| Rallycarperson | 09-20-2004 09:02 PM |
Is The WRC Still Real Rally??
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I have allways looked at rallies as tough challenges. Many years ago, it was an accomplishment if you even finished one. Latley, I have noticed that WRC is not a 'real' rally anymore. After the WRC Safari was taken away, there hasn't been much 'challenge' in the WRC, as before. Also, there arent any night stages in the WRC anymore, except for Super Specials. That alone takes away alot of that 'challenge'. As Stig Bloomquist commented in New Zealand, today stages are two-three times shorter than 20 years ago. Dont get me wrong, any rally is a BIG challenge, but it seems it was more before. Anyone else think this...or am I loosing it?? Thanks.
-Mark
[url="http://www.MAPmotors.com"]www.MAPmotors.com[/url]
-Mark
[url="http://www.MAPmotors.com"]www.MAPmotors.com[/url]
| artkevin | 09-20-2004 09:17 PM |
I do think they have been nutored a bit but it will probably be attributed to saftey, just like in F1. Danger is entertaining but loosing drivers is not. I would like to see night stages and the Safari Rally come back though. They are good showcases for what car/driver can do.
| Jon Bogert | 09-20-2004 09:43 PM |
Yeah, I hear you. I want to see three mechanics dropped by helicopter into a muddy field at 4AM changing the complete suspension from gravel to tarmac spec while the driver pops dexedrine and the co-driver dresses an open head wound.
| speedyHAM | 09-20-2004 10:15 PM |
If you want blood and guts rally go to a SCCA Pro Rally in the US somewhere. I have spent all night on the side of a highway 20 miles from the nearest bar (the gas station was 10 miles farther down the road) trying to fix a transmission while other teams around us were re-welding rollcages, using come-alongs to hold the suspension members in place (he actually finished the nights stages that way), and one tean was even trying to make a new skidplate (they lost theirs somewhere in the woods). If you really want to get in on the action find a way to join a crew and help "work on" (read-> repair) a car during the rally. With the amount of parts they break, and the time limits for pit stops it's really a great time.
| WRXedUSA | 09-20-2004 11:41 PM |
Monte Carlo and Sweden have night stages.
I agree. The East African Rally is rally in its purest form. We will never see that again. Back int he days when rallies went on for 7 days at a time, are gone.
EAR will make a comeback. It has has success lately in the African Rally Championship.
I agree. The East African Rally is rally in its purest form. We will never see that again. Back int he days when rallies went on for 7 days at a time, are gone.
EAR will make a comeback. It has has success lately in the African Rally Championship.
| akmotorsports | 09-21-2004 12:17 AM |
[QUOTE=artkevin]...it will probably be attributed to safety, just like in F1. Danger is entertaining but loosing drivers is not. I would like to see night stages and the Safari Rally come back though. They are good showcases for what car/driver can do.[/QUOTE]
You are correct on the safety front... has everybody forgotten T. Makkinen's near brush with death in Corsica a few years back? His co-driver was out for a few rallies after that. I remember one of the Skoda Octavias in Monte Carlo (possibly earlier that same year), breaking through a stone wall. The only thing preventing them from continuing over the 200-foot cliff was a lowly telephone pole. :huh:
As far as stages are concerned, I remember a rally veteran commenting on how rallies are now merely 3-day sprints off-road or on-road depending on the location. However he still thought they were still extremely technical, possibly more so than before.
I really wish that they bring back the Safari Rally... the only hurdle I see is the already escalating cost of running a WRC team. You be the judge on that...
You are correct on the safety front... has everybody forgotten T. Makkinen's near brush with death in Corsica a few years back? His co-driver was out for a few rallies after that. I remember one of the Skoda Octavias in Monte Carlo (possibly earlier that same year), breaking through a stone wall. The only thing preventing them from continuing over the 200-foot cliff was a lowly telephone pole. :huh:
As far as stages are concerned, I remember a rally veteran commenting on how rallies are now merely 3-day sprints off-road or on-road depending on the location. However he still thought they were still extremely technical, possibly more so than before.
