| DFL2.5RS | 09-22-2005 12:34 AM |
DEBATE: which setup is better for autocross
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Hi everyone,
a friend and I have been debating who's car has an advantage for autocross (this is for rawtimes excluding the PAX multipliers). I'm going to list our cars and setups and if people could chip in with their opinion of which car would have an edge for the fastest RAW time (assume both have an IDENTICAL driver). Please, no flames here folks, this is just to settle a debate and we wanted some expert opinions!
Car 1: 2002 WRX (wingless)
mods:
[B]unichip[/B] (mapped for 17psi but car will only be running 14.0 with the MBC removed for the autocross)
[B]catless uppipe[/B]
[B]omnipower coilovers[/B] (non dampening adjustable, springs 560lbf/450lbr)
ride height set to stock rear and about 1inch drop in front
225/45/r16 yokohama AVS es100 on stock wrx wheels
aligned to -1.0 degrees front and whatever the rear is stock with 0.0 degrees toe
Car 2: 1999 2.5RS coupe
[B]BODY:[/B]
CF hood
V5sti rear wing
H&R race springs and KYB AGX struts
[B]SUSPENSION:[/B]
steering rack bushings
17inch lightweight wheels
215/45/r17 kumho ecsta MX tires
whiteline front and rear adjustable swaybars
whiteline heavy duty front and rear endlinks
whiteline heavy duty swaybar brackets
whiteline poly swaybar bushings
STI rear struttower bar
aligned to -1.5 to -2 degrees front and -1.0 degrees rear with 0degrees toe
[B]BRAKES:[/B]
WRX front brake caliper brackets
WRX racing brake slotted rotors
Legacy turbo cross drilled rear disk brakes
barbotech bobcat pads all around
stainless brake lines
ATE super blue fluid
Front brake cooling ducts
[B]Driveline:[/B]
sti group N hardened engine mounts
sti group N hardened tranny mounts
sti group N hardened pitch stop mount
sti stainless clutchline
sti short throw shifter
whiteline steering rack bushings
whiteline rear differential bushings
kartboy hardened shifter bushing
ACT 13lb lightweight flywheel
EXEDY organic clutch (for RS tranny)
stock RS tranny
limited slip rear differential
[B]ENGINE:[/B]
JDM STI V5 RA engine
18.5 PSI boost
Apexi SAFC II
full catless 3inch turboback exhaust
catless JDM uppipe
VF29 ballbearing turbo (stock for this engine)
boost, egt, wideband 02, (basically all the gauges you could want)
a friend and I have been debating who's car has an advantage for autocross (this is for rawtimes excluding the PAX multipliers). I'm going to list our cars and setups and if people could chip in with their opinion of which car would have an edge for the fastest RAW time (assume both have an IDENTICAL driver). Please, no flames here folks, this is just to settle a debate and we wanted some expert opinions!
Car 1: 2002 WRX (wingless)
mods:
[B]unichip[/B] (mapped for 17psi but car will only be running 14.0 with the MBC removed for the autocross)
[B]catless uppipe[/B]
[B]omnipower coilovers[/B] (non dampening adjustable, springs 560lbf/450lbr)
ride height set to stock rear and about 1inch drop in front
225/45/r16 yokohama AVS es100 on stock wrx wheels
aligned to -1.0 degrees front and whatever the rear is stock with 0.0 degrees toe
Car 2: 1999 2.5RS coupe
[B]BODY:[/B]
CF hood
V5sti rear wing
H&R race springs and KYB AGX struts
[B]SUSPENSION:[/B]
steering rack bushings
17inch lightweight wheels
215/45/r17 kumho ecsta MX tires
whiteline front and rear adjustable swaybars
whiteline heavy duty front and rear endlinks
whiteline heavy duty swaybar brackets
whiteline poly swaybar bushings
STI rear struttower bar
aligned to -1.5 to -2 degrees front and -1.0 degrees rear with 0degrees toe
[B]BRAKES:[/B]
WRX front brake caliper brackets
WRX racing brake slotted rotors
Legacy turbo cross drilled rear disk brakes
barbotech bobcat pads all around
stainless brake lines
ATE super blue fluid
Front brake cooling ducts
[B]Driveline:[/B]
sti group N hardened engine mounts
sti group N hardened tranny mounts
sti group N hardened pitch stop mount
sti stainless clutchline
sti short throw shifter
whiteline steering rack bushings
whiteline rear differential bushings
kartboy hardened shifter bushing
ACT 13lb lightweight flywheel
EXEDY organic clutch (for RS tranny)
stock RS tranny
limited slip rear differential
[B]ENGINE:[/B]
JDM STI V5 RA engine
18.5 PSI boost
Apexi SAFC II
full catless 3inch turboback exhaust
catless JDM uppipe
VF29 ballbearing turbo (stock for this engine)
boost, egt, wideband 02, (basically all the gauges you could want)
| Homemade WRX | 09-22-2005 12:59 AM |
are you serious?...The RS by far....IMHO...lighter, faster, better gearing, better handling(sounds to be), better braking, etc...
