| Uber Wagon | 04-19-2004 11:58 AM |
Leftfoot braking?
�
�
So I did an autox driver's school event this weekend (which was an absolute blast) and almost every one of my instructors thought the next step for me to drop my time was to learn left foot braking in my STi.
I was just curious what the top level scooby drivers here think.
I was just curious what the top level scooby drivers here think.
| buster | 04-19-2004 12:15 PM |
Not too sure if it is the ONLY way but it is sure something you should learn to make the most of your car. I have found a few courses where there are corners you are stuck between 1st-2nd or 2nd 3rd, it helps if you can stay in that higher gear, left foot brake and squirt out of that corner at your torque peak.
| WRX_Mundi | 04-19-2004 01:13 PM |
I'll agree with buster. I don't left foot brake, mainly because I've still got a lot of other things to learn. There are courses where it won't help a huge amount, there are courses where there is one turn that just begs for it, and then there are the stupid tight courses that stick you between first and second all the time. Example:
[url]http://www.jacobsensation.com/dana/Autox_2004_03_21_Dana_2.wmv[/url]
Not the greatest example of my driving. But a big problem for me was that every stinking corner I had my choice of super-high 1st with insane torque for the grip or lagged 2nd gear. Even so, most other drivers had similar problems as this run was good enough for 8th in PAX. Top time by a huge amount was a Boxster. The novice Miata creamed the rest of the new drivers. Regardless, left foot braking into a couple of these corners would have helped a lot.
[url]http://www.jacobsensation.com/dana/Autox_2004_03_21_Dana_2.wmv[/url]
Not the greatest example of my driving. But a big problem for me was that every stinking corner I had my choice of super-high 1st with insane torque for the grip or lagged 2nd gear. Even so, most other drivers had similar problems as this run was good enough for 8th in PAX. Top time by a huge amount was a Boxster. The novice Miata creamed the rest of the new drivers. Regardless, left foot braking into a couple of these corners would have helped a lot.
| jmott | 04-19-2004 01:28 PM |
Many top drivers left foot break even on non turbo cars to maximize smootheness.
Your going to have to suck for a while until you get used to it, but eventually you will get used to it.
Your going to have to suck for a while until you get used to it, but eventually you will get used to it.
| kfoote | 04-19-2004 01:47 PM |
I brake with my left foot wherever possible in any car I drive on track or auto-X. I learned to drive on track with a car with a lot of turbo lag, but have also found it beneficial in non turbo cars.
| stxwrxracer | 04-20-2004 11:10 AM |
Left.
-Mike King
-Mike King
| trhoppe | 04-20-2004 11:39 AM |
Its definetly not necessary. Its actually VERY hard on a scooby as you have vacuum assisted brakes. If you left foot brake while the turbo is going, you will run out of vacuum assist and the brake pedal will harden up.
There are a LOT of incredible drivers who right foot brake. There are a LOT of incredible drivers who left foot brake.
One way is not definetly faster then the other......
-Tom
There are a LOT of incredible drivers who right foot brake. There are a LOT of incredible drivers who left foot brake.
One way is not definetly faster then the other......
-Tom
| Watkinsm3 | 04-20-2004 11:54 AM |
Right foot braker here... I think one can be just as fast with the right foot.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe[/i]
[B]
There are a LOT of incredible drivers who right foot brake. There are a LOT of incredible drivers who left foot brake.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Don't forget the not-so-incredible drivers like me who right foot brake. :D
-Watkins (aka Matt)
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe[/i]
[B]
There are a LOT of incredible drivers who right foot brake. There are a LOT of incredible drivers who left foot brake.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Don't forget the not-so-incredible drivers like me who right foot brake. :D
-Watkins (aka Matt)
| jmott | 04-20-2004 12:08 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Watkinsm3 [/i]
[B]Right foot braker here... I think one can be just as fast with the right foot.
