| Lafora | 01-22-2002 01:47 PM |
FIA is getting fishy
what's this, they didn't enforce the penalty on Loeb????
Ohhhhh they just robbed Tommi!!!!:monkey:
Ohhhhh they just robbed Tommi!!!!:monkey:
| bliu | 01-22-2002 02:08 PM |
where are you getting this from? i just checked [url]www.wrc.com,[/url] rally-live, and worldrallynews.com ... all of them say that the decision is pending. (appeal to be ruled on jan. 29). the only place i saw anything that might give you the idea that a decision was made was on rally-live that said makinen was upset about the decision to not penalize loeb ... -yet-. so hold yer horses!;) most everyone thinks that when the decision comes down, loeb will get the 2 minute penalty and tommi will be monte carlo's winner for the 4th straight year!:D
| Lafora | 01-22-2002 02:23 PM |
rally-live
yeah, i guess i jumped the gun :D cuz later in the paragraph they said it's pending too..
yeah, i guess i jumped the gun :D cuz later in the paragraph they said it's pending too..
| Coati | 01-22-2002 02:27 PM |
Bliu is correct. Here's the latest:
Loeb appeal date announced
Monte Carlo · Citroen · Sébastien Loeb · 22/01/2002 16:58:38
The fate of Sebastien Loeb's Monte Carlo Rally win will be decided at the FIA Court of Appeal in Paris on Tuesday, January 29.
The Frenchman, who blew away the opposition at the 2002 season opener was given a suspended two-minute penalty when his Citroen mechanics illegally changed his tyres at the final service of leg two. The team appealed the decision and Loeb went on to score his first world championship victory.
If the penalty is upheld, Tommi Makinen will take the event honours, score his first victory for Subaru and become the sports most successful driver with 24 WRC victories.
The hearing will take place at the Hotel de Crillon adjacent to the FIA's Headquarters with the decision announced on Wednesday, January 30.
Loeb appeal date announced
Monte Carlo · Citroen · Sébastien Loeb · 22/01/2002 16:58:38
The fate of Sebastien Loeb's Monte Carlo Rally win will be decided at the FIA Court of Appeal in Paris on Tuesday, January 29.
The Frenchman, who blew away the opposition at the 2002 season opener was given a suspended two-minute penalty when his Citroen mechanics illegally changed his tyres at the final service of leg two. The team appealed the decision and Loeb went on to score his first world championship victory.
If the penalty is upheld, Tommi Makinen will take the event honours, score his first victory for Subaru and become the sports most successful driver with 24 WRC victories.
The hearing will take place at the Hotel de Crillon adjacent to the FIA's Headquarters with the decision announced on Wednesday, January 30.
| Subie Gal | 01-22-2002 02:30 PM |
the penalty will be upheld...
we just need to wait for the "official word..." :rolleyes:
jamie
[url]www.subiegal.com[/url]
we just need to wait for the "official word..." :rolleyes:
jamie
[url]www.subiegal.com[/url]
| Coati | 01-22-2002 02:32 PM |
Got my fingers crossed.:)
| johnfelstead | 01-22-2002 03:14 PM |
The minimum that will happen is Loeb will get the 2 minutes penalty. Dont be surprised if they disqualify them from the results entirely.
The FIA does not take kindly to its stewards decisions being apealed, they have a history of increasing the penalty at a tribunal. The only one in recent times i recall being overturned was for Ferrari, but that was to keep the F1 title battle alive and was not the same league as this.
Loeb's tyres and wheels were shipped to the FIA for inspection monday morning, the FIA steward who did this was sat next to me on the plane back to the UK. He can't yet understand why Citroen did this, it's a clear cut rule they broke. I hope they werent trying to hide some illegal components!
The FIA does not take kindly to its stewards decisions being apealed, they have a history of increasing the penalty at a tribunal. The only one in recent times i recall being overturned was for Ferrari, but that was to keep the F1 title battle alive and was not the same league as this.
Loeb's tyres and wheels were shipped to the FIA for inspection monday morning, the FIA steward who did this was sat next to me on the plane back to the UK. He can't yet understand why Citroen did this, it's a clear cut rule they broke. I hope they werent trying to hide some illegal components!
| orbit03 | 01-22-2002 04:16 PM |
You bring up a good point, John. A professional team like Citroen would obviously be aware of the regulations. There has to be a pretty good reason they took a chance with putting new rubber on the car.
| Scoobie Newbie | 01-22-2002 04:36 PM |
Is there any chance of finding the tires that they removed to verify if they were illegal.
| elgorey | 01-22-2002 04:52 PM |
If they were trying to hide something, how exactly would a tire be illegal? I didnt think there were restrictions on tires. Too wide? Illegal compound? Illegal studs?
| ColinL | 01-22-2002 04:57 PM |
I do feel some sympathy for Sebastien as he clearly drove quite well... but I completely agree that rules are rules and some sort of penalty is warranted. I don't know about disqualification versus the initial 2 minute penalty, but unless the lesser infraction is specified in the rulebook I would have some concerns about any illegal vehicle earning points above a legal one.
btw, loved the new same day 1 hour per event day coverage. incomparably better than the 1 hour per event super-compressed summary.
btw, loved the new same day 1 hour per event day coverage. incomparably better than the 1 hour per event super-compressed summary.
| Scoobie Newbie | 01-22-2002 05:25 PM |
Coati
Where did you get your info from?
| Coati | 01-22-2002 05:30 PM |
[url]www.wrc.com[/url]
| UnBiasedFan | 01-22-2002 05:50 PM |
Don't forget reality
Hey, be proud of the marque and all but don't blind yourelf to the fact that Loeb actually beat Makinen by a not insigificant amount. The tire change was unfortunate and penalty is due but he didn't drive on illegal tires nor does he stand accused of things that directly affected his stage performances. On the stages he just plain beat the pants off a pile of former champions and that's the reality. (Better than "quite well".) Makinen and Subaru have good reason to believe they'll come out on top but deep down they know that they got beat by a youngster.