I really wish that they bring back the Safari Rally... the only hurdle I see is the already escalating cost of running a WRC team. You be the judge on that...
| Pakin | 09-21-2004 12:47 AM |
Well at least Dakar still exists.
-paK +1
-paK +1
| Orson | 09-21-2004 06:28 AM |
The other day, I was watching a video summary of the 1986 season. No, it's not like it used to be. 1000km rallies. I think you are lucky to see a 400km rally these days. Rallying used to be a true endurance event. Only the fast AND strong won. Now it is a series of sprints.
Given the choice, I would prefer lower powered cars and longer rallies rather than higher powered cars and shorter rallies.
Given the choice, I would prefer lower powered cars and longer rallies rather than higher powered cars and shorter rallies.
| thrdeye | 09-21-2004 07:30 AM |
Doesn't matter how long the damn rally is...we would still only get 1.5 hrs of speed channel coverage per month. :furious:
| Bonzo | 09-21-2004 08:40 AM |
[QUOTE=Pakin]Well at least Dakar still exists.
[/QUOTE]
Their are a few big races a year I watch every minute of the coverage. The Dakar is one of them.
My opinion on SpeetTV is two big thumbs up!!!! Thanks for showing WRC.
[/QUOTE]
Their are a few big races a year I watch every minute of the coverage. The Dakar is one of them.
My opinion on SpeetTV is two big thumbs up!!!! Thanks for showing WRC.
| Dr. WOT | 09-21-2004 11:41 AM |
[QUOTE=thrdeye]Doesn't matter how long the damn rally is...we would still only get 1.5 hrs of speed channel coverage per month. :furious:[/QUOTE]
:rolleyes:
Did you know that we get better coverage than the rest the world?
:rolleyes:
Did you know that we get better coverage than the rest the world?
| thrdeye | 09-21-2004 11:54 AM |
I don't care what the rest of the world gets for coverage. That was not my point.
| artkevin | 09-21-2004 12:37 PM |
I think that Speed does a good job of putting it togther in a good condensed format. They could show 6hrs or so worth of footage but how much of that would be interesting? I am just glad that is now same weekend coverage rather then delayed a week.
| akmotorsports | 09-21-2004 01:08 PM |
I think SPEED does a damn good job for the WRC... I was in the Baltic region at the time when they were running in Neste Finland 2003. I was lying in a hotel room sick and they showed 15mins of highlights per day on Eurosport, but that's it. Although they DID have a more extensive recap, it was still broadcast at 2-3 AM. :furious:
| musee13 | 09-21-2004 01:14 PM |
Maybe the rallies are still just as tough to a degree, but with technology and car setup they make it look easy.
Amber
Amber
| Kiwi | 09-21-2004 01:15 PM |
No Way.....
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[QUOTE=Dr. WOT]:rolleyes:
Did you know that we get better coverage than the rest the world?[/QUOTE]
:confused:
Lack of WRC coverage over here is taking some getting used to.
Still, at least some coverage is better than none. :)
Did you know that we get better coverage than the rest the world?[/QUOTE]
:confused:
Lack of WRC coverage over here is taking some getting used to.
Still, at least some coverage is better than none. :)
| TimStevens | 09-21-2004 01:56 PM |
[QUOTE=thrdeye]I don't care what the rest of the world gets for coverage. That was not my point.[/QUOTE]
Seeing as how Speed is totally dependant on the rest of the world to provide it's content to put together their rally summary show, one point is directly related to the other. And, considering the popularity of WRC here vs. in the UK, the fact that we get better coverage than them should tell you Speed ain't doing too bad.
Seeing as how Speed is totally dependant on the rest of the world to provide it's content to put together their rally summary show, one point is directly related to the other. And, considering the popularity of WRC here vs. in the UK, the fact that we get better coverage than them should tell you Speed ain't doing too bad.
| sunnynw | 09-21-2004 02:30 PM |
[QUOTE=Dr. WOT]
Did you know that we get better coverage than the rest the world?[/QUOTE]
From Inmarsat's website: WRC is the largest spectator motorsport in the world. Not only does it attract 12 million people to its live events, but some 1 billion also follow WRC on television around the world. Broadcast to over 200 countries.
