| leecea | 09-01-2004 04:39 PM |
How much is power worth in STX?
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A hypothetical question if I may...
Assume you have two WRXs with identical STX-legal suspension, wheels, and tires, but one has 100% stock engine and the other has been maxed out for STX-legal power delivery.
Put the same driver in each car. What would the time difference be on a typical Divisional or Tour course?
Assume you have two WRXs with identical STX-legal suspension, wheels, and tires, but one has 100% stock engine and the other has been maxed out for STX-legal power delivery.
Put the same driver in each car. What would the time difference be on a typical Divisional or Tour course?
| BriDrive | 09-01-2004 04:54 PM |
Very Roughly looking at an approximate 40~55 hp @ the wheels.
Course variation can play a big role in time differences. On a tight course my guess is anywhere from 0.5 ~ 1.5 seconds. On a faster, more open course (where 2nd gear turns are higher rpm and longer straights abound) it could be significantly faster, say 1.0 ~ 2.5 seconds.
BriDrive
Course variation can play a big role in time differences. On a tight course my guess is anywhere from 0.5 ~ 1.5 seconds. On a faster, more open course (where 2nd gear turns are higher rpm and longer straights abound) it could be significantly faster, say 1.0 ~ 2.5 seconds.
BriDrive
| Jsortor | 09-01-2004 05:08 PM |
[QUOTE=BriDrive]Very Roughly looking at an approximate 40~55 hp @ the wheels.
Course variation can play a big role in time differences. On a tight course my guess is anywhere from 0.5 ~ 1.5 seconds. On a faster, more open course (where 2nd gear turns are higher rpm and longer straights abound) it could be significantly faster, say 1.0 ~ 2.5 seconds.
BriDrive[/QUOTE]
I concur.
Course variation can play a big role in time differences. On a tight course my guess is anywhere from 0.5 ~ 1.5 seconds. On a faster, more open course (where 2nd gear turns are higher rpm and longer straights abound) it could be significantly faster, say 1.0 ~ 2.5 seconds.
BriDrive[/QUOTE]
I concur.
| AustinTX | 09-01-2004 05:26 PM |
How about compared to a car with only a TBE?
| omahasubaru | 09-01-2004 06:03 PM |
.5 - 1.1 TOPS, no matter the course IMHO.
| cooleyjb | 09-01-2004 06:11 PM |
[QUOTE=omahasubaru].5 - 1.1 TOPS, no matter the course IMHO.[/QUOTE]
ditto
ditto
| KC | 09-01-2004 08:01 PM |
[QUOTE=BriDrive]Very Roughly looking at an approximate 40~55 hp @ the wheels.
Course variation can play a big role in time differences. On a tight course my guess is anywhere from 0.5 ~ 1.5 seconds. On a faster, more open course (where 2nd gear turns are higher rpm and longer straights abound) it could be significantly faster, say 1.0 ~ 2.5 seconds.
BriDrive[/QUOTE]
What he said.
Course variation can play a big role in time differences. On a tight course my guess is anywhere from 0.5 ~ 1.5 seconds. On a faster, more open course (where 2nd gear turns are higher rpm and longer straights abound) it could be significantly faster, say 1.0 ~ 2.5 seconds.
BriDrive[/QUOTE]
What he said.
| cooleyjb | 09-01-2004 08:33 PM |
As a side note
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If MNBiker keeps going next year with his Wagon we'll find this out. We will both have a fairly identical suspension. The only difference will be the engine. Mine stock and his full STX.
joe
joe
| TeamSlowdotOrg | 09-01-2004 09:09 PM |
Some of the power mods save some significant weight too.
| MNbiker | 09-01-2004 09:28 PM |
[QUOTE=cooleyjb]If MNBiker keeps going next year with his Wagon we'll find this out. We will both have a fairly identical suspension. The only difference will be the engine. Mine stock and his full STX.
[/QUOTE]
and maybe a few other differences.... :devil:
[/QUOTE]
and maybe a few other differences.... :devil:
| leecea | 09-01-2004 10:04 PM |
Thanks everyone.
I did a quick analysis of how the best DS WRXs have done in this year's Tours, the NEDIV, and 2003 Natl. They were 2.5-5.0% slower than the class winners.
It looks like a partially preped STX car is no closer to being competitive than a fully preped DS car :(
I did a quick analysis of how the best DS WRXs have done in this year's Tours, the NEDIV, and 2003 Natl. They were 2.5-5.0% slower than the class winners.