Don't forget the not-so-incredible drivers like me who right foot brake. :D
-Watkins (aka Matt) [/B][/QUOTE]
thinking about it theoretically, Id argue it is impossible to be as fast right foot braking. accelerating down a straight, right foot braking must first come off the gas before applying brake, which means he upsets the car twice, instead of once, and spends some time decelerating less strongly than he could be.
negligible difference? maybe.
[B]Right foot braker here... I think one can be just as fast with the right foot.
Don't forget the not-so-incredible drivers like me who right foot brake. :D
-Watkins (aka Matt) [/B][/QUOTE]
thinking about it theoretically, Id argue it is impossible to be as fast right foot braking. accelerating down a straight, right foot braking must first come off the gas before applying brake, which means he upsets the car twice, instead of once, and spends some time decelerating less strongly than he could be.
negligible difference? maybe.
| TimStevens | 04-20-2004 12:56 PM |
Best way to get the feel for it, IMHO, is with PC racing sims. Most wheel and pedal sets are designed for you to LFB, and after a few hours racing online left-foot braking will become second nature.
| speedyHAM | 04-20-2004 05:45 PM |
I think you need to do it in some corners, not all, but there are a few where it can help by a few tenths.
| wrx2.0 555 | 04-21-2004 08:27 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by stxwrxracer [/i]
[B]Left.
-Mike King [/B][/QUOTE]
Spoken like a true genius. ;)
I am currently working on LFB'ing as a desperate attempt to beat Mike someday. :D
Scott
[B]Left.
-Mike King [/B][/QUOTE]
Spoken like a true genius. ;)
I am currently working on LFB'ing as a desperate attempt to beat Mike someday. :D
Scott
| stxwrxracer | 04-21-2004 08:34 AM |
Also keep in mind Jason Hart, the Mazda Rev It Up "Pro" that no one seems to be able to catch is a RIGHT foot braker...hmmm...
MK
P.S. Thanks Scott.:D
MK
P.S. Thanks Scott.:D
| trhoppe | 04-21-2004 12:17 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by stxwrxracer[/i]
[B] Also keep in mind Jason Hart, the Mazda Rev It Up "Pro" that no one seems to be able to catch is a RIGHT foot braker...hmmm...
[/B][/QUOTE]
Is the Mazda 3 have vacuum assisted power brakes?
Speaking of revitup, you doing it again this year? All the ones I can go to are conveniently scheduled during national events. I'm thinking of flying into miami and running the last one......
-Tom
Right footer for life!
[B] Also keep in mind Jason Hart, the Mazda Rev It Up "Pro" that no one seems to be able to catch is a RIGHT foot braker...hmmm...
[/B][/QUOTE]
Is the Mazda 3 have vacuum assisted power brakes?
Speaking of revitup, you doing it again this year? All the ones I can go to are conveniently scheduled during national events. I'm thinking of flying into miami and running the last one......
-Tom
Right footer for life!
| jmott | 04-21-2004 12:47 PM |
he also sets up the course, walks it, and drives it a few times before setting down his indexes =)
let karter bollman here in houston do that and he might well beat him.
wait, he already did last year =)
dont know which foot he brakes with t hough.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by stxwrxracer [/i]
[B]Also keep in mind Jason Hart, the Mazda Rev It Up "Pro" that no one seems to be able to catch is a RIGHT foot braker...hmmm...
MK
P.S. Thanks Scott.:D [/B][/QUOTE]
let karter bollman here in houston do that and he might well beat him.
wait, he already did last year =)
dont know which foot he brakes with t hough.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by stxwrxracer [/i]
[B]Also keep in mind Jason Hart, the Mazda Rev It Up "Pro" that no one seems to be able to catch is a RIGHT foot braker...hmmm...
MK
P.S. Thanks Scott.:D [/B][/QUOTE]
| kwh29 | 04-21-2004 04:41 PM |
LFB is your friend. Particularly in lashy-drivetrain-laggy-turbo WRX's. There are some very fast people who exclusively RFB so it's no magic bullet.
Prepare to spend some time learing it though. Like a season!
--Kevin H.
Prepare to spend some time learing it though. Like a season!
