, but when you obtain permits to run an event (whether it's a performance rally or a street course race) doesn't that road essentially become "private"?
| Porter | 10-09-2006 05:38 PM |
No, it doesn't. It becomes a public road that has limited access.
A mountie with a chip on his shoulder could still arrest people and create a huge problem, because the law is poorly worded.
A mountie with a chip on his shoulder could still arrest people and create a huge problem, because the law is poorly worded.
| RichardM | 10-09-2006 06:02 PM |
[QUOTE=XenoWolf;15545363]I'm not certain on this, but when you obtain permits to run an event (whether it's a performance rally or a street course race) doesn't that road essentially become "private"?[/QUOTE]
Yes but in the state of Texas because the legislature passed a law declaring this. The law was passed several years ago to allow the Dallas Grand Prix which used public roads.
Yes but in the state of Texas because the legislature passed a law declaring this. The law was passed several years ago to allow the Dallas Grand Prix which used public roads.
| Chromer | 10-09-2006 06:23 PM |
[QUOTE=RichardM;15548479]Yes but in the state of Texas because the legislature passed a law declaring this. The law was passed several years ago to allow the Dallas Grand Prix which used public roads.[/QUOTE]
Generally it is much easier to fix problems like this BEFORE a law goes into effect, rather than to except the situation out with yet another law or an ammendment.
Someone just didn't think through the implications of the wording.
Hopefully the Targa Newfoundland people are on this. That event brings quite a bit of money to what is a fairly limited local economy. They should have some big pull with their MP's. (Congressdroids, for the Yanks).
Generally it is much easier to fix problems like this BEFORE a law goes into effect, rather than to except the situation out with yet another law or an ammendment.
Someone just didn't think through the implications of the wording.
Hopefully the Targa Newfoundland people are on this. That event brings quite a bit of money to what is a fairly limited local economy. They should have some big pull with their MP's. (Congressdroids, for the Yanks).
| Dynobyte | 10-10-2006 03:14 AM |
oh please. you wont lose the molson indy because of that law. rolleyes man.
| Howl | 10-10-2006 08:39 AM |
[QUOTE=Dynobyte;15553778]oh please. you wont lose the molson indy because of that law. rolleyes man.[/QUOTE]
I realize that, but it points out how poorly written and thought out this bill is. Obviously the wording needs to be changed, and probably will be. But to what? I believe CARS is trying to make sure sanctioned events, particularly TSD rallys on open roads, are specifically allowed (apparently there is wording in Quebec legislation that recognizes TSD's are a legitimate use of public roads). The problem is the Canadian Government is currently controlled by ultra-conservative, law-and-order type people, who may not care if motorsports people suffer.
I realize that, but it points out how poorly written and thought out this bill is. Obviously the wording needs to be changed, and probably will be. But to what? I believe CARS is trying to make sure sanctioned events, particularly TSD rallys on open roads, are specifically allowed (apparently there is wording in Quebec legislation that recognizes TSD's are a legitimate use of public roads). The problem is the Canadian Government is currently controlled by ultra-conservative, law-and-order type people, who may not care if motorsports people suffer.
| XenoWolf | 10-10-2006 10:30 AM |
[QUOTE=Howl;15554575]law-and-order type people[/QUOTE]
[img]http://www.lawandordergame.com/images/test_r1_c1.jpg[/img]
:huh:
[img]http://www.lawandordergame.com/images/test_r1_c1.jpg[/img]
:huh:
| silver arrow | 10-10-2006 12:33 PM |
Bruton Smith (multiple NASCAR track owner) is trying to get a similar law passed in the US with the intent of forcing street derived courses in CART to be run at fixed facilities.
| Howl | 10-10-2006 12:59 PM |
[QUOTE=Howl;15554575]law-and-order type people[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://www.affirmation.org/images/humor/postcards/family_values.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.affirmation.org/images/humor/postcards/family_values.jpg[/IMG]
| 10th Warrior | 10-10-2006 01:55 PM |
[QUOTE=silver arrow;15557538]Bruton Smith (multiple NASCAR track owner) is trying to get a similar law passed in the US with the intent of forcing street derived courses in CART to be run at fixed facilities.[/QUOTE]
only in AZ IIRC.
only in AZ IIRC.
| Howl | 10-10-2006 03:03 PM |
I don't know if the AutoX people realize that this would affect them as well. Many AutoX's in Canada are held in parking lots that are considered "public places" under Canadian law.
| Swordfish II | 10-10-2006 03:15 PM |
[QUOTE=Howl;15542049]Bill C-19 could spell the end of rallying and many other racing events in Canada.