It looks like a partially preped STX car is no closer to being competitive than a fully preped DS car :(
| cooleyjb | 09-01-2004 10:25 PM |
[QUOTE=MNbiker]and maybe a few other differences.... :devil:[/QUOTE]
Hey now. Is there some supersecret device you are installing
joe
Hey now. Is there some supersecret device you are installing
joe
| cooleyjb | 09-01-2004 10:33 PM |
[QUOTE=leecea]Thanks everyone.
I did a quick analysis of how the best DS WRXs have done in this year's Tours, the NEDIV, and 2003 Natl. They were 2.5-5.0% slower than the class winners.
It looks like a partially preped STX car is no closer to being competitive than a fully preped DS car :([/QUOTE]
As many people have said the number of people campaigning STX seriously at the national level is pretty high. The number of DS national WRX competitors is much closer to zero. It's not a great comparison.
As for the partially prepped STX car being competitive I have seen many a good drivers use a lesser prepared car and win.
My .02 on power for acceleration. It's only 1/3 of what you do in an auto-x along with stopping and turning. Beat everyone else on those 2 and you'll do just fine.
I did a quick analysis of how the best DS WRXs have done in this year's Tours, the NEDIV, and 2003 Natl. They were 2.5-5.0% slower than the class winners.
It looks like a partially preped STX car is no closer to being competitive than a fully preped DS car :([/QUOTE]
As many people have said the number of people campaigning STX seriously at the national level is pretty high. The number of DS national WRX competitors is much closer to zero. It's not a great comparison.
As for the partially prepped STX car being competitive I have seen many a good drivers use a lesser prepared car and win.
My .02 on power for acceleration. It's only 1/3 of what you do in an auto-x along with stopping and turning. Beat everyone else on those 2 and you'll do just fine.
| baileypicks24 | 09-01-2004 10:48 PM |
[QUOTE=cooleyjb]
My .02 on power for acceleration. It's only 1/3 of what you do in an auto-x along with stopping and turning. Beat everyone else on those 2 and you'll do just fine.[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://ermac.net/i/werd.jpg[/IMG]
My .02 on power for acceleration. It's only 1/3 of what you do in an auto-x along with stopping and turning. Beat everyone else on those 2 and you'll do just fine.[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://ermac.net/i/werd.jpg[/IMG]
| leecea | 09-01-2004 10:54 PM |
Hi cooleyjb,
Yes, those are good points and I have seen it happen. People who are determined to win either switch cars or move to STX, so the pool of competitive DS drivers is weaker for the WRX.
You are also correct that a better driver could win in either situation, but I don't think I can become an uber-driver, maybe just equal to the others (and even that's a stretch).
So I am trying to see where to aim for in the next couple of years. At the moment, with all the seat time I need, it doesn't matter too much cause it's all just learning and any class will do for that.
I guess I'll stay with DS for another year at least. Whatever I learn there will be good experience and I won't have to mess with my car.
Yes, those are good points and I have seen it happen. People who are determined to win either switch cars or move to STX, so the pool of competitive DS drivers is weaker for the WRX.
You are also correct that a better driver could win in either situation, but I don't think I can become an uber-driver, maybe just equal to the others (and even that's a stretch).
So I am trying to see where to aim for in the next couple of years. At the moment, with all the seat time I need, it doesn't matter too much cause it's all just learning and any class will do for that.
I guess I'll stay with DS for another year at least. Whatever I learn there will be good experience and I won't have to mess with my car.
| Stime187 | 09-01-2004 11:04 PM |
[QUOTE=baileypicks24][IMG]http://ermac.net/i/werd.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Wow. :lol: That's great.
Wow. :lol: That's great.
| KC | 09-02-2004 06:06 AM |
Att his time, there are *0* WRXs in DS for Nationals. If that doesn't tell you something.... ;)
| Scooby Freak | 09-02-2004 07:21 AM |
[QUOTE=leecea]A hypothetical question if I may...[/QUOTE]
Join me in STX next year. We'll be overloaded w/ variables to adjust & screw up, but we'll learn a lot. ;)
[QUOTE=BriDrive]40~55 hp @ the wheels[/QUOTE]
Wow, is that just from uppipe & turboback w/ high flow cat?
