| gregr01 | 02-18-2006 11:43 PM |
BSP/SM - can we talk about flared fenders?
�
�
So I've been thinking� yes, a dangerous thing!
Other than my driving, it seems to me that the biggest drawback to my autox performance is lack of tire--compared to what an M3 can comfortably fit, my 245/45/17 V710s have a relatively puny contact patch. Then there are the gigantic footprints left by Corvettes, etc.--you get the idea.
Yes, yes, I've read the 255 thread, and know about stuffing 275s under my existing fenders. But that's not what this thread is about--I'm interested in discussing stuffing some serious tire under there.
Since both BSP and SM allow for wide wheels (and flared fenders to accommodate), is anybody doing wide (17 or 18 x 10.5 or 11) wheels with 285-315 width tires? I'd like to kick off a discussion of this� thoughts, please?
Some issues, questions�
- altered steering geometry.
- lots higher wheel/tire weight.
- inner fender clearance issues.
- hub service life, especially for an '04 STi.
- what about a centerlock hub--legal in either BSP/SM?
- lots higher expense, both for wheels and flares.
- is the STi suspension, utilizing coilovers, capable of keeping such a large footprint planted?
- would the huge increase in contact patch be usable?
Back in my road racing days, I had a buddy that was a genius when it came to autobody work. He once made for me some of the most gorgeous fender flares--out of metal--for my GT3 tub RX-7 (what would now be an EP class car). Here's my Photoshop before/after version of what my STi might look like with flares accommodating a 17 x 11ish wheel and corresponding tire. If you want to stop the image from rotating just click your browser's "stop" button.
[IMG]http://www.randomelement.com/sti/images/sti_flares.gif[/IMG]
Other than my driving, it seems to me that the biggest drawback to my autox performance is lack of tire--compared to what an M3 can comfortably fit, my 245/45/17 V710s have a relatively puny contact patch. Then there are the gigantic footprints left by Corvettes, etc.--you get the idea.
Yes, yes, I've read the 255 thread, and know about stuffing 275s under my existing fenders. But that's not what this thread is about--I'm interested in discussing stuffing some serious tire under there.
Since both BSP and SM allow for wide wheels (and flared fenders to accommodate), is anybody doing wide (17 or 18 x 10.5 or 11) wheels with 285-315 width tires? I'd like to kick off a discussion of this� thoughts, please?
Some issues, questions�
- altered steering geometry.
- lots higher wheel/tire weight.
- inner fender clearance issues.
- hub service life, especially for an '04 STi.
- what about a centerlock hub--legal in either BSP/SM?
- lots higher expense, both for wheels and flares.
- is the STi suspension, utilizing coilovers, capable of keeping such a large footprint planted?
- would the huge increase in contact patch be usable?
Back in my road racing days, I had a buddy that was a genius when it came to autobody work. He once made for me some of the most gorgeous fender flares--out of metal--for my GT3 tub RX-7 (what would now be an EP class car). Here's my Photoshop before/after version of what my STi might look like with flares accommodating a 17 x 11ish wheel and corresponding tire. If you want to stop the image from rotating just click your browser's "stop" button.
[IMG]http://www.randomelement.com/sti/images/sti_flares.gif[/IMG]
| crystalhelix | 02-19-2006 12:34 AM |
Awesome chop!
There will likely be people running all 3 bigger tires this year. I don't think anyone is widebodying the fenders though. Remember, in SP at least, noting can be modified inboard of the hub face. I think you could still do something as far as fenders goes but your less likely to get a protest if you hack or bend.
Justin
Lot's of info on the 255 thread, I guess you have to measure the tradeoffs for yourself, budgetwise and how extreme you want to go. Obviously the car is getting wider, theoretically that can hinder things, also it's something to get used to if you are typically really tight on your cones. Other things, scrub radius, rotating mass, being able to heat up the tires, etc....I will leave some of these to people more educated than myself.
Justin
PS - hoping you do fenders so I can live vicariously through pictures of your car, lol.