--Kevin H.
| ScobyWRX | 04-22-2004 12:45 PM |
The only way you will know if it is right for you is to try it I have been experimenting with it when I can and like the results but I need a lot of work to make use of it. good luck:)
| TimStevens | 04-22-2004 12:47 PM |
Here's a tip: don't try it on the street for the first time if there's someone driving right behind you. ;)
| RallyRX | 04-22-2004 12:54 PM |
So can one of you AutoX junkies help me out here -
Why left foot break rather than just heal-and-toe it? (To clarify - I mean braking with the inside of the right foot while applying gas with the outside of the right foot) I find in road driving it keeps my left foot clear to make decisions about being in gear. I guess the difference is knowing what's around the corner??
Why left foot break rather than just heal-and-toe it? (To clarify - I mean braking with the inside of the right foot while applying gas with the outside of the right foot) I find in road driving it keeps my left foot clear to make decisions about being in gear. I guess the difference is knowing what's around the corner??
| TimStevens | 04-22-2004 01:03 PM |
I do both. I LFB when I don't have to downshift, and heel-toe when I do.
| Uber Wagon | 04-22-2004 07:40 PM |
Great discussion. Thanks guys! :)
| afpdl | 04-22-2004 10:54 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by RallyRX[/i]
[B] So can one of you AutoX junkies help me out here -
Why left foot break rather than just heal-and-toe it? (To clarify - I mean braking with the inside of the right foot while applying gas with the outside of the right foot) I find in road driving it keeps my left foot clear to make decisions about being in gear. I guess the difference is knowing what's around the corner?? [/B][/QUOTE]
Heel toeing and lfb have two completely different purposes in mind. If you are going to shift at a corner you dont lfb.
[B] So can one of you AutoX junkies help me out here -
Why left foot break rather than just heal-and-toe it? (To clarify - I mean braking with the inside of the right foot while applying gas with the outside of the right foot) I find in road driving it keeps my left foot clear to make decisions about being in gear. I guess the difference is knowing what's around the corner?? [/B][/QUOTE]
Heel toeing and lfb have two completely different purposes in mind. If you are going to shift at a corner you dont lfb.
| arubus | 04-22-2004 11:19 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B]Its definetly not necessary. Its actually VERY hard on a scooby as you have vacuum assisted brakes. If you left foot brake while the turbo is going, you will run out of vacuum assist and the brake pedal will harden up.
There are a LOT of incredible drivers who right foot brake. There are a LOT of incredible drivers who left foot brake.
One way is not definetly faster then the other......
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
I left foot brake. I get around the brake booster problem by letting off the gas and applying the brake to get the initial bite, then I get back on the gas right before the apex. I've also found that on certain sweepers that I can't take at full throttle that checking my speed with LFB has worked out pretty well.
Even in corners that I could just RFB I LFB anyways just because I am quicker getting on/off the brake/gas.
You just gotta find out what works for your driving style.
--Wayne
[B]Its definetly not necessary. Its actually VERY hard on a scooby as you have vacuum assisted brakes. If you left foot brake while the turbo is going, you will run out of vacuum assist and the brake pedal will harden up.
There are a LOT of incredible drivers who right foot brake. There are a LOT of incredible drivers who left foot brake.
One way is not definetly faster then the other......
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
I left foot brake. I get around the brake booster problem by letting off the gas and applying the brake to get the initial bite, then I get back on the gas right before the apex. I've also found that on certain sweepers that I can't take at full throttle that checking my speed with LFB has worked out pretty well.
Even in corners that I could just RFB I LFB anyways just because I am quicker getting on/off the brake/gas.
You just gotta find out what works for your driving style.
--Wayne
| Rally Medic | 04-23-2004 05:23 AM |
i use it for RALLY !!
| MBPEJ20 | 04-23-2004 05:50 AM |
I think left foot braking is important to learn and there will be times when you need to use it. I consider it a more advanced skill and its not for amateurs. Its not necessary to learn right away if your new to autox/track.