<thread hijack>
switching from DS to STX, I figure I will get these things:
-thicker rear sway bar
-coilovers
-full exhaust
-Falken Azenis
Is there anything else important that I'm overlooking? like a trunkmonkey?
</thread hijack>
Join me in STX next year. We'll be overloaded w/ variables to adjust & screw up, but we'll learn a lot. ;)
[QUOTE=BriDrive]40~55 hp @ the wheels[/QUOTE]
Wow, is that just from uppipe & turboback w/ high flow cat?
<thread hijack>
switching from DS to STX, I figure I will get these things:
-thicker rear sway bar
-coilovers
-full exhaust
-Falken Azenis
Is there anything else important that I'm overlooking? like a trunkmonkey?
</thread hijack>
| kwh29 | 09-02-2004 10:19 AM |
[QUOTE=KC]Att his time, there are *0* WRXs in DS for Nationals. If that doesn't tell you something.... ;)[/QUOTE]
Yeah when the WRX can't win DS at a Pro you know the cards are stacked against you... The car is just too weather dependent in that class. Get some rain and stomp, get one dry run and be beaten by over a second. Not so good.
--Kevin H.
Yeah when the WRX can't win DS at a Pro you know the cards are stacked against you... The car is just too weather dependent in that class. Get some rain and stomp, get one dry run and be beaten by over a second. Not so good.
--Kevin H.
| Corey | 09-02-2004 10:27 AM |
It's interesting to hear that you guys think that much power is worth up to 2.5 seconds on a fast National course. I really have a hard time buying into that.
leecea,
One thing to consider is the impact that competition will have on your driving progress. Locally, where will you get the best opportunity to compete directly against top level drivers? STX or DS? I'd aim for the one that offers the stiffest competitoin on a regular basis.
Corey #89 STS
:D
leecea,
One thing to consider is the impact that competition will have on your driving progress. Locally, where will you get the best opportunity to compete directly against top level drivers? STX or DS? I'd aim for the one that offers the stiffest competitoin on a regular basis.
Corey #89 STS
:D
| BriDrive | 09-02-2004 11:30 AM |
[QUOTE=Corey]It's interesting to hear that you guys think that much power is worth up to 2.5 seconds on a fast National course. I really have a hard time buying into that.
:D[/QUOTE]
My estimate was up to 2.5 seconds...yeah...it can be that much....
Throw in a completely stock exhaust and uppipe and you will lag around any course like you have engine problems compared to an STX rules maxed breather/exhauster....add in a little ECU (Non Boost Table Altered) tweaking on a dyno and WHAMMO...yes sir...you have a different car :eek:
BriDrive
:D[/QUOTE]
My estimate was up to 2.5 seconds...yeah...it can be that much....
Throw in a completely stock exhaust and uppipe and you will lag around any course like you have engine problems compared to an STX rules maxed breather/exhauster....add in a little ECU (Non Boost Table Altered) tweaking on a dyno and WHAMMO...yes sir...you have a different car :eek:
BriDrive
| leecea | 09-02-2004 11:47 AM |
[QUOTE=Corey]
leecea,
One thing to consider is the impact that competition will have on your driving progress. Locally, where will you get the best opportunity to compete directly against top level drivers? STX or DS? I'd aim for the one that offers the stiffest competitoin on a regular basis.
Corey #89 STS
:D[/QUOTE]
Thanks Corey. I agree and I think our area has some pretty stiff competition in both classes. SUSQ often has 4-5 DS cars in the top-10 PAX and I can always rely on being beaten by the Red and White WRXs that run DS in our events. I think I can still learn a lot from trying to keep up with those guys and, much as I'd love to try it, I can't realistically hope to build a half-decent STX car at the moment.
leecea,
One thing to consider is the impact that competition will have on your driving progress. Locally, where will you get the best opportunity to compete directly against top level drivers? STX or DS? I'd aim for the one that offers the stiffest competitoin on a regular basis.
Corey #89 STS
:D[/QUOTE]
Thanks Corey. I agree and I think our area has some pretty stiff competition in both classes. SUSQ often has 4-5 DS cars in the top-10 PAX and I can always rely on being beaten by the Red and White WRXs that run DS in our events. I think I can still learn a lot from trying to keep up with those guys and, much as I'd love to try it, I can't realistically hope to build a half-decent STX car at the moment.
| TheWRX | 09-02-2004 12:52 PM |
[QUOTE=Corey]It's interesting to hear that you guys think that much power is worth up to 2.5 seconds on a fast National course. I really have a hard time buying into that.[/QUOTE]
Me too. I would be surprised if it was more than a few tenths.
