| makofoto | 03-31-2004 12:18 AM |
Camber Study ACTION PHOTOS
�
�
[IMG]http://images5.fotki.com/v67/photos/4/43793/818953/camberstudy2-vi.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://images5.fotki.com/v67/photos/4/43793/818953/camberstudy-vi.jpg[/IMG]
Here are some video grabs taken during one of my runs on my Victoracer destroying day at Hollywood Park practice day last Sunday ... with Beverlee Larsson on board trying to help break my bad habits ...
About - 3.25 camber in front, about - 2.0 in the rear. NRX camber plate ... which adds + .5 castor, Hotchkis Sway bars ... rear full soft. Tein Wagon Coil overs. 17 X 7.5 SSR's w/ 225/45/17 Victoracers, 48 PSI warm in front, 44 in the rear.
What else does it take to keep the outside front wheel from going positive !?
[IMG]http://images5.fotki.com/v67/photos/4/43793/818953/camberstudy-vi.jpg[/IMG]
Here are some video grabs taken during one of my runs on my Victoracer destroying day at Hollywood Park practice day last Sunday ... with Beverlee Larsson on board trying to help break my bad habits ...
About - 3.25 camber in front, about - 2.0 in the rear. NRX camber plate ... which adds + .5 castor, Hotchkis Sway bars ... rear full soft. Tein Wagon Coil overs. 17 X 7.5 SSR's w/ 225/45/17 Victoracers, 48 PSI warm in front, 44 in the rear.
What else does it take to keep the outside front wheel from going positive !?
| Storm | 03-31-2004 01:09 AM |
No way the fronts are at -3.5* static. If they were, the front inside wheel would look like it was about to fall off while the outside front would be flat to the ground in those shots.
You still have too much bodyroll, so more camber is what you're going to have to do unless you get that thing to corner a little flatter. I have some shots of our car in maximum cornering force that clearly show what I describe. Our fronts are at about -2.5. We roasted the inside edges from wheelspin until we put the Quaife in. Now we just spin the rears.....dang RS's.....too much torque! Okay....maybe just 'ours'.....look at our photo albums for some cornering shots. Although, those may be from prior to the last suspension upgrade....must update site......
Jay Storm
[url]www.sourcemotorsports.com[/url]
You still have too much bodyroll, so more camber is what you're going to have to do unless you get that thing to corner a little flatter. I have some shots of our car in maximum cornering force that clearly show what I describe. Our fronts are at about -2.5. We roasted the inside edges from wheelspin until we put the Quaife in. Now we just spin the rears.....dang RS's.....too much torque! Okay....maybe just 'ours'.....look at our photo albums for some cornering shots. Although, those may be from prior to the last suspension upgrade....must update site......
Jay Storm
[url]www.sourcemotorsports.com[/url]
| drees | 03-31-2004 01:49 AM |
Have you been able to check tire temps?
In the bottom pic, the fronts do appear to have more + camber than the rears, you must have some dynamic camber adjustment being made due to flex somewhere. Could be time for stiffer bushings in the suspension pivot points if you want to keep dynamic changes to a minimum.
In the bottom pic, the fronts do appear to have more + camber than the rears, you must have some dynamic camber adjustment being made due to flex somewhere. Could be time for stiffer bushings in the suspension pivot points if you want to keep dynamic changes to a minimum.
| makofoto | 03-31-2004 02:41 AM |
Jay ... doesn't the lower photo show a lot of neg. camber on the inside front tire ... ?
temp checks were done with the camber setttings at - 2.5 ... not -3 +
temp checks were done with the camber setttings at - 2.5 ... not -3 +
| Kostamojen | 03-31-2004 04:25 AM |
Re: Camber Study ACTION PHOTOS
�
�
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by makofoto [/i]
[B]What else does it take to keep the outside front wheel from going positive !? [/B][/QUOTE]
Im going to go out on a limb here and say you have two ways:
1) stiff as heck suspension (even stiffer than the teins)
2) loose a heck of alot of weight off the car
[B]What else does it take to keep the outside front wheel from going positive !? [/B][/QUOTE]
Im going to go out on a limb here and say you have two ways:
1) stiff as heck suspension (even stiffer than the teins)
2) loose a heck of alot of weight off the car
| Storm | 03-31-2004 07:05 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by makofoto [/i]
[B]Jay ... doesn't the lower photo show a lot of neg. camber on the inside front tire ... ?
temp checks were done with the camber setttings at - 2.5 ... not -3 + [/B][/QUOTE] Not really....I see more steering angle change than camber gain on the inside wheel. There is 'some' camber change, but not to the levels you described.
