| gills | 02-11-2005 12:54 AM |
Harness bar, 5 pt harnesses...No cage...
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Hey all,
I'm on the verge of buying a harness bar with some harnesses for my STi for some track days. I would like to be strapped in better and be safer while enjoying my time at the track. I don't want to put a roll cage in my car because this is my daily driver.
While doing some searching i've noticed a few posts regarding safety issues with a 5 pt harness and no roll cage. Stating that in the event of a roll over, if the roof caves in enough and you're strapped in with a 5pt harness you're in for some trouble because you can't tuck in your body to avoid the caving in roof. While this seems unnerving to me, at the same time i ask myself "If i'm in the process of rolling over, am i really going to think about tucking into my body to avoid the roof? Do i have enough time to think about that in the event of a roll over?" Accidents happen so quickly. Your body will be tossed around like a rag doll from the g forces with the standard 3 pt that i wonder how that could possibly be any safer than wearing a 5 pt in the same situation. Shouldn't i be more concerned that i'll be much safer in regular impacts with the 5pt that'll keep my body from submarining and moving to a minimum?
I don't know if i'm missing something here or what, but as i see it now, there's no way in my mind that a 3 pt can be any safer at any point, any time on the race track. Unless if the roof is completely flattened, then i can see where the extra movement in the 3 pt might be of a benefit. All other times, i'm thinking 5 pt. Please feel free to chime in all motorsport gurii.
Thanks,
Tom
I'm on the verge of buying a harness bar with some harnesses for my STi for some track days. I would like to be strapped in better and be safer while enjoying my time at the track. I don't want to put a roll cage in my car because this is my daily driver.
While doing some searching i've noticed a few posts regarding safety issues with a 5 pt harness and no roll cage. Stating that in the event of a roll over, if the roof caves in enough and you're strapped in with a 5pt harness you're in for some trouble because you can't tuck in your body to avoid the caving in roof. While this seems unnerving to me, at the same time i ask myself "If i'm in the process of rolling over, am i really going to think about tucking into my body to avoid the roof? Do i have enough time to think about that in the event of a roll over?" Accidents happen so quickly. Your body will be tossed around like a rag doll from the g forces with the standard 3 pt that i wonder how that could possibly be any safer than wearing a 5 pt in the same situation. Shouldn't i be more concerned that i'll be much safer in regular impacts with the 5pt that'll keep my body from submarining and moving to a minimum?
I don't know if i'm missing something here or what, but as i see it now, there's no way in my mind that a 3 pt can be any safer at any point, any time on the race track. Unless if the roof is completely flattened, then i can see where the extra movement in the 3 pt might be of a benefit. All other times, i'm thinking 5 pt. Please feel free to chime in all motorsport gurii.
Thanks,
Tom
| seattle944t | 02-11-2005 01:58 AM |
The point isn't that you think about moving out of the way with a 3 point harness - its that your head/torso will be pushed out of the side by the roof getting crushed. With a 3 point your body can move that direction. With a 5 point you go nowhere - squish.
Think of it this way - you skid sideways and roll on the drivers side and the roof is getting crushed - what direction are the forces of the crushing roof acting on you? Thats right, pushing you to the passenger side - the exit of the 3 point harness.
Think of it this way - you skid sideways and roll on the drivers side and the roof is getting crushed - what direction are the forces of the crushing roof acting on you? Thats right, pushing you to the passenger side - the exit of the 3 point harness.
| jmolaver | 02-11-2005 02:08 AM |
Tom - interesting post - I'm not guru, but I'll try and help... I'm having a custom harness bar and a 5 or 6 point harness put in my STi shortly (by Piper Motorsport), so I'm going through the same thing.
As far as I understand it, it isn't so much if you have time to react and tuck, it's that in a roll with a harness you physically [b]can't[/b] tuck. Whereas in a normal 3 point seatbelt you would just get pushed down into the tuck.
It's a scary situation, as it looks like it would be fairly easy to suffer a spinal / neck injury in that type of accident with a harness. Unfortunately after my last DE my right knee was black and blue from bracing against the center console and I just don't feel secured into my driving position enough with just a seatbelt.
IMHO better to die on the track in a roll then get killed by a soccer mom in her excursion on my way somewhere else ;)
As far as I understand it, it isn't so much if you have time to react and tuck, it's that in a roll with a harness you physically [b]can't[/b] tuck. Whereas in a normal 3 point seatbelt you would just get pushed down into the tuck.
It's a scary situation, as it looks like it would be fairly easy to suffer a spinal / neck injury in that type of accident with a harness. Unfortunately after my last DE my right knee was black and blue from bracing against the center console and I just don't feel secured into my driving position enough with just a seatbelt.
IMHO better to die on the track in a roll then get killed by a soccer mom in her excursion on my way somewhere else ;)
| Kwyjibo | 02-11-2005 04:23 AM |
I've been considering this as well lately as I start to buy my "Saftey" gear (helmet, harness, ect)....
But i've been wondering why someone doesn't just make a harness bar with an extra hoop that goes towards the roof of the vehicle to protect in a roll over?? It may not be as good as a full out cage, but a bar that parallels the b-pillar and croses thr roof could be helpful, no??