Vic
Vic
| TimStevens | 04-23-2004 06:58 AM |
It's definitely not necessary to learn early on, but IMHO better to learn as early as possible than try to pick it up later.
| stxwrxracer | 04-23-2004 08:28 AM |
Yup, they are. That's what got me at San Diego. I had 744 points on my first run (sans cone) and 900ish on my second, albeit another cone run...I need to learn to slow down...right Tom? But, yeah, the Mazda 3 will bite ya if you left foot brake at the wrong time. Btw, don't touch ANY cones this year....they have all the apex cones bolted to the ground with a little flag sticking out of the top. Then they have people watching for the flag to move...it sucks! That's what happened on my first run...went out to do a clean first run, inches off every cone, then I come back in and they said I hit a cone...NOT! A flag moved as I went by...yup, ok...Anyway...I'll be at St. Pete and Miami...hey, come to Miami!:devil:
-Mike
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe[/i]
[B] Is the Mazda 3 have vacuum assisted power brakes?
Speaking of revitup, you doing it again this year? All the ones I can go to are conveniently scheduled during national events. I'm thinking of flying into miami and running the last one......
-Tom
Right footer for life! [/B][/QUOTE]
-Mike
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe[/i]
[B] Is the Mazda 3 have vacuum assisted power brakes?
Speaking of revitup, you doing it again this year? All the ones I can go to are conveniently scheduled during national events. I'm thinking of flying into miami and running the last one......
-Tom
Right footer for life! [/B][/QUOTE]
| KC | 04-23-2004 08:38 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by jmott[/i]
[B] let karter bollman here in houston do that and he might well beat him. [/B][/QUOTE]
Karter beat him last year, but not this year. So far, Karter is the only one that won a city last year and this year.
I'm a right footer too... It's just something I learned to do well when I used to deliver pizza for 3 years or so when I was still learning how to drive. (Pizza Delivery cars: '74 Dodge Dart/318c.i RWD.... '81 Subaru DL FWD... '89 Pontiac LeMans FWD... '84 Nissan Maxima RWD).
I don't look at lifting off the gas then braking as upsetting the car twice. There's just a hair of slop in the drive line before it catches up to really come into play to upset the car with engine braking so if you move fast enough, the car doesn't get upset.
Even the EVO school people say... if you're comfy with it, you don't really need to leftfoot brake as there's no 'right way'. :)
--kC
[B] let karter bollman here in houston do that and he might well beat him. [/B][/QUOTE]
Karter beat him last year, but not this year. So far, Karter is the only one that won a city last year and this year.
I'm a right footer too... It's just something I learned to do well when I used to deliver pizza for 3 years or so when I was still learning how to drive. (Pizza Delivery cars: '74 Dodge Dart/318c.i RWD.... '81 Subaru DL FWD... '89 Pontiac LeMans FWD... '84 Nissan Maxima RWD).
I don't look at lifting off the gas then braking as upsetting the car twice. There's just a hair of slop in the drive line before it catches up to really come into play to upset the car with engine braking so if you move fast enough, the car doesn't get upset.
Even the EVO school people say... if you're comfy with it, you don't really need to leftfoot brake as there's no 'right way'. :)
--kC
| kfoote | 04-23-2004 09:11 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC [/i]
[B]
...I used to deliver pizza for 3 years or so when I was still learning how to drive. (Pizza Delivery cars: '74 Dodge Dart/318c.i RWD.... '81 Subaru DL FWD... '89 Pontiac LeMans FWD... '84 Nissan Maxima RWD).
[/B][/QUOTE]
Ah, KC, another one whose racing career started delivering pizza :alien:
I started my pizza delivery career in a 1985 Mercury Topaz, then progressed to a 1991 Ford Probe GT, a 1985 Porsche 944, a 1987 Porsche 944, and made a couple of deliveries in my parents 1995 M3 and 94 Toyota Supra Twin Turbo.
I could honestly say, if the pizza was late, it wasn't my fault :D
[B]
...I used to deliver pizza for 3 years or so when I was still learning how to drive. (Pizza Delivery cars: '74 Dodge Dart/318c.i RWD.... '81 Subaru DL FWD... '89 Pontiac LeMans FWD... '84 Nissan Maxima RWD).