The silly thing is that there's no need for Makinen to be so obnoxiously smug about it since the appeal will be denied and he'll be declared winner. It's pretty clear. A more thoughtful driver/team might congratulate young Loeb on a fine performance and feign pity for the penalty.
Have a nice day.
The silly thing is that there's no need for Makinen to be so obnoxiously smug about it since the appeal will be denied and he'll be declared winner. It's pretty clear. A more thoughtful driver/team might congratulate young Loeb on a fine performance and feign pity for the penalty.
Have a nice day.
| Big Tee | 01-22-2002 06:06 PM |
Also part of reality
What might've happened if Tommi had kept the hammer down throughout the last stage.
I belive I read he 'd been informed of the penalty (via radio) and eased off to ensure a shunt free finish.
I belive I read he 'd been informed of the penalty (via radio) and eased off to ensure a shunt free finish.
| WRXhauls | 01-22-2002 06:19 PM |
I also heard that they set the engine electronics to a more conservative setting once they knew first was a lock due to the penalty.
| Scoobie Newbie | 01-22-2002 06:50 PM |
I didn't think Makinen was smug. The rules are the rules. Sainez said it best, if he was wrong DQ, if not game on. (My rendition). Who's to say that the tires prior to the change weren't illegal and gave Loeb an unfair advantage.
| UnBiasedFan | 01-22-2002 07:37 PM |
Re: Also part of reality
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Big Tee [/i]
[B]What might've happened if Tommi had kept the hammer down throughout the last stage.
I belive I read he 'd been informed of the penalty (via radio) and eased off to ensure a shunt free finish. [/B][/QUOTE]
He didn't ease off that much and his stage times show it. Truth is that he could not have made up 40 seconds on him. Makinen certainly had the hammer down for the first two days and was not significantly faster. The biggest single stage gap Makinen pulled on him was SS1 with 13 seconds. And dare I mention that on three stages Loeb bested Makinen by over 25 seconds. Loeb's driving was not a fluke one or two stage thing. He and Makinen were driving equally well and equally hard such that 40 seconds was really a very wide margin by the end.
[B]What might've happened if Tommi had kept the hammer down throughout the last stage.
I belive I read he 'd been informed of the penalty (via radio) and eased off to ensure a shunt free finish. [/B][/QUOTE]
He didn't ease off that much and his stage times show it. Truth is that he could not have made up 40 seconds on him. Makinen certainly had the hammer down for the first two days and was not significantly faster. The biggest single stage gap Makinen pulled on him was SS1 with 13 seconds. And dare I mention that on three stages Loeb bested Makinen by over 25 seconds. Loeb's driving was not a fluke one or two stage thing. He and Makinen were driving equally well and equally hard such that 40 seconds was really a very wide margin by the end.
| johnfelstead | 01-22-2002 07:48 PM |
Hate to burst your bubble but Tommi backed off from the first stage of day 3 because of the penalty. It wasnt a straight fight at all.
It's irelevent though, Citroen broke the rules and they will recieve some punishment for it that will at least mean Tommi is declared the winner, they could have the penalty increased to a DSQ because they protested.
Why register a new name to post this? i find it hard to believe you arent a regular on here so why the mask, no one is gonna hate you for having an opinion that doesnt back Subaru.
Fact, Citroen broke the rules and were caught, deliberate or not doesnt matter! (unless the FIA discover illegal parts, then they are in deep ****)
It's irelevent though, Citroen broke the rules and they will recieve some punishment for it that will at least mean Tommi is declared the winner, they could have the penalty increased to a DSQ because they protested.
Why register a new name to post this? i find it hard to believe you arent a regular on here so why the mask, no one is gonna hate you for having an opinion that doesnt back Subaru.
Fact, Citroen broke the rules and were caught, deliberate or not doesnt matter! (unless the FIA discover illegal parts, then they are in deep ****)
| UnBiasedFan | 01-22-2002 07:51 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Scoobie Newbie [/i]
[B]Who's to say that the tires prior to the change weren't illegal and gave Loeb an unfair advantage. [/B][/QUOTE]
Oh, man, whatever. This is the blindness to reality I speak of. I can make up stuff too. Who's to say that Subaru didn't have an illegal turbo in Makinens car?
The reality is that Makinen had the pefectly fair advantage of four world rally championship titles yet Loeb proved himself to be equal on this French tarmac. Admit it. He was 40 seconds faster on the stages. It would have been an even bigger gap if Subaru hadn't made Loebs car die and cost him 20 seconds. :p
[B]Who's to say that the tires prior to the change weren't illegal and gave Loeb an unfair advantage. [/B][/QUOTE]
Oh, man, whatever. This is the blindness to reality I speak of. I can make up stuff too. Who's to say that Subaru didn't have an illegal turbo in Makinens car?
