| zzyzx | 12-28-2004 04:03 PM |
Grand Am or World Challenge?
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The discussion is for the other thread entitled [url="http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=689199"]Nasioc Sponsored Grand Am WRX[/url].
This thread is to assess which series would be preferred by you - the sponsors - assuming you're willing to contribute money.
Please keep this thread limited to the merits of each series, not the idea as a whole.
- Steve Sulatycki
This thread is to assess which series would be preferred by you - the sponsors - assuming you're willing to contribute money.
Please keep this thread limited to the merits of each series, not the idea as a whole.
- Steve Sulatycki
| buzz313th | 12-28-2004 04:06 PM |
I would just like to throw my two cents in....
I think we should leave the decision up to Gary and his Team... They are the professionals...
Just my two cents...
I think we should leave the decision up to Gary and his Team... They are the professionals...
Just my two cents...
| zzyzx | 12-28-2004 04:15 PM |
True, but the reality is that the market and marketing are different. Sponsors often drive what a team does, and this situation is no different.
I think we'll see an overwhelming response to World Challenge here as AFAIK most people where are WC fans, not Grand Am.
In other words, the sponsors always do - and should - have a voice.
I'm in either way, but I have a very strong preference for WCTC.
- Steve
I think we'll see an overwhelming response to World Challenge here as AFAIK most people where are WC fans, not Grand Am.
In other words, the sponsors always do - and should - have a voice.
I'm in either way, but I have a very strong preference for WCTC.
- Steve
| buzz313th | 12-28-2004 04:20 PM |
[QUOTE=zzyzx]True, but the reality is that the market and marketing are different. Sponsors often drive what a team does, and this situation is no different.
I think we'll see an overwhelming response to World Challenge here as AFAIK most people where are WC fans, not Grand Am.
In other words, the sponsors always do - and should - have a voice.
I'm in either way, but I have a very strong preference for WCTC.
- Steve[/QUOTE]
Remember... that even though we are in a position here to fund a race team. As a sponsor I think we should just play the role of "A Funding Body". We don't want to scare away Gary because we are demanding too much. Remember, Gary has spent a good portion of his life to achieve his goal of "Proffesional Race Car Driver". Not many of us can say the same. My Oppinion is that we play this and give Gary the pure decision on what would be best. Personally I don't really care what series we see the WRX in.... As long as we just "See It"...
If we can pull this off we should just lay back and let the pro's do there jobs.
I think we'll see an overwhelming response to World Challenge here as AFAIK most people where are WC fans, not Grand Am.
In other words, the sponsors always do - and should - have a voice.
I'm in either way, but I have a very strong preference for WCTC.
- Steve[/QUOTE]
Remember... that even though we are in a position here to fund a race team. As a sponsor I think we should just play the role of "A Funding Body". We don't want to scare away Gary because we are demanding too much. Remember, Gary has spent a good portion of his life to achieve his goal of "Proffesional Race Car Driver". Not many of us can say the same. My Oppinion is that we play this and give Gary the pure decision on what would be best. Personally I don't really care what series we see the WRX in.... As long as we just "See It"...
If we can pull this off we should just lay back and let the pro's do there jobs.
| M | 12-28-2004 04:46 PM |
if you read what gary has posted recently. He is on the grand am cup side. The car will not be competitive in WC
| Bagelw | 12-28-2004 04:55 PM |
Has the SCCA officially released word on the WRX being able to run in WC? I haven't heard anything about it for a while but I haven't been keeping up as much lately.
| zzyzx | 12-28-2004 04:58 PM |
Pure speculation, as I noted in the other thread. You mentioned the '07 season already and there's no doubt in my mind that FI cars will be competitive by then. There are a lot of teams that will run FI cars in '05, let alone '07. I don't know how anybody could make the blanket statement that FI cars will "never be competitive" in WCTC. Gary has prepped his USTCC car to similar levels required by WCTC.
For Grand Am in GS as [i]you[/i] already noted the car won't have much luck up against that type of competition. Did you forget what you posted on this already, or should I quote it here for you?
Perhaps it would be better to look at the relative costs of WCTC vs. Grand Am / GS and go from there...
- Steve
For Grand Am in GS as [i]you[/i] already noted the car won't have much luck up against that type of competition. Did you forget what you posted on this already, or should I quote it here for you?
Perhaps it would be better to look at the relative costs of WCTC vs. Grand Am / GS and go from there...
- Steve
| zzyzx | 12-28-2004 05:03 PM |
[QUOTE=Bagelw]Has the SCCA officially released word on the WRX being able to run in WC? I haven't heard anything about it for a while but I haven't been keeping up as much lately.[/QUOTE]
Yes, it's legal. FI cars are now legal in WCTC and the WRX is specifically listed as eligible. The Vehicle Technical Spec sheet is far from complete and usually isn't complete until a team builds a car and starts competing it.
- Steve
Yes, it's legal. FI cars are now legal in WCTC and the WRX is specifically listed as eligible. The Vehicle Technical Spec sheet is far from complete and usually isn't complete until a team builds a car and starts competing it.
- Steve
| parker/slc/gc8fan | 12-28-2004 05:05 PM |
i like world challenges racing much better, the competition is very close, and the better cars get weighted to ensure dificult championships.
subaru needs to be there imo.
grand am is full of too many other classes for me, not to mention the open budgets of factory supported teams. a forum funded car could never beat them.
i cant remember if the ustcc car was ever actually sold. maybe it's only a few mods away.
has anyone sonsidered the national championships at mid ohio, thats only one race and it amkes a big statemnt when winning.
subaru needs to be there imo.
grand am is full of too many other classes for me, not to mention the open budgets of factory supported teams. a forum funded car could never beat them.
i cant remember if the ustcc car was ever actually sold. maybe it's only a few mods away.
has anyone sonsidered the national championships at mid ohio, thats only one race and it amkes a big statemnt when winning.
| Bagelw | 12-28-2004 05:34 PM |
I don't understand how someone can say FI cars won't be competitive in WC Touring. I'm thinking the opposite of that actually. Turner, Mazda, and RTR should be worried unless they decide to do some manufacturer switching.
| GarySheehan | 12-28-2004 05:43 PM |
Just checking in. Here are a couple of things I've been thinking about that might influence you as well.
#1 Do not limit this to a WRX discussion. Let's have the scope be "Subaru" in racing, not WRX. There are other options
#2 SCCA themselves have stated that FI cars will not be competitive the first year in order to protect the investments of the teams that are currently competing. Also consider that World Challenge damned near killed itself the last time they allowed FI cars and just about every manufacturer that didn't offer or want to race turbos pulled out. While FI cars may eventually become competitive, they will not be the package of choice. SCCA won't make the same mistake again.
#3 Grand-Am as a whole is making huge strides in getting publicity for their events. Being owned by the France family and it's marketing machine will work wonders for this series. Grand-Am Cup does not have too many classes. It has 2. Grand Sport and Street Touring. Just like World Challenge. The only difference is they run together on the track and for longer time. This series is growing fast, has better control of costs and ultimately has a better chance at more publicity.
#4 A particular Subaru product I am thinking about absolutely will be competetive in Grand-Am Cup GS, for less money than a World Challenge Touring Car WRX that won't be competitive. Read the rules.