of course on the right course, where he never hits boost, you could have a chance
of course on the right course, where he never hits boost, you could have a chance
| DFL2.5RS | 09-22-2005 01:02 AM |
thanks for the input, the RS actually spools faster too (about 200rpms before my car!) keep the input coming!!
| afpdl | 09-22-2005 02:47 AM |
The RS, the mxs are a big difference. The only place I see the wrx possibly having an advantage is spring rates, but I seriously doubt that will overcome the difference in tire grip.
| trhoppe | 09-22-2005 03:21 AM |
[QUOTE=DFL2.5RS]Car 2: 1999 2.5RS coupe
[B]SUSPENSION:[/B]
STI rear struttower bar
[B]BRAKES:[/B]
Front brake cooling ducts
[B]Driveline:[/B]
sti stainless clutchline
[B]ENGINE:[/B]
boost, egt, wideband 02, (basically all the gauges you could want)[/QUOTE] I think the above things clearly identify the RS as the winn4r.
-Tom
[B]SUSPENSION:[/B]
STI rear struttower bar
[B]BRAKES:[/B]
Front brake cooling ducts
[B]Driveline:[/B]
sti stainless clutchline
[B]ENGINE:[/B]
boost, egt, wideband 02, (basically all the gauges you could want)[/QUOTE] I think the above things clearly identify the RS as the winn4r.
-Tom
| Patrick Olsen | 09-22-2005 05:29 AM |
Is your friend stupid, or are you just looking for an ego boost here for all of us to tell you how much better your car is? If your friend honestly thinks (with equal drivers) that his heavier, less powerful car with marginal tires and a crappy alignment would have any chance against your car, well, he's an idiot.
Regardless, I'd pwn you both.
Regardless, I'd pwn you both.
| Butt Dyno | 09-22-2005 06:49 AM |
[QUOTE=Patrick Olsen]Is your friend stupid, or are you just looking for an ego boost here for all of us to tell you how much better your car is? If your friend honestly thinks (with equal drivers) that his heavier, less powerful car with marginal tires and a crappy alignment would have any chance against your car, well, he's an idiot.
Regardless, I'd pwn you both.[/QUOTE]
:lol:
Regardless, I'd pwn you both.[/QUOTE]
:lol:
| KC | 09-22-2005 07:50 AM |
[QUOTE=Patrick Olsen]Is your friend stupid, or are you just looking for an ego boost here for all of us to tell you how much better your car is? If your friend honestly thinks (with equal drivers) that his heavier, less powerful car with marginal tires and a crappy alignment would have any chance against your car, well, he's an idiot.
Regardless, I'd pwn you both.[/QUOTE]
In his Legacy.
Regardless, I'd pwn you both.[/QUOTE]
In his Legacy.
| crystalhelix | 09-22-2005 07:56 AM |
[QUOTE=DFL2.5RS]Hi everyone,
a friend and I have been debating who's car has an advantage for autocross (this is for rawtimes excluding the PAX multipliers). I'm going to list our cars and setups and if people could chip in with their opinion of which car would have an edge for the fastest RAW time (assume both have an IDENTICAL driver). Please, no flames here folks, this is just to settle a debate and we wanted some expert opinions!
[/QUOTE]
Autocross "is" driver dependent. Just go and do an autocross this weekend and post the results. Good drivers can make up for horsepower and set-up differences. Brag about you mad driving skillz rather than bother with asking which car is bettAr.
a friend and I have been debating who's car has an advantage for autocross (this is for rawtimes excluding the PAX multipliers). I'm going to list our cars and setups and if people could chip in with their opinion of which car would have an edge for the fastest RAW time (assume both have an IDENTICAL driver). Please, no flames here folks, this is just to settle a debate and we wanted some expert opinions!
[/QUOTE]
Autocross "is" driver dependent. Just go and do an autocross this weekend and post the results. Good drivers can make up for horsepower and set-up differences. Brag about you mad driving skillz rather than bother with asking which car is bettAr.
| Scooby South | 09-22-2005 08:01 AM |
:lol: funny Pat..
sounds like both cars are in SM due to boost changes, flywheels and other things..
But the RS will DEFINATELY OwN3....Been there and done that...