The reality is that Makinen had the pefectly fair advantage of four world rally championship titles yet Loeb proved himself to be equal on this French tarmac. Admit it. He was 40 seconds faster on the stages. It would have been an even bigger gap if Subaru hadn't made Loebs car die and cost him 20 seconds. :p
| Coati | 01-22-2002 08:05 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by UnBiasedFan [/i]
[B]
Oh, man, whatever. This is the blindness to reality I speak of[/B][/QUOTE]
You know, for an "unbiased fan" you seem to be doing a lot of defending of an unusual suspension of a not-so-unusual time penalty. Penalties are handed down all the time. If you want to talk about inconsequentiality, Colin's championship-costing penalty for showing up 30 seconds late at a meeting in Australia would have to top Citroen's violation of a rule they had just questioned for clarity. If Ford has to live with theirs, why shouldn't Citroen?
[B]
Oh, man, whatever. This is the blindness to reality I speak of[/B][/QUOTE]
You know, for an "unbiased fan" you seem to be doing a lot of defending of an unusual suspension of a not-so-unusual time penalty. Penalties are handed down all the time. If you want to talk about inconsequentiality, Colin's championship-costing penalty for showing up 30 seconds late at a meeting in Australia would have to top Citroen's violation of a rule they had just questioned for clarity. If Ford has to live with theirs, why shouldn't Citroen?
| UnBiasedFan | 01-22-2002 08:13 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by johnfelstead [/i]
[B]Hate to burst your bubble but Tommi backed off from the first stage of day 3 because of the penalty. It wasnt a straight fight at all.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Maybe he backed off, but up to that point it was straight and Loeb was right up there. If he's so fabulously better then how could he let this young gun have even a little lead to make day three so stressful for him?
<quote><b>It's irelevent though, Citroen broke the rules and they will recieve some punishment for it that will at least mean Tommi is declared the winner, they could have the penalty increased to a DSQ because they protested.</b></quote>
I'm all for rules and punishment. They deserve it. It was a really dumb move as was the appeal. But ignoring this administrative detail which did not affect Loebs drive (and only affected Makinen by making him back off) Loeb out-drove Makinen by a hair and three other champions by even bigger margins.
<quote><b>Why register a new name to post this? i find it hard to believe you arent a regular on here so why the mask, no one is gonna hate you for having an opinion that doesnt back Subaru.</b><quote>
Because I'm lame. And tired the blind Subaru faith.
<quote><b>Fact, Citroen broke the rules and were caught, deliberate or not doesnt matter! (unless the FIA discover illegal parts, then they are in deep ****) [/B][/QUOTE]
Fact, Loeb was faster on the stages. I like Makinen enough but as a person who just like to watch cars drive fast I just argue that Makinen got beat. As a driver he knows and to win on a technicality would be hollow deep down. (Though lucrative up top!)
Of course, throw Loeb on some gravel or snow and Makinen will clearly show why he's the champ. Makinen already showed his grit by adapting to the car so fluidly. Which is more than can be said for Burns who was plain lucky to find a road at the bottom of that slide or would have had a serious embarrassment with a retirement on his very first stage with Peugeot.
[B]Hate to burst your bubble but Tommi backed off from the first stage of day 3 because of the penalty. It wasnt a straight fight at all.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Maybe he backed off, but up to that point it was straight and Loeb was right up there. If he's so fabulously better then how could he let this young gun have even a little lead to make day three so stressful for him?
<quote><b>It's irelevent though, Citroen broke the rules and they will recieve some punishment for it that will at least mean Tommi is declared the winner, they could have the penalty increased to a DSQ because they protested.</b></quote>
I'm all for rules and punishment. They deserve it. It was a really dumb move as was the appeal. But ignoring this administrative detail which did not affect Loebs drive (and only affected Makinen by making him back off) Loeb out-drove Makinen by a hair and three other champions by even bigger margins.
<quote><b>Why register a new name to post this? i find it hard to believe you arent a regular on here so why the mask, no one is gonna hate you for having an opinion that doesnt back Subaru.</b><quote>
Because I'm lame. And tired the blind Subaru faith.
<quote><b>Fact, Citroen broke the rules and were caught, deliberate or not doesnt matter! (unless the FIA discover illegal parts, then they are in deep ****) [/B][/QUOTE]
Fact, Loeb was faster on the stages. I like Makinen enough but as a person who just like to watch cars drive fast I just argue that Makinen got beat. As a driver he knows and to win on a technicality would be hollow deep down. (Though lucrative up top!)
Of course, throw Loeb on some gravel or snow and Makinen will clearly show why he's the champ. Makinen already showed his grit by adapting to the car so fluidly. Which is more than can be said for Burns who was plain lucky to find a road at the bottom of that slide or would have had a serious embarrassment with a retirement on his very first stage with Peugeot.
| UnBiasedFan | 01-22-2002 08:24 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Coati [/i]
[B]
You know, for an "unbiased fan" you seem to be doing a lot of defending of an unusual suspension of a not-so-unusual time penalty. Penalties are handed down all the time. If you want to talk about inconsequentiality, Colin's championship-costing penalty for showing up 30 seconds late at a meeting in Australia would have to top Citroen's violation of a rule they had just questioned for clarity. If Ford has to live with theirs, why shouldn't Citroen? [/B][/QUOTE]
I'm not defending the penalty just observing that ignoring the penalty, which didn't affect his drive, he was blazingly fast and beat Makinen. Had Makinen not backed off he *might* have retaken it but it would have been an effort to do so over the last three stages with Loeb still tearing it up.
Penalties are handed down all the time and are part of the sport. But out on the stages, ignoring all the administrivia, championships and politics with drivers just doing what they do best Makinen got bested. Back in reality with all the administrivia , points and politics Makinen won but knows he got lucky this time.