There will likely be people running all 3 bigger tires this year. I don't think anyone is widebodying the fenders though. Remember, in SP at least, noting can be modified inboard of the hub face. I think you could still do something as far as fenders goes but your less likely to get a protest if you hack or bend.
Justin
Lot's of info on the 255 thread, I guess you have to measure the tradeoffs for yourself, budgetwise and how extreme you want to go. Obviously the car is getting wider, theoretically that can hinder things, also it's something to get used to if you are typically really tight on your cones. Other things, scrub radius, rotating mass, being able to heat up the tires, etc....I will leave some of these to people more educated than myself.
Justin
PS - hoping you do fenders so I can live vicariously through pictures of your car, lol.
| sciolist | 02-19-2006 04:56 PM |
[QUOTE=gregr01]
Some issues, questions�
- altered steering geometry.
- lots higher wheel/tire weight.
- inner fender clearance issues.
- hub service life, especially for an '04 STi.
- what about a centerlock hub--legal in either BSP/SM?
- lots higher expense, both for wheels and flares.
- is the STi suspension, utilizing coilovers, capable of keeping such a large footprint planted?
- would the huge increase in contact patch be usable?
[/QUOTE]
-is offset by gain in grip
-is offset by increase in torque from boost
-light scrub on liner w/275, NBD
-it goes down. replace your bearings and/or do a hub swap
-you tell me
-what else is new?
-no, but so what? my inside rear gets a little light on 255 Victo's
-yes. just because it's not ideal doesn't mean it isn't better. nothing is ideal
Some issues, questions�
- altered steering geometry.
- lots higher wheel/tire weight.
- inner fender clearance issues.
- hub service life, especially for an '04 STi.
- what about a centerlock hub--legal in either BSP/SM?
- lots higher expense, both for wheels and flares.
- is the STi suspension, utilizing coilovers, capable of keeping such a large footprint planted?
- would the huge increase in contact patch be usable?
[/QUOTE]
-is offset by gain in grip
-is offset by increase in torque from boost
-light scrub on liner w/275, NBD
-it goes down. replace your bearings and/or do a hub swap
-you tell me
-what else is new?
-no, but so what? my inside rear gets a little light on 255 Victo's
-yes. just because it's not ideal doesn't mean it isn't better. nothing is ideal
| WRX8XB | 02-24-2006 10:15 AM |
subscribe,
some people have looked into metal flares and they were not cheap, how much would the setup end up being? (guesstimate of course).
some people have looked into metal flares and they were not cheap, how much would the setup end up being? (guesstimate of course).
| gregr01 | 02-24-2006 11:05 AM |
Lots of factors in the overall cost (should go without saying, right?).
Let's say prices are going to range from...
1) "I can't do any of the work at all, and I don't know anybody with the necessary skills"
2) "I could do lots or definitely know somebody"
Pricing guesstimates...
1) high range cost
- flares, $3,000 (done right at a custom fabrication shop)
- paint, $1,000 (much of the cost is in the flares)
- wheels $2260 (Kodiak, just for the sake of argument. Since there's a significant discount you'd buy at least 8, but we'll price for 4. 17x11, $565 ea. x 4 = $2260 or 18x11, $634 ea. x 4 = $2536)
- tires, $1,000 (Kumho V710 315/35/17, $218 x 4 = $872 -- call it $1000 with shipping, mounting & balance).
Total = $7260
2) low range cost
- flares & paint, $2,000
- wheels & tires, $3,260 (as per above, it's a pretty-much fixed cost)
Total = $5,260
Some of the flare cost [I]might[/I] be reduced if you wanted to go with fiberglass and could find something off the shelf that was close (talking touring-car style blisters, not full fender "replacements"), but I'm looking at a street/autox application and would only go this route with custom knock-your-socks-off gorgeous steel flares. Besides, you can see from the estimate above the wheels & tires are likely to be the big cost.
Let's say prices are going to range from...
1) "I can't do any of the work at all, and I don't know anybody with the necessary skills"
2) "I could do lots or definitely know somebody"
Pricing guesstimates...
