| mykrrrr | 07-03-2006 09:04 PM |
Jim Russell Race Car Mechanic School - Need opinions...
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Race car mechanic school @ the Jim Russell racing school in Sonoma CA.
[url]http://www.racecarmechanic.com[/url]
Has anyone taken this program? Know of anyone who's taken this program? If so, I've got a bunch of questions for you/them. :)
I love motorsports of all forms, love to tinker w/mechanical things and have the desire to learn the proper techniques of welding/fabrication and preparation/maintenance of race vehicles. I would love to combine my hobbies with my profession and do something I truely enjoy.
I'm considering taking a big leap and doing this program. I would essentially have to sell all my worldly posessions (which I don't mind except a few items...) quit my job (highly doubt they'd let me take a full year as a leave of absence) and move across the country to do it.
If anyone has opinions on this school or constructive criticism on this school...please post or email me.
[url]http://www.racecarmechanic.com[/url]
Has anyone taken this program? Know of anyone who's taken this program? If so, I've got a bunch of questions for you/them. :)
I love motorsports of all forms, love to tinker w/mechanical things and have the desire to learn the proper techniques of welding/fabrication and preparation/maintenance of race vehicles. I would love to combine my hobbies with my profession and do something I truely enjoy.
I'm considering taking a big leap and doing this program. I would essentially have to sell all my worldly posessions (which I don't mind except a few items...) quit my job (highly doubt they'd let me take a full year as a leave of absence) and move across the country to do it.
If anyone has opinions on this school or constructive criticism on this school...please post or email me.
| M | 07-04-2006 12:04 AM |
I highly reccomend against such a move. While they will try to sell you on many things I can tell you that from the inside these schools mean next to nothing. What real world experience do you have. What teams have you worked for, what wins do you have etc. That's what matters. I would reccomend finding a team in your area and begging them to let you volunteer. You can pm me and I can try to point you in the right directions. good luck
| timmyp | 07-04-2006 01:13 PM |
A coworker I know attended this school...as far as I know, it was his first experience on any type of car, much less race cars.
Sure I haven't done the program myself, but I wouldn't recommend the program. You could learn the same fabrication and welding techniques at a city college, and that would be far more beneficial. Plus, with night classes you could keep your job and all of your worldly possessions. Sure, you'd have hands on experience with race cars, but only their race cars, which doesn't mean much in the long run. You'd learn as much putting that money into a racecar of your own, assuming you did most of the work.
From what I understand of the program, basically you're paying for their racing courses and a set of snap-on tools, then you work for them for free for a while. You do get seat time, but mostly it just seems to be their way of getting cheap labor
Sure I haven't done the program myself, but I wouldn't recommend the program. You could learn the same fabrication and welding techniques at a city college, and that would be far more beneficial. Plus, with night classes you could keep your job and all of your worldly possessions. Sure, you'd have hands on experience with race cars, but only their race cars, which doesn't mean much in the long run. You'd learn as much putting that money into a racecar of your own, assuming you did most of the work.
From what I understand of the program, basically you're paying for their racing courses and a set of snap-on tools, then you work for them for free for a while. You do get seat time, but mostly it just seems to be their way of getting cheap labor
| GarySheehan | 07-04-2006 02:04 PM |
[QUOTE=mykrrrr]Race car mechanic school @ the Jim Russell racing school in Sonoma CA.
[url]http://www.racecarmechanic.com[/url]
Has anyone taken this program? Know of anyone who's taken this program? If so, I've got a bunch of questions for you/them. :)
I love motorsports of all forms, love to tinker w/mechanical things and have the desire to learn the proper techniques of welding/fabrication and preparation/maintenance of race vehicles. I would love to combine my hobbies with my profession and do something I truely enjoy.
I'm considering taking a big leap and doing this program. I would essentially have to sell all my worldly posessions (which I don't mind except a few items...) quit my job (highly doubt they'd let me take a full year as a leave of absence) and move across the country to do it.
If anyone has opinions on this school or constructive criticism on this school...please post or email me.[/QUOTE]
Paul Dana started in the Bridgestone Racing School Mechanics Program. That's where we first met.
From his humble start as a school mechanic, he worked his way up to land a ride this year with Bobby Rahal's team in the Indy Racing League with Buddy Rice and Danica Patrick as his teammates. His fatal crash at Homestead robbed him of showing off his true talent to the world. However, he did make it to the bigtime!
Mechanics school can be a great introduction to the rigors of racing. It will be an adventure of brutally hard work for you, but you will learn quite a lot, and if you keep your eyes and ears open, you can work it to get where you want to be.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
[url]http://www.racecarmechanic.com[/url]
Has anyone taken this program? Know of anyone who's taken this program? If so, I've got a bunch of questions for you/them. :)
I love motorsports of all forms, love to tinker w/mechanical things and have the desire to learn the proper techniques of welding/fabrication and preparation/maintenance of race vehicles. I would love to combine my hobbies with my profession and do something I truely enjoy.
I'm considering taking a big leap and doing this program. I would essentially have to sell all my worldly posessions (which I don't mind except a few items...) quit my job (highly doubt they'd let me take a full year as a leave of absence) and move across the country to do it.
If anyone has opinions on this school or constructive criticism on this school...please post or email me.[/QUOTE]
Paul Dana started in the Bridgestone Racing School Mechanics Program. That's where we first met.
From his humble start as a school mechanic, he worked his way up to land a ride this year with Bobby Rahal's team in the Indy Racing League with Buddy Rice and Danica Patrick as his teammates. His fatal crash at Homestead robbed him of showing off his true talent to the world. However, he did make it to the bigtime!
Mechanics school can be a great introduction to the rigors of racing. It will be an adventure of brutally hard work for you, but you will learn quite a lot, and if you keep your eyes and ears open, you can work it to get where you want to be.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| spazegun2213 | 07-04-2006 02:08 PM |
[QUOTE=mykrrrr]Race car mechanic school @ the Jim Russell racing school in Sonoma CA.
[url]http://www.racecarmechanic.com[/url]
Has anyone taken this program? Know of anyone who's taken this program? If so, I've got a bunch of questions for you/them. :)
I love motorsports of all forms, love to tinker w/mechanical things and have the desire to learn the proper techniques of welding/fabrication and preparation/maintenance of race vehicles. I would love to combine my hobbies with my profession and do something I truely enjoy.
