| bartolommeff | 03-03-2004 01:09 AM |
new Group N Impreza
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[IMG]http://www.subdriven.com/artman/uploads/001__scaled_600.jpg[/IMG]
| Chaste Automotive | 03-03-2004 03:48 AM |
Already drove one it is very nigce they saved a few kilos from the N9 car. Twin scroll is nice about 380-390 Lbs/ft of torque and active diff which is a bit tricky but very nice. Cage is a little different than last year, interior has some nice new stuff.
| NC2.5RS | 03-03-2004 09:42 PM |
Oooooh.....sexy.
| EHobron | 03-03-2004 11:24 PM |
Are those 17's under there? What are they using for rubber?
| Ver.III | 03-04-2004 12:44 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Chaste Automotive [/i]
[B] Twin scroll is nice about 380-390 Lbs/ft of torque [/B][/QUOTE]
Thats a bit much for a Grp N car ? Considering the 32mm restrictor . The Oz guys says the engine makes more power bottom end but loses more top end compared to the V7 (VF30)
[B] Twin scroll is nice about 380-390 Lbs/ft of torque [/B][/QUOTE]
Thats a bit much for a Grp N car ? Considering the 32mm restrictor . The Oz guys says the engine makes more power bottom end but loses more top end compared to the V7 (VF30)
| WRXMaster | 03-04-2004 02:53 AM |
I though group N cars say they have 300HP but with the restrictor they are around 250HP?
| Tats | 03-04-2004 07:47 AM |
Considering WRC cars make upwards of 400-500lb/ft or torque with a restricter I don't see how theis is "so high".
Tats.
Tats.
| Butt Dyno | 03-04-2004 02:14 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by EHobron [/i]
[B]Are those 17's under there? What are they using for rubber? [/B][/QUOTE]Those are the JDM/EDM STi wheels. IMHO the hottest wheels ever ;) I doubt they are actually rallying w/ them though
john
[B]Are those 17's under there? What are they using for rubber? [/B][/QUOTE]Those are the JDM/EDM STi wheels. IMHO the hottest wheels ever ;) I doubt they are actually rallying w/ them though
john
| John Vanos | 03-04-2004 02:53 PM |
Edited at request of a user
| johnfelstead | 03-04-2004 03:54 PM |
He needs to get with the N10 program then.
The current N10 Impreza is only 45NM lower torque than the WRC spec engine.
Group N (N10 spec)
Power: 270bhp @ 4000rpm Torque: 535Nm @ 3250rpm (394lbft)
WRC spec
Power: 300bhp @ 5500rpm Torque: 580 Nm @ 4000rpm (427lbft)
The current N10 Impreza is only 45NM lower torque than the WRC spec engine.
Group N (N10 spec)
Power: 270bhp @ 4000rpm Torque: 535Nm @ 3250rpm (394lbft)
WRC spec
Power: 300bhp @ 5500rpm Torque: 580 Nm @ 4000rpm (427lbft)
| John Vanos | 03-04-2004 05:12 PM |
REALLY? wow! i find that hard to beleive....I mean...where is the extra speed come from in the WRC cars....diffs and gearbox then? If that is true then I want a group N car! :eek:
| johnfelstead | 03-04-2004 08:29 PM |
Power is always the last thing i change with a new car. Its the brakes and handling that matter most. The WRC cars are incredibly quick because of their chassis development, the engines play a role obviously, but the real speed comes from tyres, dampers, transmition and brake systems.
Those figures for engine power are straight from the horses mouth, they are genuine current spec engine values (well the WRC is really just over 300BHP but they cant say that due to FIA regulations) The N10 Impreza is a big step forward from the N9, and that was a lot better than the N8.
