| mykrrrr | 09-24-2001 10:22 AM |
David Higgins to run LSPR
[url]http://www.rallyrallyrally.com/cgi-bin/news/viewnews.cgi?newsid1001245953,91314,[/url]
David Higgins (1999 British Grp. N champion) is gonna run the SCCA Lake Superior ProRally...WOO HOO!!! :D
Lovell watch out!!! :lol:
-myk
David Higgins (1999 British Grp. N champion) is gonna run the SCCA Lake Superior ProRally...WOO HOO!!! :D
Lovell watch out!!! :lol:
-myk
| ProrallyWRX | 09-24-2001 08:52 PM |
WRX vs WRX
It is going to be great watching our AV Sport prepared WRX driven by Higgins against the Prodrive WRX by Lovell. Any bets? Maybe we should run a poll on this one?
AV SPORT.
[url]www.alternativevehicles.com[/url]
David Higgins official web site
[url]http://www.david-higgins.com[/url]
Justin
AV SPORT.
[url]www.alternativevehicles.com[/url]
David Higgins official web site
[url]http://www.david-higgins.com[/url]
Justin
| TOMMY B | 09-24-2001 09:20 PM |
I bet the car DNF's...... Any Bets ?????
RALLY ON //////////////
RALLY ON //////////////
| mykrrrr | 09-24-2001 09:29 PM |
Keeping it optimistic huh Tommy??? :confused:
-myk
-myk
| ProrallyWRX | 09-24-2001 09:35 PM |
Why an expected DNF?
:) Just curious Tommy. What makes you think the car will DNF?
Have we done anything to make you expect a DNF?
Thanks for the support.
Have we done anything to make you expect a DNF?
Thanks for the support.
| ProrallyWRX | 09-24-2001 09:36 PM |
Now I understand
So tommy, Lovell has had a good finishing rate. I wouldn't expect him to DNF. I am sure he appreciates your support though.
Justin:lol:
Justin:lol:
| mykrrrr | 09-25-2001 06:08 AM |
Tommy seems to be very opinionated on rally racing.
I don't know how to post the link but do a search for this topic "The truth behind..................... PRODRIVE" and read on.
Anyhoo...with the experience that BOTH drivers have I don't think either will DNF w/o it being something really crazy or mechanical.
GOOD LUCK TO [B]ALL[/B] COMPETITORS.
-myk
I don't know how to post the link but do a search for this topic "The truth behind..................... PRODRIVE" and read on.
Anyhoo...with the experience that BOTH drivers have I don't think either will DNF w/o it being something really crazy or mechanical.
GOOD LUCK TO [B]ALL[/B] COMPETITORS.
-myk
| Shik | 09-25-2001 07:13 AM |
That is great news. I remember Debbi from Barretts sending me a few pictures of his old Impreza(white with confetti paint job) quite a number of years ago. Excellent to see he'll be over here giving it a go.
As for who would finnish better, who cares as long as they are driving Subarus! I would like to see Lovell win as many as possible to keep SOA happy, but wish Mr. Higgins, Justin, and the team the best of luck.
As for who would finnish better, who cares as long as they are driving Subarus! I would like to see Lovell win as many as possible to keep SOA happy, but wish Mr. Higgins, Justin, and the team the best of luck.
| Jon Bogert | 09-25-2001 09:42 AM |
[QUOTE]Tommy seems to be very opinionated on rally racing.[/QUOTE]
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Hmmm, yet another foreign rally driver taking a job from a hard-working American. I'm going to have to ask the union rep about that... ;)
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Hmmm, yet another foreign rally driver taking a job from a hard-working American. I'm going to have to ask the union rep about that... ;)
| TOMMY B | 09-25-2001 09:47 AM |
I was right behind a AV Sport Preped WRX at Maine summer, I think it was a well thought out PGT WRX, I was trying to make some small Talk to one of your support people but he would have none of it. As if I was below his level of ability and preparation, I said we will see what the car can do on the road if it is a good as you say it is. He said "this is the best PGT Subaru at this rally......" As if my Legacy was unworthy and a pice of junk.......
Well, I watch that nice AV Sport WRX on stage one drive 50 yards Strait in to a Tree.............? Way to go.... you sure showed me a thing or two.
I would "Talk" less about your rally teams Great cars and Drivers, I don't see V.T. Sport car, T.A.D., ProDrive,Winning Makes or any other big Teams Blowing Smoke about there rally efforts. Thay let the results talk for them self........ Time Will tell. Good Luck;
RALLY ON ///////////////////
Well, I watch that nice AV Sport WRX on stage one drive 50 yards Strait in to a Tree.............? Way to go.... you sure showed me a thing or two.