(btw, sorry for screwing up my quoting in my other followup)
[B]
You know, for an "unbiased fan" you seem to be doing a lot of defending of an unusual suspension of a not-so-unusual time penalty. Penalties are handed down all the time. If you want to talk about inconsequentiality, Colin's championship-costing penalty for showing up 30 seconds late at a meeting in Australia would have to top Citroen's violation of a rule they had just questioned for clarity. If Ford has to live with theirs, why shouldn't Citroen? [/B][/QUOTE]
I'm not defending the penalty just observing that ignoring the penalty, which didn't affect his drive, he was blazingly fast and beat Makinen. Had Makinen not backed off he *might* have retaken it but it would have been an effort to do so over the last three stages with Loeb still tearing it up.
Penalties are handed down all the time and are part of the sport. But out on the stages, ignoring all the administrivia, championships and politics with drivers just doing what they do best Makinen got bested. Back in reality with all the administrivia , points and politics Makinen won but knows he got lucky this time.
(btw, sorry for screwing up my quoting in my other followup)
| johnfelstead | 01-22-2002 08:39 PM |
This is too funny.
You are arguing an imposible case as no one knows what the outcome would have been in a straight fight as the penalty does exist and Tommi did back off as a result.
Loeb is a very talented young driver who was exceptional on stage, no one is arguing that. The fact still remains Citroen broke the rules and so will lose a potential win. Thats all it was upto his penalty, a potential win. Loeb hasnt yet won a WRC event, i am sure he will in the future but to continue this rant is a waste of bandwidth. It's bloody boring too. :lol:
You are arguing an imposible case as no one knows what the outcome would have been in a straight fight as the penalty does exist and Tommi did back off as a result.
Loeb is a very talented young driver who was exceptional on stage, no one is arguing that. The fact still remains Citroen broke the rules and so will lose a potential win. Thats all it was upto his penalty, a potential win. Loeb hasnt yet won a WRC event, i am sure he will in the future but to continue this rant is a waste of bandwidth. It's bloody boring too. :lol:
| Thug | 01-23-2002 08:25 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by UnBiasedFan [/i]
[B]
Oh, man, whatever. This is the blindness to reality I speak of. I can make up stuff too. Who's to say that Subaru didn't have an illegal turbo in Makinens car?
[/B][/QUOTE]
Well that's why they have rules about when and where the teams can change tires and/or parts. Because if they didnt then teams would be cheating all the time. It's the only way they can enforce the rules on illegal parts and tires. But those are the rules, plain and simple. Therefore changing parts and/or tires at an illegal time or in an illegal zone is breaking the rules, just like using illegal parts or tires is breaking the rules.
Nobody's saying Loeb didnt have a spectacular drive. But Im about 90% sure that Tommi would have bettered Loeb on Leg 3 had he pushed 100%. You can do these things when you're a 4 time world champion and you've won this event the last 3 years straight.
And there's no blind Subaru faith here, up until last year the Mitsu was always my favorite car. But I dont like the new Evo VII so Id say my favorite car is the Peugeot.
[B]
Oh, man, whatever. This is the blindness to reality I speak of. I can make up stuff too. Who's to say that Subaru didn't have an illegal turbo in Makinens car?
[/B][/QUOTE]
Well that's why they have rules about when and where the teams can change tires and/or parts. Because if they didnt then teams would be cheating all the time. It's the only way they can enforce the rules on illegal parts and tires. But those are the rules, plain and simple. Therefore changing parts and/or tires at an illegal time or in an illegal zone is breaking the rules, just like using illegal parts or tires is breaking the rules.
Nobody's saying Loeb didnt have a spectacular drive. But Im about 90% sure that Tommi would have bettered Loeb on Leg 3 had he pushed 100%. You can do these things when you're a 4 time world champion and you've won this event the last 3 years straight.
And there's no blind Subaru faith here, up until last year the Mitsu was always my favorite car. But I dont like the new Evo VII so Id say my favorite car is the Peugeot.
| Herbie | 01-23-2002 12:03 PM |
Just like to interject one fact for the people who didn't get to watch the stage-by-stage times for Leg 3:
Early in the morning of Leg 3 Tommi had closed the gap to 18 seconds. In otherwords, over the course of 3 stages he cut his deficit to Loeb in half. With 5 more stages to go, (and most of these as long or longer than the first 3 stages) there was a definate possibility of removing the remaining 18 seconds.
Yes, Subaru/Prodrive changed the settings for the car. Yes, Tommi backed off, thinking that he was now over a minute thirty ahead of both Loeb (due to penalty) and Sainz (due to time). I would have done the same.
Early in the morning of Leg 3 Tommi had closed the gap to 18 seconds. In otherwords, over the course of 3 stages he cut his deficit to Loeb in half. With 5 more stages to go, (and most of these as long or longer than the first 3 stages) there was a definate possibility of removing the remaining 18 seconds.
Yes, Subaru/Prodrive changed the settings for the car. Yes, Tommi backed off, thinking that he was now over a minute thirty ahead of both Loeb (due to penalty) and Sainz (due to time). I would have done the same.
| brainrally | 01-23-2002 12:45 PM |
All I can say is that I wish this "illegal activity" had never occurred. I would have loved to watch Loeb and Makinen duking it out for first. Loeb was amazing for doing as well as he has for his first rally in a WRC car. I'm just glad he didn't have as much engine trouble as his teammates, because this would otherwise have been a boring rally really. Look at how far out front Loeb and Makinen were.