Those figures for engine power are straight from the horses mouth, they are genuine current spec engine values (well the WRC is really just over 300BHP but they cant say that due to FIA regulations) The N10 Impreza is a big step forward from the N9, and that was a lot better than the N8.
| Chaste Automotive | 03-04-2004 09:32 PM |
John you are correct, they saved weight in the N10 and the difference is also in the fact that I drove a car with a top spec engine. John maybe you can chime in on this, the WRC cars and the newer group N cars are very difficult to drive because of the active diffs, you have to drive on the limit or the car will just understeer or spin. I am learning this the hard way right now. I am going to drive a WRC car next month so we will have to see. John I missed you at autosport I lost you Cell number I would love to give you a shout I am going to be in on the 1st through the 6th. Email me your info again.
| bartolommeff | 03-04-2004 09:35 PM |
i have 4 large photos of the same car, should i post them?
| patr | 03-04-2004 10:42 PM |
3 things
1) those numbers being foated around are direct 'published torque claims' - I am not saying that anyone's claims are high, let me just say that those kinds of torgue numbers are a) now being repeated for the very reason they were published, b) are very impressive for a grp n engine and c) are being repeated in many places for the same reasons, because they are impressive and that is something worth publishing. It's like any business marketing its products. You have to remember that the numbers are now being repeated everywhere (including here) because they were being brandished as a 'big accomplishment' and are also part of the marketing program. What fuel was it measured on, was it with FIA cats, etc. ? who knows, maybe so, but the prodrive 'max spec' engines have always been torquey since the 02 car, this is apparently their latest evoloution. Anyhow, this is what STi v3 was getting at, I think.
2) those numbers are beleiveable but they would be in my opinion near the limit of what would be possible, and certainly, you are buying a fully developed engine and ecu combination for significant $$, so why not beleive them, but it is very similar to any other claims by any manufacturer of anything, kind of like 'unbreakable gearbox'. But I doubt you will see that with WRF fuel and cats (but in the USA fuel is free so you can even use TurboMax or whatever you want, so a remapped us engine might even be better).
3) the active diffs are easier, not harder, to drive quickly because you have way better braking, acceleration. The problem most people have is they cant handle the lockup under braking, which is fine if you are really braking hard enough to have all the weight on the front wheels. The active diffs are completely remappable to suit other styles, but the 'brake lock' setup is the quickest on the loose.
1) those numbers being foated around are direct 'published torque claims' - I am not saying that anyone's claims are high, let me just say that those kinds of torgue numbers are a) now being repeated for the very reason they were published, b) are very impressive for a grp n engine and c) are being repeated in many places for the same reasons, because they are impressive and that is something worth publishing. It's like any business marketing its products. You have to remember that the numbers are now being repeated everywhere (including here) because they were being brandished as a 'big accomplishment' and are also part of the marketing program. What fuel was it measured on, was it with FIA cats, etc. ? who knows, maybe so, but the prodrive 'max spec' engines have always been torquey since the 02 car, this is apparently their latest evoloution. Anyhow, this is what STi v3 was getting at, I think.
2) those numbers are beleiveable but they would be in my opinion near the limit of what would be possible, and certainly, you are buying a fully developed engine and ecu combination for significant $$, so why not beleive them, but it is very similar to any other claims by any manufacturer of anything, kind of like 'unbreakable gearbox'. But I doubt you will see that with WRF fuel and cats (but in the USA fuel is free so you can even use TurboMax or whatever you want, so a remapped us engine might even be better).
3) the active diffs are easier, not harder, to drive quickly because you have way better braking, acceleration. The problem most people have is they cant handle the lockup under braking, which is fine if you are really braking hard enough to have all the weight on the front wheels. The active diffs are completely remappable to suit other styles, but the 'brake lock' setup is the quickest on the loose.
| patr | 03-04-2004 11:51 PM |
and a final point worth mentioning is that the grp N mitsus were quicker than their wrc cars many times already this year...
and that the open rules of the wrc cars meaning more inputs/controls over the active diffs makes a big big big huge difference in driveabiilty and performance
instead of just throttle/brake/speed of tranny/speed of engine you can have a lot more sophistication including yaw, wheel differential, gear, etc. etc. etc.
and finally, the more open rules of the wrc cars will also allow their power/torque to be applied over a wider variety of conditions, i.e. higher altitudes, different air oxy density, etc. etc. whilst the group N cars lack the sensors to compensate for anything like that
and that the open rules of the wrc cars meaning more inputs/controls over the active diffs makes a big big big huge difference in driveabiilty and performance
instead of just throttle/brake/speed of tranny/speed of engine you can have a lot more sophistication including yaw, wheel differential, gear, etc. etc. etc.
and finally, the more open rules of the wrc cars will also allow their power/torque to be applied over a wider variety of conditions, i.e. higher altitudes, different air oxy density, etc. etc. whilst the group N cars lack the sensors to compensate for anything like that
| mykrrrr | 03-05-2004 12:38 AM |
Like you'd know anything about a Grp. N car Pat. ;) :p
-mykr.