I'm considering taking a big leap and doing this program. I would essentially have to sell all my worldly posessions (which I don't mind except a few items...) quit my job (highly doubt they'd let me take a full year as a leave of absence) and move across the country to do it.
If anyone has opinions on this school or constructive criticism on this school...please post or email me.[/QUOTE]
Honestly it sounds REALLY cool! something that would appeal to me (if i were not already employed). First, you need to REALLY want to change your life like this. Moving across the country, selling everything you own, stuff like that is not small time.
If you think of it as education then you can get a loan for something like this. Loans for education are fairly inexpensive (trust me I'm paying mine off). However, this is only one year I have to wonder how much of your life will depend on this. However, its a start!! and you have to remember, if you really want something, you cant be afraid to setp out on a limb to try to get there.
I know several Grand am teams, are really just volenteers from all over. As long as you can wrench on a car, and take orders you can be part of a grand am crew. If you want, try to find a racing team in your area, and see if you can offer some help. This will get you started in the right direction.
Still, if this is something that you REALLY want to do, i say why not? I mean it is education, and this added to your resume may get you on to a team, or into a shop. If you are willing to everything in your power to work for an good team, then this can be your start.
Good luck with whatever you decide!
[url]http://www.racecarmechanic.com[/url]
Has anyone taken this program? Know of anyone who's taken this program? If so, I've got a bunch of questions for you/them. :)
I love motorsports of all forms, love to tinker w/mechanical things and have the desire to learn the proper techniques of welding/fabrication and preparation/maintenance of race vehicles. I would love to combine my hobbies with my profession and do something I truely enjoy.
I'm considering taking a big leap and doing this program. I would essentially have to sell all my worldly posessions (which I don't mind except a few items...) quit my job (highly doubt they'd let me take a full year as a leave of absence) and move across the country to do it.
If anyone has opinions on this school or constructive criticism on this school...please post or email me.[/QUOTE]
Honestly it sounds REALLY cool! something that would appeal to me (if i were not already employed). First, you need to REALLY want to change your life like this. Moving across the country, selling everything you own, stuff like that is not small time.
If you think of it as education then you can get a loan for something like this. Loans for education are fairly inexpensive (trust me I'm paying mine off). However, this is only one year I have to wonder how much of your life will depend on this. However, its a start!! and you have to remember, if you really want something, you cant be afraid to setp out on a limb to try to get there.
I know several Grand am teams, are really just volenteers from all over. As long as you can wrench on a car, and take orders you can be part of a grand am crew. If you want, try to find a racing team in your area, and see if you can offer some help. This will get you started in the right direction.
Still, if this is something that you REALLY want to do, i say why not? I mean it is education, and this added to your resume may get you on to a team, or into a shop. If you are willing to everything in your power to work for an good team, then this can be your start.
Good luck with whatever you decide!
| MPME | 07-05-2006 12:48 AM |
[QUOTE=mykrrrr]Race car mechanic school @ the Jim Russell racing school in Sonoma CA.
[url]http://www.racecarmechanic.com[/url]
Has anyone taken this program? Know of anyone who's taken this program? If so, I've got a bunch of questions for you/them. :)
I love motorsports of all forms, love to tinker w/mechanical things and have the desire to learn the proper techniques of welding/fabrication and preparation/maintenance of race vehicles. I would love to combine my hobbies with my profession and do something I truely enjoy.
I'm considering taking a big leap and doing this program. I would essentially have to sell all my worldly posessions (which I don't mind except a few items...) quit my job (highly doubt they'd let me take a full year as a leave of absence) and move across the country to do it.
If anyone has opinions on this school or constructive criticism on this school...please post or email me.[/QUOTE]
It's perfect if you want a career as a racing professional, but starting out as a mechanic. The rate of hiring from the Russell MTP program is pretty high--lots of Formula Mazda, Atlantic, World Challenge, and GrandAm teams hire people straight from the program.
Costs here in Norcal are no joke, though, so make sure you have a pretty solid savings in place first. Most of the students end up rooming together and sharing costs, so it isn't too bad, but be aware...
If you have other questions, email Rob Klyver, MTP program director. Very cool guy who has helped me source a ton of mechanics whenever I need them: Rob Klyver <rklyver at jimrussellusa.com>
Spending your days hanging at Sears Point can't be beat, BTW...I did it from '89-'91 and look back at my days forking for that team/shop with great fondness.
[url]http://www.racecarmechanic.com[/url]
Has anyone taken this program? Know of anyone who's taken this program? If so, I've got a bunch of questions for you/them. :)
I love motorsports of all forms, love to tinker w/mechanical things and have the desire to learn the proper techniques of welding/fabrication and preparation/maintenance of race vehicles. I would love to combine my hobbies with my profession and do something I truely enjoy.
I'm considering taking a big leap and doing this program. I would essentially have to sell all my worldly posessions (which I don't mind except a few items...) quit my job (highly doubt they'd let me take a full year as a leave of absence) and move across the country to do it.
If anyone has opinions on this school or constructive criticism on this school...please post or email me.[/QUOTE]
It's perfect if you want a career as a racing professional, but starting out as a mechanic. The rate of hiring from the Russell MTP program is pretty high--lots of Formula Mazda, Atlantic, World Challenge, and GrandAm teams hire people straight from the program.
Costs here in Norcal are no joke, though, so make sure you have a pretty solid savings in place first. Most of the students end up rooming together and sharing costs, so it isn't too bad, but be aware...
If you have other questions, email Rob Klyver, MTP program director. Very cool guy who has helped me source a ton of mechanics whenever I need them: Rob Klyver <rklyver at jimrussellusa.com>
Spending your days hanging at Sears Point can't be beat, BTW...I did it from '89-'91 and look back at my days forking for that team/shop with great fondness.
| Paisan | 07-05-2006 12:56 AM |
Man, this thread is killing me. I'm at a point in my career where I am about to make a change, hate my job and am looking for something to do that has to do with my hobby. If I were a bit younger I'd probably jump on this and go for it myself. :( As people have said above, if you really want something sometimes you have to go out on a limb and chance it. For me, currently I am planning on giving up my nice wall street job to go back to working at the electric company in NJ at a little more than 1/2 my salary not including my bonus. But for me it's something that I feel in the long run will be better for me, even if it's a sacrafice in the short run.
-mike
-mike
| mykrrrr | 07-05-2006 07:49 AM |
Thanks for the comments...especially the positive ones. I do like the fact that teams hire straight out of school.