And we get 1.5 hours.... :huh:
Did you know that we get better coverage than the rest the world?[/QUOTE]
From Inmarsat's website: WRC is the largest spectator motorsport in the world. Not only does it attract 12 million people to its live events, but some 1 billion also follow WRC on television around the world. Broadcast to over 200 countries.
And we get 1.5 hours.... :huh:
| TimStevens | 09-21-2004 02:35 PM |
And the UK gets 1.
| Rallycarperson | 09-21-2004 02:43 PM |
Also, I would like to see a regular 6-speed tranny with a clutch.
I guess I just have to adjust with the changing technology.
-Mark
[url="http://www.MAPmotors.com"]www.MAPmotors.com[/url]
I guess I just have to adjust with the changing technology.
-Mark
[url="http://www.MAPmotors.com"]www.MAPmotors.com[/url]
| sunnynw | 09-21-2004 02:57 PM |
[QUOTE=TimStevens]And the UK gets 1.[/QUOTE]
Well, you can take off the WRC Magazine half hour program...I find it just fluff.
Let's see .5 hour more in-car!! :D
Well, you can take off the WRC Magazine half hour program...I find it just fluff.
Let's see .5 hour more in-car!! :D
| KC | 09-21-2004 03:58 PM |
[QUOTE=Dr. WOT]:rolleyes:
Did you know that we get better coverage than the rest the world?[/QUOTE]
The rest of the world GO to the rallies. :)
--kC
Did you know that we get better coverage than the rest the world?[/QUOTE]
The rest of the world GO to the rallies. :)
--kC
| RallyFord | 09-21-2004 04:26 PM |
cost
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Safety and COST - seems like everything FIA has done this year to rally involves saving teams money somehow, and they have a point, it's expensive to rally. Ford could be leaving the WRC, it sounds like they don't have a big enough budget for it next year. Audi's gone, Skoda's coming back, who knows if Mitsubishi will continue to fold and give up on rally...
| dwx | 09-21-2004 04:53 PM |
They needed about 4-5 less rallies this year, imho. They wanted to cut costs but then they make teams criss cross the world going to new events... The travel budget has to be a huge part of their budget this year. I'd love to see them cut back down to 10-12 rallies and allow three points drivers.
| artkevin | 09-21-2004 04:56 PM |
I like more rallies versus more testing. Keep the cars busy running in front of spectators, not on closed courses back in England/the Cech Republic or where ever they are in the world.
| Calamity Jesus | 09-21-2004 04:59 PM |
[QUOTE=akmotorsports] I was in the Baltic region at the time when they were running in Neste Finland 2003. I was lying in a hotel room sick and they showed 15mins of highlights per day on Eurosport, but that's it. Although they DID have a more extensive recap, it was still broadcast at 2-3 AM. :furious:[/QUOTE]
2-3AM Baltic time is still earlier than 10pm Eastern US. :confused: They have to actually compile the program after the rally.
2-3AM Baltic time is still earlier than 10pm Eastern US. :confused: They have to actually compile the program after the rally.
| akmotorsports | 09-21-2004 06:57 PM |
Yes it IS earlier, BUT it's no longer during prime time... I would've rather had it show the following day. I'd say total covergage was 1 hr total for the entire weekend. However they DID have broadcasts of the DTM races so I didn't really complain too much. :cool:
| WRXedUSA | 09-21-2004 09:55 PM |
Swedish TV coverage showed a 5 second blip of the rally each night it was on. THEN the Eurosport coverage came on at 2am local time.
Nicky Grist told me in the service park that we should be fortunate. I think his view is right compared what with the rest of the world gets.
Nicky Grist told me in the service park that we should be fortunate. I think his view is right compared what with the rest of the world gets.
| impretza | 09-22-2004 11:16 AM |
The rallies have really changed over the years.Something like the safari was an endurance rally and the thought of even finishing was enough.With all the new rules they have now the WRC events are no longer as thrilling as they were before.-
| Alizarin | 09-22-2004 05:01 PM |
In regards to the tv coverage on Speed, I liked it better when they did an hour long recap of the day's action with the Rally XS on Monday nights. But for right now anything is better than nothing, especially since I don't have Speed channel anymore (moved, not in basic cable here).
| boricuajr | 09-22-2004 07:53 PM |
here you go, hopefully this can hold you down for now until i upload some more enjoy as i did
more to come!