But i've been wondering why someone doesn't just make a harness bar with an extra hoop that goes towards the roof of the vehicle to protect in a roll over?? It may not be as good as a full out cage, but a bar that parallels the b-pillar and croses thr roof could be helpful, no??
| GQ | 02-11-2005 08:09 AM |
Also realize that at many track days you will have to have an instructor in the car with you. Some instructors will not ride in a car with harnesses and no roll over protection.
| StealthWRX | 02-11-2005 08:11 AM |
[QUOTE=Kwyjibo]I've been considering this as well lately as I start to buy my "Saftey" gear (helmet, harness, ect)....
But i've been wondering why someone doesn't just make a harness bar with an extra hoop that goes towards the roof of the vehicle to protect in a roll over?? It may not be as good as a full out cage, but a bar that parallels the b-pillar and croses thr roof could be helpful, no??[/QUOTE]
I beleive autopower makes one of these.....call them and ask.
But i've been wondering why someone doesn't just make a harness bar with an extra hoop that goes towards the roof of the vehicle to protect in a roll over?? It may not be as good as a full out cage, but a bar that parallels the b-pillar and croses thr roof could be helpful, no??[/QUOTE]
I beleive autopower makes one of these.....call them and ask.
| Calamity Jesus | 02-11-2005 10:44 AM |
Get a Schroth Rallye 3 and mount the shoulder strap to the C-pillar rear passenger shoulder loop.. it's designed for daily drivers that are used on the track and to keep your from submarining during an accident. If you aren't getting a cage, then all harnesses are doing for you is keeping you in place while driving.. and the Schroth harnesses do a fine job of that.
If you're looking for safety, having a dedicated track car with cage and harness bar is the way to go. I really don't understand buying a harness bar when you have no cage.
If you're looking for safety, having a dedicated track car with cage and harness bar is the way to go. I really don't understand buying a harness bar when you have no cage.
| Safe Drives | 02-11-2005 12:11 PM |
Why buy just a harness bar when you can get the Autopower Street-Sport Roll bar for the same price or less?
[img]http://www.safedrives.com/prodimages/autopower/streetsport_lg.jpg[/img]
[url="http://www.safedrives.com/proddetail.asp?prod=AutopowerBar&cat=72"]Easy DIY bolt in installation and just $375![/url]
Charles
[url="http://www.safedrives.com"]www.safedrives.com[/url]
[img]http://www.safedrives.com/prodimages/autopower/streetsport_lg.jpg[/img]
[url="http://www.safedrives.com/proddetail.asp?prod=AutopowerBar&cat=72"]Easy DIY bolt in installation and just $375![/url]
Charles
[url="http://www.safedrives.com"]www.safedrives.com[/url]
| jmolaver | 02-11-2005 12:36 PM |
Charles -- where does that back pillar bolt into on the WRX/STi? Looks better then a harness bar to me tho, do you have any pictures of that installed in a WRX/STi?
(For anyone that's curious the application # for the Street Sport model is 52805)
(For anyone that's curious the application # for the Street Sport model is 52805)
| Safe Drives | 02-11-2005 03:38 PM |
[QUOTE=jmolaver]Charles -- where does that back pillar bolt into on the WRX/STi? Looks better then a harness bar to me tho, do you have any pictures of that installed in a WRX/STi?
(For anyone that's curious the application # for the Street Sport model is 52805)[/QUOTE]
Check out the pics in this [url="http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=714351"]thread[/url]. We have permision to add these to our database but have not done it yet (thanks Element!). All of the kits for the GD are built on the same jig so the basic shape and design are the same for all the bars. The Street-Sport model just won't have the diagonal that is shown in those images.
Most Autopower products have the rear down tubes hitting the rear fender well and the GD kit does this as well.
This is waaaaayyy safer than just a H bar. We should all use one one of these...:)
HTH
Charles
[url="http://www.safedrives.com"]www.safedrives.com[/url]
(For anyone that's curious the application # for the Street Sport model is 52805)[/QUOTE]
Check out the pics in this [url="http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=714351"]thread[/url]. We have permision to add these to our database but have not done it yet (thanks Element!). All of the kits for the GD are built on the same jig so the basic shape and design are the same for all the bars. The Street-Sport model just won't have the diagonal that is shown in those images.
Most Autopower products have the rear down tubes hitting the rear fender well and the GD kit does this as well.
This is waaaaayyy safer than just a H bar. We should all use one one of these...:)
HTH
Charles
[url="http://www.safedrives.com"]www.safedrives.com[/url]
| srf | 02-11-2005 04:09 PM |
There's no compelling evidence one way or the other about the safety of harness bars (there are numerous examples of people surviving rollovers with harness bars just fine), but going with a Rallye 3 or 4 seems just about as effective while being less expensive. A roll bar does bring problems of its own, such as the risk of non-helmeted passengers on the street coming into contact with the steel.
| jmolaver | 02-11-2005 04:40 PM |
[QUOTE=srf]There's no compelling evidence one way or the other about the safety of harness bars (there are numerous examples of people surviving rollovers with harness bars just fine), but going with a Rallye 3 or 4 seems just about as effective while being less expensive. A roll bar does bring problems of its own, such as the risk of non-helmeted passengers on the street coming into contact with the steel.[/QUOTE]
safety of the harness bars in a rollover aside..
i think the risk is equal to rear passengers with either a harness bar or a roll bar... but i think the bigger issue is being able to [i]fit[/i] into the back seat with the autopower rollbar.. have you seen those pics? you'd have to be in cirque de' soleau (sp?) just to get in!!
