| abaxter34 | 08-27-2004 08:49 PM |
koni vs. kyb
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for the time being im convinced that the koni inserts would work better with my prodrive springs than the kyb agxs for daily driving and autox duties. i know the konis only adjust rebound where the agxs do rebound and compression but it sounds as if you can still fine tune the car better with the konis. im running in stx and so far ive been competitive with the stock struts but theyre feeling worn with 63k., 12 of which with the prodrives. is there any reason other than price to go with the agxs? ive never ridden in a car with either one of the two so i would like as many opinions and first hand knowledge as possible.
i know someone will probably mention coilovers, which im not opposed to, but money is an issue.
thanks,
-Adam
i know someone will probably mention coilovers, which im not opposed to, but money is an issue.
thanks,
-Adam
| nate49509 | 08-27-2004 09:12 PM |
The rears are also easier to adjust on the agx's because the adjusters on the inside bottom of the car unlike the Konis which are up top requiring the removal of the seat back and running STX means you'd have make sure you put the seat back.
Personally I prefer the KYBs.
Personally I prefer the KYBs.
| solo-x | 08-27-2004 09:15 PM |
koni's are WAY better then AGX's. i could go into extensive detail but steve would get upset, so i'll just do a comparo. falken azenis vs. RE-92's. 'nuff said.
nate
nate
| abaxter34 | 08-27-2004 11:40 PM |
i have a wagon so the adjuster placement in the rear makes no difference to me. the only thing that sucks about the adjuster position on the front konis is that ill have to drill a hole thru the dust cap on my pde camber/caster plates.
| STiTuner | 08-27-2004 11:43 PM |
most people don't know that on the single adjustable shocks when you change the rebound you change the compression... and vice versa, to a minor extent anyway. the key is the valving that gets put into a shock. Koni are naturally much more digressive than KYB's, which is IMO much more practical for real world application on both the street and the track.
| thechickencow | 08-28-2004 04:37 PM |
Just to straighten nate out, the wrx agx'es have the adjuster on the top of the strut as well - at least mine do. Its also 4 way vs. 8 way of the RS style ones.
| nate49509 | 08-28-2004 05:47 PM |
[QUOTE=thechickencow]Just to straighten nate out, the wrx agx'es have the adjuster on the top of the strut as well - at least mine do. Its also 4 way vs. 8 way of the RS style ones.[/QUOTE]
Ok. I didn't know they were up top for the WRX.
Ok. I didn't know they were up top for the WRX.
| kwh29 | 08-29-2004 03:17 PM |
KYB is to Koni as Budweiser is to Sam Adams. You won't go wrong with the better shocks.
(Or get the Mouton Cadet: Moton shocks!) :D
--Kevin H.
(Or get the Mouton Cadet: Moton shocks!) :D
--Kevin H.
| nate49509 | 08-29-2004 06:32 PM |
[QUOTE=kwh29]KYB is to Koni as Budweiser is to Sam Adams. You won't go wrong with the better shocks.
(Or get the Mouton Cadet: Moton shocks!) :D
--Kevin H.[/QUOTE]
Maybe. But I think comparing KYB's to RE-92's is a bit extreme though.
(Or get the Mouton Cadet: Moton shocks!) :D
--Kevin H.[/QUOTE]
Maybe. But I think comparing KYB's to RE-92's is a bit extreme though.
| solo-x | 08-29-2004 08:06 PM |
hrm.... i was thinking it wasn't extreme enough!
come to nats and go to the shock seminar lee grimes is going to put on.
agx is to koni as warm cat piss is to Sam Adams.
in the interest of full disclosure, i do not work for koni, nor does koni give me any special treatment or pricing. koni's service, quality, and performance has made me a very loyal customer. as such i'm highly biased towards koni.
nate
come to nats and go to the shock seminar lee grimes is going to put on.
agx is to koni as warm cat piss is to Sam Adams.
in the interest of full disclosure, i do not work for koni, nor does koni give me any special treatment or pricing. koni's service, quality, and performance has made me a very loyal customer. as such i'm highly biased towards koni.