If this site would allow attatching photos, I'd show you exactly what I meant. I can email you some pics if you want....
Jay Storm
[url]www.sourcemotorsports.com[/url]
[B]Jay ... doesn't the lower photo show a lot of neg. camber on the inside front tire ... ?
temp checks were done with the camber setttings at - 2.5 ... not -3 + [/B][/QUOTE] Not really....I see more steering angle change than camber gain on the inside wheel. There is 'some' camber change, but not to the levels you described.
If this site would allow attatching photos, I'd show you exactly what I meant. I can email you some pics if you want....
Jay Storm
[url]www.sourcemotorsports.com[/url]
| KC | 03-31-2004 07:48 AM |
I concur that there's something going on.
Those pics show like you have positive camber in the turn under load, you're getting some kind of dynamic camber change that's adding camber.
[IMG]http://www.scca.org/news/04-KCasey.jpg[/IMG]
Thanks SCCA.
I don't know if you can see it, but my suspension is fully loaded and the tire on the inside of the turn is bent IN, a lot. You can't really see the outside, but other pictures that I'll see if I can find today, tonight show the outside tire almost flat. And that's -3.0 camber.
Just something to start with.
Jay, you can upload your pics to [url]http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/[/url]
--kC
Those pics show like you have positive camber in the turn under load, you're getting some kind of dynamic camber change that's adding camber.
[IMG]http://www.scca.org/news/04-KCasey.jpg[/IMG]
Thanks SCCA.
I don't know if you can see it, but my suspension is fully loaded and the tire on the inside of the turn is bent IN, a lot. You can't really see the outside, but other pictures that I'll see if I can find today, tonight show the outside tire almost flat. And that's -3.0 camber.
Just something to start with.
Jay, you can upload your pics to [url]http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/[/url]
--kC
| MNbiker | 03-31-2004 08:08 AM |
Definitely some big-time camber loss going on under cornering. :eek: Since you already have camber plates & big-$ss anti-sway bars, the likely culprit is those squishy-soft springs you're running. Your spring rates are less than half those on KC's car, and you're running stickier tires. You could go with even larger bars, but a more straightforward (and IMHO better) fix would be to up the spring rates to something that can handle your cornering forces.
-Steve
-Steve
| trhoppe | 03-31-2004 10:10 AM |
Here are some action photos from nationals
[img]http://www.showcase-photo.com/Photos/SCCA/Topeka/South/Fri/Heat%204/DSC_3884.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.showcase-photo.com/Photos/SCCA/Topeka/South/Fri/Heat%204/DSC_3796.jpg[/img]
Notice the outside wheel has 0 camber. Holy hell do you have some serious camber loss. I would get real springs and raise the car a tad. You will run into a very bad camber curve once you get the car too low. Especially with those butter soft Tein wagons.
-Tom
[img]http://www.showcase-photo.com/Photos/SCCA/Topeka/South/Fri/Heat%204/DSC_3884.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.showcase-photo.com/Photos/SCCA/Topeka/South/Fri/Heat%204/DSC_3796.jpg[/img]
Notice the outside wheel has 0 camber. Holy hell do you have some serious camber loss. I would get real springs and raise the car a tad. You will run into a very bad camber curve once you get the car too low. Especially with those butter soft Tein wagons.
-Tom
| sdecker | 03-31-2004 10:17 AM |
Ahhh...now we're getting somewhere. I just knew that something had to be going wrong to kill those Victoracers while running -2.5 or more camber.
Scott
Scott
| trhoppe | 03-31-2004 10:19 AM |
Last but not least, you have too much rear camber. Its very hard to get the car to rotate with -2.0 rear camber. You will end up with push and killing the outside fronts. With springs that soft, I would try -1 rear camber.
-Tom
-Tom
| Patrick L | 03-31-2004 10:28 AM |
I maybe no help as I was running -3 front and -2 rear but I was running a soft springs with 300lbs.
[img]http://www.okscca.org/10-26-2003/Grubster/images/PA268981.jpg[/img]
I'll be going to 400f and 500r this season as soo as I get my struts back. :mad:
[img]http://www.okscca.org/10-26-2003/Grubster/images/PA268981.jpg[/img]
I'll be going to 400f and 500r this season as soo as I get my struts back. :mad:
| KC | 03-31-2004 10:34 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Top_Dog[/i]
[B] I maybe no help as I was running -3 front and -2 rear but I was running a soft springs with 300lbs.[/B][/QUOTE]
On a car that's about 200-300lbs lighter.