safety of the harness bars in a rollover aside..
i think the risk is equal to rear passengers with either a harness bar or a roll bar... but i think the bigger issue is being able to [i]fit[/i] into the back seat with the autopower rollbar.. have you seen those pics? you'd have to be in cirque de' soleau (sp?) just to get in!!
| StealthWRX | 02-11-2005 04:41 PM |
thats true, but if you are thinking of getting a cage you arent really too concerned with rear seat comfort
| wrxsubaru | 02-11-2005 04:46 PM |
[QUOTE=srf]There's no compelling evidence one way or the other about the safety of harness bars (there are numerous examples of people surviving rollovers with harness bars just fine), but going with a Rallye 3 or 4 seems just about as effective while being less expensive. A roll bar does bring problems of its own, such as the risk of non-helmeted passengers on the street coming into contact with the steel.[/QUOTE]
Thats the one reason i never really liked them. If your tring to keep the ability to carry 5 people, then you should do it without compromizing there saftey. The 5 point harrness bars that ive seen are perfectley placed so in a head on colliosion the rear ocupents would smash there heads agaist the metal bar.
Thats the one reason i never really liked them. If your tring to keep the ability to carry 5 people, then you should do it without compromizing there saftey. The 5 point harrness bars that ive seen are perfectley placed so in a head on colliosion the rear ocupents would smash there heads agaist the metal bar.
| sunnynw | 02-11-2005 05:19 PM |
There are many reasons that we at Safe Drives do not sell the harness bars. A quik seach of the NASIOC forum brings all of those reasons to light.
As far as a street car with a roll bar a or cage they really should pad the hell out of it. Pefectly safe as long as it's padded.
As far as a street car with a roll bar a or cage they really should pad the hell out of it. Pefectly safe as long as it's padded.
| dowroa | 02-11-2005 05:23 PM |
[QUOTE=sunnynw]There are many reasons that we at Safe Drives do not sell the harness bars. A quik seach of the NASIOC forum brings all of those reasons to light.
As far as a street car with a roll bar a or cage they really should pad the hell out of it. Pefectly safe as long as it's padded.[/QUOTE]
THAT is a load.
Try slamming a metal pipe on something 'padded' I bet you it STILL makes a nice 'ping' sound, and that is still YOUR HEAD hitting something immovable.
- dow
As far as a street car with a roll bar a or cage they really should pad the hell out of it. Pefectly safe as long as it's padded.[/QUOTE]
THAT is a load.
Try slamming a metal pipe on something 'padded' I bet you it STILL makes a nice 'ping' sound, and that is still YOUR HEAD hitting something immovable.
- dow
| gills | 02-11-2005 05:29 PM |
Interesting stuff.
Well, i want to get something. I've talked to a few road racers about it and they've said not to worry to much about the rollover thing with the harness bar. They said worry about being held in better when smashing a wall or barrier which happens 99.9% of the time.
As for the rear seat passenger stuff, there's no way i'm going to be rolling around town with harnesses in my car. It's an in and out thing in relation to my track days.
Autopower cage guys, where exactly does this bolt in cage bolt to? Do i need to rip out carpet/seats anywhere? Do i need reinforcement plates or bolts, etc? Can i use sparco 5 pt harnesses with this roll bar? Please give more information regarding this product. I'm sure many of us would be greatly appreciative to have a safer alternative to harness bars in the event of a rollover.
Thanks,
Tom
Well, i want to get something. I've talked to a few road racers about it and they've said not to worry to much about the rollover thing with the harness bar. They said worry about being held in better when smashing a wall or barrier which happens 99.9% of the time.
As for the rear seat passenger stuff, there's no way i'm going to be rolling around town with harnesses in my car. It's an in and out thing in relation to my track days.
Autopower cage guys, where exactly does this bolt in cage bolt to? Do i need to rip out carpet/seats anywhere? Do i need reinforcement plates or bolts, etc? Can i use sparco 5 pt harnesses with this roll bar? Please give more information regarding this product. I'm sure many of us would be greatly appreciative to have a safer alternative to harness bars in the event of a rollover.
Thanks,
Tom
| gills | 02-11-2005 05:34 PM |
[QUOTE=dowroa]THAT is a load.
Try slamming a metal pipe on something 'padded' I bet you it STILL makes a nice 'ping' sound, and that is still YOUR HEAD hitting something immovable.
- dow[/QUOTE]
Yes, i was thinking the same exact thing. There's no way a little padding is going to do anything. Maybe a little but not enough in the event of a high g impact.
Try slamming a metal pipe on something 'padded' I bet you it STILL makes a nice 'ping' sound, and that is still YOUR HEAD hitting something immovable.
- dow[/QUOTE]
Yes, i was thinking the same exact thing. There's no way a little padding is going to do anything. Maybe a little but not enough in the event of a high g impact.
| Safe Drives | 02-11-2005 06:21 PM |
[QUOTE=gills]Yes, i was thinking the same exact thing. There's no way a little padding is going to do anything. Maybe a little but not enough in the event of a high g impact.[/QUOTE]
We sell only high quality FIA / SFI certified roll cage padding and I tell you it's good stuff.