I would "Talk" less about your rally teams Great cars and Drivers, I don't see V.T. Sport car, T.A.D., ProDrive,Winning Makes or any other big Teams Blowing Smoke about there rally efforts. Thay let the results talk for them self........ Time Will tell. Good Luck;
RALLY ON ///////////////////
| mykrrrr | 09-25-2001 10:04 AM |
ROFLMAO... :lol:
As they say around Ford Chicago Assembly [B]"CALL MY COMMITTEE MAN"[/B]
-myk
As they say around Ford Chicago Assembly [B]"CALL MY COMMITTEE MAN"[/B]
-myk
| Jon Bogert | 09-25-2001 10:57 AM |
And exactly why should Tom support Lovell, or any other rally driver?
There are two camps right now in ProRally: Those who "run what they brung" and have a good time, and those who invest cubic $$$ into the latest and greatest machinery money can buy. Teams like Prodrive (and perhaps AV Sport) walk in and expect "rah rah" from Subaru owners just because they're running Subarus. I think Subaru rally fans are savvier than that, and have a lot more respect for the guys like Tommy and Randy (and Dean and Don and Greg) who may not have the big bucks, but can take a homebuilt Subaru and do amazing things with it. Frankly, the biggest cheers usually go to guys like Andrew Havas in his 22 year old RX-7, or John Kemp in his 17 year old Quattro. If you're Prodrive and you win, so what--you're expected to win. If you can run top-10 with an older car, THAT'S an accomplishment.
But it won't matter soon when the win-at-all-costs teams get their way and the older cars are excluded from ProRally.
"Yours in the sport" indeed! :rolleyes:
There are two camps right now in ProRally: Those who "run what they brung" and have a good time, and those who invest cubic $$$ into the latest and greatest machinery money can buy. Teams like Prodrive (and perhaps AV Sport) walk in and expect "rah rah" from Subaru owners just because they're running Subarus. I think Subaru rally fans are savvier than that, and have a lot more respect for the guys like Tommy and Randy (and Dean and Don and Greg) who may not have the big bucks, but can take a homebuilt Subaru and do amazing things with it. Frankly, the biggest cheers usually go to guys like Andrew Havas in his 22 year old RX-7, or John Kemp in his 17 year old Quattro. If you're Prodrive and you win, so what--you're expected to win. If you can run top-10 with an older car, THAT'S an accomplishment.
But it won't matter soon when the win-at-all-costs teams get their way and the older cars are excluded from ProRally.
"Yours in the sport" indeed! :rolleyes:
| ProrallyWRX | 09-25-2001 11:19 AM |
I agree
I think that people should cheer for everyone in the sport. From "cubic $" cars to the run what you brung.
It takes everyone to make the sport great. While it is great to see really big teams out there, it is also great to see Havas ripping it up!!
Anyone out there gets support from me especially the underdogs.
Good luck to all.
Justin:)
It takes everyone to make the sport great. While it is great to see really big teams out there, it is also great to see Havas ripping it up!!
Anyone out there gets support from me especially the underdogs.
Good luck to all.
Justin:)
| Scoobyslack1 | 09-26-2001 09:13 AM |
cool, watched the '99 BRC year review and wished they had more of the Higgins' Sube.
| brainrally | 09-26-2001 12:15 PM |
I also found it interesting that one of the cars run is a Mustang. Who would expect a Mustang in a rally race? And apparently it did well in it's class at least one rally.
| Jon Bogert | 09-26-2001 01:42 PM |
Yeah Mike Hurst's Mustang is amazing! 400lb-ft of torque and rwd means it only does well on smooth roads with decent traction.
Run what ya brung! That's what ProRallying need more of. I'd rather watch Mike run big sideways than watch 20 EVOs all in a row.
Run what ya brung! That's what ProRallying need more of. I'd rather watch Mike run big sideways than watch 20 EVOs all in a row.
| orbit03 | 09-26-2001 03:57 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Jon Bogert [/i]
[B]Yeah Mike Hurst's Mustang is amazing! 400lb-ft of torque and rwd means it only does well on smooth roads with decent traction.
Run what ya brung! That's what ProRallying need more of. I'd rather watch Mike run big sideways than watch 20 EVOs all in a row. [/B][/QUOTE]
That is what ClubRally is all about. Run what 'ya brung. I'll admit it was cool to see Hurst fling the 'stang around at STPR. It was cool to watch Havas fling the RX-7 around. However, the show they provided absolutely PALED in comparison the Subaru, Evo, Hyundia parade. We were spectating a stage that the cars went by twice. It started raining between runs and the road turned into soup. I think the Subaru WRC car was faster in the deep, slick mud than in the dry. It was jaw dropping.