My converted RS was more balanced than a STX WRX IMO....Tom will argue that his STX Legal WRX was set up better...which for his purposes it was...I was on 205 R compounds..and he was on the class limit 245 cheater tires..;)...My Suspension was pretty even with his. as well as my brakes....my power was better delivered due to my shorter gear ratio...and puny tires......But Tom drives better than I do...Steven has driven my old RS...Tom hasn't...so basically a stage 2 WRX vs. a Type RA RS...the RS is 400lbs lighter than a WRX....and will win given the same driver....MK drove my car almost 1.5 secs faster than I could..and I picked up some pointers there...:)
Bill
sounds like both cars are in SM due to boost changes, flywheels and other things..
But the RS will DEFINATELY OwN3....Been there and done that...
My converted RS was more balanced than a STX WRX IMO....Tom will argue that his STX Legal WRX was set up better...which for his purposes it was...I was on 205 R compounds..and he was on the class limit 245 cheater tires..;)...My Suspension was pretty even with his. as well as my brakes....my power was better delivered due to my shorter gear ratio...and puny tires......But Tom drives better than I do...Steven has driven my old RS...Tom hasn't...so basically a stage 2 WRX vs. a Type RA RS...the RS is 400lbs lighter than a WRX....and will win given the same driver....MK drove my car almost 1.5 secs faster than I could..and I picked up some pointers there...:)
Bill
| DFL2.5RS | 09-22-2005 10:26 AM |
hey guys,
thanks for the input. The wrx will be running STX since it will have the boost controller removed for the autocross (which I said in my original post). I'm actually the owner of the WRX and have been trying to tell my friend that his RSTI has an advantage for raw times but he refuses to admit it... As far as knowing that autocross is a drivers race, I most definitely do. I've raced many an autocross and was simply looking for some people to take my side so that my friend would stop trying to argue with me that his car has absolutely no advantage over mine. So thanks to everyone that posted. my WRX should be built to about the class limit for STX by next season so hopefully I'll be laying the smack down then... as is, I've already got a room full of trophies :P
[QUOTE=crystalhelix]Autocross "is" driver dependent. Just go and do an autocross this weekend and post the results. Good drivers can make up for horsepower and set-up differences. Brag about you mad driving skillz rather than bother with asking which car is bettAr.[/QUOTE]
I know that to see who the better driver is we'll have to go to an autocross (which we both do regularily and our showdown is scheduled for Oct. 2nd), but if you'll read the initial post this wasn't about drivers. My friend and I have a standing bet that the one with the faster raw time will have their dinner paid for by the one with the slower raw time. Our bet, as always, stands however I was simply looking for some experienced autoXers to corroborate my claim that if I beat him by a small margin in raw times it will demonstrate a better driving performance on my part than if he were to beat me by the same small margin in his car. So to make a long story short I'm trying to prove to my friend that running for raw times him in his SM RSTI against me in my lightly modded stx wrx is not a "fair race" ie he has a bit of an edge... Hopefully that makes sense! Again, I wasn't looking for anything more than a few people to chip in their opinions on which car (assuming identical driver) would have the edge for autocross... Thanks! feel free to chip in your .02 on this thread, just please keep the flaming to a minimum I haven't asked any stupid questions and I KNOW the RSti should be a better autoX car, I just need help proving that to my friend who for some reason refuses to believe me...***?
cheers!
thanks for the input. The wrx will be running STX since it will have the boost controller removed for the autocross (which I said in my original post). I'm actually the owner of the WRX and have been trying to tell my friend that his RSTI has an advantage for raw times but he refuses to admit it... As far as knowing that autocross is a drivers race, I most definitely do. I've raced many an autocross and was simply looking for some people to take my side so that my friend would stop trying to argue with me that his car has absolutely no advantage over mine. So thanks to everyone that posted. my WRX should be built to about the class limit for STX by next season so hopefully I'll be laying the smack down then... as is, I've already got a room full of trophies :P
[QUOTE=crystalhelix]Autocross "is" driver dependent. Just go and do an autocross this weekend and post the results. Good drivers can make up for horsepower and set-up differences. Brag about you mad driving skillz rather than bother with asking which car is bettAr.[/QUOTE]
I know that to see who the better driver is we'll have to go to an autocross (which we both do regularily and our showdown is scheduled for Oct. 2nd), but if you'll read the initial post this wasn't about drivers. My friend and I have a standing bet that the one with the faster raw time will have their dinner paid for by the one with the slower raw time. Our bet, as always, stands however I was simply looking for some experienced autoXers to corroborate my claim that if I beat him by a small margin in raw times it will demonstrate a better driving performance on my part than if he were to beat me by the same small margin in his car. So to make a long story short I'm trying to prove to my friend that running for raw times him in his SM RSTI against me in my lightly modded stx wrx is not a "fair race" ie he has a bit of an edge... Hopefully that makes sense! Again, I wasn't looking for anything more than a few people to chip in their opinions on which car (assuming identical driver) would have the edge for autocross... Thanks! feel free to chip in your .02 on this thread, just please keep the flaming to a minimum I haven't asked any stupid questions and I KNOW the RSti should be a better autoX car, I just need help proving that to my friend who for some reason refuses to believe me...***?