[/B][/QUOTE]
Ah, KC, another one whose racing career started delivering pizza :alien:
I started my pizza delivery career in a 1985 Mercury Topaz, then progressed to a 1991 Ford Probe GT, a 1985 Porsche 944, a 1987 Porsche 944, and made a couple of deliveries in my parents 1995 M3 and 94 Toyota Supra Twin Turbo.
I could honestly say, if the pizza was late, it wasn't my fault :D
| Chaste Automotive | 04-23-2004 03:38 PM |
Having been to school with LFB master former Mitsu WRC driver Pentti Airikala I would say that LFB can make you a lot faster but learning how to use it properly is what most people have problems with. Incorrect LFB can make your times slower practice and you can get it.
One thing he taught me is that you are either on the brake or on the Gas not both because that is the quickest way. You should only use the brakes to get weight transfer.
One thing he taught me is that you are either on the brake or on the Gas not both because that is the quickest way. You should only use the brakes to get weight transfer.
| jmott | 04-23-2004 03:53 PM |
I worked as a corner worker as MazdaRevItUp Houston.
we have specific instructions NOT to count moving flags, or event hitting them, as a hit cone.
for this seaons rev it up (not sure about last year) TOUCHING a cone counts as a cone, wether or not you move it, knock it over etc.
many people were sure they got BS cone calls, including a friend of mine who bitched about it later. Then i told her I was the one who called it in and she very clearly had hit it
: /
so could you have gotten a bs cone call? sure its possible. not all the guys working out there were super bright. However, whenever someone was especially quick, everyone paid extra close attention, and a BS call by one corner worker would likely be disputed by another.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by stxwrxracer [/i]
[B]Yup, they are. That's what got me at San Diego. I had 744 points on my first run (sans cone) and 900ish on my second, albeit another cone run...I need to learn to slow down...right Tom? But, yeah, the Mazda 3 will bite ya if you left foot brake at the wrong time. Btw, don't touch ANY cones this year....they have all the apex cones bolted to the ground with a little flag sticking out of the top. Then they have people watching for the flag to move...it sucks! That's what happened on my first run...went out to do a clean first run, inches off every cone, then I come back in and they said I hit a cone...NOT! A flag moved as I went by...yup, ok...Anyway...I'll be at St. Pete and Miami...hey, come to Miami!:devil:
-Mike [/B][/QUOTE]
we have specific instructions NOT to count moving flags, or event hitting them, as a hit cone.
for this seaons rev it up (not sure about last year) TOUCHING a cone counts as a cone, wether or not you move it, knock it over etc.
many people were sure they got BS cone calls, including a friend of mine who bitched about it later. Then i told her I was the one who called it in and she very clearly had hit it
: /
so could you have gotten a bs cone call? sure its possible. not all the guys working out there were super bright. However, whenever someone was especially quick, everyone paid extra close attention, and a BS call by one corner worker would likely be disputed by another.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by stxwrxracer [/i]
[B]Yup, they are. That's what got me at San Diego. I had 744 points on my first run (sans cone) and 900ish on my second, albeit another cone run...I need to learn to slow down...right Tom? But, yeah, the Mazda 3 will bite ya if you left foot brake at the wrong time. Btw, don't touch ANY cones this year....they have all the apex cones bolted to the ground with a little flag sticking out of the top. Then they have people watching for the flag to move...it sucks! That's what happened on my first run...went out to do a clean first run, inches off every cone, then I come back in and they said I hit a cone...NOT! A flag moved as I went by...yup, ok...Anyway...I'll be at St. Pete and Miami...hey, come to Miami!:devil:
-Mike [/B][/QUOTE]
| jmott | 04-23-2004 03:54 PM |
I said that...
or I meant to..
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC [/i]
[B]Karter beat him last year, but not this year. [/B][/QUOTE]
or I meant to..