The Club/Pro debate will rage for a long time, but I'm a firm believer in how the SCCA is positioning the two programs. ProRally should be a showcase for [B]national[/B] level competitors who are going to run the full national series. Local and regional 'run-what-ya-brung' teams should be in the ClubRally series.
[B]Yeah Mike Hurst's Mustang is amazing! 400lb-ft of torque and rwd means it only does well on smooth roads with decent traction.
Run what ya brung! That's what ProRallying need more of. I'd rather watch Mike run big sideways than watch 20 EVOs all in a row. [/B][/QUOTE]
That is what ClubRally is all about. Run what 'ya brung. I'll admit it was cool to see Hurst fling the 'stang around at STPR. It was cool to watch Havas fling the RX-7 around. However, the show they provided absolutely PALED in comparison the Subaru, Evo, Hyundia parade. We were spectating a stage that the cars went by twice. It started raining between runs and the road turned into soup. I think the Subaru WRC car was faster in the deep, slick mud than in the dry. It was jaw dropping.
The Club/Pro debate will rage for a long time, but I'm a firm believer in how the SCCA is positioning the two programs. ProRally should be a showcase for [B]national[/B] level competitors who are going to run the full national series. Local and regional 'run-what-ya-brung' teams should be in the ClubRally series.
| johnfelstead | 09-26-2001 04:04 PM |
The debate never ends guys. We have been arguing over this for decades. :D
What is needed is a structure that both promotes the sport in a profesional way to allow it to grow yet doesnt exclude the guys wanting to have a fun time on a limited budget.
Get used to it. There is always someone with more money than you. Quite often there is always someone with more skill too. Thats life, rally is no diferent. (well, except skill, i am the dogs ;) :lol: )
You should be chuffed to bits the pro's are taking rally in the USA seriously. It can only be good for the sport long term.
It's interesting David is coming over. I had a long talk with his brother Mark (works Ford driver) a couple of months back when i was at donington race track in my car and Mark was there in the works Focus. I was telling him how Pro-Rally was really taking off now and worth a look. Maybe that started the Higgins boys thinking? Who knows.
David and Mark are great guys, we have tested on their family forest in wales in our cars and i have seen them come through the ranks over the years. Both are very fast drivers, Mark is exceptional IMHO.
What is needed is a structure that both promotes the sport in a profesional way to allow it to grow yet doesnt exclude the guys wanting to have a fun time on a limited budget.
Get used to it. There is always someone with more money than you. Quite often there is always someone with more skill too. Thats life, rally is no diferent. (well, except skill, i am the dogs ;) :lol: )
You should be chuffed to bits the pro's are taking rally in the USA seriously. It can only be good for the sport long term.
It's interesting David is coming over. I had a long talk with his brother Mark (works Ford driver) a couple of months back when i was at donington race track in my car and Mark was there in the works Focus. I was telling him how Pro-Rally was really taking off now and worth a look. Maybe that started the Higgins boys thinking? Who knows.
David and Mark are great guys, we have tested on their family forest in wales in our cars and i have seen them come through the ranks over the years. Both are very fast drivers, Mark is exceptional IMHO.
| Jon Bogert | 09-26-2001 05:43 PM |
[QUOTE]What is needed is a structure that both promotes the sport in a profesional way to allow it to grow yet doesnt exclude the guys wanting to have a fun time on a limited budget. [/QUOTE]
I agree completely. I'm afraid that's not what's happening now. Could we persuade you to take a post at the head of the SCCA Rally department?
I agree completely. I'm afraid that's not what's happening now. Could we persuade you to take a post at the head of the SCCA Rally department?
| mykrrrr | 09-26-2001 05:49 PM |
Well said John :D
The Higgins brothers are fantastic IMO. I also think that Neil Werden, Justin Dale & Martin Rowe are pretty good for non WRC drivers.
So when I come over we can get some stage time @ the Higgins' forest in yer rally car and some lap time in the Westie @ the 'ring??? :D Please please pretty please!!! :lol:
Jon B. - What are the gripes that privateers teams have with the current SCCA platform??? I'm on various lists for US rallying but I'm not a competitor so I don't know the insides and outs of the structure.
-myk
The Higgins brothers are fantastic IMO. I also think that Neil Werden, Justin Dale & Martin Rowe are pretty good for non WRC drivers.
So when I come over we can get some stage time @ the Higgins' forest in yer rally car and some lap time in the Westie @ the 'ring??? :D Please please pretty please!!! :lol:
Jon B. - What are the gripes that privateers teams have with the current SCCA platform??? I'm on various lists for US rallying but I'm not a competitor so I don't know the insides and outs of the structure.
-myk
| Jon Bogert | 09-26-2001 06:35 PM |
Myk, there are various indignities being perpetrated on the mid to low level competitor. Right now, us mid-level guys still have it OK. The Seed 6 drivers are treated like pond scum already, and the trend is towards all but the top few teams getting moved into the Rodney Dangerfield category within the next couple of years.