I'm no spring chicken (I'm 33) but I'm just bored with my current career and would love to wake up everyday to new challenges and adventures.
I worked for Autosport Engineering for a few months as a shop grunt and went to PPIHC with them as service crew so I'm not unfamiliar with long hours and hard work.
Even if I didn't get a job with a team travelling around the country I'd be super stoked to work with race cars and stuff I love.
I was also considering the Bridgestone academy in Toronto because it's 4 hrs from home but it's a bit more $$$ wise but that might even out with the COL in NorCal...I'd rather live in NorCal though..that's another dream of mine. :)
Anyhoo...keep the comments flowing.
Thx
I'm no spring chicken (I'm 33) but I'm just bored with my current career and would love to wake up everyday to new challenges and adventures.
I worked for Autosport Engineering for a few months as a shop grunt and went to PPIHC with them as service crew so I'm not unfamiliar with long hours and hard work.
Even if I didn't get a job with a team travelling around the country I'd be super stoked to work with race cars and stuff I love.
I was also considering the Bridgestone academy in Toronto because it's 4 hrs from home but it's a bit more $$$ wise but that might even out with the COL in NorCal...I'd rather live in NorCal though..that's another dream of mine. :)
Anyhoo...keep the comments flowing.
Thx
| spazegun2213 | 07-05-2006 07:57 AM |
[QUOTE=mykrrrr]
I was also considering the Bridgestone academy in Toronto because it's 4 hrs from home but it's a bit more $$$ wise but that might even out with the COL in NorCal...I'd rather live in NorCal though..that's another dream of mine. :)
[/QUOTE]
you may want to look at all the "competeing" schools to see which one is better. even if one school is more expensive, you need to remember the cost of living for that year. In canada, would you need a student visa for the year? Vs, in NorCal the higher prices, and 91 gas?
you need to consiter all these things, that and do you really want to be close to "home." If you do get hired right out of school, you might not see home again (only on vacation/holidays).
email everyone you can, ask questions on everyforum you can, ask your friends, read up on the schools. Bottom line is do your homework, setup up a budget, and see if this is going to work for you.
Good luck!
I was also considering the Bridgestone academy in Toronto because it's 4 hrs from home but it's a bit more $$$ wise but that might even out with the COL in NorCal...I'd rather live in NorCal though..that's another dream of mine. :)
[/QUOTE]
you may want to look at all the "competeing" schools to see which one is better. even if one school is more expensive, you need to remember the cost of living for that year. In canada, would you need a student visa for the year? Vs, in NorCal the higher prices, and 91 gas?
you need to consiter all these things, that and do you really want to be close to "home." If you do get hired right out of school, you might not see home again (only on vacation/holidays).
email everyone you can, ask questions on everyforum you can, ask your friends, read up on the schools. Bottom line is do your homework, setup up a budget, and see if this is going to work for you.
Good luck!
| mykrrrr | 07-05-2006 09:48 AM |
[QUOTE=spazegun2213]you may want to look at all the "competeing" schools to see which one is better. even if one school is more expensive, you need to remember the cost of living for that year. In canada, would you need a student visa for the year? Vs, in NorCal the higher prices, and 91 gas?
you need to consiter all these things, that and do you really want to be close to "home." If you do get hired right out of school, you might not see home again (only on vacation/holidays).
email everyone you can, ask questions on everyforum you can, ask your friends, read up on the schools. Bottom line is do your homework, setup up a budget, and see if this is going to work for you.
Good luck![/QUOTE]
Yeah I'm weighing out all the options...homework sucks. :p :lol:
The only other school I can see that's comparable is the Bridgestone academy. Know of others???
I think you'll need a student visa but that shouldn't be hard to get. The school is a bit shorter as well. Mar 1 to Oct 31.
Home is good but I'd rather be in Toronto or NorCal or someplace else.
you need to consiter all these things, that and do you really want to be close to "home." If you do get hired right out of school, you might not see home again (only on vacation/holidays).
email everyone you can, ask questions on everyforum you can, ask your friends, read up on the schools. Bottom line is do your homework, setup up a budget, and see if this is going to work for you.
Good luck![/QUOTE]
Yeah I'm weighing out all the options...homework sucks. :p :lol:
The only other school I can see that's comparable is the Bridgestone academy. Know of others???
I think you'll need a student visa but that shouldn't be hard to get. The school is a bit shorter as well. Mar 1 to Oct 31.
Home is good but I'd rather be in Toronto or NorCal or someplace else.
| GarySheehan | 07-05-2006 12:45 PM |
[QUOTE=mykrrrr]I was also considering the Bridgestone academy in Toronto because it's 4 hrs from home but it's a bit more $$$ wise[/QUOTE]
Coincidentally, that's where I started racing school and Paul Dana started mechanic school. Give them a call and talk to Brett Goodman about their program. Tell him I said hello.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
Coincidentally, that's where I started racing school and Paul Dana started mechanic school. Give them a call and talk to Brett Goodman about their program. Tell him I said hello.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| mykrrrr | 07-05-2006 01:21 PM |
Will you guys hire me when I graduate Gary??? :D
| spazegun2213 | 07-05-2006 01:43 PM |
[QUOTE=mykrrrr]Will you guys hire me when I graduate Gary??? :D[/QUOTE]
hell if they do, want to make that two people? ;)
hell if they do, want to make that two people? ;)
| MPME | 07-05-2006 03:53 PM |
[QUOTE=spazegun2213]hell if they do, want to make that two people? ;)[/QUOTE]
As soon as we find $ to begin paying ourselves, you two are next on the list... :p
As soon as we find $ to begin paying ourselves, you two are next on the list... :p
| spazegun2213 | 07-05-2006 04:15 PM |
[QUOTE=MPME]As soon as we find $ to begin paying ourselves, you two are next on the list... :p[/QUOTE]
what, did you all forget to start with a LARGE fortune before racing ;)
haha, just keep up the good work!!!
what, did you all forget to start with a LARGE fortune before racing ;)
haha, just keep up the good work!!!
| TCE | 07-05-2006 04:42 PM |
I not only 'took' it back in 1985, I went on to work there for five years, managed and taught it.
Since that time the program has changed quite a lot. "Back in the day" the program was more about trading seat time for labor. That changed some when we began to attain some college credits locally in Monterey (yes I know they are at Sears...err...Infinion today) and we were forced to better organize and test students.