[URL=http://www.gofastvideo.com/gallery/getitem/129/1/aae.wmv]WRC 01[/URL]
right click save as
or double click ^ :banana:
more to come!
[URL=http://www.gofastvideo.com/gallery/getitem/129/1/aae.wmv]WRC 01[/URL]
right click save as
or double click ^ :banana:
| boricuajr | 09-22-2004 07:58 PM |
[URL=http://www.gofastvideo.com/gallery/getitem/126/1/aab.wmv]WRC 02 [/URL]
[URL=http://www.gofastvideo.com/gallery/getitem/125/1/aaa.wmv]WRC 03 [/URL]
[URL=http://www.gofastvideo.com/gallery/getitem/127/1/aac.mpg]WRC 04[/URL]
enjoy^ ;)
[URL=http://www.gofastvideo.com/gallery/getitem/125/1/aaa.wmv]WRC 03 [/URL]
[URL=http://www.gofastvideo.com/gallery/getitem/127/1/aac.mpg]WRC 04[/URL]
enjoy^ ;)
| Porter | 09-23-2004 08:58 AM |
[QUOTE=boricuajr]here you go, hopefully this can hold you down for now until i upload some more enjoy as i did
more to come!
[URL=http://www.gofastvideo.com/gallery/getitem/129/1/aae.wmv]WRC 01[/URL]
right click save as
or double click ^ :banana:[/QUOTE]
Is this Pou's video?
[edit] Yep, it is Pou's video. You should maybe PM him and let him know you're hosting it, see if he cares one way or the other.
more to come!
[URL=http://www.gofastvideo.com/gallery/getitem/129/1/aae.wmv]WRC 01[/URL]
right click save as
or double click ^ :banana:[/QUOTE]
Is this Pou's video?
[edit] Yep, it is Pou's video. You should maybe PM him and let him know you're hosting it, see if he cares one way or the other.
| fireball_jones | 09-23-2004 09:21 AM |
I got into rally when it was Makinen vs. McRae. I personally think short, tight, and fast are better than endurance. There are plenty of other endurances races out there, and in America we get NASCAR every weekend. If that's not enough endurance racing ...
My ideal rally would have an open class, a 2.0 class, and a 1.6 class. The track would be set-up so that the 1.6 got the shortest track with the most turns, and the open group got a long track with more straights, more for endurance. The 2.0 would still be the most flashy, with some good straight speed, but plenty of tight corners as well. The 1.6 and 2.0 would be set up so most every driver would finish, and repairs should be no more than current WRC, making it more of a race.
My ideal rally would have an open class, a 2.0 class, and a 1.6 class. The track would be set-up so that the 1.6 got the shortest track with the most turns, and the open group got a long track with more straights, more for endurance. The 2.0 would still be the most flashy, with some good straight speed, but plenty of tight corners as well. The 1.6 and 2.0 would be set up so most every driver would finish, and repairs should be no more than current WRC, making it more of a race.
| akmotorsports | 09-23-2004 12:26 PM |
...yet the point of rallying is to finish the decided upon stages in the least amount of time given the atmospheric and road conditions, no matter what they may be. In reality, you already have all of those classes, just that they don't televise it like the WRC. A8 = cream of the crop, N4, etc.
| fireball_jones | 09-23-2004 12:44 PM |
[QUOTE=akmotorsports]...yet the point of rallying is to finish the decided upon stages in the least amount of time given the atmospheric and road conditions, no matter what they may be. In reality, you already have all of those classes, just that they don't televise it like the WRC. A8 = cream of the crop, N4, etc.[/QUOTE]
True, but as of right now, all the classes race on the same course, correct?
True, but as of right now, all the classes race on the same course, correct?
| boricuajr | 09-23-2004 02:22 PM |
[QUOTE=Porter]Is this Pou's video?