Just remember when you drive in your car you are surrounded by steel that is covered by something....usually plastic...:rolleyes: Professional roll cage padding that has been tested to meet impact requirements will do just fine for my roll caged street car thank you.:)
Charles
We sell only high quality FIA / SFI certified roll cage padding and I tell you it's good stuff.
Just remember when you drive in your car you are surrounded by steel that is covered by something....usually plastic...:rolleyes: Professional roll cage padding that has been tested to meet impact requirements will do just fine for my roll caged street car thank you.:)
Charles
| dowroa | 02-11-2005 07:19 PM |
[QUOTE=Safe Drives]We sell only high quality FIA / SFI certified roll cage padding and I tell you it's good stuff.
Just remember when you drive in your car you are surrounded by steel that is covered by something....usually plastic...:rolleyes: Professional roll cage padding that has been tested to meet impact requirements will do just fine for my roll caged street car thank you.:)
Charles[/QUOTE]
I hope you are the only one ever riding in the car, and that you are riding with a 5 point harness everyday.
Do what you like.. I dont see that as safe.
- dow
Just remember when you drive in your car you are surrounded by steel that is covered by something....usually plastic...:rolleyes: Professional roll cage padding that has been tested to meet impact requirements will do just fine for my roll caged street car thank you.:)
Charles[/QUOTE]
I hope you are the only one ever riding in the car, and that you are riding with a 5 point harness everyday.
Do what you like.. I dont see that as safe.
- dow
| Safe Drives | 02-11-2005 07:30 PM |
[QUOTE=dowroa]I hope you are the only one ever riding in the car, and that you are riding with a 5 point harness everyday.
Do what you like.. I dont see that as safe.
- dow[/QUOTE]
To each his own.:) Not all of my cars are caged but I like to drive the caged one as often as possible. Have you noticed what we do? [url="http://www.safedrives.com"]www.safedrives.com[/url]? We are auto safety product specialists :), we like safety stuff. Lot's of it! :eek:
Do what you like.. I dont see that as safe.
- dow[/QUOTE]
To each his own.:) Not all of my cars are caged but I like to drive the caged one as often as possible. Have you noticed what we do? [url="http://www.safedrives.com"]www.safedrives.com[/url]? We are auto safety product specialists :), we like safety stuff. Lot's of it! :eek:
| gills | 02-11-2005 08:28 PM |
I'm completely stuck on what to do now. Should i just get a new seat with more lateral support and keep the factory 3 pt?
Any professional drivers want to chime in?
Any professional drivers want to chime in?
| GC8-40 | 02-11-2005 08:42 PM |
If you are interested in a harness bar, we manufacture them. Check out [url]www.rallyinnovations.com[/url]. I know safety is a big issue to most people. There are ups and downs for a cage or a harness bar, but it just comes down to what kind of racing you plan to do and what the sanctioning body accepts. Feel free to PM me for any questions.
Thanks,
John P.
Rally Innovations
Thanks,
John P.
Rally Innovations
| Brett555 | 02-11-2005 08:50 PM |
I'll chime in on this one. Schroth, probably the top harness belt maker in the world, makes a "quick fit" harness for the WRX and STi. These belts clip into the car via the factory seat belt recepticles. We carry these, but unfortunately this new belt had a fitment issue and an incorrect connector piece was installed on the belts and they won't clip into the U.S. STi's front seat belt receptical as they are supposed to. Schroth Germany is working on this as we speak, so a fix should be coming soon.
But at any rate, Schroth has determined that their 4 pont Rallye 4 style harness is safe for use in the WRX and STi. Go here for more info... [url]http://www.soloracer.com/wrxstirallye4.html[/url]
But at any rate, Schroth has determined that their 4 pont Rallye 4 style harness is safe for use in the WRX and STi. Go here for more info... [url]http://www.soloracer.com/wrxstirallye4.html[/url]
| gills | 02-11-2005 09:00 PM |
[QUOTE=GC8-40]If you are interested in a harness bar, we manufacture them. Check out [url]www.rallyinnovations.com[/url]. I know safety is a big issue to most people. There are ups and downs for a cage or a harness bar, but it just comes down to what kind of racing you plan to do and what the sanctioning body accepts. Feel free to PM me for any questions.
Thanks,
John P.
Rally Innovations[/QUOTE]
The only racing that i plan on doing, in this car, is HPDE/track days for leisure. What would you recommmend? I know you want to make money off of me but please be honest.
Also your bar seems really nice! Thicker steel tubing than sparcos, TIG welds as opposed to MIG on the sparcos. How much is that piece?
***Nevermind, just found the price...$350.00! Not bad. I just need to figure out if this is more or less safe to have than the regular 3 pt.
Thanks,
John P.
Rally Innovations[/QUOTE]
The only racing that i plan on doing, in this car, is HPDE/track days for leisure. What would you recommmend? I know you want to make money off of me but please be honest.
Also your bar seems really nice! Thicker steel tubing than sparcos, TIG welds as opposed to MIG on the sparcos. How much is that piece?
***Nevermind, just found the price...$350.00! Not bad. I just need to figure out if this is more or less safe to have than the regular 3 pt.
| AlpineFD | 02-12-2005 01:43 AM |
Am I correct in saying that, the oem type 3pt seat belt will have the same submarining effect as the racing 3pt harness?
| Eleazar | 02-12-2005 10:18 PM |
So, who's had their roof cave in in a newer WRX or STi ?
| srf | 02-12-2005 10:45 PM |
[QUOTE=Safe Drives]We sell only high quality FIA / SFI certified roll cage padding and I tell you it's good stuff.