-mykr.
| Chaste Automotive | 03-05-2004 03:19 AM |
Pat did you get my email about the hewland stuff?
| johnfelstead | 03-05-2004 03:20 PM |
Pat, the current Mitsubishi WRC car is slow for a reason right now. It's running passive transmition systems for the first few rallies to build data to use on the chassis and engine development programs, once they are happy they have what they need from real data gathered against the oposition, they will introduce the active systems.
A local company that i know very well should have their N10 Impreza soon, they curently run an N8 and did have an N9 being built but passed that on so they could buy the N10, it's a big step forward in many areas.
Those N10 figures are for the car running to PWRC spec regulations on control fuel.
The N10 has a diferent active centre diff control strategy to the previous models, the N8 for example is just a manual DCCD setup for gravel use, or a VC setup for tarmac.
Jeff, If you have never driven with active diffs i can understand why it would be dificult for you to drive the car, because its a diferent way of thinking, this is especially so on the WRC spec systems that are very unstable but react to your inputs quickly. Some people also struggle to get a feel for the brakes, the current active WRC spec brakes work via the transmition system in terms of balance setup, to alter the brake bias you alter the diff settings, not a bias bar.
There are a lot of current top spec car drivers who are getting themselves confused and barking up the wrong tree on setups because the options for changes are so great. A lot of people are too laptop oriented and need to go back to basic principles of suspension setup, this is why Mitsubishis logic with the new WRC car is well thought out, it will take a bit of pain at first but will pay dividends, i am sure of that.
YHM Jeff
A local company that i know very well should have their N10 Impreza soon, they curently run an N8 and did have an N9 being built but passed that on so they could buy the N10, it's a big step forward in many areas.
Those N10 figures are for the car running to PWRC spec regulations on control fuel.
The N10 has a diferent active centre diff control strategy to the previous models, the N8 for example is just a manual DCCD setup for gravel use, or a VC setup for tarmac.
Jeff, If you have never driven with active diffs i can understand why it would be dificult for you to drive the car, because its a diferent way of thinking, this is especially so on the WRC spec systems that are very unstable but react to your inputs quickly. Some people also struggle to get a feel for the brakes, the current active WRC spec brakes work via the transmition system in terms of balance setup, to alter the brake bias you alter the diff settings, not a bias bar.
There are a lot of current top spec car drivers who are getting themselves confused and barking up the wrong tree on setups because the options for changes are so great. A lot of people are too laptop oriented and need to go back to basic principles of suspension setup, this is why Mitsubishis logic with the new WRC car is well thought out, it will take a bit of pain at first but will pay dividends, i am sure of that.
YHM Jeff
| T-WREXX | 03-05-2004 05:21 PM |
John how do you feel about the Mitsu WRC car being so different than a current production EVO? From what I've seen about their new car it is radically different than the production car in terms of body structure, suspension, etc. After hearing your explanation about them gathering data it really makes sense that they won't push the car too hard until they have all the final data results. Personally, I don't like the fact that the WRC car doesn't represent the EVO VIII very well, it's almost like cheating. In any case, they won't be able to catch Petter, no matter how hard they try. :D
| johnfelstead | 03-07-2004 04:23 PM |
the EVO is no more diferent than the Impreza WRC is diferent from a production Impreza. As long as it meets the technical regulations i dont have a problem with any car in the series. It is an ugly mother though. :D
| EJ20K | 03-08-2004 10:03 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by johnfelstead [/i]
[B] (...) A local company that i know very well should have their N10 Impreza soon, they curently run an N8 and did have an N9 being built but passed that on so they could buy the N10, it's a big step forward in many areas.
Those N10 figures are for the car running to PWRC spec regulations on control fuel.