cheers!
| DFL2.5RS | 09-22-2005 10:29 AM |
patrick is your autocross car your legacy gt? and if so, what's done to it?? I won my first autoX ever in an HS Legacy GT I'd never driven before and therefore have a soft spot for them... I beat the cars owner by 5 seconds per run :banana:
| Scooby Freak | 09-22-2005 11:08 AM |
[QUOTE=DFL2.5RS]our showdown is scheduled for Oct. 2nd[/QUOTE]
So swap cars on your last run & it will be easy to prove your point. ;)
So swap cars on your last run & it will be easy to prove your point. ;)
| KC | 09-22-2005 11:10 AM |
[QUOTE=DFL2.5RS]but if you'll read the initial post this wasn't about drivers.[/QUOTE]
It wasn't? You said identical drivers....
[QUOTE] I'm going to list our cars and setups and if people could chip in with their opinion of which car would have an edge for the fastest RAW time (assume both have an IDENTICAL driver).[/QUOTE]
It's almost always about driver. Your bet could still go either way. The edge goes to the better driver, not the better car.
--kC
It wasn't? You said identical drivers....
[QUOTE] I'm going to list our cars and setups and if people could chip in with their opinion of which car would have an edge for the fastest RAW time (assume both have an IDENTICAL driver).[/QUOTE]
It's almost always about driver. Your bet could still go either way. The edge goes to the better driver, not the better car.
--kC
| PKer | 09-22-2005 12:24 PM |
If you don't want to buy dinner, at least get some decent tires before the race.
Every GC body style RS I've driven felt much better than my STX WRX, the times weren't faster, but I think that was mostly from having to shift to third and back.
Every GC body style RS I've driven felt much better than my STX WRX, the times weren't faster, but I think that was mostly from having to shift to third and back.
| Swine | 09-22-2005 12:31 PM |
The 225's on stock wrx rims will roll more then your momma's fat, my vote is for the 2.5.
| powerlabs | 09-22-2005 12:48 PM |
OK, the [URL=http://www.powerlabs.org/jdmsubaru.htm]JDM-Swapped Subaru 2.5RS[/URL] is actually my car, and I have the dinner bet with DFL2.5RS. He started this thread because I kept telling him that I DON'T have that much of an advantage. For starters, I am a decent driver; this is my 2nd autox season and I have been daily driving and working on this car for about 2 years (only 2 months since the swap though) now. Last year I placed 2nd locally (Houghton) in STX with it. DFL2.5RS certainly has autoxed a lot more than I did (I only got to go once this year) so maybe he has the edge there. Either way, instead of bench racing, I actually did take the car on an autox, and it sucked. The front kept plowing right through the cones because the car completely REFUSED to turn in. It was uncorrectable understeer; I could brake, give it gas, flick it into the turn; if it was going too fast, it would understeer and that was the end of that. On corner exit, applying throttle would result in tire spin as well.The incredible body roll provided by my stock suspension made the swaybars bind with a loud "clunk" every time I went into a turn, and on the slalom that body roll translated into the back end comming out and I spun out in one of the runs.
If you click on the picture on the bottom of the page you can watch my worst run. Its mildly amusing; I spin out and then leave some rubber and tire smoke exiting the last corner.
With stock suspension my car would not stand a chance against DFL2.5RS' WRX. No way. I was a full 4 seconds behind an STX WRX at the last autox.
With the new shocks and springs I am hoping I have a chance, but its really not the incredible advantage you guys are making it out to be.
Now, here is a question though:
Would I stand a chance in PAX corrected times (Me in SM, the WRX in STX) if I had some 215 Hoosiers?
If you click on the picture on the bottom of the page you can watch my worst run. Its mildly amusing; I spin out and then leave some rubber and tire smoke exiting the last corner.
With stock suspension my car would not stand a chance against DFL2.5RS' WRX. No way. I was a full 4 seconds behind an STX WRX at the last autox.
With the new shocks and springs I am hoping I have a chance, but its really not the incredible advantage you guys are making it out to be.