#5 I REALLY love watching World-Challenge. It's a great series. I would be focusing all of my effort on that series if I thought the WRX was the package to have.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
#1 Do not limit this to a WRX discussion. Let's have the scope be "Subaru" in racing, not WRX. There are other options
#2 SCCA themselves have stated that FI cars will not be competitive the first year in order to protect the investments of the teams that are currently competing. Also consider that World Challenge damned near killed itself the last time they allowed FI cars and just about every manufacturer that didn't offer or want to race turbos pulled out. While FI cars may eventually become competitive, they will not be the package of choice. SCCA won't make the same mistake again.
#3 Grand-Am as a whole is making huge strides in getting publicity for their events. Being owned by the France family and it's marketing machine will work wonders for this series. Grand-Am Cup does not have too many classes. It has 2. Grand Sport and Street Touring. Just like World Challenge. The only difference is they run together on the track and for longer time. This series is growing fast, has better control of costs and ultimately has a better chance at more publicity.
#4 A particular Subaru product I am thinking about absolutely will be competetive in Grand-Am Cup GS, for less money than a World Challenge Touring Car WRX that won't be competitive. Read the rules.
#5 I REALLY love watching World-Challenge. It's a great series. I would be focusing all of my effort on that series if I thought the WRX was the package to have.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| buzz313th | 12-28-2004 05:48 PM |
[QUOTE=GarySheehan]Just checking in. Here are a couple of things I've been thinking about that might influence you as well.
#1 Do not limit this to a WRX discussion. Let's have the scope be "Subaru" in racing, not WRX. There are other options
#2 SCCA themselves have stated that FI cars will not be competitive the first year in order to protect the investments of the teams that are currently competing. Also consider that World Challenge damned near killed itself the last time they allowed FI cars and just about every manufacturer that didn't offer or want to race turbos pulled out. While FI cars may eventually become competitive, they will not be the package of choice. SCCA won't make the same mistake again.
#3 Grand-Am as a whole is making huge strides in getting publicity for their events. Being owned by the France family and it's marketing machine will work wonders for this series. Grand-Am Cup does not have too many classes. It has 2. Grand Sport and Street Touring. Just like World Challenge. The only difference is they run together on the track and for longer time. This series is growing fast, has better control of costs and ultimately has a better chance at more publicity.
#4 A particular Subaru product I am thinking about absolutely will be competetive in Grand-Am Cup GS, for less money than a World Challenge Touring Car WRX that won't be competitive. Read the rules.
#5 I REALLY love watching World-Challenge. It's a great series. I would be focusing all of my effort on that series if I thought the WRX was the package to have.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url][/QUOTE]
An Impreza is an Impreza, whether we call it a WRX or A STI... as a matter of fact the STI is a WRX... So for sake of Generality lets say Impreza (RS, WRX, STI) It makes no difference to me.... Now if U'r thinkin about some other model in the subaru line... U have got me stumped... :)
Edited cause fellow members were making fun of my Literature skills... :D
#1 Do not limit this to a WRX discussion. Let's have the scope be "Subaru" in racing, not WRX. There are other options
#2 SCCA themselves have stated that FI cars will not be competitive the first year in order to protect the investments of the teams that are currently competing. Also consider that World Challenge damned near killed itself the last time they allowed FI cars and just about every manufacturer that didn't offer or want to race turbos pulled out. While FI cars may eventually become competitive, they will not be the package of choice. SCCA won't make the same mistake again.
#3 Grand-Am as a whole is making huge strides in getting publicity for their events. Being owned by the France family and it's marketing machine will work wonders for this series. Grand-Am Cup does not have too many classes. It has 2. Grand Sport and Street Touring. Just like World Challenge. The only difference is they run together on the track and for longer time. This series is growing fast, has better control of costs and ultimately has a better chance at more publicity.
#4 A particular Subaru product I am thinking about absolutely will be competetive in Grand-Am Cup GS, for less money than a World Challenge Touring Car WRX that won't be competitive. Read the rules.
#5 I REALLY love watching World-Challenge. It's a great series. I would be focusing all of my effort on that series if I thought the WRX was the package to have.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url][/QUOTE]
An Impreza is an Impreza, whether we call it a WRX or A STI... as a matter of fact the STI is a WRX... So for sake of Generality lets say Impreza (RS, WRX, STI) It makes no difference to me.... Now if U'r thinkin about some other model in the subaru line... U have got me stumped... :)
Edited cause fellow members were making fun of my Literature skills... :D
| Fred | 12-28-2004 05:56 PM |
Dude, it's Impreza!!11!!111! - one "z" - if you're going to try to get funding for a race team at least know how to "speel" the car you're hoping to race.
:lol:
:lol:
| buzz313th | 12-28-2004 05:57 PM |
[QUOTE=Fred]Dude, it's Impreza!!11!!111! - one "z" - if you're going to try to get funding for a race team at least know how to "speel" the car you're hoping to race.
:lol:[/QUOTE]
LOL... Ok fine Impreza...
I'm not gonna race it either, I'm just trying to help get one on TV on sundays. :banana:
:lol:[/QUOTE]
LOL... Ok fine Impreza...
I'm not gonna race it either, I'm just trying to help get one on TV on sundays. :banana:
| PKer | 12-28-2004 06:23 PM |
JGTC! (I voted WCTC)
| dowroa | 12-28-2004 06:40 PM |
[QUOTE=GarySheehan]Just checking in. Here are a couple of things I've been thinking about that might influence you as well.
#1 Do not limit this to a WRX discussion. Let's have the scope be "Subaru" in racing, not WRX. There are other options
#2 SCCA themselves have stated that FI cars will not be competitive the first year in order to protect the investments of the teams that are currently competing. Also consider that World Challenge damned near killed itself the last time they allowed FI cars and just about every manufacturer that didn't offer or want to race turbos pulled out. While FI cars may eventually become competitive, they will not be the package of choice. SCCA won't make the same mistake again.
#3 Grand-Am as a whole is making huge strides in getting publicity for their events. Being owned by the France family and it's marketing machine will work wonders for this series. Grand-Am Cup does not have too many classes. It has 2. Grand Sport and Street Touring. Just like World Challenge. The only difference is they run together on the track and for longer time. This series is growing fast, has better control of costs and ultimately has a better chance at more publicity.
#4 A particular Subaru product I am thinking about absolutely will be competetive in Grand-Am Cup GS, for less money than a World Challenge Touring Car WRX that won't be competitive. Read the rules.
#5 I REALLY love watching World-Challenge. It's a great series. I would be focusing all of my effort on that series if I thought the WRX was the package to have.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url][/QUOTE]
While I agree that Grand Am Series racing (from my admittedly limited and spectator knowledge) will be more competitive for a [b]FI Impreza[/b] right off the bat, it is my belief that right now World Challenge has a better 'exposure' status than Grand Am.
In Grand Am, you already have exstablished brands, and TOO many cars on track, from a spectating point of view. They change what groups race together, based on location, and it can be confusing for the individual watching.
In WC, I understand from a competitors POV that Subaru FI cars wont be competitive, but it is a format and has cars that I, the viewer, want to see. It is VERy unique in the types of cars that it offers, and I think that appeals more to the viewing audience. Furthermore, I see it as a better 'publicized' series.
Grand Am for 'next' season, but the future, to me, is World Challenge.
That is my point of view, and I apologize if it offends anyone. I am just saying what I believe and like to watch and see.