Just remember when you drive in your car you are surrounded by steel that is covered by something....usually plastic...:rolleyes: Professional roll cage padding that has been tested to meet impact requirements will do just fine for my roll caged street car thank you.:)
Charles[/QUOTE]
It meets impact requirements sure, but isn't the testing done with SA helmets? The car has a lot of steel in it, but OEM material is a small fraction of the thickness of the roll bar.
Just remember when you drive in your car you are surrounded by steel that is covered by something....usually plastic...:rolleyes: Professional roll cage padding that has been tested to meet impact requirements will do just fine for my roll caged street car thank you.:)
Charles[/QUOTE]
It meets impact requirements sure, but isn't the testing done with SA helmets? The car has a lot of steel in it, but OEM material is a small fraction of the thickness of the roll bar.
| srf | 02-12-2005 10:48 PM |
[QUOTE=AlpineFD]Am I correct in saying that, the oem type 3pt seat belt will have the same submarining effect as the racing 3pt harness?[/QUOTE]
Are you referring to the Rallye 3? That's a 4 point harness (as far as your body is concerned), that mounts in three locations on the car (Rallye 4 is also 4 point, but mounts to four locations on the car). The Rallye harnesses are anti-submarine because the inside shoulder strap expands more than the outside in an accident, which causes your body to go slightly up and inside in a crash rather than leaving the only route down through the lap belts. Notice the small black plastic bit on the inside shoulder harness of Rallye belts.
Are you referring to the Rallye 3? That's a 4 point harness (as far as your body is concerned), that mounts in three locations on the car (Rallye 4 is also 4 point, but mounts to four locations on the car). The Rallye harnesses are anti-submarine because the inside shoulder strap expands more than the outside in an accident, which causes your body to go slightly up and inside in a crash rather than leaving the only route down through the lap belts. Notice the small black plastic bit on the inside shoulder harness of Rallye belts.
| Pakin | 02-13-2005 01:06 AM |
Padded or not, your head is still gonna hit hard without a helmet. From what I understand, those pads provide supplemental cushining for impact with helmets. I would figure some here would know how "heavy" your head can become in a severe impact, and the neck can stretch quite a ways. That foam padding will be nothing more than as thick as a piece of paper by then.
I've torn apart some of Subaru's interiors. And if at all any impact protection was to be added to a roll cage for a passenger/non-helmeted individuals, it would be less of a pad, and more of a harder plastic that is ribbed with crumple zones. Such things can be found in the pillars of the newer Foresters. The plastic is hard at its own of course, but in an impact, it may the softest thing to slowly absorb your head impact making little or no contact with the pillar steel.
-paK +0
I've torn apart some of Subaru's interiors. And if at all any impact protection was to be added to a roll cage for a passenger/non-helmeted individuals, it would be less of a pad, and more of a harder plastic that is ribbed with crumple zones. Such things can be found in the pillars of the newer Foresters. The plastic is hard at its own of course, but in an impact, it may the softest thing to slowly absorb your head impact making little or no contact with the pillar steel.
-paK +0
| AlpineFD | 02-13-2005 06:04 AM |
[QUOTE=srf]Are you referring to the Rallye 3? That's a 4 point harness (as far as your body is concerned), that mounts in three locations on the car (Rallye 4 is also 4 point, but mounts to four locations on the car). The Rallye harnesses are anti-submarine because the inside shoulder strap expands more than the outside in an accident, which causes your body to go slightly up and inside in a crash rather than leaving the only route down through the lap belts. Notice the small black plastic bit on the inside shoulder harness of Rallye belts.[/QUOTE]
I'm referring to 3pt racing harness without the anti-submarining(schrotch) technology. If i choose to use my 3pt sparco racing harness on the street, I'm primarily concerned with two things, 1. roll over(sit up stright) 2. submarining. In an accident, I can accept the risk of rolling over, since roll overs are rare. It's submarining that I'm most concerned about, but it seems like the oem 3pt system have the same submarining risk.
I'm referring to 3pt racing harness without the anti-submarining(schrotch) technology. If i choose to use my 3pt sparco racing harness on the street, I'm primarily concerned with two things, 1. roll over(sit up stright) 2. submarining. In an accident, I can accept the risk of rolling over, since roll overs are rare. It's submarining that I'm most concerned about, but it seems like the oem 3pt system have the same submarining risk.
| boxerboy | 02-13-2005 08:12 AM |
Driving cars can be dangerous. Driving cars fast and racing is even more dangerous. Weigh the risk and do what works best for you.
| gills | 02-13-2005 09:11 PM |
Well, i've done a lot of reading and came to the conclusion that i'm going to pass on the harness bar. Instead i'm going to purchase a CG lock from [url]www.CGlock.com[/url].
Seems like the best alternative if you don't have a roll bar/cage. So i think that with my recaro speed on the way should be much better than my stock STi seat. Looking forward to this season!
Seems like the best alternative if you don't have a roll bar/cage. So i think that with my recaro speed on the way should be much better than my stock STi seat. Looking forward to this season!
| Calamity Jesus | 02-15-2005 04:47 PM |
[QUOTE=AlpineFD]It's submarining that I'm most concerned about, but it seems like the oem 3pt system have the same submarining risk.[/QUOTE]
When your body slams forward into a stock 3 point belt, it simultaneously tightens the portion of the belt that crosses your lap. The shoulder strap and lap strap are both anchored to the floor behind your seat.