Today it's many steps above even that from what I understand. Gone however are the fun days of slave labor hours 7-7 for ten free weekends of racing.... The program now also helps with placement far better than we did 20 years ago.
However, there's always a catch. Coming out of that program does not insure one of a team position that is really much, much higher than those willing to put in the sweat and hours of a good team player. I've interviewed some of their grads in the past few years and there is a bit of an over optimistic outlook. "I've completed this one year program and I wan to be your IRL engineer. And I need $65K to start" What they seem to fail to realize is that like drivers they are a dime a dozen for starting positions.
Those who accept that they are not going to be the next crew chief for Roger, go on to work for teams for a number of years before they hit it big. There will never be a sub for experience.
What the program DOES offer is a highly accelerated proram and learning enviroment that you will NOT get hanging out at the local track. It can be grueling, timely and fun all at one time. You will get out of it only what you put in and that goes on to be the same later in life also.
Since that time the program has changed quite a lot. "Back in the day" the program was more about trading seat time for labor. That changed some when we began to attain some college credits locally in Monterey (yes I know they are at Sears...err...Infinion today) and we were forced to better organize and test students.
Today it's many steps above even that from what I understand. Gone however are the fun days of slave labor hours 7-7 for ten free weekends of racing.... The program now also helps with placement far better than we did 20 years ago.
However, there's always a catch. Coming out of that program does not insure one of a team position that is really much, much higher than those willing to put in the sweat and hours of a good team player. I've interviewed some of their grads in the past few years and there is a bit of an over optimistic outlook. "I've completed this one year program and I wan to be your IRL engineer. And I need $65K to start" What they seem to fail to realize is that like drivers they are a dime a dozen for starting positions.
Those who accept that they are not going to be the next crew chief for Roger, go on to work for teams for a number of years before they hit it big. There will never be a sub for experience.
What the program DOES offer is a highly accelerated proram and learning enviroment that you will NOT get hanging out at the local track. It can be grueling, timely and fun all at one time. You will get out of it only what you put in and that goes on to be the same later in life also.
| Paisan | 07-05-2006 08:35 PM |
Anyone have links to the school in toronto and pricing? I'd be curious as I'm at a crossroads in my job status too. Also those who are more knowledgeable than I am in this (Gary, etc.) how does one get into the management side of things v. mechanical side of things. I am a great organizer, leader, etc, and would be interested in some kind of managment side of a race team. Thanks in advance and sorry for the hijack.
-mike
-mike
| mykrrrr | 07-05-2006 09:10 PM |
[QUOTE=TCE]I not only 'took' it back in 1985, I went on to work there for five years, managed and taught it.
Since that time the program has changed quite a lot. "Back in the day" the program was more about trading seat time for labor. That changed some when we began to attain some college credits locally in Monterey (yes I know they are at Sears...err...Infinion today) and we were forced to better organize and test students.
Today it's many steps above even that from what I understand. Gone however are the fun days of slave labor hours 7-7 for ten free weekends of racing.... The program now also helps with placement far better than we did 20 years ago.
However, there's always a catch. Coming out of that program does not insure one of a team position that is really much, much higher than those willing to put in the sweat and hours of a good team player. I've interviewed some of their grads in the past few years and there is a bit of an over optimistic outlook. "I've completed this one year program and I wan to be your IRL engineer. And I need $65K to start" What they seem to fail to realize is that like drivers they are a dime a dozen for starting positions.
Those who accept that they are not going to be the next crew chief for Roger, go on to work for teams for a number of years before they hit it big. There will never be a sub for experience.
What the program DOES offer is a highly accelerated proram and learning enviroment that you will NOT get hanging out at the local track. It can be grueling, timely and fun all at one time. You will get out of it only what you put in and that goes on to be the same later in life also.[/QUOTE]
Well put TCE.
It's absurd that someone (almost dilusional...like all these kids being raised on the MTV Laguna Beach "I deserve it...just because" generation) would try and command a big salary after one year of training.
I'm not a money driven person. I want to earn a comfortable living where I can have the essentials and have some money to go play (racing, going on holiday, go to dinner/social events w/friends) and not live paycheck to paycheck putting everything on a credit card. I realize the first couple years will be ramen and mac n cheese...not cristal (is that cool still?) and caviar. I prefer ramen and m&c anyway. :lol:
One thing I [b]don't[/b] want to do is to toil around on my own for multiple years trying to learn everything that a program like this teaches. It's not effiecent enough for my tastes. This is why programs like this appeal to me. :)
Thx again for some great comments TCE and everyone else!!! :)
Paisan - [url]http://www.race2000.com/courses/bycontent/mtp.html[/url] <<< Bridgestone academy.
Also...no worries about the "hijack" it's not a hijack really. Management of teams is a very important thing. I'd say through a combination of these programs and your skills, you might be able to successfully do that.
I have a background in logistics and material handling going on eight plus years of experience. I'd like to use my knowledge of these fields and my education of what it takes to be on a race team to further my career. I say build on your strengths while learning something new...that's what I'm trying to do. :D
Maybe we'll be classmates. :) I'm planning of hopefully attending either school in '07 (Mar for Bridgestone/Jun for JR MTP.) I'm already planning on going out to JR in Dec w/my Dad to check it out....awesome excuse to escape the midwest when it's getting cold, spend some much needed time w/my Dad and see my cousins as well. :D
Since that time the program has changed quite a lot. "Back in the day" the program was more about trading seat time for labor. That changed some when we began to attain some college credits locally in Monterey (yes I know they are at Sears...err...Infinion today) and we were forced to better organize and test students.
Today it's many steps above even that from what I understand. Gone however are the fun days of slave labor hours 7-7 for ten free weekends of racing.... The program now also helps with placement far better than we did 20 years ago.
However, there's always a catch. Coming out of that program does not insure one of a team position that is really much, much higher than those willing to put in the sweat and hours of a good team player. I've interviewed some of their grads in the past few years and there is a bit of an over optimistic outlook. "I've completed this one year program and I wan to be your IRL engineer. And I need $65K to start" What they seem to fail to realize is that like drivers they are a dime a dozen for starting positions.
Those who accept that they are not going to be the next crew chief for Roger, go on to work for teams for a number of years before they hit it big. There will never be a sub for experience.