Now, here is a question though:
Would I stand a chance in PAX corrected times (Me in SM, the WRX in STX) if I had some 215 Hoosiers?
| Fred | 09-22-2005 12:59 PM |
[QUOTE]car completely REFUSED to turn in. It was uncorrectable understeer; I could brake, give it gas, flick it into the turn; if it was going too fast, it would understeer and that was the end of that. On corner exit, applying throttle would result in tire spin as well.[/QUOTE]
That definitely sounds like driver to me. :lol:
I took 2nd in pax in an STS RS with sway bars, 205/55/16 Azeni, and a cat-back exhaust. Stock 90k mile springs & struts. Trust me, your RS will flat [B]smoke[/B] that WRX with a good driver in each car.
That definitely sounds like driver to me. :lol:
I took 2nd in pax in an STS RS with sway bars, 205/55/16 Azeni, and a cat-back exhaust. Stock 90k mile springs & struts. Trust me, your RS will flat [B]smoke[/B] that WRX with a good driver in each car.
| ChrisW | 09-22-2005 01:17 PM |
the RS by a long shot.
| Scooby Freak | 09-22-2005 01:21 PM |
[QUOTE=powerlabs]With stock suspension my car would not stand a chance against DFL2.5RS' WRX. No way. I was a full 4 seconds behind an STX WRX at the last autox.[/QUOTE]
If you are both on decent street tires & you are 4 seconds back, it is mostly driver skill. Not to mention you have more power & less weight than an STX WRX. That body roll isn't the problem, just watch how fast the stock class cars can get around the course.
If you are both on decent street tires & you are 4 seconds back, it is mostly driver skill. Not to mention you have more power & less weight than an STX WRX. That body roll isn't the problem, just watch how fast the stock class cars can get around the course.
| Scooby South | 09-22-2005 02:27 PM |
one thing to note on his RS...Being a 99...it still has a OPEN Rear diff...whereas the MY00 had a Factory Rear LSD...which might account for some of his handling woes...
1 thing to note...More HP gets to the Turn quicker...therefore you have to brake earlier..;)...
Oh yeah..one other thing...SET the Rear Bar to 22...you will be much happier there..
Bill
1 thing to note...More HP gets to the Turn quicker...therefore you have to brake earlier..;)...
Oh yeah..one other thing...SET the Rear Bar to 22...you will be much happier there..
Bill
| ratt_finkel | 09-22-2005 02:44 PM |
[QUOTE=Patrick Olsen]
Regardless, I'd pwn you both.[/QUOTE]
I'm with Pat on this one.
Regardless, I'd pwn you both.[/QUOTE]
I'm with Pat on this one.
| 10th Warrior | 09-22-2005 03:12 PM |
[quote]one thing to note on his RS...Being a 99...it still has a OPEN Rear diff...whereas the MY00 had a Factory Rear LSD...which might account for some of his handling woes...[/quote]
of course, under 'driveline' for the RS it says "limited slip rear differential". not that the VCLSD makes a huge difference anyway.
of course, under 'driveline' for the RS it says "limited slip rear differential". not that the VCLSD makes a huge difference anyway.
| Scooby South | 09-22-2005 03:29 PM |
[QUOTE=10th Warrior]of course, under 'driveline' for the RS it says "limited slip rear differential". not that the VCLSD makes a huge difference anyway.[/QUOTE]
Actually it does...maybe not huge...but it does make a difference...
Ask Kartboy Tom about his time in his 99 Turbo'd RS with no LSD... :lol: :lol: :lol: He ended up buying a my00 rear diff..
Bill
Actually it does...maybe not huge...but it does make a difference...
Ask Kartboy Tom about his time in his 99 Turbo'd RS with no LSD... :lol: :lol: :lol: He ended up buying a my00 rear diff..
Bill
| jcroy66 | 09-22-2005 04:03 PM |
Definitely the RS.
Powerlabs, why are you braking, then giving it gas BEFORE turning?? You just negated part of the braking you just did... And "flicking" into a turn is (for most drivers) NOT the best way to enter a turn. My thought is your problem is largely driver skill (sorry to be harsh), not handling of your car.
As for corner exit, I'll repeat the advice I asterisked in my Evolution school notes: "Unwind THEN throttle".
Powerlabs, why are you braking, then giving it gas BEFORE turning?? You just negated part of the braking you just did... And "flicking" into a turn is (for most drivers) NOT the best way to enter a turn. My thought is your problem is largely driver skill (sorry to be harsh), not handling of your car.
As for corner exit, I'll repeat the advice I asterisked in my Evolution school notes: "Unwind THEN throttle".
| 10th Warrior | 09-22-2005 04:31 PM |
[quote]Actually it does...maybe not huge...but it does make a difference...[/quote]
i never said it made [i]no[/i] difference, just not huge, so, actually, you're agreeing with me ;)
i never said it made [i]no[/i] difference, just not huge, so, actually, you're agreeing with me ;)
| powerlabs | 09-22-2005 07:13 PM |
Erm...