[B] I maybe no help as I was running -3 front and -2 rear but I was running a soft springs with 300lbs.[/B][/QUOTE]
On a car that's about 200-300lbs lighter.
| jmott | 03-31-2004 10:43 AM |
Re: Camber Study ACTION PHOTOS
�
�
you need a car with a low center of gravity and better camber curves from the front suspension geometry and wider track.
see corvette =)
or yeah, stiffer springs
=)
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by makofoto [/i]
[B][IMG]http://images5.fotki.com/v67/photos/4/43793/818953/camberstudy2-vi.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://images5.fotki.com/v67/photos/4/43793/818953/camberstudy-vi.jpg[/IMG]
Here are some video grabs taken during one of my runs on my Victoracer destroying day at Hollywood Park practice day last Sunday ... with Beverlee Larsson on board trying to help break my bad habits ...
About - 3.25 camber in front, about - 2.0 in the rear. NRX camber plate ... which adds + .5 castor, Hotchkis Sway bars ... rear full soft. Tein Wagon Coil overs. 17 X 7.5 SSR's w/ 225/45/17 Victoracers, 48 PSI warm in front, 44 in the rear.
What else does it take to keep the outside front wheel from going positive !? [/B][/QUOTE]
see corvette =)
or yeah, stiffer springs
=)
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by makofoto [/i]
[B][IMG]http://images5.fotki.com/v67/photos/4/43793/818953/camberstudy2-vi.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://images5.fotki.com/v67/photos/4/43793/818953/camberstudy-vi.jpg[/IMG]
Here are some video grabs taken during one of my runs on my Victoracer destroying day at Hollywood Park practice day last Sunday ... with Beverlee Larsson on board trying to help break my bad habits ...
About - 3.25 camber in front, about - 2.0 in the rear. NRX camber plate ... which adds + .5 castor, Hotchkis Sway bars ... rear full soft. Tein Wagon Coil overs. 17 X 7.5 SSR's w/ 225/45/17 Victoracers, 48 PSI warm in front, 44 in the rear.
What else does it take to keep the outside front wheel from going positive !? [/B][/QUOTE]
| Patrick L | 03-31-2004 10:44 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC [/i]
[B]On a car that's about 200-300lbs lighter. [/B][/QUOTE]
:p
[B]On a car that's about 200-300lbs lighter. [/B][/QUOTE]
:p
| WRXIN | 03-31-2004 11:55 AM |
Mako is an auto-x buddy of mine. We email back and forth all day...
He has a habit of overdriving his car entering turns and he admits it :) and he's working on it. But like you all said, something is not right and he's losing all the negative camber he has dialed in.
I just traded my wagon for an STi, but before the STi, Mako and I exchanged ideas and opinions about our wagons.
I had a very simple (read: cheap) setup. Stock struts, Prodrive springs, Tein camber plates, rear strut bar, rear stock sedan sway bar,and the same Kumhos. No other mods, no power, nothing. I did quite well with the setup.
I ran -3.7 camber in the front for events and it worked great for me. I think the tein camber plates add 3 degrees of static caster. And I think that's part of Mako's problem. His camber plates don't add much caster. (.5 degrees I think)
I have a perfect picture that shows my outside wheel at 0 camber and the inside tipping in nicely in a hard turn. Its too big to post in this message.
If someone could host this picture, I'll gladly email it to them (1mb picture)
Also, does anyone know what the spring rate of the Prodrive springs is?
Mako has tons of money in his setup and I think he has too many different pieces that are all fighting with each other at this stage. A bigger rear sway bar to offset the big front one, camber plates to offset understeer, coilovers that don't seem to be doing the job, rear camber dialed up to offset oversteer, etc. He's lost in a myriad of fixes and nothing seems to be working together. Each part is fixing a problem that is perhaps caused by a previous part. Know what I mean?
-Mark
He has a habit of overdriving his car entering turns and he admits it :) and he's working on it. But like you all said, something is not right and he's losing all the negative camber he has dialed in.
I just traded my wagon for an STi, but before the STi, Mako and I exchanged ideas and opinions about our wagons.
I had a very simple (read: cheap) setup. Stock struts, Prodrive springs, Tein camber plates, rear strut bar, rear stock sedan sway bar,and the same Kumhos. No other mods, no power, nothing. I did quite well with the setup.