What the program DOES offer is a highly accelerated proram and learning enviroment that you will NOT get hanging out at the local track. It can be grueling, timely and fun all at one time. You will get out of it only what you put in and that goes on to be the same later in life also.[/QUOTE]
Well put TCE.
It's absurd that someone (almost dilusional...like all these kids being raised on the MTV Laguna Beach "I deserve it...just because" generation) would try and command a big salary after one year of training.
I'm not a money driven person. I want to earn a comfortable living where I can have the essentials and have some money to go play (racing, going on holiday, go to dinner/social events w/friends) and not live paycheck to paycheck putting everything on a credit card. I realize the first couple years will be ramen and mac n cheese...not cristal (is that cool still?) and caviar. I prefer ramen and m&c anyway. :lol:
One thing I [b]don't[/b] want to do is to toil around on my own for multiple years trying to learn everything that a program like this teaches. It's not effiecent enough for my tastes. This is why programs like this appeal to me. :)
Thx again for some great comments TCE and everyone else!!! :)
Paisan - [url]http://www.race2000.com/courses/bycontent/mtp.html[/url] <<< Bridgestone academy.
Also...no worries about the "hijack" it's not a hijack really. Management of teams is a very important thing. I'd say through a combination of these programs and your skills, you might be able to successfully do that.
I have a background in logistics and material handling going on eight plus years of experience. I'd like to use my knowledge of these fields and my education of what it takes to be on a race team to further my career. I say build on your strengths while learning something new...that's what I'm trying to do. :D
Maybe we'll be classmates. :) I'm planning of hopefully attending either school in '07 (Mar for Bridgestone/Jun for JR MTP.) I'm already planning on going out to JR in Dec w/my Dad to check it out....awesome excuse to escape the midwest when it's getting cold, spend some much needed time w/my Dad and see my cousins as well. :D
| chadblock | 07-05-2006 09:21 PM |
i can tell u right now, that area is one of the HIGHEST cost of living anywhere..
i know many mechanics from that school... if u want a job as a race mechanic its great, the cars are kind of old, and not very advanced, but you learn the idea of "proper prep" and you get some driving time.
Memo Gidley graduated from the school, and obviously went onto great things!!
cb
i know many mechanics from that school... if u want a job as a race mechanic its great, the cars are kind of old, and not very advanced, but you learn the idea of "proper prep" and you get some driving time.
Memo Gidley graduated from the school, and obviously went onto great things!!
cb
| Paisan | 07-05-2006 09:24 PM |
[QUOTE=mykrrrr]Well put TCE.
It's absurd that someone (almost dilusional...like all these kids being raised on the MTV Laguna Beach "I deserve it...just because" generation) would try and command a big salary after one year of training.
I'm not a money driven person. I want to earn a comfortable living where I can have the essentials and have some money to go play (racing, going on holiday, go to dinner/social events w/friends) and not live paycheck to paycheck putting everything on a credit card. I realize the first couple years will be ramen and mac n cheese...not cristal (is that cool still?) and caviar. I prefer ramen and m&c anyway. :lol:
One thing I [b]don't[/b] want to do is to toil around on my own for multiple years trying to learn everything that a program like this teaches. It's not effiecent enough for my tastes. This is why programs like this appeal to me. :)
Thx again for some great comments TCE and everyone else!!! :)
Paisan - [url]http://www.race2000.com/courses/bycontent/mtp.html[/url] <<< Bridgestone academy.
Also...no worries about the "hijack" it's not a hijack really. Management of teams is a very important thing. I'd say through a combination of these programs and your skills, you might be able to successfully do that.
I have a background in logistics and material handling going on eight plus years of experience. I'd like to use my knowledge of these fields and my education of what it takes to be on a race team to further my career. I say build on your strengths while learning something new...that's what I'm trying to do. :D
Maybe we'll be classmates. :) I'm planning of hopefully attending either school in '07 (Mar for Bridgestone/Jun for JR MTP.) I'm already planning on going out to JR in Dec w/my Dad to check it out....awesome excuse to escape the midwest when it's getting cold, spend some much needed time w/my Dad and see my cousins as well. :D[/QUOTE]
Cool cool. Yeah I'm pretty diverse as far as what i've done. Computer support, commodity trading, run AZP Installs, Track Instruction, and general organizer for Team IAC which is our local group of HPDE/Autox/Road racers here in NJ. Currently the commodity trading is killing me and I hate it :( I'm gonna go check out that school now!
-mike
It's absurd that someone (almost dilusional...like all these kids being raised on the MTV Laguna Beach "I deserve it...just because" generation) would try and command a big salary after one year of training.
I'm not a money driven person. I want to earn a comfortable living where I can have the essentials and have some money to go play (racing, going on holiday, go to dinner/social events w/friends) and not live paycheck to paycheck putting everything on a credit card. I realize the first couple years will be ramen and mac n cheese...not cristal (is that cool still?) and caviar. I prefer ramen and m&c anyway. :lol:
One thing I [b]don't[/b] want to do is to toil around on my own for multiple years trying to learn everything that a program like this teaches. It's not effiecent enough for my tastes. This is why programs like this appeal to me. :)
Thx again for some great comments TCE and everyone else!!! :)
Paisan - [url]http://www.race2000.com/courses/bycontent/mtp.html[/url] <<< Bridgestone academy.
Also...no worries about the "hijack" it's not a hijack really. Management of teams is a very important thing. I'd say through a combination of these programs and your skills, you might be able to successfully do that.
I have a background in logistics and material handling going on eight plus years of experience. I'd like to use my knowledge of these fields and my education of what it takes to be on a race team to further my career. I say build on your strengths while learning something new...that's what I'm trying to do. :D
Maybe we'll be classmates. :) I'm planning of hopefully attending either school in '07 (Mar for Bridgestone/Jun for JR MTP.) I'm already planning on going out to JR in Dec w/my Dad to check it out....awesome excuse to escape the midwest when it's getting cold, spend some much needed time w/my Dad and see my cousins as well. :D[/QUOTE]
Cool cool. Yeah I'm pretty diverse as far as what i've done. Computer support, commodity trading, run AZP Installs, Track Instruction, and general organizer for Team IAC which is our local group of HPDE/Autox/Road racers here in NJ. Currently the commodity trading is killing me and I hate it :( I'm gonna go check out that school now!