[URL="http://www2.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?DocId=2333975&Language=e&Mode=1&File=24"]http://www2.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?DocId=2333975&Language=e&Mode=1&File=24[/URL]
Which would be added to the current legislation:
[URL="http://www.canlii.org/ca/sta/c-46/sec249.html"]http://www.canlii.org/ca/sta/c-46/sec249.html[/URL]
The issue is "race" is not defined. A race could include any timed event including a performance rally, TSD rally, and even a RallyX or AutoX event held on public property. The way the proposed legislation is currently worded it looks like it would also capture events like the Molson Indy and Canadian Grand Prix which are held in public places.
Therefore the drivers in any of these events could face up to five years in prison just for participating. Only events that are completely on private property would be allowed.
I know the Canadian Association of Rally Sport (CARS) is currently lobbying the government to get the bill changed. I assume other motorsports groups are doing the same.[/QUOTE]
But if the parking lot is closed due to autox then it is no longer available to the public, and is thus not public place, at least while the race is going on, and should not fall under that law correct?
[URL="http://www2.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?DocId=2333975&Language=e&Mode=1&File=24"]http://www2.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?DocId=2333975&Language=e&Mode=1&File=24[/URL]
Which would be added to the current legislation:
[URL="http://www.canlii.org/ca/sta/c-46/sec249.html"]http://www.canlii.org/ca/sta/c-46/sec249.html[/URL]
The issue is "race" is not defined. A race could include any timed event including a performance rally, TSD rally, and even a RallyX or AutoX event held on public property. The way the proposed legislation is currently worded it looks like it would also capture events like the Molson Indy and Canadian Grand Prix which are held in public places.
Therefore the drivers in any of these events could face up to five years in prison just for participating. Only events that are completely on private property would be allowed.
I know the Canadian Association of Rally Sport (CARS) is currently lobbying the government to get the bill changed. I assume other motorsports groups are doing the same.[/QUOTE]
But if the parking lot is closed due to autox then it is no longer available to the public, and is thus not public place, at least while the race is going on, and should not fall under that law correct?
| Howl | 10-10-2006 04:15 PM |
It depends on how the government defines a public place (i.e. what the legal definition of a public place is in Canadian law). The people I talked to seemed to think that a public place is always a public place whether it's open or not.
| Swordfish II | 10-10-2006 07:10 PM |
[QUOTE=Howl;15560912]It depends on how the government defines a public place (i.e. what the legal definition of a public place is in Canadian law). The people I talked to seemed to think that a public place is always a public place whether it's open or not.[/QUOTE]
Ah, yeah that would really suck :(
Ah, yeah that would really suck :(
| roofis | 10-10-2006 09:35 PM |
I was always under assumption that rally was bigger in Canada than the US. TSD's are really popular up there too. I can't see this not going through a revision or something to more carefully but either way, there's gotta be more to this.
I'm sure there are transportation branches up there who know about CARS, the autox and not to mention the circuit courses and Targa. This seems too premature to say it will end Canadian rally (motorsports?) as we know it.
I'm guessing Canadians aren't allowed to go romping around in the back country on quads & dirt bikes like we can here?
I'm sure there are transportation branches up there who know about CARS, the autox and not to mention the circuit courses and Targa. This seems too premature to say it will end Canadian rally (motorsports?) as we know it.
I'm guessing Canadians aren't allowed to go romping around in the back country on quads & dirt bikes like we can here?
| stirentacar | 10-11-2006 01:02 AM |
these laws will never be actioned the way you're thinking they will
| Weasel 555 | 10-11-2006 07:57 AM |
Damn ! I hope they change /alter the wording on the Bill
| silver arrow | 10-11-2006 11:30 AM |
[QUOTE=10th Warrior;15558779]only in AZ IIRC.[/QUOTE]
I think it was federal, because the real target was to move the Grand Prix of Miami to run at Holmstead.