When your body slams forward into a racing harness, the shoulder straps pull the lap belt upward while squeezing you downward. You end up squirting out the bottom like toothpaste from a tube. An anti-submarining strap keeps the lap belt from lifting due to the shoulder straps.. but doesn't actually restrain any parts of your body itself.
The Schroth rallye harnesses allow your upper body to shift forward enough so that your hips are caught firmly within the lap belt, and your torso becomes hung up in the shoulder straps.
When your body slams forward into a stock 3 point belt, it simultaneously tightens the portion of the belt that crosses your lap. The shoulder strap and lap strap are both anchored to the floor behind your seat.
When your body slams forward into a racing harness, the shoulder straps pull the lap belt upward while squeezing you downward. You end up squirting out the bottom like toothpaste from a tube. An anti-submarining strap keeps the lap belt from lifting due to the shoulder straps.. but doesn't actually restrain any parts of your body itself.
The Schroth rallye harnesses allow your upper body to shift forward enough so that your hips are caught firmly within the lap belt, and your torso becomes hung up in the shoulder straps.
| ratt_finkel | 02-15-2005 05:30 PM |
This is why I'm going to use a torso harness this season.
| AlpineFD | 02-16-2005 01:15 AM |
[QUOTE=Beaverboy]When your body slams forward into a stock 3 point belt, it simultaneously tightens the portion of the belt that crosses your lap. The shoulder strap and lap strap are both anchored to the floor behind your seat.
When your body slams forward into a racing harness, the shoulder straps pull the lap belt upward while squeezing you downward. You end up squirting out the bottom like toothpaste from a tube. An anti-submarining strap keeps the lap belt from lifting due to the shoulder straps.. but doesn't actually restrain any parts of your body itself.
The Schroth rallye harnesses allow your upper body to shift forward enough so that your hips are caught firmly within the lap belt, and your torso becomes hung up in the shoulder straps.[/QUOTE]
ic, thanks for the explaination, I'll only use my harness during autox then :(
When your body slams forward into a racing harness, the shoulder straps pull the lap belt upward while squeezing you downward. You end up squirting out the bottom like toothpaste from a tube. An anti-submarining strap keeps the lap belt from lifting due to the shoulder straps.. but doesn't actually restrain any parts of your body itself.
The Schroth rallye harnesses allow your upper body to shift forward enough so that your hips are caught firmly within the lap belt, and your torso becomes hung up in the shoulder straps.[/QUOTE]
ic, thanks for the explaination, I'll only use my harness during autox then :(
| 500whp.com | 02-16-2005 02:44 AM |
Here is a reason to get a cage : .... (never know when bad things happen)
[url="http://www.socalevo.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6908"]http://www.socalevo.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6908[/url]
I personally wasn't there but a friend of mine was.. that car flipped many times before it came to a stop. He made it out alive though.
.
[url="http://www.socalevo.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6908"]http://www.socalevo.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6908[/url]
I personally wasn't there but a friend of mine was.. that car flipped many times before it came to a stop. He made it out alive though.
.
| Joel Gat, 1.8L | 02-16-2005 08:40 PM |
[QUOTE=Safe Drives]To each his own.:) Not all of my cars are caged but I like to drive the caged one as often as possible. Have you noticed what we do? [url="http://www.safedrives.com"]www.safedrives.com[/url]? We are auto safety product specialists :), we like safety stuff. Lot's of it! :eek:[/QUOTE]
Hello,
Err, Safe Drives, that's quite scary. You claim to be a safety company but you have not read the SFI specifications that relate to roll bar padding? SFI Spec 45.1 is to reduce injury sustained when a helmetted head impacts a roll bar. The specifications require that the SA-type helmet survive an impact of up to some number of Gs force. That number is enough to blow apart a helmet hitting a metal bar. For that reason, most race sanctioning bodies, from NASA to NHRA, require at least SFI 45.1 padding anywhere where the driver's helmet may strike a roll bar.
One step up from that is FIA Standard 8857-2001 ([url]http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/65259021__FIA_Stand_8857_2001_Rollcage.pdf[/url]) which is for far more severe impacts. Typically, FIA Standard 9957-2001 padding is about 3 times as absorbant as SFI 45.1 padding. Nonetheless, it is _still_ a specification designed to improve helmet survival in an impact situation.
Your head will suffer gravely if it hits a roll cage bar, regardless of whether there is padding on the cage. Try this. Stand up, have two friends hold a metal pipe, put some SFI padding on it, back up, and run into the bar, head first, as fast as you can. If you're a world class athlete, you'll be able to hit it at 15-20 mph. If you're a fat internet geek, you might get 5-10 mph. Either way, once you wake up and you're out of the hospital, try imaging what happens if you get into a wreck at 60+ mph... And if you ever speed along at 90 on the freeway, imagine the carnage when your head hits that bar...
That said, a friend of mine was rear ended at 10-15 mph on the street. He was in his Mazda Miata, which had a HardDog HardCore Roll Bar with SFI 45.1 padding on all tubes. This is a Roll Bar, not a cage. The Bar only exists behind the driver's seat, not in reach of the driver's head. The impact at 10-15 mph was enough to flex the standard seat far enough so that his head impacted the SFI-padded roll bar. He suffered a concussion and had to be taken to the hospital.