-mike
| mykrrrr | 07-05-2006 09:25 PM |
[QUOTE=chadblock]i can tell u right now, that area is one of the HIGHEST cost of living anywhere..
i know many mechanics from that school... if u want a job as a race mechanic its great, the cars are kind of old, and not very advanced, but you learn the idea of "proper prep" and you get some driving time.
Memo Gidley graduated from the school, and obviously went onto great things!!
cb[/QUOTE]
Since you know some mechanics from that school could you get some email contacts for them so I could talk to them about their experiences??? I really need to network w/present & past students so I can get good feedback.
i know many mechanics from that school... if u want a job as a race mechanic its great, the cars are kind of old, and not very advanced, but you learn the idea of "proper prep" and you get some driving time.
Memo Gidley graduated from the school, and obviously went onto great things!!
cb[/QUOTE]
Since you know some mechanics from that school could you get some email contacts for them so I could talk to them about their experiences??? I really need to network w/present & past students so I can get good feedback.
| Paisan | 07-05-2006 09:40 PM |
Seems like the bridgestone course is only about $1000 for 8 months? That seems pretty low IMHO. It starts March 1 of next year, very interesting especially because I get my big ass bonus next year March 1..... Could take the money and live on it and do that course, very interesting, I'd also need to go on a diet as their requirement is 220lbs and I'm a bit more than that. :(
-mike
-mike
| mykrrrr | 07-05-2006 09:44 PM |
[QUOTE=Paisan]Seems like the bridgestone course is only about $1000 for 8 months? That seems pretty low IMHO. It starts March 1 of next year, very interesting especially because I get my big ass bonus next year March 1..... Could take the money and live on it and do that course, very interesting, I'd also need to go on a diet as their requirement is 220lbs and I'm a bit more than that. :(
-mike[/QUOTE]
[quote=Bridgestone academy]The tuition fee is only $1190 CDN for any period and includes a Karbon Sportswear uniform worth $800 (breathable / rain & wind shell with rain & wind pants / 6 breathable - wicking tech shirts & a nice ball cap). [b]Personal expenses will add about $700 CDN per month excluding apartment rent.[/b] Canadian Immigration Laws have special rules to assist with student visas.[/quote]
You will also need to supply your own tools. The JR school supplies tools, uniforms and enrolls you in the driving courses.
I'm assuming the extra ~$700 CDN/month is for the schools and stuff like that.
Don't forget to add your crash deposit as well.
-mike[/QUOTE]
[quote=Bridgestone academy]The tuition fee is only $1190 CDN for any period and includes a Karbon Sportswear uniform worth $800 (breathable / rain & wind shell with rain & wind pants / 6 breathable - wicking tech shirts & a nice ball cap). [b]Personal expenses will add about $700 CDN per month excluding apartment rent.[/b] Canadian Immigration Laws have special rules to assist with student visas.[/quote]
You will also need to supply your own tools. The JR school supplies tools, uniforms and enrolls you in the driving courses.
I'm assuming the extra ~$700 CDN/month is for the schools and stuff like that.
Don't forget to add your crash deposit as well.
| Paisan | 07-05-2006 10:14 PM |
[QUOTE=mykrrrr]You will also need to supply your own tools. The JR school supplies tools, uniforms and enrolls you in the driving courses.
I'm assuming the extra ~$700 CDN/month is for the schools and stuff like that.
Don't forget to add your crash deposit as well.[/QUOTE]
True true. Adding it up looks like about 10-15k en total for the whole 8 months with living expenses etc. Then add in any car payments, health insurance, etc....
-mike
I'm assuming the extra ~$700 CDN/month is for the schools and stuff like that.
Don't forget to add your crash deposit as well.[/QUOTE]
True true. Adding it up looks like about 10-15k en total for the whole 8 months with living expenses etc. Then add in any car payments, health insurance, etc....
-mike
| TCE | 07-05-2006 10:15 PM |
Chad knows not only me, but some of the other grads from years gone by. Some of them my "students" actually! lol
Few of them will visit the board here to share insight but give you some thoughts via email. Problem is that guys much later than perhaps 1995 will be more in tune with the issues at Sonoma than we will be. You'll really want to speak with grads from the past five years.
I'd suggest a call and time with the guys working for Worldspeed Mtspt. for exmaple. I know a few of them and being local they keep a keen eye on the guys working there. Call up and speak with Telo about the program. Former grad and now team owner he knows the ins and outs better today. Tell 'em Todd said hi.
Few of them will visit the board here to share insight but give you some thoughts via email. Problem is that guys much later than perhaps 1995 will be more in tune with the issues at Sonoma than we will be. You'll really want to speak with grads from the past five years.
I'd suggest a call and time with the guys working for Worldspeed Mtspt. for exmaple. I know a few of them and being local they keep a keen eye on the guys working there. Call up and speak with Telo about the program. Former grad and now team owner he knows the ins and outs better today. Tell 'em Todd said hi.
| mykrrrr | 07-05-2006 10:29 PM |
[QUOTE=Paisan]True true. Adding it up looks like about 10-15k en total for the whole 8 months with living expenses etc. Then add in any car payments, health insurance, etc....
-mike[/QUOTE]
yup...this is why I'm probably gonna be liquidating most everything I own so I can save $$$.
TCE - Where is Worldspeed Motorsports? Got an email or tele # for them?
What "issues" in Sonoma??? Over run w/ryce boi gangs??? :lol:
-mike[/QUOTE]
yup...this is why I'm probably gonna be liquidating most everything I own so I can save $$$.
TCE - Where is Worldspeed Motorsports? Got an email or tele # for them?
What "issues" in Sonoma??? Over run w/ryce boi gangs??? :lol:
| bjorn240 | 07-05-2006 11:39 PM |
[QUOTE=mykrrrr]I have a background in logistics and material handling going on eight plus years of experience. I'd like to use my knowledge of these fields and my education of what it takes to be on a race team to further my career. I say build on your strengths while learning something new...that's what I'm trying to do. :D[/QUOTE]
Not to dash your dream of being a race team technician, but if you have a background in logistics, I think you should apply to be a logistics guy for a team. I bet with some blood, sweat, tears, and connections, you can land yourself a job as the assistant logistics guy at some Craftsman Truck team. Say what you will about NASCAR, when it comes to dragging stuff around the country all the time to go racing, they excel at it.
I used to think the dream job would be to do logistics at the WRC level (until I realized my dream job might be what I do now), but I think NASCAR would be great, too. And I think you could leverage your existing knowledge very well. Some of the most talented people I've worked with in motorsport have worked in logistics, coordination, and team management. They truly are the unsung heroes, but the drivers know what's what.