I ran -3.7 camber in the front for events and it worked great for me. I think the tein camber plates add 3 degrees of static caster. And I think that's part of Mako's problem. His camber plates don't add much caster. (.5 degrees I think)
I have a perfect picture that shows my outside wheel at 0 camber and the inside tipping in nicely in a hard turn. Its too big to post in this message.
If someone could host this picture, I'll gladly email it to them (1mb picture)
Also, does anyone know what the spring rate of the Prodrive springs is?
Mako has tons of money in his setup and I think he has too many different pieces that are all fighting with each other at this stage. A bigger rear sway bar to offset the big front one, camber plates to offset understeer, coilovers that don't seem to be doing the job, rear camber dialed up to offset oversteer, etc. He's lost in a myriad of fixes and nothing seems to be working together. Each part is fixing a problem that is perhaps caused by a previous part. Know what I mean?
-Mark
| KC | 03-31-2004 12:08 PM |
[QUOTE]Mako has tons of money in his setup and I think he has too many different pieces that are all fighting with each other at this stage. [/QUOTE] With the exception of the Tein Wagon suspension, I'd probably agree. That's the weak point in this whole thing. The Prodrive springs are about 25lbs more than what he's got on there now.
Like I said in another thread regarding suspension....
Good
Stiff
Cheap
Pick any two.
--kC
Like I said in another thread regarding suspension....
Good
Stiff
Cheap
Pick any two.
--kC
| sdecker | 03-31-2004 12:19 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by WRXIN [/i]
[B]
Also, does anyone know what the spring rate of the Prodrive springs is?
Mako has tons of money in his setup and I think he has too many different pieces that are all fighting with each other at this stage. A bigger rear sway bar to offset the big front one, camber plates to offset understeer, coilovers that don't seem to be doing the job, rear camber dialed up to offset oversteer, etc. He's lost in a myriad of fixes and nothing seems to be working together. Each part is fixing a problem that is perhaps caused by a previous part. Know what I mean?
-Mark [/B][/QUOTE]
Prodrive doesn't officially release their spring rates for them. However, they are commonly said to be 215F/195R, which seems about right. I was one of the early adopters (Feb 02) and later put Konis and Cusco camber plates on the car. This setup works like a champ.
This sounds like one of those cases where the sum of the parts is less than the whole. I would suggest a total re-evaluation, beginning with raising the ride height to 13.5" all around, corner weighting, and generally less 'aggressive' settings. Use alignments, spring rates, and sway bar settings recommended by the experts on this board (of which I'm not one).
Following the 'domino theory' you suggested above, where
[QUOTE]Each part is fixing a problem that is perhaps caused by a previous part. [/QUOTE]
Think about it -- what is the FIRST part that affects how your car handles? I'd start there. ;)
Scott
[B]
Also, does anyone know what the spring rate of the Prodrive springs is?
Mako has tons of money in his setup and I think he has too many different pieces that are all fighting with each other at this stage. A bigger rear sway bar to offset the big front one, camber plates to offset understeer, coilovers that don't seem to be doing the job, rear camber dialed up to offset oversteer, etc. He's lost in a myriad of fixes and nothing seems to be working together. Each part is fixing a problem that is perhaps caused by a previous part. Know what I mean?
-Mark [/B][/QUOTE]
Prodrive doesn't officially release their spring rates for them. However, they are commonly said to be 215F/195R, which seems about right. I was one of the early adopters (Feb 02) and later put Konis and Cusco camber plates on the car. This setup works like a champ.
This sounds like one of those cases where the sum of the parts is less than the whole. I would suggest a total re-evaluation, beginning with raising the ride height to 13.5" all around, corner weighting, and generally less 'aggressive' settings. Use alignments, spring rates, and sway bar settings recommended by the experts on this board (of which I'm not one).
Following the 'domino theory' you suggested above, where
[QUOTE]Each part is fixing a problem that is perhaps caused by a previous part. [/QUOTE]
Think about it -- what is the FIRST part that affects how your car handles? I'd start there. ;)
Scott
| ExitVisa | 03-31-2004 01:09 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC [/i]
[B]
Good
Stiff
Cheap
Pick any two.
--kC [/B][/QUOTE]
That should be right at the top of a suspension faq.
[B]
Good
Stiff
Cheap
Pick any two.
--kC [/B][/QUOTE]
That should be right at the top of a suspension faq.
| Patrick L | 03-31-2004 01:21 PM |
Yeah, I got a shop here in town that made my springs for me for $37 a peice.