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC [/i]
[B]Karter beat him last year, but not this year. [/B][/QUOTE]
| jmott | 04-23-2004 03:55 PM |
what about using brakes to slow down?
what about 2.0 liter turbo cars with no anti-lag to keep the boost up? I would thinking using both gas and brake at the same time in that case could be extremely useful.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Chaste Automotive [/i]
[B]Having been to school with LFB master former Mitsu WRC driver Pentti Airikala I would say that LFB can make you a lot faster but learning how to use it properly is what most people have problems with. Incorrect LFB can make your times slower practice and you can get it.
One thing he taught me is that you are either on the brake or on the Gas not both because that is the quickest way. You should only use the brakes to get weight transfer. [/B][/QUOTE]
what about 2.0 liter turbo cars with no anti-lag to keep the boost up? I would thinking using both gas and brake at the same time in that case could be extremely useful.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Chaste Automotive [/i]
[B]Having been to school with LFB master former Mitsu WRC driver Pentti Airikala I would say that LFB can make you a lot faster but learning how to use it properly is what most people have problems with. Incorrect LFB can make your times slower practice and you can get it.
One thing he taught me is that you are either on the brake or on the Gas not both because that is the quickest way. You should only use the brakes to get weight transfer. [/B][/QUOTE]
| arubus | 04-23-2004 08:26 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by jmott [/i]
[B]what about using brakes to slow down?
what about 2.0 liter turbo cars with no anti-lag to keep the boost up? I would thinking using both gas and brake at the same time in that case could be extremely useful. [/B][/QUOTE]
When my car was in the shop "sdecker" let me co-drive his blue-beast at the first Atlanta Region Event. There was one particular corner that he kept "bogging" down and had nothing coming out.
He asked how I wasn't getting any lag. Once I didn't trail-brake at all and accelerated through the whole turn, the other times I used LFB while gasing through the turn and let off the brake around the apex. I can't say which was faster, but for my driving style I liked the "control" (I use that loosely) I had with LFB.
LFB is my hero against the evils that are turbo-lag.
--Wayne
[B]what about using brakes to slow down?
what about 2.0 liter turbo cars with no anti-lag to keep the boost up? I would thinking using both gas and brake at the same time in that case could be extremely useful. [/B][/QUOTE]
When my car was in the shop "sdecker" let me co-drive his blue-beast at the first Atlanta Region Event. There was one particular corner that he kept "bogging" down and had nothing coming out.
He asked how I wasn't getting any lag. Once I didn't trail-brake at all and accelerated through the whole turn, the other times I used LFB while gasing through the turn and let off the brake around the apex. I can't say which was faster, but for my driving style I liked the "control" (I use that loosely) I had with LFB.
LFB is my hero against the evils that are turbo-lag.
--Wayne
| kurtfriedrich | 04-24-2004 02:41 AM |
its about beating the lag
�
�
I started LFB 2 soloII's ago because I was tired of that awful turbo lag. I go into the corner LFB, no gas, breaking hard, just before I am about to quit breaking, I get on the gas. When I get it right, I am on strong turbo as I leave the bend. I overbreak a little so that as the turbo kicks in, I don't understeer. I think I therefore have a slightly slower speed at the apex then I might otherwise have, but by getting on the tubo sooner, I think it more than makes up for it. I think it will take me 2 or 3 more events to really get it right. I drive my wife's auto tran car alot now so I can get better LFB feel.
| 8Complex | 04-24-2004 03:32 AM |
Not really applicable since you're just wondering about WRX's and STI's, but in RS's the compression is so high that the engine braking is fairly hard and you can just lift and restab the throttle to acheive the desired effect.
| makofoto | 04-24-2004 11:23 PM |
Do you find one has to put the seat a bit further back in order to have room to LFB ?
| afpdl | 04-24-2004 11:46 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by makofoto[/i]
[B] Do you find one has to put the seat a bit further back in order to have room to LFB ? [/B][/QUOTE]
Not for me.
[B] Do you find one has to put the seat a bit further back in order to have room to LFB ? [/B][/QUOTE]
Not for me.
Không có nhận xét nào:
Đăng nhận xét