Me too. I would be surprised if it was more than a few tenths.
| rockt104 | 09-02-2004 01:23 PM |
leecea,
Are you the guy with the silver sedan that I talk with? I drive the blue sedan without a wing in STX...I am with Corey, that 2.5 sec sounds high IMO. I would say that an under prepared STX car would still be a better bet locally...and a lot more fun on the street.
Kevin
Are you the guy with the silver sedan that I talk with? I drive the blue sedan without a wing in STX...I am with Corey, that 2.5 sec sounds high IMO. I would say that an under prepared STX car would still be a better bet locally...and a lot more fun on the street.
Kevin
| ratt_finkel | 09-02-2004 01:41 PM |
[QUOTE=Scooby Freak]
switching from DS to STX, I figure I will get these things:
-thicker rear sway bar
-coilovers
-full exhaust
-Falken Azenis
[/QUOTE]
Stiffer front sway bar, camber plates. CAI, Headers, STX legal ECU.
switching from DS to STX, I figure I will get these things:
-thicker rear sway bar
-coilovers
-full exhaust
-Falken Azenis
[/QUOTE]
Stiffer front sway bar, camber plates. CAI, Headers, STX legal ECU.
| ratt_finkel | 09-02-2004 01:44 PM |
[QUOTE=rockt104]leecea,
Are you the guy with the silver sedan that I talk with? I drive the blue sedan without a wing in STX...I am with Corey, that 2.5 sec sounds high IMO. I would say that an under prepared STX car would still be a better bet locally...and a lot more fun on the street.
Kevin[/QUOTE]
In my region, that's actually a little low. Obviously this is realistically all driver dependent. But the DS guys are usually 4+ seconds behind our head STX guy.
Are you the guy with the silver sedan that I talk with? I drive the blue sedan without a wing in STX...I am with Corey, that 2.5 sec sounds high IMO. I would say that an under prepared STX car would still be a better bet locally...and a lot more fun on the street.
Kevin[/QUOTE]
In my region, that's actually a little low. Obviously this is realistically all driver dependent. But the DS guys are usually 4+ seconds behind our head STX guy.
| Scooby Freak | 09-02-2004 02:12 PM |
[QUOTE=ratt_finkel]Stiffer front sway bar[/QUOTE]
got that for DS :)
[QUOTE=ratt_finkel]camber plates[/QUOTE]
they come w/ the coilovers
[QUOTE=ratt_finkel]CAI[/QUOTE]
I was probably just going to remove the intake silencer.
[QUOTE=ratt_finkel]Headers[/QUOTE]
Is this necessary?
[QUOTE=ratt_finkel]STX legal ECU.[/QUOTE]
I'll hold off on this till the rules are clarified, or until I've done everything else on my list.
Thanks for the advice, keep it coming.
got that for DS :)
[QUOTE=ratt_finkel]camber plates[/QUOTE]
they come w/ the coilovers
[QUOTE=ratt_finkel]CAI[/QUOTE]
I was probably just going to remove the intake silencer.
[QUOTE=ratt_finkel]Headers[/QUOTE]
Is this necessary?
[QUOTE=ratt_finkel]STX legal ECU.[/QUOTE]
I'll hold off on this till the rules are clarified, or until I've done everything else on my list.
Thanks for the advice, keep it coming.
| leecea | 09-02-2004 02:52 PM |
[QUOTE=rockt104]leecea,
Are you the guy with the silver sedan that I talk with? I drive the blue sedan without a wing in STX...I am with Corey, that 2.5 sec sounds high IMO. I would say that an under prepared STX car would still be a better bet locally...and a lot more fun on the street.
Kevin[/QUOTE]
Yes, I have the silver sedan. On the 15th I was working at that long left-hand sweeper and watching you battle with the wagon. It was cool to see how your car handled the turn. It seems to stay flat and have a neutral balance. Nice drifting BTW :)
The whole "fun on the street" thing is a double edged sword. I have enough trouble staying close to legal speeds already and my boss just got nailed with a 5 point ticket in his M3, so that gave me a bit of a wake-up call.
Are you the guy with the silver sedan that I talk with? I drive the blue sedan without a wing in STX...I am with Corey, that 2.5 sec sounds high IMO. I would say that an under prepared STX car would still be a better bet locally...and a lot more fun on the street.