�
�
Ummm...
So if I drive a car with STOCK suspension that was specifically designed, developed and tuned to make the car UNDERSTEER, and then I post that it understeers like there is no tomorrow, that somehow attests to me being a bad driver :confused:
So if I drive a car with STOCK suspension that was specifically designed, developed and tuned to make the car UNDERSTEER, and then I post that it understeers like there is no tomorrow, that somehow attests to me being a bad driver :confused:
| tuskenraider | 09-22-2005 07:47 PM |
Knowing that it inherently understeers means you should adjust your driving of the car to avoid this no?
| DFL2.5RS | 09-22-2005 07:49 PM |
well, I think people saying they'll smoke people at autocross without seeing them drive is a bit foolish... BUT overall I agree with everything that's been posted here... thanks everyone! as for buying dinner.. .I'm not concerned... the onlycar that ran faster than me at the last autocross was a caterham super 7 on race tires with a fairly experienced driver... and he only beat me by 1 second.... I can live with that margin :)
| DFL2.5RS | 09-22-2005 07:55 PM |
as far as a car inherrently designed to oversteer stock... well, that may be true but your car isn't stock sam... stiffer swaybars, and strut tower bars certainly don't hurt... additionally there are weight transfer techniques you can use to bring the tail of the car around more... that's part of the reason I don't plan on buying dinner :devil:
| Butt Dyno | 09-22-2005 08:00 PM |
[QUOTE=DFL2.5RS]as far as a car inherrently designed to oversteer stock... well, that may be true but your car isn't stock sam... stiffer swaybars, and strut tower bars certainly don't hurt... additionally there are weight transfer techniques you can use to bring the tail of the car around more... that's part of the reason I don't plan on buying dinner :devil:[/QUOTE]
(Insert [PM] button here)
(Insert [PM] button here)
| jetta4dr | 09-22-2005 08:17 PM |
Will beat you too reid in Kryms beemer.
| powerlabs | 09-22-2005 09:08 PM |
[QUOTE=jetta4dr]Will beat you too reid in Kryms beemer.[/QUOTE]
And the EVO8 beat him as well... But let him get cocky... I'll slap some Hoosiers on and then Reid will whine about how it "wasn't fair" :D
And the EVO8 beat him as well... But let him get cocky... I'll slap some Hoosiers on and then Reid will whine about how it "wasn't fair" :D
| DFL2.5RS | 09-22-2005 10:49 PM |
actually the evo8 didn't beat me at the last autocross... However, jetta is right... I was beaten by a modified BMW E30... I'll live though those are really nice cars and it had a great driver :)
| powerlabs | 09-22-2005 11:23 PM |
[QUOTE=DFL2.5RS]actually the evo8 didn't beat me at the last autocross... However, jetta is right... I was beaten by a modified BMW E30... I'll live though those are really nice cars and it had a great driver :)[/QUOTE]
Really nice car = 1980s nearly stock 2.5L N/A BMW? :huh:
Really nice car = 1980s nearly stock 2.5L N/A BMW? :huh:
| DFL2.5RS | 09-22-2005 11:31 PM |
anyone that autocrosses knows that a modded E30 is a SERIOUS contender... if you think the year matters your just being foolish... last I checked the laws of physics still applied in the 80's.... the laws of fashion... well that's another story entirely
| VW Carl | 09-22-2005 11:32 PM |
Thats cause neither of the evos showed up last time. I beat that caterham like 4 years ago in my old jetta when his tires were only 10 years old. And that was just when I had springs, tires, and a catback, so maybe 110hp and a crusty long ratio box. Pre fire-shooting days.
I may just have to put my old dunlops back on the golf so I can show you guys what half the hp and drive wheels can do. I'll let Will drive it too so that you guys get bumped down another place too :p We can always make an extra trohpy at the m&m shop if you feel like you need one.
Either that or Reid should let me take his car so that Peter has some competition.
There really arnt any above average drivers at the houghton autocrosses, so car choice makes so little of a difference. Go to a big scca autox with 200+ cars if you think you're all that, you'll get creamed. I would too no matter what car I was in. I know because I did.
Or just both quit your whining and throw down on the course and settle it like men. Then next season you can do what me and will are going to do at the ice trials. The first day we're both going to drive my golf, and the second day we're both going to drive will's volvo. Will called it settling the fwd vs rwd debate. I call it carl in a 68 volvo on ice = lots of sideways.