Based on the extent of his injury at 10-15 mph, we have no doubt that at a higher speed, his head would have been split open. Of course, had he had no padding, he probably would have been severly injured or killed... at 10-15 mph. BTW, no damage to his Miata.
A car with a roll CAGE is SIGNIFICANTLY more dangerous than a normal closed cockpit street car, to occupants (whether driver or otherwise) who are not wearing helmets.
Roll Bars are another matter. Although they, too, can split your head, an appropriate roll bar will keep the bars far enough away from your head that you cannot hit it. In convertibles, I think roll bars are necessary and can save lives. However, my girlfriend and I accept the fact that we may die from her roll bar in an accident that otherwise would not have caused severe injury. We decided to get the non-Hard Core bar from Hard Dog, because that bar sits about 3" further back and is much less likely to hit someone's head. If I lean forward (head between my knees, passenger seat) and swing my head back hard, however, the seat flexes and my head does contact the bar. We may replace the seats...
A company focused on Safety should more readily admit that racing safety products require racing gear to work appropriately. If you have big metal bars in your car, you need to be wearing head protection.
And in regards to stock cars being metal with plastic covering, that's true, but that metal and plastic is at least 3 inches further from your head. You are far less likely to hit the car interior than you are to hit a roll cage. AND, the NHTSA says the number one way to improve survivability in side impact accidents is to use improved side impact airbags. Import Luxury cars that have such protection are the safest vehicles on the road, to their occupants.
Joel Gat
Crew Chief
Sheehan Motor Racing
Hello,
Err, Safe Drives, that's quite scary. You claim to be a safety company but you have not read the SFI specifications that relate to roll bar padding? SFI Spec 45.1 is to reduce injury sustained when a helmetted head impacts a roll bar. The specifications require that the SA-type helmet survive an impact of up to some number of Gs force. That number is enough to blow apart a helmet hitting a metal bar. For that reason, most race sanctioning bodies, from NASA to NHRA, require at least SFI 45.1 padding anywhere where the driver's helmet may strike a roll bar.
One step up from that is FIA Standard 8857-2001 ([url]http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/65259021__FIA_Stand_8857_2001_Rollcage.pdf[/url]) which is for far more severe impacts. Typically, FIA Standard 9957-2001 padding is about 3 times as absorbant as SFI 45.1 padding. Nonetheless, it is _still_ a specification designed to improve helmet survival in an impact situation.
Your head will suffer gravely if it hits a roll cage bar, regardless of whether there is padding on the cage. Try this. Stand up, have two friends hold a metal pipe, put some SFI padding on it, back up, and run into the bar, head first, as fast as you can. If you're a world class athlete, you'll be able to hit it at 15-20 mph. If you're a fat internet geek, you might get 5-10 mph. Either way, once you wake up and you're out of the hospital, try imaging what happens if you get into a wreck at 60+ mph... And if you ever speed along at 90 on the freeway, imagine the carnage when your head hits that bar...
That said, a friend of mine was rear ended at 10-15 mph on the street. He was in his Mazda Miata, which had a HardDog HardCore Roll Bar with SFI 45.1 padding on all tubes. This is a Roll Bar, not a cage. The Bar only exists behind the driver's seat, not in reach of the driver's head. The impact at 10-15 mph was enough to flex the standard seat far enough so that his head impacted the SFI-padded roll bar. He suffered a concussion and had to be taken to the hospital.
Based on the extent of his injury at 10-15 mph, we have no doubt that at a higher speed, his head would have been split open. Of course, had he had no padding, he probably would have been severly injured or killed... at 10-15 mph. BTW, no damage to his Miata.
A car with a roll CAGE is SIGNIFICANTLY more dangerous than a normal closed cockpit street car, to occupants (whether driver or otherwise) who are not wearing helmets.
Roll Bars are another matter. Although they, too, can split your head, an appropriate roll bar will keep the bars far enough away from your head that you cannot hit it. In convertibles, I think roll bars are necessary and can save lives. However, my girlfriend and I accept the fact that we may die from her roll bar in an accident that otherwise would not have caused severe injury. We decided to get the non-Hard Core bar from Hard Dog, because that bar sits about 3" further back and is much less likely to hit someone's head. If I lean forward (head between my knees, passenger seat) and swing my head back hard, however, the seat flexes and my head does contact the bar. We may replace the seats...
A company focused on Safety should more readily admit that racing safety products require racing gear to work appropriately. If you have big metal bars in your car, you need to be wearing head protection.
And in regards to stock cars being metal with plastic covering, that's true, but that metal and plastic is at least 3 inches further from your head. You are far less likely to hit the car interior than you are to hit a roll cage. AND, the NHTSA says the number one way to improve survivability in side impact accidents is to use improved side impact airbags. Import Luxury cars that have such protection are the safest vehicles on the road, to their occupants.
Joel Gat
Crew Chief
Sheehan Motor Racing
| jmolaver | 02-16-2005 10:14 PM |
^^^^^^^
<sigh> this is the problem with the internet. Clueless Joe (myself included) reads SafeDrive's posts and assumes he knows what he's talking about, after all he's a vendor selling safety gear. Very rarely does someone like Joel come on here and offer educated, researched and well thought out responses that [b]directly contradicts[/b] what a vendor or otherwise respected poster says.
