| skidplatez | 04-23-2001 01:59 PM |
Motor mounts - Illegal in STS ?
I was just reading the SCCA forums and they were talking about how it was dumb that these are not allowed. I have never read anything about these rules before so I was really suprised. Does anybody know the deal and where that rule can be found?
| Strepto | 04-23-2001 02:17 PM |
a good general rule when dealing with the rules is "if it doesn't say you CAN, you CAN'T" I don't have my rule book infront of me so I can't tell you if it says specifically you can use different motor mounts, but I know they are not legal in S, SP, or ST
| Impreza Rider | 04-23-2001 03:20 PM |
[url="http://www.best.com/~mouton/sccasolo/Rules/street_touring.html#17.10."]http://www.best.com/~mouton/sccasolo/Rules/street_touring.html#17.10.[/url] ENGINE
There, they don't even mention mounts. Just that every has to remain unmodified.
Jim
There, they don't even mention mounts. Just that every has to remain unmodified.
Jim
| Sardonic | 04-23-2001 03:34 PM |
I heard something about this being discussed. Apparently the Neon engine mounts are rediculously fragile, and Neon drivers would much rather replace them with hardened mounts once, than keep replacing them with OEMs that break once or twice a season.
| Blindeye_03 | 04-23-2001 07:10 PM |
i sure hope they are legal..i was plannin on getting some before i started autoxing
| DLC | 04-23-2001 09:34 PM |
Why would they be legal?
This is a Touring Class, not Modified or Prepared.
I could see a clause for those whose engine mounts routinely break because of poor engine design characteristics (read: I4 with no balance shafts), but seriously...
This is a Touring Class, not Modified or Prepared.
I could see a clause for those whose engine mounts routinely break because of poor engine design characteristics (read: I4 with no balance shafts), but seriously...
| ChrisDP | 04-23-2001 10:36 PM |
As you've likely seen on SCCA Forums, the issue with allowing modified motor mounts involves the limit to which such a rule could be taken. Someone will find an advantage with the motor mounts, perhaps moving the engine rearward to get better weight distribution. Such a part would be expensive to get custom fabricated, but soon everyone would be buying the part which gives any advantage. Thus, the cost of the sport goes up. However, I do feel really sorry for the Neon guys. Wonder if inserts to stiffen the stock mounts could be made legal and if these would help those guys with mount reliability.
| SteveS | 04-24-2001 04:39 AM |
I am pretty sure that motor mounts are out for STS, as has already been stated.
I had a Neon ACR. The front motor mounts are WORTHLESS and supposedly are meant to tear. One of the best upgrades I did on that car was to replace the front mount with a polyurethane filled mount. Reduced wheel hop, increased response (at least feel), and definitely increased vibration in the vehicle. [img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/wink.gif[/img] <small>Oh yeah, I still ran D-stock with the mount. Nobody complained since I absolutely sucked at the time and wasn't a threat to anyone's precious points.</small>
Steve
[url="http://www.forcefed4.com"]http://www.forcefed4.com[/url]
I had a Neon ACR. The front motor mounts are WORTHLESS and supposedly are meant to tear. One of the best upgrades I did on that car was to replace the front mount with a polyurethane filled mount. Reduced wheel hop, increased response (at least feel), and definitely increased vibration in the vehicle. [img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/wink.gif[/img] <small>Oh yeah, I still ran D-stock with the mount. Nobody complained since I absolutely sucked at the time and wasn't a threat to anyone's precious points.</small>
Steve
[url="http://www.forcefed4.com"]http://www.forcefed4.com[/url]
| bratmantlz | 04-24-2001 05:58 AM |
so are carbon fiber hoods[img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] less weight advantage people say [img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] please[img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]
| Spectre23 | 04-24-2001 06:20 AM |
Don't complain man.... After all, it was your region that set the no carbon fiber hood rule into place. I would have placed it in the "any body kit" rule. Thanks Colorado.
| bratmantlz | 04-24-2001 06:50 AM |
i think its dumb too, please, oh yeah a carbon fiber hood is an advantage[img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] dont sweat me for something i had nothing to do with.
| Thug | 04-24-2001 06:58 AM |
A CF hood is definitely a distinct advantage. It reduces weight in a very important spot.
| bratmantlz | 04-24-2001 07:02 AM |
[img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]
| Patrick L | 04-24-2001 07:34 AM |
I am going to get with my roommate KnuckleDragger. He is a Neon STS driver and knows the STS rules well. He's trying to get the rules changed to allow the better Mopar engine mounts with a harder durometer rubber.