But never mind the specifics. The core issue that all rallyists are facing is this: the SCCA is taking an established, successful clubmen series and taking it away from the clubmen. They are doing this in the hopes of getting the manufacturers to replace us with well-groomed professional drivers in the latest cars with "Coke" and "Nike" on the doors.
Nobody--least of all me--has any problem with professional rallying. As I've said before, I'd like nothing better than to have to choose between watching a rally and watching a football game on network TV every Sunday.
But they shouldn't build this "New World Order", as it's been sneeringly called, at the expense of the existing rallyists. They want to exclude us from our events and pretend we don't exist. Some people focus on the terms "ProRally" and "ClubRally" but they really don't mean anything. Half the ProRally drivers are also ClubRally drivers. The main issue is whether we get kicked out of any rallies.
Sorry for the rant, but I try to speak out whenever possible rather than wait quietly to be steamrolled.
But never mind the specifics. The core issue that all rallyists are facing is this: the SCCA is taking an established, successful clubmen series and taking it away from the clubmen. They are doing this in the hopes of getting the manufacturers to replace us with well-groomed professional drivers in the latest cars with "Coke" and "Nike" on the doors.
Nobody--least of all me--has any problem with professional rallying. As I've said before, I'd like nothing better than to have to choose between watching a rally and watching a football game on network TV every Sunday.
But they shouldn't build this "New World Order", as it's been sneeringly called, at the expense of the existing rallyists. They want to exclude us from our events and pretend we don't exist. Some people focus on the terms "ProRally" and "ClubRally" but they really don't mean anything. Half the ProRally drivers are also ClubRally drivers. The main issue is whether we get kicked out of any rallies.
Sorry for the rant, but I try to speak out whenever possible rather than wait quietly to be steamrolled.
| johnfelstead | 09-26-2001 07:08 PM |
I dont know enough about the proposed changes to make a comment right now on the plans. Is there anywhere i can find these in black and white? Rather than feelings or rumour?
I dont know that much about the history of the SCCA championships either, just what i have seen this year. I have no historical baggage on that so i will be able to give an unbiased opinion?
We have been through lots of changes over the years in the UK, i have been a part of those to some extent. One thing that always happens when you get manufacturers involved though is the series go through peaks and troughs dependant on the type of rules implemented.
I'd be interested to see the rules.
You dont want much Mykrrrr do you?? :lol:
I dont know that much about the history of the SCCA championships either, just what i have seen this year. I have no historical baggage on that so i will be able to give an unbiased opinion?
We have been through lots of changes over the years in the UK, i have been a part of those to some extent. One thing that always happens when you get manufacturers involved though is the series go through peaks and troughs dependant on the type of rules implemented.
I'd be interested to see the rules.
You dont want much Mykrrrr do you?? :lol:
| Stoopid MOMO | 09-26-2001 11:32 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by johnfelstead [/i]
[B]I dont know enough about the proposed changes to make a comment right now on the plans. Is there anywhere i can find these in black and white? Rather than feelings or rumour?
I dont know that much about the history of the SCCA championships either, just what i have seen this year. I have no historical baggage on that so i will be able to give an unbiased opinion?
We have been through lots of changes over the years in the UK, i have been a part of those to some extent. One thing that always happens when you get manufacturers involved though is the series go through peaks and troughs dependant on the type of rules implemented.
I'd be interested to see the rules.
You dont want much Mykrrrr do you?? :lol: [/B][/QUOTE]
Well heres the black and white that you asked for. Starting next season or sometime in the future a 5-year rule is going to be in effect. If you wanna run prorally your car cant be more then 5 years old.
If you want to run a car for a few years youd have to buy it almost brand new. Thats overkill for many John Q. Rallydrivers.
[B]I dont know enough about the proposed changes to make a comment right now on the plans. Is there anywhere i can find these in black and white? Rather than feelings or rumour?
I dont know that much about the history of the SCCA championships either, just what i have seen this year. I have no historical baggage on that so i will be able to give an unbiased opinion?
We have been through lots of changes over the years in the UK, i have been a part of those to some extent. One thing that always happens when you get manufacturers involved though is the series go through peaks and troughs dependant on the type of rules implemented.
I'd be interested to see the rules.
You dont want much Mykrrrr do you?? :lol: [/B][/QUOTE]
Well heres the black and white that you asked for. Starting next season or sometime in the future a 5-year rule is going to be in effect. If you wanna run prorally your car cant be more then 5 years old.
If you want to run a car for a few years youd have to buy it almost brand new. Thats overkill for many John Q. Rallydrivers.
| OnTheGas | 09-27-2001 12:14 AM |
Why?