[url]http://www.cannonracecraft.com/[/url]
[url]http://www.cannonracecraft.com/[/url]
| Kostamojen | 04-01-2004 02:53 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC [/i]
[B]Good
Stiff
Cheap
Pick any two.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Good @ Cheap :confused:
[B]Good
Stiff
Cheap
Pick any two.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Good @ Cheap :confused:
| KC | 04-01-2004 07:29 AM |
:lol: yeah... good.... you know... good!
ie: built at least half way decent....
--kC
ie: built at least half way decent....
--kC
| afpdl | 04-01-2004 03:02 PM |
I now know why you have to run such high pressures on victos. I dont think there is a way to correct that significantly without going to stiffer springs or liberal use of a sawsall.
| sdecker | 04-01-2004 03:13 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by afpdl [/i]
[B]I now know why you have to run such high pressures on victos.[/B][/QUOTE]
Right -- that's the same thing I was thinking. Mako's pressures are way WAY higher than I've ever had to run mine, even without the benefit of negative camber.
So...Makofoto -- what are you going to do? I didn't see you come back and update the thread. I'm curious as to your solution at this point.
Scott
[B]I now know why you have to run such high pressures on victos.[/B][/QUOTE]
Right -- that's the same thing I was thinking. Mako's pressures are way WAY higher than I've ever had to run mine, even without the benefit of negative camber.
So...Makofoto -- what are you going to do? I didn't see you come back and update the thread. I'm curious as to your solution at this point.
Scott
| afpdl | 04-01-2004 03:16 PM |
My victos are more then 10psi lower then his, and Im running less static camber. My rates are a good bit higher though.
| lukerussell | 04-01-2004 05:17 PM |
What do you think my problem is? Is it because I'm partially airborne? :)
[IMG]http://www.playmoreonline.com/luke/onelap27.jpg[/IMG]
Tom is hooked up, that is a nice pic. I went to Sebring this weekend in a Stock STeye. If I can find a good pic, I'll post it. I bet the camber is way horrible.
Luke
[IMG]http://www.playmoreonline.com/luke/onelap27.jpg[/IMG]
Tom is hooked up, that is a nice pic. I went to Sebring this weekend in a Stock STeye. If I can find a good pic, I'll post it. I bet the camber is way horrible.
Luke
| TV3WRX | 04-01-2004 07:01 PM |
Bump Steer
�
�
Have any of you done a bump steer measurement/adjustment, or is that not allowed per class rules? If it is legal, wouldn't it help the camber loss situation?
I have only just begun to learn more about bump steer geometry, but in talking with a race team engineer a few days ago, he said that on most cars it is a critical adjustment to make for a race setup.
I have only just begun to learn more about bump steer geometry, but in talking with a race team engineer a few days ago, he said that on most cars it is a critical adjustment to make for a race setup.
| makofoto | 04-02-2004 01:32 AM |
It's great that with everyones help and input ... we seem to have solved my handling problems ... not enough money spent in the correct place ... springs! And I thought that all I had to do was top off my previous mods with a smaller MOMO competition steering wheel ... and I'd have a fast car ... :lol:
Actually, I was waiting to find out if the hot set-up would be these ProDrive Active Suspension dampners: [url]http://www.prodrive-usa.com/product_detail.asp?yid=219&cid=10&pid=76&s=[/url]
... which are suppose to become available in June.
Of course now (post divorce) I might not have the extra money for that fancy set-up ... so I'll solicit suggestions as to what I should get ... stiffer springs to use with my Tein Wagon Coil overs ... or is there a reasonable coil over set-up that I should consider ... ?
Actually, I was waiting to find out if the hot set-up would be these ProDrive Active Suspension dampners: [url]http://www.prodrive-usa.com/product_detail.asp?yid=219&cid=10&pid=76&s=[/url]
... which are suppose to become available in June.
Of course now (post divorce) I might not have the extra money for that fancy set-up ... so I'll solicit suggestions as to what I should get ... stiffer springs to use with my Tein Wagon Coil overs ... or is there a reasonable coil over set-up that I should consider ... ?
| afpdl | 04-02-2004 02:35 AM |
You could also try struts with no compression:lol:
| Treefallen | 04-02-2004 01:02 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by lukerussell[/i]
[B]
Tom is hooked up, that is a nice pic. I went to Sebring this weekend in a Stock STeye. If I can find a good pic, I'll post it. I bet the camber is way horrible.