The N10 has a diferent active centre diff control strategy to the previous models, the N8 for example is just a manual DCCD setup for gravel use, or a VC setup for tarmac. If you have never driven with active diffs i can understand why it would be dificult for you to drive the car, because its a diferent way of thinking, this is especially so on the WRC spec systems that are very unstable but react to your inputs quickly. Some people also struggle to get a feel for the brakes, the current active WRC spec brakes work via the transmition system in terms of balance setup, to alter the brake bias you alter the diff settings, not a bias bar. (...)
[/B][/QUOTE]
John we have seen here the EMCD centre diff of the STi ver 7,8 and 9 and all of them are the same. The only thing that has changed is basically the software development to run the actively ;).
In fact while on the STi ver 7 (bug eye) both the VC and the EMCD centre diff were homologated, on the STi ver 8 & 9 the homologation form states: "Type of centre differential limitation: EMCD / Planetary Gear with EMCD" (A/N 5656) therefore the VC unit can no longer be used on the group N STi ver 8/9 :( unless the is a variant option which has been lately published.
We mainly use MOTEC M800's on our latest group N cars, and now we have installed the latest software and have started the tests on a STi ver 8 with an active diff. For the time being the only inputs that the unit will have are brake, TPS, handbrake. Probably Prodrive are also reading the steering wheel position, and some of the ABS sensors already .....
Carlos H.
[B] (...) A local company that i know very well should have their N10 Impreza soon, they curently run an N8 and did have an N9 being built but passed that on so they could buy the N10, it's a big step forward in many areas.
Those N10 figures are for the car running to PWRC spec regulations on control fuel.
The N10 has a diferent active centre diff control strategy to the previous models, the N8 for example is just a manual DCCD setup for gravel use, or a VC setup for tarmac. If you have never driven with active diffs i can understand why it would be dificult for you to drive the car, because its a diferent way of thinking, this is especially so on the WRC spec systems that are very unstable but react to your inputs quickly. Some people also struggle to get a feel for the brakes, the current active WRC spec brakes work via the transmition system in terms of balance setup, to alter the brake bias you alter the diff settings, not a bias bar. (...)
[/B][/QUOTE]
John we have seen here the EMCD centre diff of the STi ver 7,8 and 9 and all of them are the same. The only thing that has changed is basically the software development to run the actively ;).
In fact while on the STi ver 7 (bug eye) both the VC and the EMCD centre diff were homologated, on the STi ver 8 & 9 the homologation form states: "Type of centre differential limitation: EMCD / Planetary Gear with EMCD" (A/N 5656) therefore the VC unit can no longer be used on the group N STi ver 8/9 :( unless the is a variant option which has been lately published.
We mainly use MOTEC M800's on our latest group N cars, and now we have installed the latest software and have started the tests on a STi ver 8 with an active diff. For the time being the only inputs that the unit will have are brake, TPS, handbrake. Probably Prodrive are also reading the steering wheel position, and some of the ABS sensors already .....
Carlos H.
| T-WREXX | 03-08-2004 11:14 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by johnfelstead [/i]
[B]the EVO is no more diferent than the Impreza WRC is diferent from a production Impreza. As long as it meets the technical regulations i dont have a problem with any car in the series. It is an ugly mother though. :D [/B][/QUOTE]
LOL, yes it is ugly, I agree. :lol: I'm sure it does meet the technical specs of the WRC, but it's a 2dr coupe and the the production EVO is a 4dr. I don't know, I realize a race version of any car is going to be quite a bit different than it's production counterpart, but the new WRC EVO doesn't even try to be anything like the production car. I realize they weren't very competitive with their last car, so maybe they thought it necessary to radically change the car design?
[B]the EVO is no more diferent than the Impreza WRC is diferent from a production Impreza. As long as it meets the technical regulations i dont have a problem with any car in the series. It is an ugly mother though. :D [/B][/QUOTE]
LOL, yes it is ugly, I agree. :lol: I'm sure it does meet the technical specs of the WRC, but it's a 2dr coupe and the the production EVO is a 4dr. I don't know, I realize a race version of any car is going to be quite a bit different than it's production counterpart, but the new WRC EVO doesn't even try to be anything like the production car. I realize they weren't very competitive with their last car, so maybe they thought it necessary to radically change the car design?
| patr | 03-10-2004 06:38 PM |
john i think you are getting my post confused with the other guys post.