Of course, if you want to spin spanners, specifically, this isn't a great idea, but if you're looking at a career in motorsports, co-driver --> logistics coordinator --> WRC principal has been done a number of times. Dave Richards, Jean Todt, Luis Moya, to name a few. I can think of worse things to aspire to. Of course, Ove Andersson started out as a driver, but one might assume that Todt rubbed off on him?
- Christian
Not to dash your dream of being a race team technician, but if you have a background in logistics, I think you should apply to be a logistics guy for a team. I bet with some blood, sweat, tears, and connections, you can land yourself a job as the assistant logistics guy at some Craftsman Truck team. Say what you will about NASCAR, when it comes to dragging stuff around the country all the time to go racing, they excel at it.
I used to think the dream job would be to do logistics at the WRC level (until I realized my dream job might be what I do now), but I think NASCAR would be great, too. And I think you could leverage your existing knowledge very well. Some of the most talented people I've worked with in motorsport have worked in logistics, coordination, and team management. They truly are the unsung heroes, but the drivers know what's what.
Of course, if you want to spin spanners, specifically, this isn't a great idea, but if you're looking at a career in motorsports, co-driver --> logistics coordinator --> WRC principal has been done a number of times. Dave Richards, Jean Todt, Luis Moya, to name a few. I can think of worse things to aspire to. Of course, Ove Andersson started out as a driver, but one might assume that Todt rubbed off on him?
- Christian
| WRX_orlando | 07-06-2006 12:23 PM |
Before changing your entire life I would suggest hooking up with a team near you who competes and travels a bit. preferably a smaller team trying to step up a level, they'd jump at the chance to tug along a volunteer who has a little experience to a few races, prove you know what you're doing and your involvement will grow, and you'll learn quite a bit at the same time. After a season or two you'll already have the beginnings of a resume and then might want to get a "diploma" to back it up, then you should be sitting in a good position to get on with a slightly bigger team, and start moving your way up. Networking is invaluable in motorsports, who you know is just as important as what you know; so volunteering and getting to know the other guys/teams at the tracks is a great first step, and all it costs is time (vaction time, holidays, etc.) Also you'll have a better understanding of what's going on once you do attend a school, be at the top of the class, and be more sought after by whoever is looking to hire from the school. Good luck in your decision!! thats just my 2 cents.
| JC_595 | 07-06-2006 01:02 PM |
[QUOTE=bjorn240]Not to dash your dream of being a race team technician, but if you have a background in logistics, I think you should apply to be a logistics guy for a team. I bet with some blood, sweat, tears, and connections, you can land yourself a job as the assistant logistics guy at some Craftsman Truck team. Say what you will about NASCAR, when it comes to dragging stuff around the country all the time to go racing, they excel at it.
I used to think the dream job would be to do logistics at the WRC level (until I realized my dream job might be what I do now), but I think NASCAR would be great, too. And I think you could leverage your existing knowledge very well. Some of the most talented people I've worked with in motorsport have worked in logistics, coordination, and team management. They truly are the unsung heroes, but the drivers know what's what.
Of course, if you want to spin spanners, specifically, this isn't a great idea, but if you're looking at a career in motorsports, co-driver --> logistics coordinator --> WRC principal has been done a number of times. Dave Richards, Jean Todt, Luis Moya, to name a few. I can think of worse things to aspire to. Of course, Ove Andersson started out as a driver, but one might assume that Todt rubbed off on him?
- Christian[/QUOTE]
Mike- That's what I did at Roush for 3+ years. Craftsman Truck & Trans Am. I also got to learn some Fab, built some gearboxes (a road course winner & a Texas winner- shhh- dont tell Jack!) rear ends, and alot of other stuff I would never have learned about racing otherwise from some darn smart folks like Dan Binks, Randy Goss, Tommy Kendall, Mark Martin, Joe Ruttman, Greg Biffle(who could build a heck of a late model), etc...
Getting your foot inthe door is half the battle.
Dare to do what YOU WANT. You can choose this for the path to get you there, or you can go beat down the doors by hand using your current credentials.
I used to think the dream job would be to do logistics at the WRC level (until I realized my dream job might be what I do now), but I think NASCAR would be great, too. And I think you could leverage your existing knowledge very well. Some of the most talented people I've worked with in motorsport have worked in logistics, coordination, and team management. They truly are the unsung heroes, but the drivers know what's what.
Of course, if you want to spin spanners, specifically, this isn't a great idea, but if you're looking at a career in motorsports, co-driver --> logistics coordinator --> WRC principal has been done a number of times. Dave Richards, Jean Todt, Luis Moya, to name a few. I can think of worse things to aspire to. Of course, Ove Andersson started out as a driver, but one might assume that Todt rubbed off on him?
- Christian[/QUOTE]
Mike- That's what I did at Roush for 3+ years. Craftsman Truck & Trans Am. I also got to learn some Fab, built some gearboxes (a road course winner & a Texas winner- shhh- dont tell Jack!) rear ends, and alot of other stuff I would never have learned about racing otherwise from some darn smart folks like Dan Binks, Randy Goss, Tommy Kendall, Mark Martin, Joe Ruttman, Greg Biffle(who could build a heck of a late model), etc...
Getting your foot inthe door is half the battle.
Dare to do what YOU WANT. You can choose this for the path to get you there, or you can go beat down the doors by hand using your current credentials.
| mykrrrr | 07-06-2006 01:25 PM |
[QUOTE=JC_595]Mike- That's what I did at Roush for 3+ years. Craftsman Truck & Trans Am. I also got to learn some Fab, built some gearboxes (a road course winner & a Texas winner- shhh- dont tell Jack!) rear ends, and alot of other stuff I would never have learned about racing otherwise from some darn smart folks like Dan Binks, Randy Goss, Tommy Kendall, Mark Martin, Joe Ruttman, Greg Biffle(who could build a heck of a late model), etc...
Getting your foot inthe door is half the battle.
Dare to do what YOU WANT. You can choose this for the path to get you there, or you can go beat down the doors by hand using your current credentials.[/QUOTE]
I think the school route offers me more opportunities for future networking than just pounding the pavement for a few years.
I think my logistics background combined with schooling will make me way more rounded as an individual and make me more of an asset to a team since I could do multiple roles if needed.