The STS rules are a extension of the SP rules but are modified in STS, STR and SM.
The STS rules are a extension of the SP rules but are modified in STS, STR and SM.
| skidplatez | 04-24-2001 07:58 AM |
You guys that think a Carbon Hood is NOT an advantage either don't race much and/or have never seen a side by side comparison. Do a little research in how much small weight changes can make and then come post you rolly eys.
| bratmantlz | 04-24-2001 08:03 AM |
its a carbon fiber hood= looks show eye candy. i could out drive someone with a CF hood and me with my stock hood. oh no they have a CF center part of his spoiler not fair...waaawaaa[img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/lol.gif[/img]
| skidplatez | 04-24-2001 08:15 AM |
So you're saying that because someone has a CF hood they must not know how to drive?
Nice!
Take two of the same cars that tend towards understeer lighten the front of one and not the other then start doing laps. Your times will be faster in the lighter/better balanced car! There is no other way to argue this!
Nice!
Take two of the same cars that tend towards understeer lighten the front of one and not the other then start doing laps. Your times will be faster in the lighter/better balanced car! There is no other way to argue this!
| DLC | 04-24-2001 08:16 AM |
How much lighter is a CF hood? 15, 20lbs?
You car weighs over 2800 [i]without[/i] any passengers.
That's less than %1 change in weight over the entire front 1/3 of the car and it's not even much higher than the CG.
You just wanna look like those honduhs with CF hoods, admit it [img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
You car weighs over 2800 [i]without[/i] any passengers.
That's less than %1 change in weight over the entire front 1/3 of the car and it's not even much higher than the CG.
You just wanna look like those honduhs with CF hoods, admit it [img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
| skidplatez | 04-24-2001 08:20 AM |
On the same subject I guess Alu lower control arms are illegal too right?
I getting really suprised at how many things that are fairly common on this board are illegal in STS.
I getting really suprised at how many things that are fairly common on this board are illegal in STS.
| skidplatez | 04-24-2001 08:23 AM |
Actually I absolutely HATE the look of CF hoods. But, I would love an Alu hood for the weight savings and Alu lower arms and lightweight bumper reinforments. But now we are really illegal since we lost 100 lbs and are no longer street legal!
| bratmantlz | 04-24-2001 08:39 AM |
there is no fuking way i want to look like a honnnduhhh because my car is performance based. go then show and the RS is already a hell of a looker. so oh well. as for the skill thing i never said a damn thing about them haveing less skills at driving than i. i was actually implying that someone with the hood who maybe could drive would loose to me. [img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/monkey.gif[/img] never compare my RS to a honduh damn people i just posted that one of the poeple here who auto-x said if i as in me brat got a carbon fiber hood they would contest it or complain or what the funk ever. i just wanted to say i dont see why its illegal. IMO [img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/monkey.gif[/img] damn people.
Brian
Brian
| xMetal | 04-24-2001 09:04 AM |
what's wrong with Honda? I like mine just fine.
Boy, you're just getting on everybody's nerves today. [img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
Boy, you're just getting on everybody's nerves today. [img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
| bratmantlz | 04-24-2001 09:16 AM |
BOY!!! damnit hows about everyone has one.. a honduh, more of them than 7-11's!!! if poeple would read my first damn post i just said that carbon hoods are illegal i was told by a auto-xer. i dont agree, they should be legal. i mean damn its a hood. and the honduh thing DLC was the first to state i was trying to look like a damn honda...[img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/mad.gif[/img] god people. since this is now waayyy off topic of illegal motor mounts and my post about not thinking the hood should legal to auto-x with. so i will be the first to say IBTfukingLock. damn [img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] edit: can you tell i am tired?? [img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] oh and xmetal if you were being sarcastic sorry[img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] but that is the truth aboot honduhs i see ten or so with non painted body kits cruising around here 24/7 and its annoying. big azz fart tips etc.
Brian [img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/lildevil.gif[/img]
[This message has been edited by bratmantlz (edited April 24, 2001).]