I was explaining to him why it might seem hard for him to use the active diffs. I have been driving active diff cars with programmable maps since early 01 (final version of the original chassis i.e. v6) (and continuously since, also in the US and canada). the prodrive cars back then were using a system very similar to what is beign used now, just different ecu. the newer cars have more sensors so you can do more.
-pat
I was explaining to him why it might seem hard for him to use the active diffs. I have been driving active diff cars with programmable maps since early 01 (final version of the original chassis i.e. v6) (and continuously since, also in the US and canada). the prodrive cars back then were using a system very similar to what is beign used now, just different ecu. the newer cars have more sensors so you can do more.
-pat
| johnfelstead | 03-10-2004 08:00 PM |
Edited my post to make it more obvious who i am talking to. You dont have to fill me in on what you have driven pat. :)
| johnfelstead | 03-10-2004 08:12 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by T-WREXX [/i]
[B]LOL, yes it is ugly, I agree. :lol: I'm sure it does meet the technical specs of the WRC, but it's a 2dr coupe and the the production EVO is a 4dr. I don't know, I realize a race version of any car is going to be quite a bit different than it's production counterpart, but the new WRC EVO doesn't even try to be anything like the production car. I realize they weren't very competitive with their last car, so maybe they thought it necessary to radically change the car design? [/B][/QUOTE]
Its a 4 door
[img]http://www.mitsubishi-motors.com/motorsports/e/04wrc/mex/photo/pre2m.jpg[/img]
Just an ugly one.
They didnt compete in 2003 because the 2002 car was so poor they decided to start again from scratch, they are now in an intensive program to make the 2005 car competitive using 2004 as a test season for their new designs.
[B]LOL, yes it is ugly, I agree. :lol: I'm sure it does meet the technical specs of the WRC, but it's a 2dr coupe and the the production EVO is a 4dr. I don't know, I realize a race version of any car is going to be quite a bit different than it's production counterpart, but the new WRC EVO doesn't even try to be anything like the production car. I realize they weren't very competitive with their last car, so maybe they thought it necessary to radically change the car design? [/B][/QUOTE]
Its a 4 door
[img]http://www.mitsubishi-motors.com/motorsports/e/04wrc/mex/photo/pre2m.jpg[/img]
Just an ugly one.
They didnt compete in 2003 because the 2002 car was so poor they decided to start again from scratch, they are now in an intensive program to make the 2005 car competitive using 2004 as a test season for their new designs.
| EJ20K | 03-10-2004 09:13 PM |
Pat do u think the 20kgf viscous centre diff to be any good on the newer STi's ?
Although we do have the new software to control the EMCD we have not had the time yet to test it :(
Carlos H.
Although we do have the new software to control the EMCD we have not had the time yet to test it :(
Carlos H.
| patr | 03-11-2004 03:34 PM |
first of all, whomever posted that you cant use the viscous on the bug'eye (v7) impreza is wrong. You can, but only with the tarmac brakes, or with a non'sti motor. In fact, a big �weakness�of the bug eye car is that in tarmac trim, you dont have the emcd. You can�t.
As far as the diffs go, you have to choose what you want based on budget etc. A lot of people do not knpow how to set up the active diffs properly and trust me it took a long time to be able to set them up properly (as opposed to using someone else�s map ' which will never be �perfect�for you, but probably better for you until you do say 750-1000kms of active diff work)
Most people are quicker with the non'active setup. When I say this, I mean, most people as in those who are not used or versed in the active diff setups, because as john mentioned they get lost in the setup. As well, a lot of drivers have a hard time understanding that with the optimal active setups, they will not be able to turn in unless they are really and honestly braking HARD and those hwo left foot brake with a mostly brake bias styles as opposed to true weight transfer lose all their marbles when going to active diffs with high brake lockup.
Without the ability to tune the emcd it is almost worthless unless you have a good map and you can drive with it.
I would say stick with the visco if you have the choice until you feel that you �wished the diff would do this�with a certain amount of certainty, and then go and get the emcd and program it as such. That way you can also use other people�s maps. When I started out using the active cars I just used someone else�s setups until I figured out how to be faster with small adjustments, or to suit the conditions. Then I went backwards for a while trying to make my own maps. You need testing miles to do this. Trust me when I say, the engineer (the first time) worked with me on a lot of maps from well known people and we figured out exactly why we wanted this and that.