Luke [/B][/QUOTE]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by lukerussell[/i]
[B] What do you think my problem is? Is it because I'm partially airborne? :)
[IMG]http://www.playmoreonline.com/luke/onelap27.jpg[/IMG]
Tom is hooked up, that is a nice pic. I went to Sebring this weekend in a Stock STeye. If I can find a good pic, I'll post it. I bet the camber is way horrible.
Luke [/B][/QUOTE]
Here are a couple of picts (courtesy of James Horton at [url]www.just-me.com[/url]) that show what soft springs do on a stock STi...
[IMG]http://www.just-me.com/TWS%20Nov%2015%202003/49/images/49DSC_5051.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.just-me.com/TWS%20Nov%2015%202003/49/images/49DSC_5078.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.just-me.com/TWS%20Nov%2015%202003/49/images/49DSC_5079.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.just-me.com/TWS%20Nov%2015%202003/49/images/49DSC_5093.jpg[/IMG]
[B]
Tom is hooked up, that is a nice pic. I went to Sebring this weekend in a Stock STeye. If I can find a good pic, I'll post it. I bet the camber is way horrible.
Luke [/B][/QUOTE]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by lukerussell[/i]
[B] What do you think my problem is? Is it because I'm partially airborne? :)
[IMG]http://www.playmoreonline.com/luke/onelap27.jpg[/IMG]
Tom is hooked up, that is a nice pic. I went to Sebring this weekend in a Stock STeye. If I can find a good pic, I'll post it. I bet the camber is way horrible.
Luke [/B][/QUOTE]
Here are a couple of picts (courtesy of James Horton at [url]www.just-me.com[/url]) that show what soft springs do on a stock STi...
[IMG]http://www.just-me.com/TWS%20Nov%2015%202003/49/images/49DSC_5051.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.just-me.com/TWS%20Nov%2015%202003/49/images/49DSC_5078.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.just-me.com/TWS%20Nov%2015%202003/49/images/49DSC_5079.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.just-me.com/TWS%20Nov%2015%202003/49/images/49DSC_5093.jpg[/IMG]
| ChrisW | 04-02-2004 11:37 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by WRXIN [/i]
[B]
I have a perfect picture that shows my outside wheel at 0 camber and the inside tipping in nicely in a hard turn. Its too big to post in this message.
If someone could host this picture, I'll gladly email it to them (1mb picture)
-Mark [/B][/QUOTE]
here ya go! I like that pic of mako's wagon!! :cool:
[SIZE=1][COLOR=red]size warning to the bandwidth impared![/COLOR] [/SIZE]
[url]http://www.grippybits.com/random/wrxin/autox_59.jpg[/url]
[url]http://www.grippybits.com/random/wrxin/Marck-C-Front-Big-12.03.jpg[/url]
[SIZE=1][COLOR=red]size warning to the bandwidth impared![/COLOR] [/SIZE][IMG]http://www.grippybits.com/random/wrxin/autox_59.jpg[/IMG]
[B]
I have a perfect picture that shows my outside wheel at 0 camber and the inside tipping in nicely in a hard turn. Its too big to post in this message.
If someone could host this picture, I'll gladly email it to them (1mb picture)
-Mark [/B][/QUOTE]
here ya go! I like that pic of mako's wagon!! :cool:
[SIZE=1][COLOR=red]size warning to the bandwidth impared![/COLOR] [/SIZE]
[url]http://www.grippybits.com/random/wrxin/autox_59.jpg[/url]
[url]http://www.grippybits.com/random/wrxin/Marck-C-Front-Big-12.03.jpg[/url]
[SIZE=1][COLOR=red]size warning to the bandwidth impared![/COLOR] [/SIZE][IMG]http://www.grippybits.com/random/wrxin/autox_59.jpg[/IMG]
| JohnW | 04-03-2004 01:26 AM |
Mako,
Come down to run in SD on 4/10 and we can measure your tire temps. I think there is definitely something wrong because I'm running practically the same setup as you know but with normal camber (-1.0 rear and -1.2 front). But, I've found that 36 psi front and 33 psi rear COLD is amost perfect pressure because after a good run at both track and autox, I've measure the temps across the tread and found them to be generally even. I've even reduced pressure after finding the inside to be warmer than outside.
John
- same silver wagon with same damn soft Tein Wagon coilovers and same victoracers ...
Come down to run in SD on 4/10 and we can measure your tire temps. I think there is definitely something wrong because I'm running practically the same setup as you know but with normal camber (-1.0 rear and -1.2 front). But, I've found that 36 psi front and 33 psi rear COLD is amost perfect pressure because after a good run at both track and autox, I've measure the temps across the tread and found them to be generally even. I've even reduced pressure after finding the inside to be warmer than outside.