Getting your foot inthe door is half the battle.
Dare to do what YOU WANT. You can choose this for the path to get you there, or you can go beat down the doors by hand using your current credentials.[/QUOTE]
I think the school route offers me more opportunities for future networking than just pounding the pavement for a few years.
I think my logistics background combined with schooling will make me way more rounded as an individual and make me more of an asset to a team since I could do multiple roles if needed.
| TCE | 07-06-2006 07:50 PM |
The benefit of the school situation is that (IF YOU APPLY YOURSELF) you will be up to your butt in cars to work on. Not one car. Meaning you'll be exposed to the same problem on many cars and special problems on a few cars. All of which need your attention.
Now if you simply stand around with your thumb up your butt like some do, and let the talented guys do the work...well, what do you think you'll get out of it? Not much but grief from the others who are working. There is (or was) no real hard core whip cracking but we did expect everyone to pull thier weight. A few fall out, a couple get asked to leave...that's pretty much how it works. As they say "only the strong survive".
In the end it's ONE year of your life/goal and you won't learn as much, as fast working the club scene.
"A contact for Worldspeed Motorsports"?? Be a self starter and see if you can find them on your own. That's a leader.
Now if you simply stand around with your thumb up your butt like some do, and let the talented guys do the work...well, what do you think you'll get out of it? Not much but grief from the others who are working. There is (or was) no real hard core whip cracking but we did expect everyone to pull thier weight. A few fall out, a couple get asked to leave...that's pretty much how it works. As they say "only the strong survive".
In the end it's ONE year of your life/goal and you won't learn as much, as fast working the club scene.
"A contact for Worldspeed Motorsports"?? Be a self starter and see if you can find them on your own. That's a leader.
| mykrrrr | 07-06-2006 08:12 PM |
[QUOTE=TCE]The benefit of the school situation is that (IF YOU APPLY YOURSELF) you will be up to your butt in cars to work on. Not one car. Meaning you'll be exposed to the same problem on many cars and special problems on a few cars. All of which need your attention.
Now if you simply stand around with your thumb up your butt like some do, and let the talented guys do the work...well, what do you think you'll get out of it? Not much but grief from the others who are working. There is (or was) no real hard core whip cracking but we did expect everyone to pull thier weight. A few fall out, a couple get asked to leave...that's pretty much how it works. As they say "only the strong survive".
In the end it's ONE year of your life/goal and you won't learn as much, as fast working the club scene.
"A contact for Worldspeed Motorsports"?? Be a self starter and see if you can find them on your own. That's a leader.[/QUOTE]
TCE - Sorry if I offended you by simply asking for a contact email or tele # for Worldspeed Motorsports. I had never heard of this outfit before so that's why I asked for some contact information.
I'm not asking [b]anyone[/b] here to cross my T's and dot my I's for me. I'm trying to gather opinions, experiences and insite on this and other schools.
I don't plan on failing out nor do I plan on just sitting back and doing nothing while others around me have to pick up the pace to cover for me.
Now if you simply stand around with your thumb up your butt like some do, and let the talented guys do the work...well, what do you think you'll get out of it? Not much but grief from the others who are working. There is (or was) no real hard core whip cracking but we did expect everyone to pull thier weight. A few fall out, a couple get asked to leave...that's pretty much how it works. As they say "only the strong survive".
In the end it's ONE year of your life/goal and you won't learn as much, as fast working the club scene.
"A contact for Worldspeed Motorsports"?? Be a self starter and see if you can find them on your own. That's a leader.[/QUOTE]
TCE - Sorry if I offended you by simply asking for a contact email or tele # for Worldspeed Motorsports. I had never heard of this outfit before so that's why I asked for some contact information.
I'm not asking [b]anyone[/b] here to cross my T's and dot my I's for me. I'm trying to gather opinions, experiences and insite on this and other schools.
I don't plan on failing out nor do I plan on just sitting back and doing nothing while others around me have to pick up the pace to cover for me.
| Joel Gat, 1.8L | 07-06-2006 09:08 PM |
Hello,
I think what TCE was pointing out was that someone who will be highly successful in racing (where self-motivation is extremely important) should be able to figure out how to do the following:
[url]http://www.google.com/search?&q=Worldspeed%20Motorsports[/url]
I spent a short time working with a guy who had done the JR school in the late 90s and I was completely impressed with his skills and work ethic. He was certainly a better mechanic than I am and if I ever had the opportunity, I'd hire him in a flash.
(err, I'd match my wrenching skills to almost anyone else, but my mechanics are certainly more efficient at doing what they do than I am)
Joel
I think what TCE was pointing out was that someone who will be highly successful in racing (where self-motivation is extremely important) should be able to figure out how to do the following:
[url]http://www.google.com/search?&q=Worldspeed%20Motorsports[/url]
I spent a short time working with a guy who had done the JR school in the late 90s and I was completely impressed with his skills and work ethic. He was certainly a better mechanic than I am and if I ever had the opportunity, I'd hire him in a flash.
(err, I'd match my wrenching skills to almost anyone else, but my mechanics are certainly more efficient at doing what they do than I am)
Joel
| TCE | 07-06-2006 09:58 PM |
Joel is a smart man.
I was not offend, nor meant to offend. But it does measure initiative and that was exactly what I was driving at.
An old friend there had a saying that I have learned to live by: we have no problems, we have only solutions.
I'm all for you doing the program.
I was not offend, nor meant to offend. But it does measure initiative and that was exactly what I was driving at.
An old friend there had a saying that I have learned to live by: we have no problems, we have only solutions.
I'm all for you doing the program.
| chadblock | 07-06-2006 11:27 PM |
[QUOTE=TCE]Joel is a smart man.
I was not offend, nor meant to offend. But it does measure initiative and that was exactly what I was driving at.
An old friend there had a saying that I have learned to live by: we have no problems, we have only solutions.
I'm all for you doing the program.[/QUOTE]
listen to todd!!
(todd was our tech director when i raced mazdas, and is very talented in his own right with pikes peak wins!!)
cheers
chad b
I was not offend, nor meant to offend. But it does measure initiative and that was exactly what I was driving at.
An old friend there had a saying that I have learned to live by: we have no problems, we have only solutions.
I'm all for you doing the program.[/QUOTE]
listen to todd!!
(todd was our tech director when i raced mazdas, and is very talented in his own right with pikes peak wins!!)
cheers
chad b
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