I may just have to put my old dunlops back on the golf so I can show you guys what half the hp and drive wheels can do. I'll let Will drive it too so that you guys get bumped down another place too :p We can always make an extra trohpy at the m&m shop if you feel like you need one.
Either that or Reid should let me take his car so that Peter has some competition.
There really arnt any above average drivers at the houghton autocrosses, so car choice makes so little of a difference. Go to a big scca autox with 200+ cars if you think you're all that, you'll get creamed. I would too no matter what car I was in. I know because I did.
Or just both quit your whining and throw down on the course and settle it like men. Then next season you can do what me and will are going to do at the ice trials. The first day we're both going to drive my golf, and the second day we're both going to drive will's volvo. Will called it settling the fwd vs rwd debate. I call it carl in a 68 volvo on ice = lots of sideways.
| DFL2.5RS | 09-22-2005 11:45 PM |
carl makes good points... hard to argue with that... I never said I could outdrive will or peter though so you're a little OT... no matter though...
| powerlabs | 09-22-2005 11:59 PM |
[QUOTE=DFL2.5RS]anyone that autocrosses knows that a modded E30 is a SERIOUS contender... if you think the year matters your just being foolish... last I checked the laws of physics still applied in the 80's.... the laws of fashion... well that's another story entirely[/QUOTE]
I would like to think that automotive engineering has evolved a little bit in the past 20 years... But I guess that would be foolish of me ;) ... Of course a modified WRX on coilovers should be losing to a 160horsepower rear wheel drive car with springs/shocks and PU bushings.
Lol, looks like this is going to be the most competitive Houghton has ever seen... :lol: :banana:
BTW Carl makes a good point. I've been to autoxes at Miller Park (Milwaukee) and in Appleton and its a totally different level of driving. You also get to see some serious cars there too, like the Lotus Elise on Hoosiers that took FTD the last autox I went to, beating even the go karts :lol:
I would like to think that automotive engineering has evolved a little bit in the past 20 years... But I guess that would be foolish of me ;) ... Of course a modified WRX on coilovers should be losing to a 160horsepower rear wheel drive car with springs/shocks and PU bushings.
Lol, looks like this is going to be the most competitive Houghton has ever seen... :lol: :banana:
BTW Carl makes a good point. I've been to autoxes at Miller Park (Milwaukee) and in Appleton and its a totally different level of driving. You also get to see some serious cars there too, like the Lotus Elise on Hoosiers that took FTD the last autox I went to, beating even the go karts :lol:
| Homemade WRX | 09-23-2005 12:20 AM |
[QUOTE=powerlabs]I would like to think that automotive engineering has evolved a little bit in the past 20 years... But I guess that would be foolish of me ;) [/QUOTE]
a chassis is a chassis and as far as 95% of the drivetrains out there, they are just drivetrains...so not much has really changed in the performance side of the industry other than engines in the past 20 years, givent he two cars we are talking about...
a chassis is a chassis and as far as 95% of the drivetrains out there, they are just drivetrains...so not much has really changed in the performance side of the industry other than engines in the past 20 years, givent he two cars we are talking about...
| ratt_finkel | 09-23-2005 09:41 AM |
[QUOTE=powerlabs]Ummm...
So if I drive a car with STOCK suspension that was specifically designed, developed and tuned to make the car UNDERSTEER, and then I post that it understeers like there is no tomorrow, that somehow attests to me being a bad driver :confused:[/QUOTE]
You can drive around the understeer, you have to with an RS. Once you properly set it up, the car is actually quite neutral.
So if I drive a car with STOCK suspension that was specifically designed, developed and tuned to make the car UNDERSTEER, and then I post that it understeers like there is no tomorrow, that somehow attests to me being a bad driver :confused:[/QUOTE]
You can drive around the understeer, you have to with an RS. Once you properly set it up, the car is actually quite neutral.
| Scooby Freak | 09-23-2005 12:40 PM |
[QUOTE=powerlabs]Ummm...
So if I drive a car with STOCK suspension that was specifically designed, developed and tuned to make the car UNDERSTEER, and then I post that it understeers like there is no tomorrow, that somehow attests to me being a bad driver :confused:[/QUOTE]
There's a big difference between a car that will understeer and driver induced understeer. Any car will understeer if you try to accelerate & increase steering at the same time (like there is no tomorrow). A skilled driver can minimize the understeer by using weight transfer to increase grip at the front to help the car turn in.
Now we're not calling you a bad driver. But if you keep thinking the problem is the car, then you will never improve the driver. Drivers can improve no matter how good they are. The fast drivers know this & that's how they have become fast in any car.