I think it was federal, because the real target was to move the Grand Prix of Miami to run at Holmstead.
| 10th Warrior | 10-11-2006 12:11 PM |
[QUOTE=silver arrow;15570761]I think it was federal, because the real target was to move the Grand Prix of Miami to run at Holmstead.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/champcar/25568/[/url]
looks like just AZ to me. This, of course, would also cause problems for rally and auto-x.
[url]http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/champcar/25568/[/url]
looks like just AZ to me. This, of course, would also cause problems for rally and auto-x.
| John Vanos | 10-12-2006 07:14 AM |
This is a serious threat to rallying, SOLO, road races etc. The law as it stands is painted with such a broad brush that all of these activities will be made illegal. It is not enough to hope that the laws are not enforced to the letter but if they have the leverage, some will use it. CARS has a comittee looking into this and are organizing with other racing disciplines a response and action plan to address this.
| davis10 | 10-12-2006 04:39 PM |
thats messed up!
| sluflyer06 | 10-12-2006 04:42 PM |
i wouldn't get to worked up...sactioned racing events are not a negative issue for anyone, they generate money and such. I'm sure all sanctioned racing events will be fine.
| Dynobyte | 10-13-2006 05:18 AM |
[QUOTE=stirentacar;15567278]these laws will never be actioned the way you're thinking they will[/QUOTE]
correct
correct
| fliz | 10-13-2006 09:58 AM |
[QUOTE=sluflyer06;15589769]i wouldn't get to worked up...sactioned racing events are not a negative issue for anyone, they generate money and such. I'm sure all sanctioned racing events will be fine.[/QUOTE]
They'll be fine until an organizer pisses off the wrong person. Then that person can go to the local gov't and use this law to explain that what they're doing is illegal, and they risk being sued if they allow the race to continue.
Sanctioned racing on public roads is an inconvenience for regular users of those roads. If they can find a legal leg to stand on, they can bring down a race.
It's good to see CARS is being proactive about this.
They'll be fine until an organizer pisses off the wrong person. Then that person can go to the local gov't and use this law to explain that what they're doing is illegal, and they risk being sued if they allow the race to continue.
Sanctioned racing on public roads is an inconvenience for regular users of those roads. If they can find a legal leg to stand on, they can bring down a race.
It's good to see CARS is being proactive about this.
| SmoothSTI | 10-13-2006 12:33 PM |
I don't think that there's much thought about our racing heritage here. Yes the bill is broad, but I think the focus is clearly targeting street racing and related accidents. As dumb as the government can be sometimes, I don't think that all sanctioned racing events are even remotely at risk. The public backlash of outlawing all racing in Canada would be overwhelming. It's like saying we can't play hockey! Lets keep in mind that the government works for the people, we have the power in this case to overthrow this kind of policy should it get to the point that you think it may go. Otherwise, I'm moving south :)
| Howl | 10-13-2006 12:51 PM |
[QUOTE=SmoothSTI;15600376]I don't think that there's much thought about our racing heritage here. Yes the bill is broad, but I think the focus is clearly targeting street racing and related accidents. As dumb as the government can be sometimes, I don't think that all sanctioned racing events are even remotely at risk. The public backlash of outlawing all racing in Canada would be overwhelming. It's like saying we can't play hockey! Lets keep in mind that the government works for the people, we have the power in this case to overthrow this kind of policy should it get to the point that you think it may go. Otherwise, I'm moving south :)[/QUOTE]
I'm 90% sure the wording of the bill will be changed, if it even gets to 3rd reading, but there aren't THAT many motorsports fans in Canada. I would think the numbers are higher in Quebec, but in the west and rural Ontario, where the current government gets its seats from, I don't think the majority of people would care if sanctioned on-road racing or rallying went bye-bye.
If you took a random poll in any small Canadian town and asked "Do you think roads in your region should be shut down one day a year for a car rally?" I bet most would say no they would not like their roads shut down.
By the way - playing street hockey is banned in many municipalities.
I'm 90% sure the wording of the bill will be changed, if it even gets to 3rd reading, but there aren't THAT many motorsports fans in Canada. I would think the numbers are higher in Quebec, but in the west and rural Ontario, where the current government gets its seats from, I don't think the majority of people would care if sanctioned on-road racing or rallying went bye-bye.