- dow
#1 Do not limit this to a WRX discussion. Let's have the scope be "Subaru" in racing, not WRX. There are other options
#2 SCCA themselves have stated that FI cars will not be competitive the first year in order to protect the investments of the teams that are currently competing. Also consider that World Challenge damned near killed itself the last time they allowed FI cars and just about every manufacturer that didn't offer or want to race turbos pulled out. While FI cars may eventually become competitive, they will not be the package of choice. SCCA won't make the same mistake again.
#3 Grand-Am as a whole is making huge strides in getting publicity for their events. Being owned by the France family and it's marketing machine will work wonders for this series. Grand-Am Cup does not have too many classes. It has 2. Grand Sport and Street Touring. Just like World Challenge. The only difference is they run together on the track and for longer time. This series is growing fast, has better control of costs and ultimately has a better chance at more publicity.
#4 A particular Subaru product I am thinking about absolutely will be competetive in Grand-Am Cup GS, for less money than a World Challenge Touring Car WRX that won't be competitive. Read the rules.
#5 I REALLY love watching World-Challenge. It's a great series. I would be focusing all of my effort on that series if I thought the WRX was the package to have.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url][/QUOTE]
While I agree that Grand Am Series racing (from my admittedly limited and spectator knowledge) will be more competitive for a [b]FI Impreza[/b] right off the bat, it is my belief that right now World Challenge has a better 'exposure' status than Grand Am.
In Grand Am, you already have exstablished brands, and TOO many cars on track, from a spectating point of view. They change what groups race together, based on location, and it can be confusing for the individual watching.
In WC, I understand from a competitors POV that Subaru FI cars wont be competitive, but it is a format and has cars that I, the viewer, want to see. It is VERy unique in the types of cars that it offers, and I think that appeals more to the viewing audience. Furthermore, I see it as a better 'publicized' series.
Grand Am for 'next' season, but the future, to me, is World Challenge.
That is my point of view, and I apologize if it offends anyone. I am just saying what I believe and like to watch and see.
- dow
| AlpineFD | 12-28-2004 06:42 PM |
[QUOTE=buzz313th]An Impreza is an Impreza, whether we call it a WRX or A STI... as a matter of fact the STI is a WRX... So for sake of Generality lets say Impreza (RS, WRX, STI) It makes no difference to me.... Now if U'r thinkin about some other model in the subaru line... U have got me stumped... :)
Edited cause fellow members were making fun of my Literature skills... :D[/QUOTE]
Maybe he is thinking of the Legacy, 6cylinder + awd = ass kicking :)
Edited cause fellow members were making fun of my Literature skills... :D[/QUOTE]
Maybe he is thinking of the Legacy, 6cylinder + awd = ass kicking :)
| buzz313th | 12-28-2004 06:43 PM |
Maybe he is... It might very well be a smart move.
| GarySheehan | 12-28-2004 06:46 PM |
[QUOTE=dowroa]In Grand Am, you already have exstablished brands, and TOO many cars on track, from a spectating point of view. They change what groups race together, based on location, and it can be confusing for the individual watching. [/QUOTE]
I don't get your established brands comment regarding Grand Am Cup. Cadillac and Nissan were new this year. They did really well.
Also, they never change what race groups run together. Grand Am Rolex cars never run with Grand Am Cup cars. In almost all races the two Grand Am Cup classes run together. I think there is only one race in 2005 where GS and ST run seperate. It's a consistent series.
Your opinions are not offensive. :)
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
I don't get your established brands comment regarding Grand Am Cup. Cadillac and Nissan were new this year. They did really well.
Also, they never change what race groups run together. Grand Am Rolex cars never run with Grand Am Cup cars. In almost all races the two Grand Am Cup classes run together. I think there is only one race in 2005 where GS and ST run seperate. It's a consistent series.
Your opinions are not offensive. :)
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| GarySheehan | 12-28-2004 06:47 PM |
[QUOTE=AlpineFD]Maybe he is thinking of the Legacy, 6cylinder + awd = ass kicking :)[/QUOTE]
I DID say don't limit your thinking to a WRX, didn't I? ;)
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
I DID say don't limit your thinking to a WRX, didn't I? ;)
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| dowroa | 12-28-2004 08:03 PM |
[QUOTE=GarySheehan]I don't get your established brands comment regarding Grand Am Cup. Cadillac and Nissan were new this year. They did really well.
Also, they never change what race groups run together. Grand Am Rolex cars never run with Grand Am Cup cars. In almost all races the two Grand Am Cup classes run together. I think there is only one race in 2005 where GS and ST run seperate. It's a consistent series.
Your opinions are not offensive. :)
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url][/QUOTE]
Ah... I understand where I erred.
My problem, as a viewer, is that I have a problem of mentally scrabling the Rolex Sport Car Series with the Grand Am Cup series. I see Corvettes, and Porsches racing, and that just 'blends' them in my mind. I have a hard time distingusihing from the coverage.
However, with the Speed Challenge Series, I always know what I am watching.
I apologize for my error.
However, after going back to DVR quickly and watching a Grand Am series -- yes, they do have a wide variety of cars. My personal opinion still stands that Grand Am is the series to compete in, but once FI cars in WC become competitive, I would be more interested in running there.
Just my opinion, of course. I think a few of us have aspiration of running WC... by 2010 when Subarus and FI will finall ybe on a level playing field :)
- dow
Also, they never change what race groups run together. Grand Am Rolex cars never run with Grand Am Cup cars. In almost all races the two Grand Am Cup classes run together. I think there is only one race in 2005 where GS and ST run seperate. It's a consistent series.
Your opinions are not offensive. :)
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url][/QUOTE]
Ah... I understand where I erred.
My problem, as a viewer, is that I have a problem of mentally scrabling the Rolex Sport Car Series with the Grand Am Cup series. I see Corvettes, and Porsches racing, and that just 'blends' them in my mind. I have a hard time distingusihing from the coverage.
However, with the Speed Challenge Series, I always know what I am watching.
I apologize for my error.
However, after going back to DVR quickly and watching a Grand Am series -- yes, they do have a wide variety of cars. My personal opinion still stands that Grand Am is the series to compete in, but once FI cars in WC become competitive, I would be more interested in running there.
Just my opinion, of course. I think a few of us have aspiration of running WC... by 2010 when Subarus and FI will finall ybe on a level playing field :)
- dow
| patr | 12-28-2004 08:18 PM |
you should really add wrc in there too, while we are at it, I'll volounteer to drive. Its the only way were ever gonna get a north american in the wrwc with a proper car, with independent funding
Add WRC to the poll !
-Pat
Add WRC to the poll !
-Pat
| buzz313th | 12-28-2004 08:24 PM |
[QUOTE=patr]you should really add wrc in there too, while we are at it, I'll volounteer to drive. Its the only way were ever gonna get a north american in the wrwc with a proper car, with independent funding
Add WRC to the poll !
-Pat[/QUOTE]
Please.... lets stay on topic here... unfortunately I cannot change the poll.
I would be more than happy to help with your request... but not until the current tasks are done...
Thank U though..
Jeff B
Add WRC to the poll !
-Pat[/QUOTE]
Please.... lets stay on topic here... unfortunately I cannot change the poll.
I would be more than happy to help with your request... but not until the current tasks are done...