I feel pity for Richard because he's having new car blues, but this is just the first rally of the season. I'm actually glad to see that Carlos Sainz had a decent rally. It's too bad Colin had the car troubles he had, but at least he finished in the points.
I hope Citroen can iron out their engine problems, because having Loeb driving will keep things interesting. Otherwise it looks as though Subaru has an edge this season, since Makinen is taking to the car so well. And Subaru appears to have ironed out the "bugs" the Impreza seemed to have early last year.
Yes I'm rooting for Subaru, but I'm not so blind that I can't see that Loeb just laid the "smack" down on the whole field. It's too bad Citroen isn't running a whole WRC season, as it would be interesting to see how Loeb does. I'm eagerly waiting for the next rally, because I want to see how Makinen does with the Subaru in snow.
Oh yeah, Petter got a driver's point, and 2 manufacturer's points. He may not be as good as Loeb, but he's right up front with the veterans. Hopefully, he'll continue to improve. I liked Petter last year, and I'm rootin' for him again this year. Go Petter! Go Tommi! Go Subaru!
I feel pity for Richard because he's having new car blues, but this is just the first rally of the season. I'm actually glad to see that Carlos Sainz had a decent rally. It's too bad Colin had the car troubles he had, but at least he finished in the points.
I hope Citroen can iron out their engine problems, because having Loeb driving will keep things interesting. Otherwise it looks as though Subaru has an edge this season, since Makinen is taking to the car so well. And Subaru appears to have ironed out the "bugs" the Impreza seemed to have early last year.
Yes I'm rooting for Subaru, but I'm not so blind that I can't see that Loeb just laid the "smack" down on the whole field. It's too bad Citroen isn't running a whole WRC season, as it would be interesting to see how Loeb does. I'm eagerly waiting for the next rally, because I want to see how Makinen does with the Subaru in snow.
Oh yeah, Petter got a driver's point, and 2 manufacturer's points. He may not be as good as Loeb, but he's right up front with the veterans. Hopefully, he'll continue to improve. I liked Petter last year, and I'm rootin' for him again this year. Go Petter! Go Tommi! Go Subaru!
| Uncle_Git | 01-23-2002 12:45 PM |
No-one is arguing that Loeb didn't drive a very tidy rally - especially for his first WRC event.
I'm just curious why a team would KNOWINGLY break the rules to change tires on a car before locking it up for the night - especially they could do it just as easily and legally in the morning and avoid the penalty that could possibly cost them the rally ?
The only thing I can think of is they did not want the FIA officials having a poke at the ones used on stage.
Anyone know if the tires used on stage where snagged by the FIA officials ?
Unbiased fan - French per-chance ? :lol: :lol:
I'm just curious why a team would KNOWINGLY break the rules to change tires on a car before locking it up for the night - especially they could do it just as easily and legally in the morning and avoid the penalty that could possibly cost them the rally ?
The only thing I can think of is they did not want the FIA officials having a poke at the ones used on stage.
Anyone know if the tires used on stage where snagged by the FIA officials ?
Unbiased fan - French per-chance ? :lol: :lol:
| johnfelstead | 01-23-2002 12:55 PM |
yep, the wheels and tyres are now in Paris. Dunno if this is public knowledge or not but the FIA steward that spoted the change told me that was the case.
This isnt Loeb's first WRC drive anyway, he drove the Citroen WRC on an event last year after winning the F1600 championship and he finished 2nd overall then, almost winning. Loeb knows the monte roads very well, unlike most rallies the roads are open 364 days a year, there is little to stop him driving those roads in his car to memorise them. He also did a non WRC rally on these roads 2 months ago.
The guy is a genuine tallent on tarmac, i am looking forward to seeing him do a loose surface event.
This isnt Loeb's first WRC drive anyway, he drove the Citroen WRC on an event last year after winning the F1600 championship and he finished 2nd overall then, almost winning. Loeb knows the monte roads very well, unlike most rallies the roads are open 364 days a year, there is little to stop him driving those roads in his car to memorise them. He also did a non WRC rally on these roads 2 months ago.
The guy is a genuine tallent on tarmac, i am looking forward to seeing him do a loose surface event.
| Uncle_Git | 01-23-2002 12:57 PM |
Thanks for the update John - Oh yea - how'd what 1-0 feel last night ;-)
| brainrally | 01-23-2002 12:58 PM |
"UnbiasedFan" is trying so hard to be unbiased that he has become biased against Subaru and Makinen.
He accuses people in this thread of not being able to face reality, but when I read what has been said before his comments, I don't see deluded people proclaiming the greatness of Subaru or Tommi.
The fact is, Tommi had begun to close the gap. Could he have taken first? Yes, a definite possibility. He was that close. Could Loeb have kept first? Without a doubt he could have. The fact he was in first attests to that fact. It would have been a tough fight. Had not this penalty thing come up, then Tommi and his fans would have to admit that Loeb bested him. But because of this situation with the penalty, the situation is unclear. But the fact remains that Loeb finished in front. The argument is whether Tommi could've snatched first away.
And that's where opinion comes in, and the biases we cherish. And we argue. And it matters about as much as the itch on a bull's butt.
He accuses people in this thread of not being able to face reality, but when I read what has been said before his comments, I don't see deluded people proclaiming the greatness of Subaru or Tommi.