nate
| nate49509 | 08-29-2004 10:34 PM |
Its kinda funny. I don't see any facts, tests or real data. Just people bagging on the KYB's. I've driven on both and had the KYB's in my old RS and didn't notice the Konis being that much better. I know the local scene doesn't compare to the nationals but I had no problem dominating the local STS scene (not to mention STX) for 2yrs with my old 00 RS on AGX's and SPT springs. Not to bad for cat pee but some people love a brand name. :rolleyes:
| Wolfen42 | 08-29-2004 10:44 PM |
[QUOTE=solo-x]hrm.... i was thinking it wasn't extreme enough!
come to nats and go to the shock seminar lee grimes is going to put on.
agx is to koni as warm cat piss is to Sam Adams.
nate[/QUOTE]
Heeell son... This is the U.S. of A.... ALL we drink here is warm cat's piss... you got a problem wit dat? :)
come to nats and go to the shock seminar lee grimes is going to put on.
agx is to koni as warm cat piss is to Sam Adams.
nate[/QUOTE]
Heeell son... This is the U.S. of A.... ALL we drink here is warm cat's piss... you got a problem wit dat? :)
| Swine | 08-29-2004 10:55 PM |
yeah, i have heard plenty of good reviews for agx's. how much better would agx's be then stock struts?
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=613781[/url]
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=613781[/url]
| abaxter34 | 08-29-2004 11:17 PM |
i know that with the koni inserts a little bit if suspension travel is sacrificed due to them being a conversion rather than a replacement part. is that something i would ever notice? thats really the main issue that made me take the kyb's into consideration again. id like to keep as much travel as possible.
-Adam
-Adam
| D_REX | 08-30-2004 08:50 AM |
[QUOTE=abaxter34]i know that with the koni inserts a little bit if suspension travel is sacrificed due to them being a conversion rather than a replacement part. is that something i would ever notice? thats really the main issue that made me take the kyb's into consideration again. id like to keep as much travel as possible.
-Adam[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure this is really the case. I've measured the Koni inserts and they have more than 6" of stroke. Don't correlate the lack of bump stroke experienced by Ground Control users to a deficiency in the design of the Koni inserts.
How much travel do you want? How low do you want to be? How would you like your travel distributed (bump / rebound)?
FWIW after modifying my insert mounting I was concerned I might have too much bump travel. I compressed the suspension without a spring to verify that I didn't cause any tire / fender collisions.
Back to the topic at hand: I like my Konis but they could be better (I'd like to have them revalved for more damping), I've never tried the KYBs.
Later,
Dustin
-Adam[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure this is really the case. I've measured the Koni inserts and they have more than 6" of stroke. Don't correlate the lack of bump stroke experienced by Ground Control users to a deficiency in the design of the Koni inserts.
How much travel do you want? How low do you want to be? How would you like your travel distributed (bump / rebound)?
FWIW after modifying my insert mounting I was concerned I might have too much bump travel. I compressed the suspension without a spring to verify that I didn't cause any tire / fender collisions.
Back to the topic at hand: I like my Konis but they could be better (I'd like to have them revalved for more damping), I've never tried the KYBs.
Later,
Dustin
| Porter | 08-30-2004 09:29 AM |
I have used both.
The KYB AGX is an excellent budget adjustable strut, essentially an adjustable version of their inexpensive but effective GR2 "sporty" replacement strut. They will produce an improvement over stock in terms of both feel and spring control, and can handle higher springrates than the OEM KYBs.
The Koni Sport Yellows are in a different league, and are designed with real performance on real surfaces in mind. Rebound damping is significantly higher on the Konis than on the AGXs, and will give a much more "poised" feeling when driving, especially when pushing it. Grip on the ground will also be substantially higher with the Konis.
There are significantly better, more advanced strut designs out there than the Koni yellows, but at significantly higher prices. You can't beat them for the money.
The KYB AGX is an excellent budget adjustable strut, essentially an adjustable version of their inexpensive but effective GR2 "sporty" replacement strut. They will produce an improvement over stock in terms of both feel and spring control, and can handle higher springrates than the OEM KYBs.
The Koni Sport Yellows are in a different league, and are designed with real performance on real surfaces in mind. Rebound damping is significantly higher on the Konis than on the AGXs, and will give a much more "poised" feeling when driving, especially when pushing it. Grip on the ground will also be substantially higher with the Konis.