Thank U though..
Jeff B
| Killian Maynard | 12-28-2004 08:24 PM |
I'm more interested in seeing a WCTC sponsored car over a Grand AM. There are already Nissan Altimas and 350Z's as well as Mazda 6's which subaru should be competing with.
| [email�protected] | 12-28-2004 08:27 PM |
I think that both series are a great way for spectators to see the different ways cars are made for the particular classes and series. I personally like wc better because the action is packed into a 50 min. sprint, and it seems to be more interesting on a race to race basis. Now we are currently building 2 cars for wctc and will be debuting one of the cars in Sebring. We know that they will not be competitive for the first 5 races, but after that FI cars will be allowed to change/ upgrade accordingly. Gary is right about the SCCA wc problems in the past with the FI cars. But i do not think it will get out of control the way it did before.
We have been testing to see what works and what does not and have found a pretty good medium that can be competitive when the restrictions are lifted somewhat.
I say watch for FI cars about 7-8 races into the year to start impressing people and make for a fun and competitive year.
Irish Mikes Racing
[url="http://www.irishmikes.com/"]www.irishmikes.com[/url]
We have been testing to see what works and what does not and have found a pretty good medium that can be competitive when the restrictions are lifted somewhat.
I say watch for FI cars about 7-8 races into the year to start impressing people and make for a fun and competitive year.
Irish Mikes Racing
[url="http://www.irishmikes.com/"]www.irishmikes.com[/url]
| M | 12-28-2004 09:34 PM |
WC tends to have a lot more damage to the cars. Different style of racing. Something to consider in picking a series.
| kwak | 12-29-2004 12:39 AM |
[QUOTE]Has the SCCA officially released word on the WRX being able to run in WC?[/QUOTE]2005 rules have the cars classed but not homologated: WRX/STI and Legacy GT in the GT class, and WRX in the TC class.
[QUOTE]has anyone sonsidered the national championships at mid ohio, thats only one race and it amkes a big statemnt when winning.[/QUOTE]It's also a couple of qualifying races, and LOTS of development. Gary's USTCC car is modified WAY past T2 prep levels. The exposure? One televised race delayed until December.
The only Subary in the 2005 Grand Am rules right now is the 2004 Subaru WRX.
[QUOTE]has anyone sonsidered the national championships at mid ohio, thats only one race and it amkes a big statemnt when winning.[/QUOTE]It's also a couple of qualifying races, and LOTS of development. Gary's USTCC car is modified WAY past T2 prep levels. The exposure? One televised race delayed until December.
The only Subary in the 2005 Grand Am rules right now is the 2004 Subaru WRX.
| patr | 12-29-2004 01:45 AM |
600k is easy a whole season in PWRC plus dedicated speed broadcasts of JUST the PWRC. That would be in a top spec car and a top flight deal for members (i.e. win a trip for 2 to sweden/germany/rallyofchoice each time). We did it before for a third of that.
mr 313, your PM response is lacking. Creating options and having open discussion on the discussion forum is a fair excersize. saying its 'off topic' and isn't entirely true. its been discussed before on nasioc ... When we did the cross-marketing deal with nasioc.com at the beginning this was one of the topics.
I think it would be great to have a Subaru in American roadracing, but why not also think about having a North American driving an nasioc Subaru in the PWRC ?
mr 313, your PM response is lacking. Creating options and having open discussion on the discussion forum is a fair excersize. saying its 'off topic' and isn't entirely true. its been discussed before on nasioc ... When we did the cross-marketing deal with nasioc.com at the beginning this was one of the topics.
I think it would be great to have a Subaru in American roadracing, but why not also think about having a North American driving an nasioc Subaru in the PWRC ?
| buzz313th | 12-29-2004 01:58 AM |
[QUOTE=patr]600k is easy a whole season in PWRC plus dedicated speed broadcasts of JUST the PWRC. That would be in a top spec car and a top flight deal for members (i.e. win a trip for 2 to sweden/germany/rallyofchoice each time). We did it before for a third of that.
mr 313, your PM response is lacking. Creating options and having open discussion on the discussion forum is a fair excersize. saying its 'off topic' and isn't entirely true. its been discussed before on nasioc ... When we did the cross-marketing deal with nasioc.com at the beginning this was one of the topics.
I think it would be great to have a Subaru in American roadracing, but why not also think about having a North American driving an nasioc Subaru in the PWRC ?[/QUOTE]
I think it's a great idea. But do you think it should be in the same thread? When you initially contacted me, you wanted me to change the poll to reflect a Rally effort. That to me seems off topic. This is not my Forum. You are free to make a thread just like the one I have created. I was confused why you approached me in the first place. I am also a rally fan. But i would like to see a suby in Roadracing first, considering there are tons of subies in rally.
mr 313, your PM response is lacking. Creating options and having open discussion on the discussion forum is a fair excersize. saying its 'off topic' and isn't entirely true. its been discussed before on nasioc ... When we did the cross-marketing deal with nasioc.com at the beginning this was one of the topics.
I think it would be great to have a Subaru in American roadracing, but why not also think about having a North American driving an nasioc Subaru in the PWRC ?[/QUOTE]
I think it's a great idea. But do you think it should be in the same thread? When you initially contacted me, you wanted me to change the poll to reflect a Rally effort. That to me seems off topic. This is not my Forum. You are free to make a thread just like the one I have created. I was confused why you approached me in the first place. I am also a rally fan. But i would like to see a suby in Roadracing first, considering there are tons of subies in rally.
| STiTuner | 12-29-2004 02:00 AM |
My vote is going on the Irish
[IMG]http://www.wrxturbo.com/Images/IMR/IMR.jpg[/IMG]
Good luck in the up coming WCTC season
Brad
[url]www.titanmotorsports.com[/url]
[IMG]http://www.wrxturbo.com/Images/IMR/IMR.jpg[/IMG]
Good luck in the up coming WCTC season
Brad
[url]www.titanmotorsports.com[/url]
| buzz313th | 12-29-2004 02:02 AM |
[QUOTE=STiTuner]My vote is going on the Irish
[IMG]http://www.wrxturbo.com/Images/IMR/IMR.jpg[/IMG]
Good luck in the up coming WCTC season
Brad
[url]www.titanmotorsports.com[/url][/QUOTE]
Nice car.. :)
[IMG]http://www.wrxturbo.com/Images/IMR/IMR.jpg[/IMG]
Good luck in the up coming WCTC season
Brad
[url]www.titanmotorsports.com[/url][/QUOTE]
Nice car.. :)
| patr | 12-29-2004 02:02 AM |
I only PM'd you because you told me to PM you (in one your many other threads) !
but, actually, what I said actually was right here in this post, to add a rally option to the poll
but, actually, what I said actually was right here in this post, to add a rally option to the poll
| buzz313th | 12-29-2004 02:05 AM |
[QUOTE=patr]no, actually, what I said actually was right here in this post, to add a rally option to the poll[/QUOTE]
Ok I see what your saying... U want me to put a rally option in the poll for this thread.... ahhhh... The reason I was confused is because I didn't start this poll... someone else did ...I started the poll in the other thread..
So like I said earlier... I cant change this poll.... U need to talk to the thread starter of this current thread... It was not me..