The fact is, Tommi had begun to close the gap. Could he have taken first? Yes, a definite possibility. He was that close. Could Loeb have kept first? Without a doubt he could have. The fact he was in first attests to that fact. It would have been a tough fight. Had not this penalty thing come up, then Tommi and his fans would have to admit that Loeb bested him. But because of this situation with the penalty, the situation is unclear. But the fact remains that Loeb finished in front. The argument is whether Tommi could've snatched first away.
And that's where opinion comes in, and the biases we cherish. And we argue. And it matters about as much as the itch on a bull's butt.
| johnfelstead | 01-23-2002 01:03 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Uncle_Git [/i]
[B]Thanks for the update John - Oh yea - how'd what 1-0 feel last night ;-) [/B][/QUOTE]
fine for me, i dont support Man Utd. :D
[B]Thanks for the update John - Oh yea - how'd what 1-0 feel last night ;-) [/B][/QUOTE]
fine for me, i dont support Man Utd. :D
| Verist | 01-23-2002 11:43 PM |
I think some of the rumors I was reading about had Citroen using some kind illegal inflation system on the tires. Nicky Grist's comment on Rally radio that Loeb had been in a rally 2 month prior at that it was against the rules. Also, before we anoint Loeb as the "The best driver ever" lets see him drive on something other than tarmac.
Regan-
Regan-
| brainrally | 01-24-2002 12:00 PM |
I looked on [url]www.wrc.com[/url] and it looks like Loeb is entered in the Sweden rallye, if I read it correctly. We'll know in about a week and a half.
| Thug | 01-24-2002 12:40 PM |
yes he is
1 BURNS Richard - REID Robert Peugeot 206 A8
2 GRÖNHOLM Marcus - RAUTIAINEN Timo Peugeot 206 A8
3 ROVANPERÄ Harri - PIETILAINEN Risto Peugeot 206 A8
4 SAINZ Carlos - MOYA Luis Ford Focus RS A8
5 McRAE Colin - GRIST Nicky Ford Focus RS A8
6 MÄRTIN Markko - PARK Michael Ford Focus RS A8
7 DELECOUR Francois - GRATALOUP Daniel Mitsubishi Lancer A8
8 MCRAE Alister - SENIOR David Mitsubishi Lancer A8
9 PAASONEN Jani - KAPANEN Arto Mitsubishi Lancer A8
10 MÄKINEN Tommi - LINDSTRÖM Kaj Subaru Impreza A8
11 SOLBERG Petter - MILLS Philip Subaru Impreza A8
14 ERIKSSON Kenneth - THÖRNER Tina Skoda Octavia A8
15 GARDEMEISTER Toni - LUKANDER Paavo Skoda Octavia A8
16 BLOMQVIST Stig - GONI Ana Skoda Octavia A8
17 SCHWARZ Armin - HEIMER Manfred Hyundai Accent A8
18 LOIX Freddy - SMEETS Sven Hyundai Accent A8
19 KANKKUNEN Juha - REPO Juha Hyundai Accent A8
20 RÅDSTRÖM Thomas - GIRAUDET Denis Citroën Xsara A8
<b>21 LOEB Sébastien - ELENA Daniel Citroën Xsara A8</b>
23 DUVAL Francois - FORTIN Jean-Marc Ford Focus RS A8
24 PANIZZI Gilles - PANIZZI Herve Peugeot 206 A8
31 LINDHOLM Sebastian - HANTUNEN Timo Peugeot 206 A8
32 SOLBERG Henning - MENKERUD Cato Toyota Corolla A8
33 TUOHINO Janne - VIHAVAINEN Petri Ford Focus RS A8
34 PYKÄLISTÖ Juuso - MERTSALMI Esko Toyota Corolla A8
51 TRELLES Gustavo - DEL BUONO Jorge Mitsubishi Lancer N4
53 FIORIO Alessandro - CANTONI Enrico Mitsubishi Lancer N4
55 GIRDAUSKAS Saulius - SAKALAUSKAS Z. Mitsubishi Lancer N4
57 ARAI Toshiiro - SIRCOMBE Tony Subaru Impreza N4
59 BARRATT Natalie - FREEMAN Roger Mitsubishi Lancer N4
60 BRIANT Ben - X Mitsubishi Lancer N4
62 CANGANI Norberto - DI PRIMA Eros Mitsubishi Lancer N4
64 ELSMORE Nik - BROWN Jayson Mitsubishi Lancer N4
66 ILIEV Dimitar - SIVOV Petar Mitsubishi Lancer N4
67 IPATTI Marko - KAJULA Kari Mitsubishi Lancer N4
69 KOLLEVOLD Bernt - BODILSEN Olav Mitsubishi Lancer N4
72 ROMAN Joakim - MITAKIDOU Tina Mitsubishi Lancer N4