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Stoopid MOMO [/i]
[B]...Starting next season or sometime in the future a 5-year rule is going to be in effect. If you wanna run prorally your car cant be more then 5 years old...[/B][/QUOTE]Now this is an innocent question so don't get too excited, but what is the advantage to ProRally to implement this rule?
Are there too many competitors or something? Anyone have any ideas as to the thinking behind this rule?
[B]...Starting next season or sometime in the future a 5-year rule is going to be in effect. If you wanna run prorally your car cant be more then 5 years old...[/B][/QUOTE]Now this is an innocent question so don't get too excited, but what is the advantage to ProRally to implement this rule?
Are there too many competitors or something? Anyone have any ideas as to the thinking behind this rule?
| Stoopid MOMO | 09-27-2001 12:21 AM |
onthegas - Like JonB said, its all about image. Plus its a marketing tool. My dad told me that when NASCAR was about running production cars whatever car that won the race on sunday was going to disappear off the lot on monday. Same thing today with other attainable cars.
| mykrrrr | 09-27-2001 06:14 AM |
[QUOTE]You dont want much Mykrrrr do you?? :lol:[/QUOTE]
Is that [B]too[/B] to ask John??? :D
-myk
Is that [B]too[/B] to ask John??? :D
-myk
| ProrallyWRX | 09-27-2001 10:18 AM |
sad
The worst part is that a lot of competitors out therre do well enough to compete very well using a car older than 5 years. The image of the sport is one thing, but limiting the competitors is another. I think next year would be too soon for a 5 year rule like this. Wait til the sport is so big that it can "afford" the split.
We have a few years before this will work I think.
Justin
We have a few years before this will work I think.
Justin
| OnTheGas | 09-27-2001 01:40 PM |
The New ProRally...
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Stoopid MOMO [/i]
[B]onthegas - Like JonB said, its all about image. Plus its a marketing tool. My dad told me that when NASCAR was about running production cars whatever car that won the race on sunday was going to disappear off the lot on monday. Same thing today with other attainable cars. [/B][/QUOTE]Hmmm... Image and marketing... I'm no sports marketing guru, but I'm guessing that the overall goal is to increase exposure to new people to grow the fan base of ProRally.
Seems to me the more direct way would be to more heavily market and promote the ProRally events locally to increase local attendance, as well as make sure that spectators are well accommodated so they have a pleasurable experience. I was pretty impressed w/the efforts exhibited at the Rim of the World Rally, which I attended earlier this year. Although I think the event would have benefited from even more aggressive marketing, as well as planning on accommodating even larger crowds next season.
SCCA can obtain a nice TV broadcast package if they first build a fan base. Theoretically, w/a decent TV package would come more money available to participants from sponsors so they can afford newer and better equipment. The danger appears to be for SCCA to make ProRally more expensive for participants before ProRally has obtained a larger fan base.
On the other hand, the danger for ProRally competitors is to NOT adjust to the increased fan base, the increased competitiveness, and the increased costs. It means that success will come to those who can gain higher budget through new sponsors or more dinero from current sponsors.
This will be a big change for all... I really hope SCCA is successful. ProRally should no longer be the best kept secret in American motorsports...
[B]onthegas - Like JonB said, its all about image. Plus its a marketing tool. My dad told me that when NASCAR was about running production cars whatever car that won the race on sunday was going to disappear off the lot on monday. Same thing today with other attainable cars. [/B][/QUOTE]Hmmm... Image and marketing... I'm no sports marketing guru, but I'm guessing that the overall goal is to increase exposure to new people to grow the fan base of ProRally.
Seems to me the more direct way would be to more heavily market and promote the ProRally events locally to increase local attendance, as well as make sure that spectators are well accommodated so they have a pleasurable experience. I was pretty impressed w/the efforts exhibited at the Rim of the World Rally, which I attended earlier this year. Although I think the event would have benefited from even more aggressive marketing, as well as planning on accommodating even larger crowds next season.
SCCA can obtain a nice TV broadcast package if they first build a fan base. Theoretically, w/a decent TV package would come more money available to participants from sponsors so they can afford newer and better equipment. The danger appears to be for SCCA to make ProRally more expensive for participants before ProRally has obtained a larger fan base.
On the other hand, the danger for ProRally competitors is to NOT adjust to the increased fan base, the increased competitiveness, and the increased costs. It means that success will come to those who can gain higher budget through new sponsors or more dinero from current sponsors.
This will be a big change for all... I really hope SCCA is successful. ProRally should no longer be the best kept secret in American motorsports...
| johnfelstead | 09-27-2001 07:23 PM |
Well I can't find any mention of 5 years in the SCCA minutes of the Performance rally comittee??