Ok I see what your saying... U want me to put a rally option in the poll for this thread.... ahhhh... The reason I was confused is because I didn't start this poll... someone else did ...I started the poll in the other thread..
So like I said earlier... I cant change this poll.... U need to talk to the thread starter of this current thread... It was not me..
| patr | 12-29-2004 02:05 AM |
its cool it was kind of a joke anyways
| buzz313th | 12-29-2004 02:08 AM |
[QUOTE=patr]its cool it was kind of a joke anyways[/QUOTE]
Good deal.
Listen I would love to see an American in the WRC...
Good deal.
Listen I would love to see an American in the WRC...
| AlpineFD | 12-29-2004 04:51 AM |
[QUOTE=STiTuner]My vote is going on the Irish
[IMG]http://www.wrxturbo.com/Images/IMR/IMR.jpg[/IMG]
Good luck in the up coming WCTC season
Brad
[url]www.titanmotorsports.com[/url][/QUOTE]
Just out of curiosity, what kind of suspension setup are you running?
[IMG]http://www.wrxturbo.com/Images/IMR/IMR.jpg[/IMG]
Good luck in the up coming WCTC season
Brad
[url]www.titanmotorsports.com[/url][/QUOTE]
Just out of curiosity, what kind of suspension setup are you running?
| mw1029h | 12-29-2004 02:23 PM |
I'm not 100% sure but wouldn't the Subaru be more competitive in grand AM. I like the World Challenge more but the cars seem faster and drivers better. I could be wrong I would have to see time slips to confirm. It also seems that new cars and drivers don't do well in the WC. I do believe that someone with real race team experience should make the decision on what series to drive I mean race. :D
| Joel Gat, 1.8L | 12-29-2004 03:04 PM |
Hello,
I posted this on another forum, when someone asked the same question. So let me share some of my thoughts on why Grand Am might be a better place to put a Subaru...
I know I said some of this in this and the other threads, but putting it all together in one pseudo-continuous thought has some merit.
---
Then, as for why Grand Am, there are many reasons why that is a better series to race a Subaru in, not the least of which is that the Subaru has a chance of winning!
In World Challenge, a WRX would run with BMWs and Hondas. BMW and Honda have made World Challenge what it is, today. Their tireless sponsorship efforts legitimized the touring car class. SCCA/Speed are not about to tell BMW and Honda to go screw themselves since they have no turbo cars. The Neon and WRX don't yet have big factory backing. While it's true that racing should evolve to reflect the marketplace, you don't turn your back on the factory efforts to encourage a couple privateers here and there! Forced Induction cars will be competitive in WCTC, but not for the first couple years.
Meanwhile, Grand Am is going in one direction. The chair of NASCAR, Bill France, now also controls Grand Am. In the last 10 years, NASCAR has gone from a thing for hicks in the south to watch (sorry, no offense intended to you NASCAR fans, or you hicks from the south!), to the Number 1 American professional sport in terms of fan brand loyalty, Number 2 in terms of television viewership, and Number 3 in terms of licensed products sales.
That's huge.
Why would Bill France want a piece of road racing? Road racing makes up approximately 7% of the US motorsports market. It's a little nothing market right now. Care to take a bet on whether the France Empire is looking for a little bit of racing charity work? I'll take good odds that the France Empire is planning on expanding this small-time market (road racing) into the next big cash cow (albeit, I doubt it will ever surpass NASCAR).
The "France formula" seems to work, so far. Baseball? What's that? More Americans tune in to watch _cars_ racing on tracks. Who cares whether you like NASCAR's format? Just think, every time you hear someone talking about baseball at work, more people are talking about NASCAR than about "America's favorite pastime."
Now imagine what will happen when the Frances apply their formula to road racing. Where do you want to be as that is happening? Grand Am is currently the fastest growing road racing series... Do you think being a part of Grand Am could be a good thing for a brand looking for exposure (NASCAR is #1 in brand loyalty...)?
Grand Am will get coverage of all 10 races this coming year, about the same as World Challenge (11 races).
Not insignificantly, the rules of modifications for Grand Am are also more stringent. The cars are closer to street going cars, with limits on suspension pick up points (GA is stock, WC not necessarily), and other such rules. This not only keeps costs down, but gives fans and manufacturers better feedback about the workings of parts. Add in the better opportunity to be a front running team in Grand Am, and although nothing is set in stone, both Gary and I feel that Grand Am is where Subaru can shine and become a real name in American motorsports.
Joel Gat
Crew Chief
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]http://www.teamsmr.com[/url]
I posted this on another forum, when someone asked the same question. So let me share some of my thoughts on why Grand Am might be a better place to put a Subaru...
I know I said some of this in this and the other threads, but putting it all together in one pseudo-continuous thought has some merit.
---
Then, as for why Grand Am, there are many reasons why that is a better series to race a Subaru in, not the least of which is that the Subaru has a chance of winning!
In World Challenge, a WRX would run with BMWs and Hondas. BMW and Honda have made World Challenge what it is, today. Their tireless sponsorship efforts legitimized the touring car class. SCCA/Speed are not about to tell BMW and Honda to go screw themselves since they have no turbo cars. The Neon and WRX don't yet have big factory backing. While it's true that racing should evolve to reflect the marketplace, you don't turn your back on the factory efforts to encourage a couple privateers here and there! Forced Induction cars will be competitive in WCTC, but not for the first couple years.
Meanwhile, Grand Am is going in one direction. The chair of NASCAR, Bill France, now also controls Grand Am. In the last 10 years, NASCAR has gone from a thing for hicks in the south to watch (sorry, no offense intended to you NASCAR fans, or you hicks from the south!), to the Number 1 American professional sport in terms of fan brand loyalty, Number 2 in terms of television viewership, and Number 3 in terms of licensed products sales.
That's huge.
Why would Bill France want a piece of road racing? Road racing makes up approximately 7% of the US motorsports market. It's a little nothing market right now. Care to take a bet on whether the France Empire is looking for a little bit of racing charity work? I'll take good odds that the France Empire is planning on expanding this small-time market (road racing) into the next big cash cow (albeit, I doubt it will ever surpass NASCAR).
The "France formula" seems to work, so far. Baseball? What's that? More Americans tune in to watch _cars_ racing on tracks. Who cares whether you like NASCAR's format? Just think, every time you hear someone talking about baseball at work, more people are talking about NASCAR than about "America's favorite pastime."
Now imagine what will happen when the Frances apply their formula to road racing. Where do you want to be as that is happening? Grand Am is currently the fastest growing road racing series... Do you think being a part of Grand Am could be a good thing for a brand looking for exposure (NASCAR is #1 in brand loyalty...)?
Grand Am will get coverage of all 10 races this coming year, about the same as World Challenge (11 races).
Not insignificantly, the rules of modifications for Grand Am are also more stringent. The cars are closer to street going cars, with limits on suspension pick up points (GA is stock, WC not necessarily), and other such rules. This not only keeps costs down, but gives fans and manufacturers better feedback about the workings of parts. Add in the better opportunity to be a front running team in Grand Am, and although nothing is set in stone, both Gary and I feel that Grand Am is where Subaru can shine and become a real name in American motorsports.