[edit] Yep, it is Pou's video. You should maybe PM him and let him know you're hosting it, see if he cares one way or the other.[/QUOTE]
who's Pou???
I just found it on another forum that i go on and i thought i would share it with you guys? its also found on [url]www.gofastvideo.com[/url]......
i apologize for the incovinience if any (excuse the spelling) :confused: thanks
[edit] Yep, it is Pou's video. You should maybe PM him and let him know you're hosting it, see if he cares one way or the other.[/QUOTE]
who's Pou???
I just found it on another forum that i go on and i thought i would share it with you guys? its also found on [url]www.gofastvideo.com[/url]......
i apologize for the incovinience if any (excuse the spelling) :confused: thanks
| Porter | 09-23-2004 02:24 PM |
No problem, a member on this site (username Pou) made that video 2 years ago. He's from Canada, if you enquire on the Canadian regional forum someone there should be able to get in touch with him. Try PM'ing him first though. I'm sure he won't care that you're hosting it, you might want to list credit on the page to him though, like you did for the MustangMark guy.
Thanks! :)
Thanks! :)
| boricuajr | 09-23-2004 04:16 PM |
i didnt give credit to any of the creators, this was just a link that i found, and i copy/pasted, i did pm Pou, and am waiting for a response,
sorry to jack up the thread!
sorry to jack up the thread!
| kaitak98 | 09-26-2004 10:57 PM |
I got this very question asked on Wind Tunnel when Petter was on. I had just watched a Legends of Motorsport the night before that showed a rally from back in the Group B days (I forget which one but it there was snow and many Audi Quattros involved). It made today's WRC look tame.
Petter said that the whole world is changing and rallying is just an example of that. Safety was a big concern as is cost. But he said the rallying these days is very good, with some great stages, and that we have to keep a positive attitude.
BTW is anyone else getting tired of hearing about the costs of top level racing? The audience for F1 and WRC is huge. But the FIA can't seem to capitalize on this reach. Ford's withdrawal from F1 both as a constructor and engine supplier and their move to only a partial program in the WRC is as much a failure of the suits in Paris (and London) as the ones in Dearborn. Global consumer goods companies should be falling all over themselves to get into a sport that makes NASCAR look like a regional curiosity (which it is IMHO).
Tom
Petter said that the whole world is changing and rallying is just an example of that. Safety was a big concern as is cost. But he said the rallying these days is very good, with some great stages, and that we have to keep a positive attitude.
BTW is anyone else getting tired of hearing about the costs of top level racing? The audience for F1 and WRC is huge. But the FIA can't seem to capitalize on this reach. Ford's withdrawal from F1 both as a constructor and engine supplier and their move to only a partial program in the WRC is as much a failure of the suits in Paris (and London) as the ones in Dearborn. Global consumer goods companies should be falling all over themselves to get into a sport that makes NASCAR look like a regional curiosity (which it is IMHO).
Tom
| gtguy | 09-27-2004 03:01 PM |
[QUOTE=sunnynw]From Inmarsat's website: WRC is the largest spectator motorsport in the world. Not only does it attract 12 million people to its live events, but some 1 billion also follow WRC on television around the world. Broadcast to over 200 countries.
And we get 1.5 hours.... :huh:[/QUOTE]
France gets a 40-minute highlights show that comes on free TV at some ungodly hour. I stayed up until 2 a.m. local time (Pezenas) to watch Rally Japan highlights. Speed's coverage is excellent.
Kevin
And we get 1.5 hours.... :huh:[/QUOTE]
France gets a 40-minute highlights show that comes on free TV at some ungodly hour. I stayed up until 2 a.m. local time (Pezenas) to watch Rally Japan highlights. Speed's coverage is excellent.