1) high range cost
- flares, $3,000 (done right at a custom fabrication shop)
- paint, $1,000 (much of the cost is in the flares)
- wheels $2260 (Kodiak, just for the sake of argument. Since there's a significant discount you'd buy at least 8, but we'll price for 4. 17x11, $565 ea. x 4 = $2260 or 18x11, $634 ea. x 4 = $2536)
- tires, $1,000 (Kumho V710 315/35/17, $218 x 4 = $872 -- call it $1000 with shipping, mounting & balance).
Total = $7260
2) low range cost
- flares & paint, $2,000
- wheels & tires, $3,260 (as per above, it's a pretty-much fixed cost)
Total = $5,260
Some of the flare cost [I]might[/I] be reduced if you wanted to go with fiberglass and could find something off the shelf that was close (talking touring-car style blisters, not full fender "replacements"), but I'm looking at a street/autox application and would only go this route with custom knock-your-socks-off gorgeous steel flares. Besides, you can see from the estimate above the wheels & tires are likely to be the big cost.
| Chromer | 02-24-2006 11:45 AM |
I think you need to talk to Fitz. He has a flared GC8. It's a thing of beauty.
His website is [url]http://www.flat4racing.com/[/url] but it appears to be b0rked at the moment.
From the wide tire thread:
[quote]Car's currently on Enkei 16x9" rims with 265 series victoracer rubber. Also in the garage is a 17x10 steel rim (mock up purposes) and a 315 series tire. Fits with room to spare.
[/quote]
His website is [url]http://www.flat4racing.com/[/url] but it appears to be b0rked at the moment.
From the wide tire thread:
[quote]Car's currently on Enkei 16x9" rims with 265 series victoracer rubber. Also in the garage is a 17x10 steel rim (mock up purposes) and a 315 series tire. Fits with room to spare.
[/quote]
| Student Driver | 02-24-2006 12:39 PM |
Wasn't Cobb's conebasher flared? How did it do? I thought it had some huge tires on it in the same ballpark as you're talking.
| crystalhelix | 02-24-2006 01:58 PM |
The key point is that the "flares" don't make the car any faster. That's why people generally just let the tire stick out of the fender.
I do, however, appreciate how a good widebody looks ;)
Justin
I do, however, appreciate how a good widebody looks ;)
Justin
| SloRice | 02-24-2006 02:12 PM |
I figure I'll let my 18x10.5's kill my paint this year and then custom widebody and paint job next year. :p
| Student Driver | 02-24-2006 03:19 PM |
[QUOTE=crystalhelix]The key point is that the "flares" don't make the car any faster. That's why people generally just let the tire stick out of the fender.
I do, however, appreciate how a good widebody looks ;)
Justin[/QUOTE]
Right, I don't think anybody was implying that made a car faster, but *usually* when a car has a widebody kit it is running a significantly sized wheel/tire combo. I was wondering how well it did (besides being run into a water tanker truck once :) ) when it ran. Here's what Hot Subaru is running this year, maybe they have some insight?
[url]http://hotsubarus.com/projectsm/[/url]
I do, however, appreciate how a good widebody looks ;)
Justin[/QUOTE]
Right, I don't think anybody was implying that made a car faster, but *usually* when a car has a widebody kit it is running a significantly sized wheel/tire combo. I was wondering how well it did (besides being run into a water tanker truck once :) ) when it ran. Here's what Hot Subaru is running this year, maybe they have some insight?
[url]http://hotsubarus.com/projectsm/[/url]
| crystalhelix | 02-24-2006 03:38 PM |
I didn't really like the flares on the new cone-basher...I'd want to go WRC style if possible. Also, most of the widebody people I see are only running 8.5 wheels on a big offset, lame...
My0.02
Justin
My0.02
Justin
| gregr01 | 02-24-2006 04:03 PM |
Now that's the idea, though their custom widebody kit leaves a lot of style on the cutting room floor. I wonder what offset they selected, and tire size?
To address the go-faster issue, clearly we're talking here about a mod that is going to increase drag and result in a lower top speed. For "normal" street driving and autox that's not a problem. The idea is to get as much rubber down as possible, with as much aesthetic style as possible.