Joel Gat
Crew Chief
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]http://www.teamsmr.com[/url]
| parker/slc/gc8fan | 12-29-2004 03:55 PM |
no offense joel, but i dont see as much generosity on the france family as you do.
i would assume him stepping in to give grand am a jump start would be only with his emidiate benefit. bill would have to make alterrations to 70% of his race tracks if he wants road racing on them. i doubt he would be fine with one of his series racing on courses he dosnt own.
i think you give him too much credit for what happened to nascar in the last decade.
i would assume him stepping in to give grand am a jump start would be only with his emidiate benefit. bill would have to make alterrations to 70% of his race tracks if he wants road racing on them. i doubt he would be fine with one of his series racing on courses he dosnt own.
i think you give him too much credit for what happened to nascar in the last decade.
| Joel Gat, 1.8L | 12-29-2004 04:11 PM |
Hello,
[QUOTE=parker/slc/gc8fan]no offense joel, but i dont see as much generosity on the france family as you do.[/quote]
Parker, what generosity?
[Quote=Joel Gat, 1.8L]Care to take a bet on whether the France Empire is looking for a little bit of racing charity work?[/quote]
I have no doubt that Bill France isn't into Grand Am for the benefit of road racing fans. The only reason to expand into road racing is to pocket more cash. The way to do that is to bring racing to the fans, establish personalities that fans can rally behind, continue developing the series to improve its professionalism, etc.
Seriously, can you name the teams behind the big drivers in NASCAR? How many people do you think know the name "Jeff Gordon," versus how many know "Rick Hendrick" or "Hendrick Motorsports"?
Why is it this way? Because fans don't care about Hendrick Motorsports. They care about Jeff Gordon. And, according to NASCAR (though I don't really understand HOW it's related), the fans are buying the Chevy Monte Carlo because THAT is what Gordon drives. "Hey Hon, look, I'm driving Gordon's car!"
This process will turn Grand Am into something everyone can watch. Right now, World Challenge and Grand Am are really watched by "car guys" more than the general public.
[QUOTE=parker/slc/gc8fan]i would assume him stepping in to give grand am a jump start would be only with his emidiate benefit.[/quote]
Exactly. Money in his pocket. Why would he waste money acquiring interest in Grand Am if he didn't plan on making money off it?
[QUOTE=parker/slc/gc8fan] bill would have to make alterrations to 70% of his race tracks if he wants road racing on them.[/quote]
Heh... or buy more tracks :)
[QUOTE=parker/slc/gc8fan]i doubt he would be fine with one of his series racing on courses he dosnt own.[/quote]
Grand Am is currently racing in 3 countries right now, and the Frances already own their interest in Grand Am. Last year saw great growth for the series...
[QUOTE=parker/slc/gc8fan]i think you give him too much credit for what happened to nascar in the last decade.[/QUOTE]
Who gets that credit?
Joel
[QUOTE=parker/slc/gc8fan]no offense joel, but i dont see as much generosity on the france family as you do.[/quote]
Parker, what generosity?
[Quote=Joel Gat, 1.8L]Care to take a bet on whether the France Empire is looking for a little bit of racing charity work?[/quote]
I have no doubt that Bill France isn't into Grand Am for the benefit of road racing fans. The only reason to expand into road racing is to pocket more cash. The way to do that is to bring racing to the fans, establish personalities that fans can rally behind, continue developing the series to improve its professionalism, etc.
Seriously, can you name the teams behind the big drivers in NASCAR? How many people do you think know the name "Jeff Gordon," versus how many know "Rick Hendrick" or "Hendrick Motorsports"?
Why is it this way? Because fans don't care about Hendrick Motorsports. They care about Jeff Gordon. And, according to NASCAR (though I don't really understand HOW it's related), the fans are buying the Chevy Monte Carlo because THAT is what Gordon drives. "Hey Hon, look, I'm driving Gordon's car!"
This process will turn Grand Am into something everyone can watch. Right now, World Challenge and Grand Am are really watched by "car guys" more than the general public.
[QUOTE=parker/slc/gc8fan]i would assume him stepping in to give grand am a jump start would be only with his emidiate benefit.[/quote]
Exactly. Money in his pocket. Why would he waste money acquiring interest in Grand Am if he didn't plan on making money off it?
[QUOTE=parker/slc/gc8fan] bill would have to make alterrations to 70% of his race tracks if he wants road racing on them.[/quote]
Heh... or buy more tracks :)
[QUOTE=parker/slc/gc8fan]i doubt he would be fine with one of his series racing on courses he dosnt own.[/quote]
Grand Am is currently racing in 3 countries right now, and the Frances already own their interest in Grand Am. Last year saw great growth for the series...
[QUOTE=parker/slc/gc8fan]i think you give him too much credit for what happened to nascar in the last decade.[/QUOTE]
Who gets that credit?
Joel
| parker/slc/gc8fan | 12-29-2004 04:58 PM |
some of the credit can be given to champ cars split in the mid 90's. some more credit can be given to it's "monopoly" on television. back before nascar was #1 it was the easiest motorsport to find on tv, when most people would rather not have to buy a special cable service to watch some racing, nascar gave them an easy answer.
i think you have a good point about grand-am being close to as viable a series as nascar. with the money of the france companies it could give the series the booster it needs. i dont think a majority of race fans see the france family as racing fans, this could be a shot in the foot if some of nascars patented nuances show thier face in an un-tainted race series known for good ole'fashion racing.
your point about people wanting to drive jeff gordons car, i dont see it. chevy monte carlo sales are dismal in my area. if manufacturers were smarter about the "nascar" they offered for the street this would be differrent, all nascars are is a shell wiht logo's on it matching those on the ca for sale in showrooms. nothing else between the two cars seems to carry over.
with this family in power who knows where the rules would go. they definetly wouldnt favor a small forum funded one car team. they would favor the big companies. willing to put up big dollars just to get thier cars on tv.
i think one reason most people seem favored towards world challenge is because the average person could take thier showroom stock car there and have a great time.
but a bad argument for the world challenge is the scca's recent dificulties at keeping thier series a-float.
my overall point is. nascar fans may like the france family, but the type of race fans we are do not. who wants only one or two people in this country to be overloards of all racing (tony george, and bill france)? it would be good to have thier money, but at what expense would it come? i believe we would have to make a consesion of sorts in order to bring them along.
i think you have a good point about grand-am being close to as viable a series as nascar. with the money of the france companies it could give the series the booster it needs. i dont think a majority of race fans see the france family as racing fans, this could be a shot in the foot if some of nascars patented nuances show thier face in an un-tainted race series known for good ole'fashion racing.
your point about people wanting to drive jeff gordons car, i dont see it. chevy monte carlo sales are dismal in my area. if manufacturers were smarter about the "nascar" they offered for the street this would be differrent, all nascars are is a shell wiht logo's on it matching those on the ca for sale in showrooms. nothing else between the two cars seems to carry over.
with this family in power who knows where the rules would go. they definetly wouldnt favor a small forum funded one car team. they would favor the big companies. willing to put up big dollars just to get thier cars on tv.
i think one reason most people seem favored towards world challenge is because the average person could take thier showroom stock car there and have a great time.
but a bad argument for the world challenge is the scca's recent dificulties at keeping thier series a-float.
my overall point is. nascar fans may like the france family, but the type of race fans we are do not. who wants only one or two people in this country to be overloards of all racing (tony george, and bill france)? it would be good to have thier money, but at what expense would it come? i believe we would have to make a consesion of sorts in order to bring them along.
| GarySheehan | 12-29-2004 05:05 PM |
[QUOTE=parker/slc/gc8fan]i think one reason most people seem favored towards world challenge is because the average person could take thier showroom stock car there and have a great time.[/QUOTE]
You don't mean race it, right? Because a World Challenge Touring Car is very much not what's on the street. $30K engines, $25K engine management+data acquisition, $9K-$12K shocks/springs, $5K-$10K in brakes, etc., etc. You can't have fun in your showroom stock car with these guys.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
You don't mean race it, right? Because a World Challenge Touring Car is very much not what's on the street. $30K engines, $25K engine management+data acquisition, $9K-$12K shocks/springs, $5K-$10K in brakes, etc., etc. You can't have fun in your showroom stock car with these guys.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| Joel Gat, 1.8L | 12-29-2004 05:27 PM |
Hello,
[QUOTE=parker/slc/gc8fan]some more credit can be given to it's "monopoly" on television. back before nascar was #1 it was the easiest motorsport to find on tv, when most people would rather not have to buy a special cable service to watch some racing, nascar gave them an easy answer.