John
- same silver wagon with same damn soft Tein Wagon coilovers and same victoracers ...
| makofoto | 04-03-2004 02:41 AM |
Hey John ... would love to come down to SD again ... but I don't have any tires to run. :(
Haven't decided what to do tire and suspension/spring wise yet ...
Here are some good examples of negative camber @ work ...
Chris Teague ...
[IMG]http://images5.fotki.com/v57/photos/4/43793/216807/ChrisTeagueCamberStudy-vi.jpg[/IMG]
Mark Coleman ...
[IMG]http://images5.fotki.com/v67/photos/4/43793/216807/MarkCFrontsmall12_03-vi.jpg[/IMG]
Haven't decided what to do tire and suspension/spring wise yet ...
Here are some good examples of negative camber @ work ...
Chris Teague ...
[IMG]http://images5.fotki.com/v57/photos/4/43793/216807/ChrisTeagueCamberStudy-vi.jpg[/IMG]
Mark Coleman ...
[IMG]http://images5.fotki.com/v67/photos/4/43793/216807/MarkCFrontsmall12_03-vi.jpg[/IMG]
| Storm | 04-03-2004 10:06 AM |
The last pics of Teague and Coleman are exactly what I was talking about.
Believe me, you'll know when the front end has the camber working instead of laying over to the outside edge!!!!
Jay Storm
[url]www.sourcemotorsports.com[/url]
Believe me, you'll know when the front end has the camber working instead of laying over to the outside edge!!!!
Jay Storm
[url]www.sourcemotorsports.com[/url]
| dadswrx | 04-03-2004 12:38 PM |
What class does Mark Coleman run (from above photo)?
Mike
02 WRX Wagon
Mike
02 WRX Wagon
| TV3WRX | 04-03-2004 08:55 PM |
....and what setup is he using to get that much camber, and KEEP it when under load?
| drees | 04-03-2004 10:58 PM |
I'm 99% sure that Mark Coleman is WRXIN, he says [URL=http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=496754]here[/URL] that he is running Prodrive springs with front tein camber plates.
| makofoto | 04-03-2004 11:03 PM |
Yah .... Mark Coleman is WRXIN ... he was running a pretty stock WRX in SM ... because he wanted to use R tires ... he has since moved on to a STI ... which he is just starting to AutoX ... in AS I believe ...
| WRXIN | 04-05-2004 01:52 PM |
Yep, the silver wagon in Mako's post is my old WRX.
Chris, thanks for hosting the picture! It looks like Mako went ahead and posted it too.
Mako is right, I ran in SM only because of R tires.
For those of you who don't know this (dumb) rule, you can run in D-Stock and SM with R compound tires, but not STX. Go figure.
Anyhow, this was the setup before I traded in the car for the STi about a month ago:
Prodrive springs
Stock struts
Rear stock sedan sway bar
Rear whiteline strut bar
Tein camber plates (with a modified strut rod bolt for the stock struts)
And the Victoracers
No other mods at all
I could get -3.7 degrees of camber out of the fronts with those camber plates. It worked very well. People were surprised I could go that negative with a stock diameter spring. Truth is I had to very slightly dimple the sides of the strut towers so the springs wouldn't rub at full negative.
My Kumhos tread wear was very good and even. I rotated front to rear for each event. I ended up selling them to a fellow team mate when I got the STi.
Chris posted a picture of my STi as well, just for comparison of suspension setups. In that picture, the camber on the outside wheel doesn't look bad to me.
Edit: one other thing: notice my rear wheel and the slightly positive camber. I didn't install anything to change the rear camber so it was sitting stock at a static setting of -1.3. I tried everything I could to losen up the rear and that slightly positive effect in turns helped. I wish Subaru made the rear camber adjustable from the factory...
-Mark
Chris, thanks for hosting the picture! It looks like Mako went ahead and posted it too.
Mako is right, I ran in SM only because of R tires.
For those of you who don't know this (dumb) rule, you can run in D-Stock and SM with R compound tires, but not STX. Go figure.
Anyhow, this was the setup before I traded in the car for the STi about a month ago:
Prodrive springs
Stock struts
Rear stock sedan sway bar
Rear whiteline strut bar
Tein camber plates (with a modified strut rod bolt for the stock struts)
And the Victoracers
No other mods at all
I could get -3.7 degrees of camber out of the fronts with those camber plates. It worked very well. People were surprised I could go that negative with a stock diameter spring. Truth is I had to very slightly dimple the sides of the strut towers so the springs wouldn't rub at full negative.