My taste runs to touring-car style vs. wide-body.
Hotsubaru car:
[IMG]http://www.randomelement.com/sti/images/hotsubaru_flares.jpg[/IMG]
DTM touring car (admittedly not the best execution):
[IMG]http://www.randomelement.com/sti/images/dtm_flares.jpg[/IMG]
To address the go-faster issue, clearly we're talking here about a mod that is going to increase drag and result in a lower top speed. For "normal" street driving and autox that's not a problem. The idea is to get as much rubber down as possible, with as much aesthetic style as possible.
My taste runs to touring-car style vs. wide-body.
Hotsubaru car:
[IMG]http://www.randomelement.com/sti/images/hotsubaru_flares.jpg[/IMG]
DTM touring car (admittedly not the best execution):
[IMG]http://www.randomelement.com/sti/images/dtm_flares.jpg[/IMG]
| SloRice | 02-24-2006 04:51 PM |
The Cobb Tuning car is running 17x11 wheels. From looking at them, I think the did a poor job of determining backspacing for the wheels and left a lot of space inside the fenders. Hence the need for the HUGE widebody kit. From my calculations, my 10.5" wide wheels will only stick out about 1.5-2 inches past the fenders.
| Uber Wagon | 02-24-2006 05:53 PM |
I have a quesiton relevant to this thread: Most commerical widebody kits that I have seen (APR's latest comes to mind) have some kind of stick on flare that mounts on the door in addition to the stick on flare over the rear fender. Are these illegal for SM and/or SP becuase the mount on the door? I was thinking maybe they are okay under the SM no weenie rule since they are just for looks and don't reduce the weight. Comments?
| PhilC | 02-24-2006 09:24 PM |
I remember that the IS300 that was doing well in DSP two years ago before it was sold had a custom widebody that looked awesome and involved the rear doors as well. If I remember right the rear doors basically had a fibreglass add-on that made the widebody merge from the fender into the doors. When you opened them it was as if the rear of the door was 3" thick at the back.
Looked absolutely awesome, but I recall the owner saying the cost of making it look good really wasn't worth it.
Looked absolutely awesome, but I recall the owner saying the cost of making it look good really wasn't worth it.
| sciolist | 02-25-2006 01:36 PM |
[QUOTE=crystalhelix]The key point is that the "flares" don't make the car any faster. That's why people generally just let the tire stick out of the fender.[/QUOTE]
Agreed in principle, but there are limitations to the practicality of that idea. Let's assume that a given driver knows which suspension components, alignment settings and tires are going to be the fastest. Let's also assume that said driver actually has the skills to exploit all of these items (we are assuming a lot :) ).
Okay, relative to a stock fender, there is going to be some work that needs to be done in order for the car to function properly, which is to say, in order for it to be as fast as it can be. Panel tweaking, flares, wide body kit, sawzall, whatever. Something is going to be needed in order to take proper advantage of the car's capability, and in that way flares *do* make the car faster.
The "wide body" idea seems pretty silly to me, but tweaking the fenders is a pragmatic approach for a street-driven car that doesn't want to look like a frankenstein project.
Agreed in principle, but there are limitations to the practicality of that idea. Let's assume that a given driver knows which suspension components, alignment settings and tires are going to be the fastest. Let's also assume that said driver actually has the skills to exploit all of these items (we are assuming a lot :) ).
Okay, relative to a stock fender, there is going to be some work that needs to be done in order for the car to function properly, which is to say, in order for it to be as fast as it can be. Panel tweaking, flares, wide body kit, sawzall, whatever. Something is going to be needed in order to take proper advantage of the car's capability, and in that way flares *do* make the car faster.
The "wide body" idea seems pretty silly to me, but tweaking the fenders is a pragmatic approach for a street-driven car that doesn't want to look like a frankenstein project.
| crystalhelix | 02-25-2006 02:03 PM |
I meant tweaking fenders was good, widebody not needed.
Don't be so literal sciolist, lol.
Justin
Don't be so literal sciolist, lol.