[/quote]
There are many monopolies on TV that I don't watch. And more importantly, I think there are more NASCAR fans than there are bored car racing fans! People who have never changed the oil on their cars still watch NASCAR. People who couldn't give a 'hoot' whether the speed limit was 55 or 85 mph on the freeway, watch NASCAR. To get the second largest audience in TV sports, NASCAR has had to make people think "I'd rather watch NASCAR than [baseball, basketball, soccer, etc etc etc]"
[QUOTE=parker/slc/gc8fan]i dont think a majority of race fans see the france family as racing fans, this could be a shot in the foot if some of nascars patented nuances show thier face in an un-tainted race series known for good ole'fashion racing.[/quote]
I think you have to assume that to become an Empire, someone has to know a little about business. Speed changed its focus to NASCAR because that's what the audience wanted. Sure, a few folks don't like NASCAR, but most American sports fans do.
Likewise, NASCAR is NASCAR. If the Frances turn Grand Am into NASCAR2, Grand Am will fail and the Frances would have failed at this business venture. NASCAR is the place to showcase NASCAR and Grand Am is the place to showcase production-based racing on road courses. I'm not worried about the Frances failing Business 101.
[QUOTE=parker/slc/gc8fan]your point about people wanting to drive jeff gordons car, i dont see it.[/quote]
I also said I don't see how it translates, but NASCAR is all about people seeing their own cars racing on TV. The �race on Sunday, sell on Monday� mentality is what resulted in the Taurus (300,xxx sold), the Insepid (80,000), and the Grand Prix (125,000). To put that in perspective, Subaru sells 25-50,000 Imprezas annually... And Monte Carlo sales took off a little after the Supercharged version came out, though sales look to be only in the 100,000 range.
[QUOTE=parker/slc/gc8fan]if manufacturers were smarter about the "nascar" they offered for the street this would be differrent, all nascars are is a shell wiht logo's on it matching those on the ca for sale in showrooms. nothing else between the two cars seems to carry over.[/quote]
I 100% agree with you. And that's why I think a series that is based on production cars is going to be the next biggest thing. And I'm guessing that's what the Frances are thinking, too.
[QUOTE=parker/slc/gc8fan]they definetly wouldnt favor a small forum funded one car team. they would favor the big companies. willing to put up big dollars just to get thier cars on tv.[/quote]
Isn't that what you want, though? Don't you want a series where Subaru, Honda, BMW, Mazda, Audi, etc., all have top caliber factory-funded multi-million dollar efforts? That's where Grand Am is headed, hopefully, and why Subaru needs to "get in on that!"
[QUOTE=parker/slc/gc8fan]i think one reason most people seem favored towards world challenge is because the average person could take thier showroom stock car there and have a great time.[/quote]
You lost me there. World Challenge cars are generally more modified / less stock than Grand Am cars. Like I said before, a big point is the suspension points. It's cool that Grand Am cars are running expensive versions of the same shocks and struts that you can run on your car. If you see a Subaru on the track in Grand Am, winning, and you know it's running Motons, JRZs, Ohlins, Penskes, whatever, you know you can buy the exact same shock or at least a lower level version of the same shock, and bolt it to your car, to get a lower level version of the same handling characteristics.
To do the same for a World Challenge car, you'd have to go find out where they moved their strut tops to, get a CAD file on the new control arms they made that move the wheels out and forward or whatever. Not at all "race on Sunday, sell on Monday." World Challenge is far more expensive and less relevant to the end consumer...
That said, of course, I would love to be the Crew Chief of a World Challenge GT team with a 15 million dollar budget and a "sky's the limit" attitude towards design work. I would so love to re-engineer all but the chassis/body/shell itself to get rid of all the concessions to street / daily driving and have a 5-7 car effort (3 on the field, with backups and test mules) with a team of dozens of engineers, etc. I know we were talking World Challenge Touring Car, but the above is what it would take to have a great chance at dominance in WCGT. :)
Anyway, good thoughts Parker. I just disagree with your assessment of the France family, because like you, I think they're in it for the money. However, I think they're also quite business savvy and will do whatever is necessary to grow Grand Am into a cash generation machine for them and for the manufacturers and corporate sponsors involved. Which is exactly what needs to happen. Sponsorships and investments are all about Return on Investment.
Joel
[QUOTE=parker/slc/gc8fan]some more credit can be given to it's "monopoly" on television. back before nascar was #1 it was the easiest motorsport to find on tv, when most people would rather not have to buy a special cable service to watch some racing, nascar gave them an easy answer.
[/quote]
There are many monopolies on TV that I don't watch. And more importantly, I think there are more NASCAR fans than there are bored car racing fans! People who have never changed the oil on their cars still watch NASCAR. People who couldn't give a 'hoot' whether the speed limit was 55 or 85 mph on the freeway, watch NASCAR. To get the second largest audience in TV sports, NASCAR has had to make people think "I'd rather watch NASCAR than [baseball, basketball, soccer, etc etc etc]"
[QUOTE=parker/slc/gc8fan]i dont think a majority of race fans see the france family as racing fans, this could be a shot in the foot if some of nascars patented nuances show thier face in an un-tainted race series known for good ole'fashion racing.[/quote]
I think you have to assume that to become an Empire, someone has to know a little about business. Speed changed its focus to NASCAR because that's what the audience wanted. Sure, a few folks don't like NASCAR, but most American sports fans do.
Likewise, NASCAR is NASCAR. If the Frances turn Grand Am into NASCAR2, Grand Am will fail and the Frances would have failed at this business venture. NASCAR is the place to showcase NASCAR and Grand Am is the place to showcase production-based racing on road courses. I'm not worried about the Frances failing Business 101.
[QUOTE=parker/slc/gc8fan]your point about people wanting to drive jeff gordons car, i dont see it.[/quote]
I also said I don't see how it translates, but NASCAR is all about people seeing their own cars racing on TV. The �race on Sunday, sell on Monday� mentality is what resulted in the Taurus (300,xxx sold), the Insepid (80,000), and the Grand Prix (125,000). To put that in perspective, Subaru sells 25-50,000 Imprezas annually... And Monte Carlo sales took off a little after the Supercharged version came out, though sales look to be only in the 100,000 range.