So if I drive a car with STOCK suspension that was specifically designed, developed and tuned to make the car UNDERSTEER, and then I post that it understeers like there is no tomorrow, that somehow attests to me being a bad driver :confused:[/QUOTE]
There's a big difference between a car that will understeer and driver induced understeer. Any car will understeer if you try to accelerate & increase steering at the same time (like there is no tomorrow). A skilled driver can minimize the understeer by using weight transfer to increase grip at the front to help the car turn in.
Now we're not calling you a bad driver. But if you keep thinking the problem is the car, then you will never improve the driver. Drivers can improve no matter how good they are. The fast drivers know this & that's how they have become fast in any car.
| powerlabs | 09-23-2005 12:47 PM |
[QUOTE=Scooby Freak]There's a big difference between a car that will understeer and driver induced understeer. Any car will understeer if you try to accelerate & increase steering at the same time (like there is no tomorrow). A skilled driver can minimize the understeer by using weight transfer to increase grip at the front to help the car turn in.
Now we're not calling you a bad driver. But if you keep thinking the problem is the car, then you will never improve the driver. Drivers can improve no matter how good they are. The fast drivers know this & that's how they have become fast in any car.[/QUOTE]
Oh, absolutely. I don't think you can ever be too good a driver. I really wish I could have autocrossed more this year (only went to one event) but my car was CONSTANTLY broken year round (engine blew up, did engine swap, needed new rear bearing, then new brakes, etc etc...).
I agree that the understeer/oversteer issue can be worked around somewhat by a skilled driver, but if I'm racing my car, I would like it to handle neutral... No one likes to go out of the course backwards or plow right into a barrier, and even pro drivers do that every once in a while.
Now we're not calling you a bad driver. But if you keep thinking the problem is the car, then you will never improve the driver. Drivers can improve no matter how good they are. The fast drivers know this & that's how they have become fast in any car.[/QUOTE]
Oh, absolutely. I don't think you can ever be too good a driver. I really wish I could have autocrossed more this year (only went to one event) but my car was CONSTANTLY broken year round (engine blew up, did engine swap, needed new rear bearing, then new brakes, etc etc...).
I agree that the understeer/oversteer issue can be worked around somewhat by a skilled driver, but if I'm racing my car, I would like it to handle neutral... No one likes to go out of the course backwards or plow right into a barrier, and even pro drivers do that every once in a while.
| DFL2.5RS | 09-23-2005 03:49 PM |
just a side note but if your car is spinning out of the course backwards, that's a pretty good sign of oversteer (excessive at that)... and back to the E30 I'm not saying the car is superior to mine, I'm just saying that it's a decent car and with a driver like will (who is very skilled) it makes for a very fast combo... hard for a noob like me to compete :P
| DFL2.5RS | 10-02-2005 10:36 PM |
alrighty, a little update here...
after tha autocross we've layed to rest the rumors that my WRX handles better than Sam's car as both of us posted faster times in his STI swapped RS... as far as drivers go, I beat Sam by a small margin, but nothing to get excited about... The big news of the Day was our friend Kelly (imp2.5 here on nasioc) running FTD at his first autocross ever in his 2.5RST.. Congrats kelly!!
:)
after tha autocross we've layed to rest the rumors that my WRX handles better than Sam's car as both of us posted faster times in his STI swapped RS... as far as drivers go, I beat Sam by a small margin, but nothing to get excited about... The big news of the Day was our friend Kelly (imp2.5 here on nasioc) running FTD at his first autocross ever in his 2.5RST.. Congrats kelly!!
:)
| powerlabs | 10-02-2005 11:45 PM |
I finished putting my car together at 5AM (Thanks Kelly!); I had it apart for 5 days port and polishing the exhaust headers and intake manifold, knife edging the throttle body, powdercoating the intake mani and header wrapping the headers. I also upped the boost back to 18.5PSI. The car was definitely very fast. I was even able to get it to handle exactly how I wanted on my last run (the suspension and rear swaybar I used was COMPLETELY untried untill this autox) by running different tire pressures and shock settings on each run.
And yes, my best run was slower than Reid's ONLY run on my own car... He also ran my car faster than he ran his own car.
Yes, he is the better driver... For now :D
Maybe if I had spent a little less time working on my car and a little more time practicing? Oh well... There is always rallycross :devil:
And yes, my best run was slower than Reid's ONLY run on my own car... He also ran my car faster than he ran his own car.
Yes, he is the better driver... For now :D
Maybe if I had spent a little less time working on my car and a little more time practicing? Oh well... There is always rallycross :devil:
| DFL2.5RS | 10-03-2005 04:20 PM |
thanks for the kind words sam... now... if I can only find some way to beat you and Kelly on gravel.... :P
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