Below is an extract from those minutes and i have highlighted my own comments to the rule.
COMPETITOR BULLETIN
DATE: 10 August 2001
FROM: SCCA Performance Rally Board
TO: Competitors, Stewards, Scrutineers
RE: 2002 Performance Rally Rulebook
The 2001 SCCA Performance Rally
rulebook was a significant re-write and
re-organization; therefore the changes to
the 2002 book will be centered primarily
on clarifications and verbiage.
Summarized below are the significant
revisions to the 2002 rulebook. These
rule changes respond to emerging issues,
get ahead of anticipated ones, and begin
to move our sport towards the guiding
vision that was established and pub-lished
in the first quarter of this year.
The precise wording of the changes is
still being formulated, the exact verbiage
will be submitted to the BOD for their
approval on their October 01, 2001 con-ference
call.
1. Revised Seeding Procedure:
a. Approved in 2000, but too late to be
included in the 2001 rulebook.
b. The new seeding plan will put both
stage-based Performance Rally programs -ProRally
and ClubRally, on the same
seeding system, so drivers can move up
and down a single scale with no need for
subjective interpretation by stewards.
2. Addition of "Stage Notes" to
ProRally events.
a. An important addition that will
bridge the difference between the exist-ing
"Blind Rally" format, wherein the
driver/co-driver must rely entirely on
tulip-style instructions and minimal ver-biage,
and the globally accepted standard
of "Recce & Pacenotes" that often involve
several days of 'pre-running' the course
by each entrant.
b. The Stage Notes would be produced
by approved, independent agent(s), and
be provided by the Organizer to the
entrants. The cost savings to teams over
recce and pacenoting logistics is consider-able,
and the safety margin the notes add
over blind rallying is globally recognized.
c. No reconnaissance by any team will
be allowed.
[b]What i see this doing is making the events a more level playing field for inexperienced teams to a particular area. It is going to remove some of the big names advantages and allow foreign competitors and also out of state competitors more of a chance of winning. This is a very good move. If you want a great example of this, look at the history of the Donegal rally in Ireland. That used to be the exclusive run of the locals until route notes were introduced. As soon as that happened the likes of Vatanen started to do the rally and compete fairly. (and win!). That grew the rally in both the public and sport perception masively.[/b]
3. Adoption of mandatory unleaded
fuel use by all ProRally teams:
a. All vehicles entered in SCCA
ProRally events shall be required to use
Unleaded fuel.
b. Member teams of the SCCA
ProRally Manufacturers Council will use
Sunoco 100 octane (GT Unleaded) fuel in
all works backed entries.
[b]This may be an issue for the historic runners in particular. It's not dificult to convert to unleaded plus there are aditives that can be purchased to make that safe in engines needing Lead. It's good PR to run unleaded only.[/b]
4. Technology Caps for Open Class:
a. Open class remains unchanged, but
an "Open Class Appendix" will be added,
establishing "Technology Caps" that will
ensure SCCA ProRally costs of competi-tion
remain controllable, and accessible
to independent entries.
[b]This depends on what the aims are, it's unclear. I would expect they are talking about things like active transmisions here? Need more info.[/b]
5. The Rotary Factor for Group 5:
a. Returned to its year 2000 (1.8) level.
This was addressed in a bulletin early in
the 2001 season, and is currently in
effect.
[b]No comment. I do like a good wankel engine.[/b]
6. Age limits for ProRally cars
entered in SCCA ProRally events:
a. The 20-year rule applies to all
classes except Production, which follows
a 12-year rule, patterned after the suc-cessful
Showroom Stock formula in Club
Racing.
b. Ages for non-dual entered
ClubRally cars are not affected.
c. Historic Class cars will continue
to be allowed in SCCA ProRally events.
[b]Where is your 5 year rule? It states 12 years as a worst case?[/b]
7. 32mm restrictor for Production
GT cars:
a. This will bring the speed potential
of these cars down to manageable levels,
establish a clear class hierarchy for
ProRally, and bring the US and Canadian
versions of this class into closer align-ment.
[b]This is going to slow PGT down significantly and make the engine restrictor the same as GroupN. I dont know what else is allowed in PGT but to overcome this the engine mapping needs massive work, That happens in groupN, I doubt it is allowed in PGT?[/b]
So, where is this 5 year rule comming from????
Below is an extract from those minutes and i have highlighted my own comments to the rule.
COMPETITOR BULLETIN
DATE: 10 August 2001
FROM: SCCA Performance Rally Board
TO: Competitors, Stewards, Scrutineers
RE: 2002 Performance Rally Rulebook
The 2001 SCCA Performance Rally
rulebook was a significant re-write and
re-organization; therefore the changes to
the 2002 book will be centered primarily
on clarifications and verbiage.