Kevin[/QUOTE]
Yes, I have the silver sedan. On the 15th I was working at that long left-hand sweeper and watching you battle with the wagon. It was cool to see how your car handled the turn. It seems to stay flat and have a neutral balance. Nice drifting BTW :)
The whole "fun on the street" thing is a double edged sword. I have enough trouble staying close to legal speeds already and my boss just got nailed with a 5 point ticket in his M3, so that gave me a bit of a wake-up call.
| rockt104 | 09-02-2004 05:49 PM |
[QUOTE=ratt_finkel]In my region, that's actually a little low. Obviously this is realistically all driver dependent. But the DS guys are usually 4+ seconds behind our head STX guy.[/QUOTE]
I was not implying that i was 2.5 seconds faster than the DS guys in my region, that comment was directed at the original value of hp question...BUT, to comment, I am no where near 4 seconds ahead of the DS guys in my region. But like you said, that is driver and course dependent...acknowledging that their hoosiers are not as valuable on slower, tighter local courses.
That was a fun corner...but my car was way too loose :p
Kevin
I was not implying that i was 2.5 seconds faster than the DS guys in my region, that comment was directed at the original value of hp question...BUT, to comment, I am no where near 4 seconds ahead of the DS guys in my region. But like you said, that is driver and course dependent...acknowledging that their hoosiers are not as valuable on slower, tighter local courses.
That was a fun corner...but my car was way too loose :p
Kevin
| PKer | 09-02-2004 06:47 PM |
2.5 Seconds on a one minute course is waaay too much. I think it's more likely in the 1 second range.
| TeamSlowdotOrg | 09-02-2004 10:59 PM |
A DS car should be, according to index (and complain all you want but Index is a pretty damned good estimate especially in the lower powered classes) about .075 seconds slower on a 60 second course than an STX car.
Everything competitive I can think of off the top of my head aside from the SRT4 that is legal in DS is legal in STX. Race tires are fast.
Good advice is only good if you take it. All the advice given here on worthwhile power mods is good advice. I also agree that there is a huge, HUGE difference coming out of corners between a stock and STX WRX. Easily worth a second on a nationals course, or say, Peru's ProSolo this year. I know how a stock WRX would have behaved and I would have been waiting for the power about when Steve's wagon had me braking for the next corner.
Everything competitive I can think of off the top of my head aside from the SRT4 that is legal in DS is legal in STX. Race tires are fast.
Good advice is only good if you take it. All the advice given here on worthwhile power mods is good advice. I also agree that there is a huge, HUGE difference coming out of corners between a stock and STX WRX. Easily worth a second on a nationals course, or say, Peru's ProSolo this year. I know how a stock WRX would have behaved and I would have been waiting for the power about when Steve's wagon had me braking for the next corner.
| cooleyjb | 09-02-2004 11:32 PM |
[QUOTE=TeamSlowdotOrg] I know how a stock WRX would have behaved and I would have been waiting for the power about when Steve's wagon had me braking for the next corner.[/QUOTE]
Definitely
There were many times at Miller Park where Steve's wagon was at full throttle through sweeping turns where my DS wagon (now STX) was plowing throught turns.
Definitely
There were many times at Miller Park where Steve's wagon was at full throttle through sweeping turns where my DS wagon (now STX) was plowing throught turns.
| ratt_finkel | 09-03-2004 11:31 AM |
[QUOTE=Scooby Freak]got that for DS :)
they come w/ the coilovers
I was probably just going to remove the intake silencer.
Is this necessary?
I'll hold off on this till the rules are clarified, or until I've done everything else on my list.
Thanks for the advice, keep it coming.[/QUOTE]
Good, keep it for STX as well.
Not all coilovers come with camber plates.
That will probably work just as well.
More power can't hurt.
People on this forum are using them, I don't see why you should wait.
Of course, all the parts in the world won't mean jack if you can't drive.
they come w/ the coilovers
I was probably just going to remove the intake silencer.
Is this necessary?
I'll hold off on this till the rules are clarified, or until I've done everything else on my list.
Thanks for the advice, keep it coming.[/QUOTE]
Good, keep it for STX as well.
Not all coilovers come with camber plates.
That will probably work just as well.
More power can't hurt.
People on this forum are using them, I don't see why you should wait.
Of course, all the parts in the world won't mean jack if you can't drive.
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