Justin
| Homemade WRX | 02-25-2006 06:05 PM |
I like the chop a lot...I too am looking to cut my fenders and widen them for some tires bigger than 225.... :lol:
my tires are tiny
my tires are tiny
| trhoppe | 02-25-2006 07:12 PM |
Are you guys building show cars or something, or race cars?
This is really really easy. Cut the front fenders, slightly cut the rear fenders and fit 285s on. This isn't difficult. Do you want to win or waste a bunch of money on goofy ass fenders for no reason. edit: This is also all thats needed with 315/35/17 and I don't think you need a wider tire then that.
[img]http://www.tomhoppe.com/pictures/04_09_15%20SCCA%20Nationals/images/IMG_0551.jpg[/img]
-Tom
This is really really easy. Cut the front fenders, slightly cut the rear fenders and fit 285s on. This isn't difficult. Do you want to win or waste a bunch of money on goofy ass fenders for no reason. edit: This is also all thats needed with 315/35/17 and I don't think you need a wider tire then that.
[img]http://www.tomhoppe.com/pictures/04_09_15%20SCCA%20Nationals/images/IMG_0551.jpg[/img]
-Tom
| adhowe70 | 02-25-2006 07:26 PM |
Wow... for once I have to agree with Tom. A little nip here and a tuck there and wide tires fit fine. If you're willing to butcher your car for flares, a little trimming should be no big deal.
| Scooby South | 02-25-2006 09:21 PM |
As a competitor in BSP...I don't think the extra width is worth any time on course....obviously depending on the type of course. your running...You could actually give up time on certain types of courses...because you need more room to get thru the course....I agree with Tom on Tires...I raced against some guys in my class that were running 305 front and 335 rears...and still beat them ..
Bill
[IMG]http://www.scoobysouth.net/SCCA034.jpg[/IMG]
Bill
[IMG]http://www.scoobysouth.net/SCCA034.jpg[/IMG]
| crystalhelix | 02-25-2006 10:40 PM |
Me likes me some flat black rims...nice car SS! :D
| gregr01 | 02-25-2006 11:58 PM |
No doubt there are easier, less expensive and just as effective ways to get wide tires (315) on an STi. I agree that anything more than that is unnecessary for a 3200lb car. I'm also considering a balance of the race wheel/tire with whatever I'd use for street. 285/30/18 on 10" wide wheels sounds reasonable for filling up the fender without going crazy for occasional street use.
So, show car? No. Race car? No. Something in between? Yes. I've done the trailer-only race car, and streetable race car, and now I want something more-or-less in between, only with the intended competition use autox instead of road racing--with a lot of aesthetic appeal. Will it end up with flares? Maybe. That's why I wanted to explore options in this thread.
So, show car? No. Race car? No. Something in between? Yes. I've done the trailer-only race car, and streetable race car, and now I want something more-or-less in between, only with the intended competition use autox instead of road racing--with a lot of aesthetic appeal. Will it end up with flares? Maybe. That's why I wanted to explore options in this thread.
| trhoppe | 02-26-2006 12:01 AM |
So to cliff note it. You don't care about winning, but want to run 285s and fender flares? Why? Are you just trying to have people in the members gallery section say "ooo ahhhh flares"?
-Tom
-Tom
| Whiteghost 2.5 | 02-26-2006 12:08 AM |
[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a212/Whiteghost25/DSC03299.jpg[/IMG]
rolled the fender and flared it a little, 275's fit nicely.
rolled the fender and flared it a little, 275's fit nicely.
| gregr01 | 02-26-2006 12:34 AM |
I am absolutely interested in winning. There is little enjoyment for me if I don't have a decent shot of finishing "on the podium."
I'm already "winning" local SM "Open," but I'm still a second or more in pax behind Sortor, as well as behind one or two SM drivers that run in other local categories. I would very much like to be able to post TTOD or TPOD at local events (last event we had 196 entrants), but realistically I can only do that in an STi with a [I]very[/I] prepared car--and even then I'd need to improve my skills as well.
I'm also looking to do a few national events in '07, if I can consistently get in the top-5 pax or so at local events.