Summarized below are the significant
revisions to the 2002 rulebook. These
rule changes respond to emerging issues,
get ahead of anticipated ones, and begin
to move our sport towards the guiding
vision that was established and pub-lished
in the first quarter of this year.
The precise wording of the changes is
still being formulated, the exact verbiage
will be submitted to the BOD for their
approval on their October 01, 2001 con-ference
call.
1. Revised Seeding Procedure:
a. Approved in 2000, but too late to be
included in the 2001 rulebook.
b. The new seeding plan will put both
stage-based Performance Rally programs -ProRally
and ClubRally, on the same
seeding system, so drivers can move up
and down a single scale with no need for
subjective interpretation by stewards.
2. Addition of "Stage Notes" to
ProRally events.
a. An important addition that will
bridge the difference between the exist-ing
"Blind Rally" format, wherein the
driver/co-driver must rely entirely on
tulip-style instructions and minimal ver-biage,
and the globally accepted standard
of "Recce & Pacenotes" that often involve
several days of 'pre-running' the course
by each entrant.
b. The Stage Notes would be produced
by approved, independent agent(s), and
be provided by the Organizer to the
entrants. The cost savings to teams over
recce and pacenoting logistics is consider-able,
and the safety margin the notes add
over blind rallying is globally recognized.
c. No reconnaissance by any team will
be allowed.
[b]What i see this doing is making the events a more level playing field for inexperienced teams to a particular area. It is going to remove some of the big names advantages and allow foreign competitors and also out of state competitors more of a chance of winning. This is a very good move. If you want a great example of this, look at the history of the Donegal rally in Ireland. That used to be the exclusive run of the locals until route notes were introduced. As soon as that happened the likes of Vatanen started to do the rally and compete fairly. (and win!). That grew the rally in both the public and sport perception masively.[/b]
3. Adoption of mandatory unleaded
fuel use by all ProRally teams:
a. All vehicles entered in SCCA
ProRally events shall be required to use
Unleaded fuel.
b. Member teams of the SCCA
ProRally Manufacturers Council will use
Sunoco 100 octane (GT Unleaded) fuel in
all works backed entries.
[b]This may be an issue for the historic runners in particular. It's not dificult to convert to unleaded plus there are aditives that can be purchased to make that safe in engines needing Lead. It's good PR to run unleaded only.[/b]
4. Technology Caps for Open Class:
a. Open class remains unchanged, but
an "Open Class Appendix" will be added,
establishing "Technology Caps" that will
ensure SCCA ProRally costs of competi-tion
remain controllable, and accessible
to independent entries.
[b]This depends on what the aims are, it's unclear. I would expect they are talking about things like active transmisions here? Need more info.[/b]
5. The Rotary Factor for Group 5:
a. Returned to its year 2000 (1.8) level.
This was addressed in a bulletin early in
the 2001 season, and is currently in
effect.
[b]No comment. I do like a good wankel engine.[/b]
6. Age limits for ProRally cars
entered in SCCA ProRally events:
a. The 20-year rule applies to all
classes except Production, which follows
a 12-year rule, patterned after the suc-cessful
Showroom Stock formula in Club
Racing.
b. Ages for non-dual entered
ClubRally cars are not affected.
c. Historic Class cars will continue
to be allowed in SCCA ProRally events.
[b]Where is your 5 year rule? It states 12 years as a worst case?[/b]
7. 32mm restrictor for Production
GT cars:
a. This will bring the speed potential
of these cars down to manageable levels,
establish a clear class hierarchy for
ProRally, and bring the US and Canadian
versions of this class into closer align-ment.
[b]This is going to slow PGT down significantly and make the engine restrictor the same as GroupN. I dont know what else is allowed in PGT but to overcome this the engine mapping needs massive work, That happens in groupN, I doubt it is allowed in PGT?[/b]
So, where is this 5 year rule comming from????
| Axiochus | 09-27-2001 07:36 PM |
Re: The New ProRally...
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by OnTheGas [/i]
...It means that success will come to those who can gain higher budget through new sponsors or more dinero from current sponsors.
[/B][/QUOTE]
This is the real sick part about the new rules setup. Never mind the fact that a beginner like myself can mail in his entry application and fee 6 months early only to get bumped out at the last minute because some fancy pants who's run a total of 3 rallies in his EVO (and crept up to seed 3) FedEx'd his entry fee in at the last possible minute. (This isn't unfair to us little folks, is it? We can always get in the next closest rally... which is only a 20 hour tow... and try it again there...).
The worst part of these rules is that they do absolutely NOTHING to make the series better by promoting talent. The very first thing I was told the first time I went to LSPR was (to paraphrase) "Don't just focus on the fancy cars, a lot of the talent is in the less sophisticated machines." And then I saw Henry Krolikowski come flying through a sweeping turn in his G5 Dodge Shadow faster than anybody in the 60 car field except Paul Choinere.