There are significantly better, more advanced strut designs out there than the Koni yellows, but at significantly higher prices. You can't beat them for the money.
| kwh29 | 08-30-2004 09:45 AM |
The biggest deal is that Koni's are not a lot more expensive than AGX's and with the exception of apparently half the people reading this thread everyone I know who has run both _greatly_ prefers the Koni and ends up having problems with AGX's due to their budget nature.
Now the AGX _is_ better than stock and is a lot better than worn out stock stuff, particularly with higher rate springs. It's foolish to even expect passable performance from old stock struts with aftermarket springs. I just don't understand why someone would go to the effort to buy the AGX's when the cost difference to the Koni isn't really very large at all.
--Kevin H.
Now the AGX _is_ better than stock and is a lot better than worn out stock stuff, particularly with higher rate springs. It's foolish to even expect passable performance from old stock struts with aftermarket springs. I just don't understand why someone would go to the effort to buy the AGX's when the cost difference to the Koni isn't really very large at all.
--Kevin H.
| D_REX | 08-30-2004 09:51 AM |
[QUOTE=kwh29]I just don't understand why someone would go to the effort to buy the AGX's when the cost difference to the Koni isn't really very large at all.
--Kevin H.[/QUOTE]
There appears to be a commn perception that the "Insert" concept is not reliable, difficult to install, or just plain not as good. I really can't figure out which but the Koni gets a bad rap because it's not a full replacement strut. It is this mounting method that allowed me to fix my setup's biggest problem, so personally I'm all for it ;)
--Kevin H.[/QUOTE]
There appears to be a commn perception that the "Insert" concept is not reliable, difficult to install, or just plain not as good. I really can't figure out which but the Koni gets a bad rap because it's not a full replacement strut. It is this mounting method that allowed me to fix my setup's biggest problem, so personally I'm all for it ;)
| leecea | 08-30-2004 10:58 AM |
[QUOTE]FWIW after modifying my insert mounting I was concerned I might have too much bump travel.[/QUOTE]
Slight thread hijack, but I was intrigued by the comment above... can you offer more details?
Slight thread hijack, but I was intrigued by the comment above... can you offer more details?
| D_REX | 08-30-2004 11:04 AM |
Read all about it ;)
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=602326[/url]
If you are interested in doing the same thing, PM me, I can help ;)
Later,
Dustin
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=602326[/url]
If you are interested in doing the same thing, PM me, I can help ;)
Later,
Dustin
| jmott | 08-30-2004 11:17 AM |
Ask yourself this:
Are you trying to win a very competitive racing class?
Do you have tons of money?
If there answer is no to both, get the cheaper shock. It is plenty good, and if you aren't approaching ninja driving skill levels you won't notice anyway.
There is no reason you can't go ninja fast on the AGXs
Are you trying to win a very competitive racing class?
Do you have tons of money?
If there answer is no to both, get the cheaper shock. It is plenty good, and if you aren't approaching ninja driving skill levels you won't notice anyway.
There is no reason you can't go ninja fast on the AGXs
| paultg | 08-30-2004 12:11 PM |
[QUOTE=abaxter34]is there any reason other than price to go with the agxs?thanks,
-Adam[/QUOTE]
I know a few folks who have had the AGX's on there older Subaru's (2001 RS and a older Outback Sport). The AgX's just didn't seem to hold up very well to the harsh New England weather. Both of them had trouble with noise from the rear struts, all within a year.
My friend with the RS had stock springs, and I think did maybe 2 or 3 events with the car. All othe use was highway driving around New England. The Outback Sport was used more often at Rallyx events, etc.
When I was trying to decided between the two I went with the Koni's for my WRX wagon because of the experience they both had. I'd rather spend a bit more time installing Konis than taking AGX's out every year or so.
I was really happy with the Koni's. Sold them to someone when I sold the car, and as far as I know the setup is still going strong on his car.
I have RS struts for my Impreza L sitting in the basement waiting for Konis.
Paul G.
-Adam[/QUOTE]
I know a few folks who have had the AGX's on there older Subaru's (2001 RS and a older Outback Sport). The AgX's just didn't seem to hold up very well to the harsh New England weather. Both of them had trouble with noise from the rear struts, all within a year.
My friend with the RS had stock springs, and I think did maybe 2 or 3 events with the car. All othe use was highway driving around New England. The Outback Sport was used more often at Rallyx events, etc.