[QUOTE=parker/slc/gc8fan]if manufacturers were smarter about the "nascar" they offered for the street this would be differrent, all nascars are is a shell wiht logo's on it matching those on the ca for sale in showrooms. nothing else between the two cars seems to carry over.[/quote]
I 100% agree with you. And that's why I think a series that is based on production cars is going to be the next biggest thing. And I'm guessing that's what the Frances are thinking, too.
[QUOTE=parker/slc/gc8fan]they definetly wouldnt favor a small forum funded one car team. they would favor the big companies. willing to put up big dollars just to get thier cars on tv.[/quote]
Isn't that what you want, though? Don't you want a series where Subaru, Honda, BMW, Mazda, Audi, etc., all have top caliber factory-funded multi-million dollar efforts? That's where Grand Am is headed, hopefully, and why Subaru needs to "get in on that!"
[QUOTE=parker/slc/gc8fan]i think one reason most people seem favored towards world challenge is because the average person could take thier showroom stock car there and have a great time.[/quote]
You lost me there. World Challenge cars are generally more modified / less stock than Grand Am cars. Like I said before, a big point is the suspension points. It's cool that Grand Am cars are running expensive versions of the same shocks and struts that you can run on your car. If you see a Subaru on the track in Grand Am, winning, and you know it's running Motons, JRZs, Ohlins, Penskes, whatever, you know you can buy the exact same shock or at least a lower level version of the same shock, and bolt it to your car, to get a lower level version of the same handling characteristics.
To do the same for a World Challenge car, you'd have to go find out where they moved their strut tops to, get a CAD file on the new control arms they made that move the wheels out and forward or whatever. Not at all "race on Sunday, sell on Monday." World Challenge is far more expensive and less relevant to the end consumer...
That said, of course, I would love to be the Crew Chief of a World Challenge GT team with a 15 million dollar budget and a "sky's the limit" attitude towards design work. I would so love to re-engineer all but the chassis/body/shell itself to get rid of all the concessions to street / daily driving and have a 5-7 car effort (3 on the field, with backups and test mules) with a team of dozens of engineers, etc. I know we were talking World Challenge Touring Car, but the above is what it would take to have a great chance at dominance in WCGT. :)
Anyway, good thoughts Parker. I just disagree with your assessment of the France family, because like you, I think they're in it for the money. However, I think they're also quite business savvy and will do whatever is necessary to grow Grand Am into a cash generation machine for them and for the manufacturers and corporate sponsors involved. Which is exactly what needs to happen. Sponsorships and investments are all about Return on Investment.
Joel
| Patrick L | 12-29-2004 05:58 PM |
[QUOTE=STiTuner]My vote is going on the Irish
[IMG]http://www.wrxturbo.com/Images/IMR/IMR.jpg[/IMG]
Good luck in the up coming WCTC season
Brad
[url]www.titanmotorsports.com[/url][/QUOTE]
Brad, where did find this picture. His website hasn't been updated in a long time.
[IMG]http://www.wrxturbo.com/Images/IMR/IMR.jpg[/IMG]
Good luck in the up coming WCTC season
Brad
[url]www.titanmotorsports.com[/url][/QUOTE]
Brad, where did find this picture. His website hasn't been updated in a long time.
| parker/slc/gc8fan | 12-29-2004 06:42 PM |
you have convinced me, well pretty much. the fact that there is a subaru allready slated for world challenge swayed me the most.
but alas, i cant change my vote.
thanks for the good discusion joel. which ever forum it may be. :)
but alas, i cant change my vote.
thanks for the good discusion joel. which ever forum it may be. :)
| Joel Gat, 1.8L | 12-29-2004 07:05 PM |
[QUOTE=parker/slc/gc8fan]thanks for the good discusion joel. which ever forum it may be. :)[/QUOTE]
Hello,
In case y'all are interested, the parallel discussion that Parker and I had can be found [URL=http://www.wrxforum.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=007158;p=2]here.[/url]
Joel
Hello,
In case y'all are interested, the parallel discussion that Parker and I had can be found [URL=http://www.wrxforum.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=007158;p=2]here.[/url]
Joel
| [email�protected] | 12-29-2004 07:43 PM |
the pics turned out sweet, Brad, he took them himself, by the way. I think its good that wc decided to go with FI cars because it creates a bigger playing field for when the cars are up to speed. Instead of having 3 main manufactures present you will have 5 or 6. Factory backed or not. With the occasional independent every now and then.
That is the one thing i can say that the Grand am has on WC, is the amount of manufactures present on a race to race basis. Although the WCGT class is pretty well diverse. The WCTC has been lacking a little. But its going to be real interesting when everything is up to speed.
That is the one thing i can say that the Grand am has on WC, is the amount of manufactures present on a race to race basis. Although the WCGT class is pretty well diverse. The WCTC has been lacking a little. But its going to be real interesting when everything is up to speed.
| STiTuner | 12-29-2004 09:01 PM |
[QUOTE=Top_Dog]Brad, where did find this picture. His website hasn't been updated in a long time.[/QUOTE]
yes I know, his site is a little far behind. I have been following his progress very closely over the past couple seasons though. Hopefulyl this coming season I will be able to help keep some of you guys up to date.
The site doesn't show much, so I wouldn't know where to start with all of the changes they've made to become a competitor in their class. For them going to FI from NA will be huge advantage in the long run.
This year will be a very interesting season for them! They know that SCCA has put enough restrictions to keep them from being at the head of the pack right away, but they fully plan to make the best of a situation. They are at a point where they can make a HUGE impact on WCTC as we currently know it.
This is the season where a team has to come out and not only fight against the top cars in the pack, but has to get down and dirty with the sanctioning body and press for approval. Based on the other cars in the class I feel the WRX will stand a good chance of making it up to the top ranks once they start lifting restrictions. The class needs a lot of participation and a lot of support, from both drivers, team owners, and fans. ultimatly this will bring more manufactures to the table, which means; more cars, more competition, more FANS... and more money for teams and sponsors. Its a win/win situation.
I am not an employee or a member of his team but I have seen the amount of hard work they are putting into making this a good initial season. I will be supporting his team from the sidelines.
Brad
[url]www.titanmotorsports.com[/url]
yes I know, his site is a little far behind. I have been following his progress very closely over the past couple seasons though. Hopefulyl this coming season I will be able to help keep some of you guys up to date.
The site doesn't show much, so I wouldn't know where to start with all of the changes they've made to become a competitor in their class. For them going to FI from NA will be huge advantage in the long run.
This year will be a very interesting season for them! They know that SCCA has put enough restrictions to keep them from being at the head of the pack right away, but they fully plan to make the best of a situation. They are at a point where they can make a HUGE impact on WCTC as we currently know it.
This is the season where a team has to come out and not only fight against the top cars in the pack, but has to get down and dirty with the sanctioning body and press for approval. Based on the other cars in the class I feel the WRX will stand a good chance of making it up to the top ranks once they start lifting restrictions. The class needs a lot of participation and a lot of support, from both drivers, team owners, and fans. ultimatly this will bring more manufactures to the table, which means; more cars, more competition, more FANS... and more money for teams and sponsors. Its a win/win situation.
I am not an employee or a member of his team but I have seen the amount of hard work they are putting into making this a good initial season. I will be supporting his team from the sidelines.
Brad
[url]www.titanmotorsports.com[/url]
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