If you took a random poll in any small Canadian town and asked "Do you think roads in your region should be shut down one day a year for a car rally?" I bet most would say no they would not like their roads shut down.
By the way - playing street hockey is banned in many municipalities.
| Doug Woods | 10-13-2006 03:12 PM |
Just so people know, CARS and the Canadian motorsport community are actively addressing the proposed Bill C-19 through a co-ordinated approach to the appropriate authorities and politicians.
Response has been encouraging.
Doug Woods
Response has been encouraging.
Doug Woods
| Howl | 10-13-2006 04:08 PM |
[URL="http://www.mlrc.ca/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=news;action=display;num=1160760148"]http://www.mlrc.ca/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=news;action=display;num=1160760148[/URL]
[QUOTE=MLRC]At the most recent RSO meeting, Maple Leaf Rally Club announced that it will not be running the Ontario Winter Rally as a drivex event in 2007. The MLRC representative added that although statistics do not support the allegation, there is no doubt that the general perception exists that drivexes present a higher risk than other navigational road rallies. While the Bill C19 process is ongoing, MLRC feels that it wishes to back Alasdair and his committee in every way possible and thus decided to eliminate the possibility of its drivex event harming the cause.
[/QUOTE]
:(
[QUOTE=MLRC]At the most recent RSO meeting, Maple Leaf Rally Club announced that it will not be running the Ontario Winter Rally as a drivex event in 2007. The MLRC representative added that although statistics do not support the allegation, there is no doubt that the general perception exists that drivexes present a higher risk than other navigational road rallies. While the Bill C19 process is ongoing, MLRC feels that it wishes to back Alasdair and his committee in every way possible and thus decided to eliminate the possibility of its drivex event harming the cause.
[/QUOTE]
:(
| Vandy | 10-13-2006 05:09 PM |
This sucks. Is there a petition?
| Doug Woods | 10-13-2006 07:43 PM |
[QUOTE=Vandy;15604433]This sucks. Is there a petition?[/QUOTE]
The MLRC has made a very sensible decision. Their decision does not suck. The last thing that is required right now is petitions that would disrupt the plans put in place to address Bill C-19.
Doug Woods
The MLRC has made a very sensible decision. Their decision does not suck. The last thing that is required right now is petitions that would disrupt the plans put in place to address Bill C-19.
Doug Woods
| Chromer | 10-13-2006 10:10 PM |
Pour l'edifications des les noobs, que-ce le "drivex?" I'm not familiar with that term and google isn't being real helpful.
And pardon my french, I know it's terrible...
And pardon my french, I know it's terrible...
| fliz | 10-13-2006 11:55 PM |
[QUOTE=Chromer;15607351]Pour l'edifications des les noobs, que-ce le "drivex?" I'm not familiar with that term and google isn't being real helpful.
And pardon my french, I know it's terrible...[/QUOTE]
"drivex" is a brisk TSD, according to a recent SS thread.
And pardon my french, I know it's terrible...[/QUOTE]
"drivex" is a brisk TSD, according to a recent SS thread.
| Howl | 10-14-2006 10:26 AM |
[QUOTE=Chromer;15607351]Pour l'edifications des les noobs, que-ce le "drivex?" I'm not familiar with that term and google isn't being real helpful.
And pardon my french, I know it's terrible...[/QUOTE]
Ontario (and probably some other places) have two types of TSD rally's - Navex and Drivex. Navex rallys are usually held in the daytime, are about 4 or 5 hours long and stress navigational abilities. The idea is to figure out the clues and complete the course. Drivex rally's are usually overnight and in winter, about 7 or 8 hours long and stress driving ability more than navigational ability (the instructions are dead simple).
And pardon my french, I know it's terrible...[/QUOTE]
Ontario (and probably some other places) have two types of TSD rally's - Navex and Drivex. Navex rallys are usually held in the daytime, are about 4 or 5 hours long and stress navigational abilities. The idea is to figure out the clues and complete the course. Drivex rally's are usually overnight and in winter, about 7 or 8 hours long and stress driving ability more than navigational ability (the instructions are dead simple).
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