73 ROWE Martin - WOOD Chris Mitsubishi Lancer N4
75 SOHLBERG Kristian - AHO Jukka Mitsubishi Lancer N4
76 VALOUSEK Pavel - SCALVINI Piero Mitsubishi Lancer N4
101 KOLBERG Kristian - PETTERSSON Kjell Hyundai Accent A8
102 VÄLIMÄKI Jussi - GARDEMEISTER Tero Toyota Corolla A8
103 KRESSNER Johan - WIGERT Lief Subaru Impreza A8
104 KOLBERG Thomas - FLÖEN Ola Hyundai Accent A8
105 THUNSTRÖM Thomas - THUNSTRÖM Robert Toyota Corolla A8
106 DALSJÖ Rune - KJERNSLI Stig Rune Subaru Impreza N4
107 BÄCKLUND Kenneth - GEVERT Jocke Mitsubishi Lancer N4
108 ASUNTA Antti - HANNONEN Tuomo Mitsubishi Car. N4
109 WALFRIDSON Stig-Olov - BÄCKMAN Lars Mitsubishi Lancer N4
110 KANGAS Juha - OVASKAINEN Mika Mitsubishi Lancer N4
111 CARLSSON Daniel - ANDERSSON Mattias Mitsubishi Lancer N4
112 SVEDLUNDOscar - NILSSON Björn Mitsubishi Lancer N4
113 KUCHAR Tomasz - SZCEPANIAK Maciej Toyota Corolla A8
114 HRDINKA Tomás - GROSS Petr Subaru Impreza A8
115 PAPADIMITRIOU Ioannis - HARRYMAN A. Subaru Imprezza A8
116 BRYNILDSEN Per Erik - RÖNNING Arne Mitsubishi Lancer N4
117 JOHANSSON Tobias - JOHANSSON Mikael Mitsubishi Lancer N4
118 KETOMAA Jari - LEHTUNEN Ossi Subaru Impreza N4
119 HÖISTAD Knut - IVERSEN Pål Mitsubishi Lancer N4
120 KULIG Janusz - BARAN Jaroslaw Mitsubishi Lancer N4
121 DYTKO Pavel - DYTKO Tom Mitsubishi Lancer N4
122 JOHANSSON Per - CARLSSON Tony Saab 9-3 A7
123 ERIKSSON Andreas - HENRIKSSON Patrick Ford Puma A6
124 SÄÄV Per-Arne - FREDRIKSSON Leif VW Golf Kit Car A7
125 SCHIE Thomas - ENGEN Ragnar Subaru Imprezza N4
126 JANSSON Magnus - FREDRIKSSON Thomas Mitsubishi Lancer N4
127 LINNERUD Tord - ISDAL Henning Mitsubishi Lancer N4
128 PALMQVIST Pelle - Håkan Jacobsson Mitsubishi Lancer N4
129 OLSSON Tobias - ANDERSSON Stefan Mitsubishi Lancer N4
130 GUSTAFSSON Tobias - LEIERTH Fredrik Mitsubishi Lancer N4
131 ANDERSEN Svein Roger - ANDERSEN Ivar Mitsubishi Lancer N4
132 DE DOMINICIS Alfredo - MARI Aless. Mitsubishi Lancer N4
133 FELDMANN Anders - OTTENBURGER Gerd Mitsubishi Lancer N4
134 DICKENS Stanley - ROSÉN Lars Mitsubishi Lancer N4
135 ANDERSSON Lars-Göran - WÄNN Anders Subaru Impreza N4
136 WIKMAN Lars - BÖRJESSON Sven Mitsubishi Lancer N4
137 STAFF Einar - HALDEN Thorleif Subaru Impreza N4
138 WILKS Guy - HERRON Roger Mitsubishi Lancer N4
139 VIRAG Mirco - BERGNA Massimo Mitsubishi Lancer N4
140 ERRANI Riccardo - CASADLO Stefano Mitsubishi Lancer N4
141 BARBARA Jose - DUTHOIT Mirelli Subaru Impreza N4
142 FLOREN Anders - ROSÉN Curt VW Golf GTI A7
143 ANDERSSON Per-Gunnar - ANDERSSON J. Renault Clio N3
144 STORM Lars - STORM Ulf Citroën Xsara VTS N3
145 JUNTTILA Esko - KRONBERG Lars-Erik Suzuki Swift N1
2 GRÖNHOLM Marcus - RAUTIAINEN Timo Peugeot 206 A8
3 ROVANPERÄ Harri - PIETILAINEN Risto Peugeot 206 A8
4 SAINZ Carlos - MOYA Luis Ford Focus RS A8
5 McRAE Colin - GRIST Nicky Ford Focus RS A8
6 MÄRTIN Markko - PARK Michael Ford Focus RS A8
7 DELECOUR Francois - GRATALOUP Daniel Mitsubishi Lancer A8
8 MCRAE Alister - SENIOR David Mitsubishi Lancer A8
9 PAASONEN Jani - KAPANEN Arto Mitsubishi Lancer A8
10 MÄKINEN Tommi - LINDSTRÖM Kaj Subaru Impreza A8
11 SOLBERG Petter - MILLS Philip Subaru Impreza A8
14 ERIKSSON Kenneth - THÖRNER Tina Skoda Octavia A8
15 GARDEMEISTER Toni - LUKANDER Paavo Skoda Octavia A8
16 BLOMQVIST Stig - GONI Ana Skoda Octavia A8
17 SCHWARZ Armin - HEIMER Manfred Hyundai Accent A8
18 LOIX Freddy - SMEETS Sven Hyundai Accent A8
19 KANKKUNEN Juha - REPO Juha Hyundai Accent A8
20 RÅDSTRÖM Thomas - GIRAUDET Denis Citroën Xsara A8
<b>21 LOEB Sébastien - ELENA Daniel Citroën Xsara A8</b>
23 DUVAL Francois - FORTIN Jean-Marc Ford Focus RS A8