Brian [img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/lildevil.gif[/img]
[This message has been edited by bratmantlz (edited April 24, 2001).]
| DLC | 04-24-2001 09:59 AM |
I hope you're tired, cause reading your posts is making me dizzy.
You also didn't notice the [img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] at the end of the CF hood remark [img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/tongue.gif[/img]
It is a hood, but it's also a body panel.
Engine mounts should stay illegal. Complain to Mopar if your neon has shifty mounts.
You also didn't notice the [img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] at the end of the CF hood remark [img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/tongue.gif[/img]
It is a hood, but it's also a body panel.
Engine mounts should stay illegal. Complain to Mopar if your neon has shifty mounts.
| bratmantlz | 04-24-2001 10:02 AM |
thats cool DLC [img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] my bad[img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif[/img] but its a hood its for looks and to cover the engine. as i said in my first post i dont think it should be illegal. oh i dont have a neon so i think you were talking to someone else..
Brian
Brian
| Spectre23 | 04-24-2001 10:55 AM |
DLC is right, my car weighs 3080 lbs with my fat ass sitting in it. CF hood save 12 lbs. That is 0.39% weight savings. I am not saying it doesn't help, but lets say that it made just as much impact on time as it does on weight (which it doesn't). But just for fun let's figure that out. The last Autocross I went to I got a time of 35.115. .39% of that is .137 seconds. That would put my time at 34.978. Oh looky there, I still got 4th place! And I guarantee it doen't affect time that much. A guy in our region raced with a CF hood and now is back to legal, times haven't changed a bit, he still kicks our collective asses.
| bratmantlz | 04-24-2001 11:17 AM |
spectre gets it see a testimonial from someone. thank you![img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] no big deal. an advantage...... nope just a good looking hood[img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif[/img]
Brian
Brian
| Thug | 04-25-2001 12:00 AM |
Well there are still more RS's than Integra Type R's there captain.
| Gary (gg) | 04-25-2001 07:35 AM |
The STS class also requires cars to meet Federal emission and safety standards. The CF and Al hoods have not been crash tested. That is why they cannot be used.
| bratmantlz | 04-25-2001 07:45 AM |
its a hood whats it going to do in a crash crumple... doh! oh wow my hood saved my life[img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] cmon people were brucelee with this one?...
| Spectre23 | 04-25-2001 07:52 AM |
No, that is not why they can't be used. It was determined at the national tour in Colorado Spring last year thet the weight savings was significant enough that it could be considered a weight saving mod rather than a body kit mod. That is why the protest was upheld. The commitee said that if it had been 5 lbs or less difference they would have thrown it out.
| jhuang76 | 04-26-2001 08:32 PM |
Maybe SCCA knew it had to make a cut/limit somewhere, and decided that NO major body work will be allowed period. Heck if they started allowing modified hoods, then logically, modified body panels should be just as legal (hey, it's also just for looks too - see the Honda people). Of course, if you happen to replace ALL your sheet metal w/ CF, which also happens to have a wider fender - again, you can claim this is for looks only.
Obviously, this is really out there, but making all those changes WILL give you a definate advantage (unless you really just suck - then the best mod is like an EVO school or road course school).
Anyways, back to the subject, I personally think the current rules regarding the engine/tranny mounts are a little too strict. But, they may change (just like the coilovers used to be - oh great, digressing even more). Just like upgraded suspension, SCCA can enforce something like a "stock mounting point" criteria for stiffened mount which will prevent wild fabricated mounts changing engine/tranny location.
Just my take on things
Obviously, this is really out there, but making all those changes WILL give you a definate advantage (unless you really just suck - then the best mod is like an EVO school or road course school).
Anyways, back to the subject, I personally think the current rules regarding the engine/tranny mounts are a little too strict. But, they may change (just like the coilovers used to be - oh great, digressing even more). Just like upgraded suspension, SCCA can enforce something like a "stock mounting point" criteria for stiffened mount which will prevent wild fabricated mounts changing engine/tranny location.
Just my take on things
| Midwayman | 04-27-2001 10:25 PM |
I thought one of the primary reasons for this rule was to keep prep costs down. I mean CF hoods for us are the better part of a grand. FWIW just a CF hood isnt *that* big of an advantage, but then you could argue that battery relocation isnt either....
Personally Im glad they did it that way. I dont want to use a CF hood.
Personally Im glad they did it that way. I dont want to use a CF hood.
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