The SCCA can market the hell out of it's new fangled series for all I care... I'm not going to bother watching it on tv. If the new regime puts more focus on money than talent, it won't last long. Give me Steve Nowicki putting his ancient RX-7 in the top 10 of a national event... THAT is exciting.
Matt... not really angry, just a little bit bitter.
...It means that success will come to those who can gain higher budget through new sponsors or more dinero from current sponsors.
[/B][/QUOTE]
This is the real sick part about the new rules setup. Never mind the fact that a beginner like myself can mail in his entry application and fee 6 months early only to get bumped out at the last minute because some fancy pants who's run a total of 3 rallies in his EVO (and crept up to seed 3) FedEx'd his entry fee in at the last possible minute. (This isn't unfair to us little folks, is it? We can always get in the next closest rally... which is only a 20 hour tow... and try it again there...).
The worst part of these rules is that they do absolutely NOTHING to make the series better by promoting talent. The very first thing I was told the first time I went to LSPR was (to paraphrase) "Don't just focus on the fancy cars, a lot of the talent is in the less sophisticated machines." And then I saw Henry Krolikowski come flying through a sweeping turn in his G5 Dodge Shadow faster than anybody in the 60 car field except Paul Choinere.
The SCCA can market the hell out of it's new fangled series for all I care... I'm not going to bother watching it on tv. If the new regime puts more focus on money than talent, it won't last long. Give me Steve Nowicki putting his ancient RX-7 in the top 10 of a national event... THAT is exciting.
Matt... not really angry, just a little bit bitter.
| TOMMY B | 09-28-2001 05:20 AM |
Just some more info;
The Five (5) year age limit on cars is in the SCCA long term plan that thay hope to apply, just like the F.I.A.
What most poeple do not realizes, The back bone of Pro Rally in the U.S. Has been sported by the Small teams and organized by other drivers and some die hard scca regions since its inception. At any given rally, It is run mostly by former rally participates in some form....
The SCCA has managed to High-jack many of the best rally's in the U.S. and exclude many of its long time supporters from running rallys that thay had help in createing them self's.
There was a time not to long-ago when the SCCA wished the Rally community would just go away, Rally always lost money, thay had thought there was always to much risk for some kind of mishap on public roads. Now with the renaissances in pro rally the SCCA see the chance to make some big money if thay can get the right players to the Table. It just happens to leave most of us out of the loop that can't play at that level.........
RALLY ON ///////////////////////
What most poeple do not realizes, The back bone of Pro Rally in the U.S. Has been sported by the Small teams and organized by other drivers and some die hard scca regions since its inception. At any given rally, It is run mostly by former rally participates in some form....
The SCCA has managed to High-jack many of the best rally's in the U.S. and exclude many of its long time supporters from running rallys that thay had help in createing them self's.
There was a time not to long-ago when the SCCA wished the Rally community would just go away, Rally always lost money, thay had thought there was always to much risk for some kind of mishap on public roads. Now with the renaissances in pro rally the SCCA see the chance to make some big money if thay can get the right players to the Table. It just happens to leave most of us out of the loop that can't play at that level.........
RALLY ON ///////////////////////
| TOMMY B | 10-01-2001 08:04 AM |
This P.O.R. Has the makings of one of the best ever.......
Time Will Tell..........
RALLY ON //////////////////
Time Will Tell..........
RALLY ON //////////////////
| TOMMY B | 10-22-2001 01:26 PM |
No Higgins ??:confused: ??
| mykrrrr | 10-22-2001 02:05 PM |
[QUOTE]No Higgins [/QUOTE]
I heard he DNF'd. :(
-myk
I heard he DNF'd. :(
-myk
| iceweazel | 10-22-2001 11:01 PM |
His "cobb built" engine ate itself. He was pulled over after SS2
dead on the side with the boot open.
Rumor was that the previous one cobb built for AV blew a headgasket as well.
Ed
dead on the side with the boot open.
Rumor was that the previous one cobb built for AV blew a headgasket as well.
Ed
| mykrrrr | 10-23-2001 12:01 AM |
[quote]His "cobb built" engine ate itself. He was pulled over after SS2
dead on the side with the boot open[/quote]
So he had a rear engined WRX??? :confused: :lol:
I'm assuming you meant to say *bonnet* and not boot... ;)
Ed - I'm just messin' wit ya!!!
-myk
dead on the side with the boot open[/quote]
So he had a rear engined WRX??? :confused: :lol:
I'm assuming you meant to say *bonnet* and not boot... ;)
Ed - I'm just messin' wit ya!!!
-myk
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