When I was trying to decided between the two I went with the Koni's for my WRX wagon because of the experience they both had. I'd rather spend a bit more time installing Konis than taking AGX's out every year or so.
I was really happy with the Koni's. Sold them to someone when I sold the car, and as far as I know the setup is still going strong on his car.
I have RS struts for my Impreza L sitting in the basement waiting for Konis.
Paul G.
| leecea | 08-30-2004 03:58 PM |
[QUOTE=D_REX]Read all about it ;)
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=602326[/url]
If you are interested in doing the same thing, PM me, I can help ;)
Later,
Dustin[/QUOTE]
Thanks, that's very clever. I'm OK for now, with stock springs, but I will definitely remember that in case I change things later.
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=602326[/url]
If you are interested in doing the same thing, PM me, I can help ;)
Later,
Dustin[/QUOTE]
Thanks, that's very clever. I'm OK for now, with stock springs, but I will definitely remember that in case I change things later.
| Warp3 | 08-30-2004 08:02 PM |
[QUOTE=D_REX]There appears to be a commn perception that the "Insert" concept is not reliable, difficult to install, or just plain not as good.[/QUOTE]
...and the "difficult to install" part is no longer even a valid excuse since [url=http://www.boxer4racing.com]Teague's Auto / Boxer4Racing[/url] optionally sells them fully assembled for $799 (with the exchange of your stock struts). :D
Shane -- SM 729
...and the "difficult to install" part is no longer even a valid excuse since [url=http://www.boxer4racing.com]Teague's Auto / Boxer4Racing[/url] optionally sells them fully assembled for $799 (with the exchange of your stock struts). :D
Shane -- SM 729
| Swine | 08-30-2004 09:38 PM |
[QUOTE=Warp3].
Shane -- SM 729[/QUOTE]
who is shane, and is that what he charges?
Shane -- SM 729[/QUOTE]
who is shane, and is that what he charges?
| Craigs | 08-30-2004 11:26 PM |
Koni vs AGX must be broken down front vs rear. In the front you are probably getting too much understeer from the tire not being attached to the ground. You should go with Konis because you can set them at hard compression and with their relatively soft rebound they will get the tires back to the surface more quickly. In the rear you aren't getting the rotation that you need so a hard compression and a slow rebound will let the tires slide to give rotation. This isn't what I said its what a neon driver in GRM said to a RS driver. Its the setup I would run next year if I stay with the RS.
Craig
PS: never listen to a Honda guy.
Craig
PS: never listen to a Honda guy.
| leecea | 08-31-2004 08:34 AM |
[QUOTE=Craig2000RS]You should go with Konis because you can set them at hard compression and with their relatively soft rebound they will get the tires back to the surface more quickly. In the rear you aren't getting the rotation that you need so a hard compression and a slow rebound will let the tires slide to give rotation. [/QUOTE]
Do you mean set the rebound damping low at the front and high at the back? I think that's right. You can't set "hard compression" on the most common Konis.
Do you mean set the rebound damping low at the front and high at the back? I think that's right. You can't set "hard compression" on the most common Konis.
| Craigs | 08-31-2004 08:37 AM |
As far as I know off the shelf single adjustable Konis adjust compression only. Therefore setting compression to stiff will leave the rebound soft relative to compression. Where on KYBs you adjust both to either hard or soft and their relationship to each other stays the same.
Craig
Craig
| ConeMasher | 08-31-2004 09:44 AM |
[QUOTE]As far as I know off the shelf single adjustable Konis adjust compression only. [/QUOTE]
Incorrect. OTS Koni SA inserts are rebound adjustable. Compression is fixed. This is a very good thing.
-- Gary
Incorrect. OTS Koni SA inserts are rebound adjustable. Compression is fixed. This is a very good thing.
-- Gary
| Craigs | 08-31-2004 09:51 AM |
Thanks Gary - I had that backwards.