I'm sure SafeDrive wasn't looking to get anyone hurt, merely looking for a sale, but it proves the point of questioning everything on the internet..
I've been bouncing back and forth between a harness bar / rollbar / rear half of a cage for a while now (daily driver that sees a bunch of HPDEs a year), and this info may be the impetus to just go for a simple harness bar if only to lessen the amount of steel in the car.
Anyway, thank you Joel.
<sigh> this is the problem with the internet. Clueless Joe (myself included) reads SafeDrive's posts and assumes he knows what he's talking about, after all he's a vendor selling safety gear. Very rarely does someone like Joel come on here and offer educated, researched and well thought out responses that [b]directly contradicts[/b] what a vendor or otherwise respected poster says.
I'm sure SafeDrive wasn't looking to get anyone hurt, merely looking for a sale, but it proves the point of questioning everything on the internet..
I've been bouncing back and forth between a harness bar / rollbar / rear half of a cage for a while now (daily driver that sees a bunch of HPDEs a year), and this info may be the impetus to just go for a simple harness bar if only to lessen the amount of steel in the car.
Anyway, thank you Joel.
| Safe Drives | 02-17-2005 04:07 AM |
I appologize for my slow response as we have been very, very busy helping to make people safer.
Joel cetainly has his heart in right place and I commend him on that.
What he does not know is that we at Safe Drives are friends with a gentleman by the name of Matt Ray. The Ray family owns BSCI. BSCI is the company that basically wrote the book on SFI and FIA roll cage padding. They were the first company to recieve FIA certification for roll bar pad and among the first to become SFI certified when the first SFI tests were done. He and his family were pioneering forces for increase in quality and certification of roll bar padding in the 1990s. This is all to prove that Mr. Ray knows padding and how it was tested.
Mr. Ray has filled us at Safe Drives in on how padding is tested and certified.
When the SFI or FIA does testing to certify roll bar padding they use a standard crash test dummy head WITHOUT A HELMET. No testing was done with helmets on the dummy heads ever. It turnes out that it is quite safe indeed to have this type of pad in your vehicle and to hit your head on it an accident. Much safer than to hit your head on that plastic that is covering your B pillar or A pillar.
Think about a 5000lb SUV coming through your drivers door at well, any speed really...would you be safer with a cage or without? I like this example because my Mom was killed in accident like this.
I don't want to see people hurt or killed in auto accidents. Sadly over forty thousand people a year are killed in auto related accidents every year. Millions more are injured. Safe Drives has been a dream of mine for over four years now and I am proud of what we are doing.
Thank you,
Charles Buren
CEO / Founder
Safe Drives LLC
[url="http://www.safedrives.com/"]www.safedrives.com[/url]
Joel cetainly has his heart in right place and I commend him on that.
What he does not know is that we at Safe Drives are friends with a gentleman by the name of Matt Ray. The Ray family owns BSCI. BSCI is the company that basically wrote the book on SFI and FIA roll cage padding. They were the first company to recieve FIA certification for roll bar pad and among the first to become SFI certified when the first SFI tests were done. He and his family were pioneering forces for increase in quality and certification of roll bar padding in the 1990s. This is all to prove that Mr. Ray knows padding and how it was tested.
Mr. Ray has filled us at Safe Drives in on how padding is tested and certified.
When the SFI or FIA does testing to certify roll bar padding they use a standard crash test dummy head WITHOUT A HELMET. No testing was done with helmets on the dummy heads ever. It turnes out that it is quite safe indeed to have this type of pad in your vehicle and to hit your head on it an accident. Much safer than to hit your head on that plastic that is covering your B pillar or A pillar.
Think about a 5000lb SUV coming through your drivers door at well, any speed really...would you be safer with a cage or without? I like this example because my Mom was killed in accident like this.
I don't want to see people hurt or killed in auto accidents. Sadly over forty thousand people a year are killed in auto related accidents every year. Millions more are injured. Safe Drives has been a dream of mine for over four years now and I am proud of what we are doing.
Thank you,
Charles Buren
CEO / Founder
Safe Drives LLC
[url="http://www.safedrives.com/"]www.safedrives.com[/url]
| Joel Gat, 1.8L | 02-17-2005 12:49 PM |
Hello,
Oops, this time I put my long response in the other thread. Here:
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8965426#post8965426[/url]
I don't want to keep crossposting the same information, so if you want to read the actual specifications, see the other thread.
I wish / hope I'm wrong - I'd love to be able to have a safe cage in a daily driver.
Joel
Oops, this time I put my long response in the other thread. Here:
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8965426#post8965426[/url]
I don't want to keep crossposting the same information, so if you want to read the actual specifications, see the other thread.
I wish / hope I'm wrong - I'd love to be able to have a safe cage in a daily driver.
Joel
| Joel Gat, 1.8L | 02-18-2005 01:27 AM |
Hello,
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8973390&posted=1#post8973390[/url]
Since Safe Drives didn't mention it in this thread, see the above linked thread for the continuation of this discussion.
Joel
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8973390&posted=1#post8973390[/url]
Since Safe Drives didn't mention it in this thread, see the above linked thread for the continuation of this discussion.
Joel
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