My Kumhos tread wear was very good and even. I rotated front to rear for each event. I ended up selling them to a fellow team mate when I got the STi.
Chris posted a picture of my STi as well, just for comparison of suspension setups. In that picture, the camber on the outside wheel doesn't look bad to me.
Edit: one other thing: notice my rear wheel and the slightly positive camber. I didn't install anything to change the rear camber so it was sitting stock at a static setting of -1.3. I tried everything I could to losen up the rear and that slightly positive effect in turns helped. I wish Subaru made the rear camber adjustable from the factory...
-Mark
| afpdl | 04-05-2004 05:07 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by WRXIN[/i]
[B]
Mako is right, I ran in SM only because of R tires.
For those of you who don't know this (dumb) rule, you can run in D-Stock and SM with R compound tires, but not STX. Go figure.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Umm the whole point of stx is to allow street prepared like mods and be able to be competitive on street tires. If you want do do stx mods and run R compounds thats what ESP is for
:huh:
[B]
Mako is right, I ran in SM only because of R tires.
For those of you who don't know this (dumb) rule, you can run in D-Stock and SM with R compound tires, but not STX. Go figure.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Umm the whole point of stx is to allow street prepared like mods and be able to be competitive on street tires. If you want do do stx mods and run R compounds thats what ESP is for
:huh:
| WRXIN | 04-05-2004 06:44 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by afpdl [/i]
[B]Umm the whole point of stx is to allow street prepared like mods and be able to be competitive on street tires. If you want do do stx mods and run R compounds thats what ESP is for
:huh: [/B][/QUOTE]
Yea, I understand that... ST stands for street tire... got it.
Maybe I didnt explain my point very well. My point is: why is D [B]STOCK[/B] allowed to run with R compound tires?
BTW, I really don't want to start a whole auto-x class debate. I was just making an observation.
[B]Umm the whole point of stx is to allow street prepared like mods and be able to be competitive on street tires. If you want do do stx mods and run R compounds thats what ESP is for
:huh: [/B][/QUOTE]
Yea, I understand that... ST stands for street tire... got it.
Maybe I didnt explain my point very well. My point is: why is D [B]STOCK[/B] allowed to run with R compound tires?
BTW, I really don't want to start a whole auto-x class debate. I was just making an observation.
| afpdl | 04-05-2004 08:00 PM |
Ok by the way you phrased it the first time I thought you were surprized you coudlnt run them in stx. I can understand the stock thing though.
| dwx | 04-05-2004 08:22 PM |
That stock tire thing is a whole nother argument. It stems from the fact that even not too long ago, non r-compound tires sucked, a lot. No Azenis or Kuhmo MXs, etc. I think if those tires had existed a long time ago, things would be different, but that's not the case.
As for camber, I destroyed a set of V700s in my SM WRX in short order not having enough camber in the front. It just ate up the outside edges. Doing events on concrete in Peru completey did them in. This year I'm running Hoosiers and I'll have as much camber as my ground control plates allow.
As for camber, I destroyed a set of V700s in my SM WRX in short order not having enough camber in the front. It just ate up the outside edges. Doing events on concrete in Peru completey did them in. This year I'm running Hoosiers and I'll have as much camber as my ground control plates allow.
| dadswrx | 04-05-2004 08:30 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by dwx [/i]
[B]That stock tire thing is a whole nother argument. It stems from the fact that even not too long ago, non r-compound tires sucked, a lot. No Azenis or Kuhmo MXs, etc. I think if those tires had existed a long time ago, things would be different, but that's not the case. [/B][/QUOTE]
Being an old guy, I remember when R-compounds were legal in all classes (stock, street prepared, prepared, and modified). It wasn't until the "Street" classes were born did the class structure and preparation levels get really interesting.
Mike
02 WRX Wagon
[B]That stock tire thing is a whole nother argument. It stems from the fact that even not too long ago, non r-compound tires sucked, a lot. No Azenis or Kuhmo MXs, etc. I think if those tires had existed a long time ago, things would be different, but that's not the case. [/B][/QUOTE]
Being an old guy, I remember when R-compounds were legal in all classes (stock, street prepared, prepared, and modified). It wasn't until the "Street" classes were born did the class structure and preparation levels get really interesting.
Mike
02 WRX Wagon
Không có nhận xét nào:
Đăng nhận xét