Craig
Craig
| abaxter34 | 08-31-2004 10:55 PM |
has anyone on here ever had a warranty issue with the konis? i have the opportunity to buy a used set already installed in struts with only 5k on them but im sorta thinking i should just buy them new for the warranty. ive heard they should last well over 100k but it would be nice to be able to have one warrantied if it got f'd up somehow.
d-rex that was your thread that made me aware of the bump stroke of the konis and gc's. thanks for clarifying.
d-rex that was your thread that made me aware of the bump stroke of the konis and gc's. thanks for clarifying.
| kwh29 | 09-01-2004 11:08 AM |
Several people in my local autocross clubs have returned Konis for repair/replacement with good results. The only funkiness is that Koni requires you to buy your replacement shock then they credit you if they deem the dead shock a warranty-related failure. I've never heard of them denying the credit but it's possible I guess, particularly if the shock looked mangled or modified.
--Kevin H.
--Kevin H.
| steve | 09-03-2004 07:29 PM |
I run the Konis now, and wouldn't change them for anything.
FYI, I've run the whitelines coilovers, and KYB's in the past, and nothing beats Koni.
FYI, I've run the whitelines coilovers, and KYB's in the past, and nothing beats Koni.
| steve | 09-03-2004 07:31 PM |
[QUOTE=abaxter34]has anyone on here ever had a warranty issue with the konis? [/QUOTE]
Sorry for the double post, but I'm going through a warranty claim with Koni now on a bad rear insert. They've been a dream to deal with, kind, sympathetic, and definately interested in helping out.
Sorry for the double post, but I'm going through a warranty claim with Koni now on a bad rear insert. They've been a dream to deal with, kind, sympathetic, and definately interested in helping out.
| solo-x | 09-03-2004 09:47 PM |
lee grimes has jumped through hoops to correct minor issues for me. a shock damaged in transit was replaced. sent me the replacement while i still had the damaged peice on my car so i didn't have any down time. even dynoed a set of shocks for me to prove/disprove if one of them was faulty for free. the best part? the koni trailer shows up at nats and will do work on a first come-first served basis for the cost of parts. saves you about $75-$90 per shock for revalve work. does the same for the roadracers. service like that cannot be beat.
here's a thread on h-t from lee grimes at koni. [url=http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=397035]linky[/url]
nate
here's a thread on h-t from lee grimes at koni. [url=http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=397035]linky[/url]
nate
| abaxter34 | 09-04-2004 07:17 PM |
thanks for the feedback. i think ill be ordering a set right now.
| Paisan | 09-06-2004 09:53 PM |
[QUOTE=Porter]I have used both.
The KYB AGX is an excellent budget adjustable strut, essentially an adjustable version of their inexpensive but effective GR2 "sporty" replacement strut. They will produce an improvement over stock in terms of both feel and spring control, and can handle higher springrates than the OEM KYBs.
The Koni Sport Yellows are in a different league, and are designed with real performance on real surfaces in mind. Rebound damping is significantly higher on the Konis than on the AGXs, and will give a much more "poised" feeling when driving, especially when pushing it. Grip on the ground will also be substantially higher with the Konis.
There are significantly better, more advanced strut designs out there than the Koni yellows, but at significantly higher prices. You can't beat them for the money.[/QUOTE]
As always, Porter put down the almost exact words I was thinking. I've run both and found the Konis are worth the extra install effort. KYB are great v. stock, but the Konis especially for a daily driver are outstanding IMHO.
-mike
The KYB AGX is an excellent budget adjustable strut, essentially an adjustable version of their inexpensive but effective GR2 "sporty" replacement strut. They will produce an improvement over stock in terms of both feel and spring control, and can handle higher springrates than the OEM KYBs.
The Koni Sport Yellows are in a different league, and are designed with real performance on real surfaces in mind. Rebound damping is significantly higher on the Konis than on the AGXs, and will give a much more "poised" feeling when driving, especially when pushing it. Grip on the ground will also be substantially higher with the Konis.
There are significantly better, more advanced strut designs out there than the Koni yellows, but at significantly higher prices. You can't beat them for the money.[/QUOTE]
As always, Porter put down the almost exact words I was thinking. I've run both and found the Konis are worth the extra install effort. KYB are great v. stock, but the Konis especially for a daily driver are outstanding IMHO.
-mike
| Tkacik | 09-06-2004 10:03 PM |
I ran KYB adjustables on my Impreza - I also drove an Impreza with Konis. I'd reccomend the Konis to anyone who has the money. I think the KYB's were a bit less expensive.
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