24 PANIZZI Gilles - PANIZZI Herve Peugeot 206 A8
31 LINDHOLM Sebastian - HANTUNEN Timo Peugeot 206 A8
32 SOLBERG Henning - MENKERUD Cato Toyota Corolla A8
33 TUOHINO Janne - VIHAVAINEN Petri Ford Focus RS A8
34 PYKÄLISTÖ Juuso - MERTSALMI Esko Toyota Corolla A8
51 TRELLES Gustavo - DEL BUONO Jorge Mitsubishi Lancer N4
53 FIORIO Alessandro - CANTONI Enrico Mitsubishi Lancer N4
55 GIRDAUSKAS Saulius - SAKALAUSKAS Z. Mitsubishi Lancer N4
57 ARAI Toshiiro - SIRCOMBE Tony Subaru Impreza N4
59 BARRATT Natalie - FREEMAN Roger Mitsubishi Lancer N4
60 BRIANT Ben - X Mitsubishi Lancer N4
62 CANGANI Norberto - DI PRIMA Eros Mitsubishi Lancer N4
64 ELSMORE Nik - BROWN Jayson Mitsubishi Lancer N4
66 ILIEV Dimitar - SIVOV Petar Mitsubishi Lancer N4
67 IPATTI Marko - KAJULA Kari Mitsubishi Lancer N4
69 KOLLEVOLD Bernt - BODILSEN Olav Mitsubishi Lancer N4
72 ROMAN Joakim - MITAKIDOU Tina Mitsubishi Lancer N4
73 ROWE Martin - WOOD Chris Mitsubishi Lancer N4
75 SOHLBERG Kristian - AHO Jukka Mitsubishi Lancer N4
76 VALOUSEK Pavel - SCALVINI Piero Mitsubishi Lancer N4
101 KOLBERG Kristian - PETTERSSON Kjell Hyundai Accent A8
102 VÄLIMÄKI Jussi - GARDEMEISTER Tero Toyota Corolla A8
103 KRESSNER Johan - WIGERT Lief Subaru Impreza A8
104 KOLBERG Thomas - FLÖEN Ola Hyundai Accent A8
105 THUNSTRÖM Thomas - THUNSTRÖM Robert Toyota Corolla A8
106 DALSJÖ Rune - KJERNSLI Stig Rune Subaru Impreza N4
107 BÄCKLUND Kenneth - GEVERT Jocke Mitsubishi Lancer N4
108 ASUNTA Antti - HANNONEN Tuomo Mitsubishi Car. N4
109 WALFRIDSON Stig-Olov - BÄCKMAN Lars Mitsubishi Lancer N4
110 KANGAS Juha - OVASKAINEN Mika Mitsubishi Lancer N4
111 CARLSSON Daniel - ANDERSSON Mattias Mitsubishi Lancer N4
112 SVEDLUNDOscar - NILSSON Björn Mitsubishi Lancer N4
113 KUCHAR Tomasz - SZCEPANIAK Maciej Toyota Corolla A8
114 HRDINKA Tomás - GROSS Petr Subaru Impreza A8
115 PAPADIMITRIOU Ioannis - HARRYMAN A. Subaru Imprezza A8
116 BRYNILDSEN Per Erik - RÖNNING Arne Mitsubishi Lancer N4
117 JOHANSSON Tobias - JOHANSSON Mikael Mitsubishi Lancer N4
118 KETOMAA Jari - LEHTUNEN Ossi Subaru Impreza N4
119 HÖISTAD Knut - IVERSEN Pål Mitsubishi Lancer N4
120 KULIG Janusz - BARAN Jaroslaw Mitsubishi Lancer N4
121 DYTKO Pavel - DYTKO Tom Mitsubishi Lancer N4
122 JOHANSSON Per - CARLSSON Tony Saab 9-3 A7
123 ERIKSSON Andreas - HENRIKSSON Patrick Ford Puma A6
124 SÄÄV Per-Arne - FREDRIKSSON Leif VW Golf Kit Car A7
125 SCHIE Thomas - ENGEN Ragnar Subaru Imprezza N4
126 JANSSON Magnus - FREDRIKSSON Thomas Mitsubishi Lancer N4
127 LINNERUD Tord - ISDAL Henning Mitsubishi Lancer N4
128 PALMQVIST Pelle - Håkan Jacobsson Mitsubishi Lancer N4
129 OLSSON Tobias - ANDERSSON Stefan Mitsubishi Lancer N4
130 GUSTAFSSON Tobias - LEIERTH Fredrik Mitsubishi Lancer N4
131 ANDERSEN Svein Roger - ANDERSEN Ivar Mitsubishi Lancer N4
132 DE DOMINICIS Alfredo - MARI Aless. Mitsubishi Lancer N4
133 FELDMANN Anders - OTTENBURGER Gerd Mitsubishi Lancer N4
134 DICKENS Stanley - ROSÉN Lars Mitsubishi Lancer N4
135 ANDERSSON Lars-Göran - WÄNN Anders Subaru Impreza N4
136 WIKMAN Lars - BÖRJESSON Sven Mitsubishi Lancer N4
137 STAFF Einar - HALDEN Thorleif Subaru Impreza N4
138 WILKS Guy - HERRON Roger Mitsubishi Lancer N4
139 VIRAG Mirco - BERGNA Massimo Mitsubishi Lancer N4
140 ERRANI Riccardo - CASADLO Stefano Mitsubishi Lancer N4
141 BARBARA Jose - DUTHOIT Mirelli Subaru Impreza N4
142 FLOREN Anders - ROSÉN Curt VW Golf GTI A7
143 ANDERSSON Per-Gunnar - ANDERSSON J. Renault Clio N3
144 STORM Lars - STORM Ulf Citroën Xsara VTS N3
145 JUNTTILA Esko - KRONBERG Lars-Erik Suzuki Swift N1
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