The nut of this thread, then, is what are my options for getting 315s on my '04? What are others doing for flares to accommodate 11-inch wide wheels?
I'm already "winning" local SM "Open," but I'm still a second or more in pax behind Sortor, as well as behind one or two SM drivers that run in other local categories. I would very much like to be able to post TTOD or TPOD at local events (last event we had 196 entrants), but realistically I can only do that in an STi with a [I]very[/I] prepared car--and even then I'd need to improve my skills as well.
I'm also looking to do a few national events in '07, if I can consistently get in the top-5 pax or so at local events.
The nut of this thread, then, is what are my options for getting 315s on my '04? What are others doing for flares to accommodate 11-inch wide wheels?
| crystalhelix | 02-26-2006 12:39 AM |
[QUOTE]What are others doing for flares to accommodate 11-inch wide wheels?[/QUOTE]
Hacking,bending,flaring/pulling as we've said before. AFAIK no one that is self campaigning a car is spending money on a widebody, SloRice has toyed with the idea of doing it next year, but his SM car is way sweeter than mine so there might be reason to spend the flow...
If you money is endless, send me some, lol. :devil: I can spend it, trust me.
Hacking,bending,flaring/pulling as we've said before. AFAIK no one that is self campaigning a car is spending money on a widebody, SloRice has toyed with the idea of doing it next year, but his SM car is way sweeter than mine so there might be reason to spend the flow...
If you money is endless, send me some, lol. :devil: I can spend it, trust me.
| Patrick Olsen | 02-26-2006 09:16 AM |
[QUOTE=Whiteghost 2.5]rolled the fender and flared it a little, 275's fit nicely.[/QUOTE]
Wow, that's impressive on a GC. What are the wheel specs, and what suspension are you running? (Specifically, what spring rates?)
Pat Olsen
'97 Legacy 2.5GT sedan - [i]can only fit 225s[/i]
Wow, that's impressive on a GC. What are the wheel specs, and what suspension are you running? (Specifically, what spring rates?)
Pat Olsen
'97 Legacy 2.5GT sedan - [i]can only fit 225s[/i]
| WRX8XB | 02-26-2006 10:26 PM |
the wheels are 17x8 +35mm offset.
275 V710s
(he's driving home from our Homestead Event that was today, so i figured i'd chime in with his wheel specs).
EDIT: Josh is running Group4's not sure on the spring rate.
275 V710s
(he's driving home from our Homestead Event that was today, so i figured i'd chime in with his wheel specs).
EDIT: Josh is running Group4's not sure on the spring rate.
| Patrick Olsen | 02-28-2006 07:03 AM |
I'm definitely curious about the spring rates. I didn't think the G4's were all that high, and I know if I had tires sticking out past the fenders like that in the rear on my car I'd rub the hell out of them (even with 300#ish spring rates and big swaybar).
Pat
Pat
| AUTOwrXER | 02-28-2006 04:39 PM |
The problem with the widebody option is that:
1) It is uber expensive to modify the existing fenders as opposed to replacing them (the first is allowed, the second isn't); I was quoted $12k
2) There is no allowance to modify the rear door, and the widebody would look retarded without doing so.
1) It is uber expensive to modify the existing fenders as opposed to replacing them (the first is allowed, the second isn't); I was quoted $12k
2) There is no allowance to modify the rear door, and the widebody would look retarded without doing so.
| SloRice | 02-28-2006 05:41 PM |
[QUOTE=crystalhelix]SloRice has toyed with the idea of doing it next year[/QUOTE]
If I can ever get Hoppe to send me some pictures :furious: :p , I'd probably just cut the front and rear fenders and throw some mudflaps on the car to attempt to save my paint. The widebody was just a thought, nothing more as I'm a cheap bastard and don't feel like spending usless money.
If I can ever get Hoppe to send me some pictures :furious: :p , I'd probably just cut the front and rear fenders and throw some mudflaps on the car to attempt to save my paint. The widebody was just a thought, nothing more as I'm a cheap bastard and don't feel like spending usless money.
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