Kevin
| TV3WRX | 09-28-2004 10:43 AM |
[QUOTE]BTW is anyone else getting tired of hearing about the costs of top level racing? The audience for F1 and WRC is huge. But the FIA can't seem to capitalize on this reach. Ford's withdrawal from F1 both as a constructor and engine supplier and their move to only a partial program in the WRC is as much a failure of the suits in Paris (and London) as the ones in Dearborn. Global consumer goods companies should be falling all over themselves to get into a sport that makes NASCAR look like a regional curiosity (which it is IMHO).[/QUOTE]
But the costs REALLY are way too high, not only in F1 and WRC, but in almost every top form of motorsports. Sponsors look for the return on the investment, and it's more and more a pretty tough sell. Look at it this way: If Ford or Jaguar spends say $100,000,000 per year on F1, at a net margin of say $1000 per car sold (not gross, NET), they have to sell 100,000 more cars than they would have sold without it, just to break even on it. But break even is a silly goal, really they'd want a return of say 150%, or 150,000 more cars sold. That's a hell of a lot of cars, bigger than some entire markets in smaller countries. If you are Jaguar, already losing tons of money, there is already a negative net per car, so unless you think the expense is going to turn around your brand single handledly, it's a silly thing to be in F1. For Ferrari it's different. Ferrari IS racing. They have to be there nomatter what. When they don't race, they don't sell cars. You'd think BMW would feel the same, but even they are questioning the cost of F1 vs. say touring car racing.
Looking at a consumer products company like say, HP, if they spend $50,000,00 a year on their F1 sponsorship, at $100 net margin per computer sale they have to sell 500,000 computers to break even. Sure, there are some companies who look at it as "buying brand exposure", or (HP may be one of them), but that theory of marketing is more or less on the wane. Nowadays, exposure means nothing if you cannot prove that you are converting the "exposure" into new direct sales at good margin. "1 billion TV viewers" doesnt really mean sales conversions.
The same math can be applied to WRC, etc.
The thing that bugs me personally with companies like Ford, is that they will pull out of F1 for expense reasons, but then still nickel and dime themselves to death on marketing expenses by doing stupid stuff like buying an expensive logo spot on Phil Mickelson's golf shirt, and countless other dumb moves. That kind of marketing does not sell cars. Smart for Nike, dumb for Ford. Really, Ford should spend money on new R&D and competitive car designs, and only then worry more about marketing, or F1 or WRC or whatever. In that sense I think what they are doing is the right move. That has been their failure in recent years. GM too.
But the costs REALLY are way too high, not only in F1 and WRC, but in almost every top form of motorsports. Sponsors look for the return on the investment, and it's more and more a pretty tough sell. Look at it this way: If Ford or Jaguar spends say $100,000,000 per year on F1, at a net margin of say $1000 per car sold (not gross, NET), they have to sell 100,000 more cars than they would have sold without it, just to break even on it. But break even is a silly goal, really they'd want a return of say 150%, or 150,000 more cars sold. That's a hell of a lot of cars, bigger than some entire markets in smaller countries. If you are Jaguar, already losing tons of money, there is already a negative net per car, so unless you think the expense is going to turn around your brand single handledly, it's a silly thing to be in F1. For Ferrari it's different. Ferrari IS racing. They have to be there nomatter what. When they don't race, they don't sell cars. You'd think BMW would feel the same, but even they are questioning the cost of F1 vs. say touring car racing.
Looking at a consumer products company like say, HP, if they spend $50,000,00 a year on their F1 sponsorship, at $100 net margin per computer sale they have to sell 500,000 computers to break even. Sure, there are some companies who look at it as "buying brand exposure", or (HP may be one of them), but that theory of marketing is more or less on the wane. Nowadays, exposure means nothing if you cannot prove that you are converting the "exposure" into new direct sales at good margin. "1 billion TV viewers" doesnt really mean sales conversions.
The same math can be applied to WRC, etc.
The thing that bugs me personally with companies like Ford, is that they will pull out of F1 for expense reasons, but then still nickel and dime themselves to death on marketing expenses by doing stupid stuff like buying an expensive logo spot on Phil Mickelson's golf shirt, and countless other dumb moves. That kind of marketing does not sell cars. Smart for Nike, dumb for Ford. Really, Ford should spend money on new R&D and competitive car designs, and only then worry more about marketing, or F1 or WRC or whatever. In that sense I think what they are doing is the right move. That has been their failure in recent years. GM too.
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