For example, for ice and snow (studless) we have done over several hundred km testing on diff maps alone. That is because we had to ' because no one else in the world runs on true studless ice, and is really what motivated me to move out of using supplied maps or other driver�s maps. I can say, for example, that with my limited experience on tarmac, if I were to do a tarmac WRC event, I would probably start with someone else�s map, despite me having done maps for other people and worked in that role as a test driver for other people�s maps. I am saying that, because I am trying to relay how much experience you will need to set up a proper diff map. You might find one that works for you, but in reality, it is probably a lot slower than you can be. One other thing to realize, is that, the easy to drive maps cansometimes be SIGNIFICANTLY slower than the harder to drive maps (for those starting out).
I�m not going to say much more than that !
As far as the diffs go, you have to choose what you want based on budget etc. A lot of people do not knpow how to set up the active diffs properly and trust me it took a long time to be able to set them up properly (as opposed to using someone else�s map ' which will never be �perfect�for you, but probably better for you until you do say 750-1000kms of active diff work)
Most people are quicker with the non'active setup. When I say this, I mean, most people as in those who are not used or versed in the active diff setups, because as john mentioned they get lost in the setup. As well, a lot of drivers have a hard time understanding that with the optimal active setups, they will not be able to turn in unless they are really and honestly braking HARD and those hwo left foot brake with a mostly brake bias styles as opposed to true weight transfer lose all their marbles when going to active diffs with high brake lockup.
Without the ability to tune the emcd it is almost worthless unless you have a good map and you can drive with it.
I would say stick with the visco if you have the choice until you feel that you �wished the diff would do this�with a certain amount of certainty, and then go and get the emcd and program it as such. That way you can also use other people�s maps. When I started out using the active cars I just used someone else�s setups until I figured out how to be faster with small adjustments, or to suit the conditions. Then I went backwards for a while trying to make my own maps. You need testing miles to do this. Trust me when I say, the engineer (the first time) worked with me on a lot of maps from well known people and we figured out exactly why we wanted this and that.
For example, for ice and snow (studless) we have done over several hundred km testing on diff maps alone. That is because we had to ' because no one else in the world runs on true studless ice, and is really what motivated me to move out of using supplied maps or other driver�s maps. I can say, for example, that with my limited experience on tarmac, if I were to do a tarmac WRC event, I would probably start with someone else�s map, despite me having done maps for other people and worked in that role as a test driver for other people�s maps. I am saying that, because I am trying to relay how much experience you will need to set up a proper diff map. You might find one that works for you, but in reality, it is probably a lot slower than you can be. One other thing to realize, is that, the easy to drive maps cansometimes be SIGNIFICANTLY slower than the harder to drive maps (for those starting out).
I�m not going to say much more than that !
| EJ20K | 03-11-2004 03:51 PM |
thanx for the reply Pat.
Basically I was asking if it was possible to use the viscous centre diff on the newer STi ver 8/9 (twin scroll turbo units) ..... and asked about this because we do not have the time or budget to test the activite diff (we do have the software to modify it but have no experience what so ever) like u pointed out:
[quote]I would say stick with the visco if you have the choice until you feel that you �wished the diff would do this�with a certain amount of certainty, and then go and get the emcd and program it as such[/quote]
we would like to stick with the visco unit, but don't know if the homologation allows the use of the visco unit on the STi ver 8/9.
Cheers,
Carlos Hiraoka
Basically I was asking if it was possible to use the viscous centre diff on the newer STi ver 8/9 (twin scroll turbo units) ..... and asked about this because we do not have the time or budget to test the activite diff (we do have the software to modify it but have no experience what so ever) like u pointed out:
[quote]I would say stick with the visco if you have the choice until you feel that you �wished the diff would do this�with a certain amount of certainty, and then go and get the emcd and program it as such[/quote]
we would like to stick with the visco unit, but don't know if the homologation allows the use of the visco unit on the STi ver 8/9.
Cheers,
Carlos Hiraoka
| EJ20K | 03-14-2004 09:51 PM |
a little off topic, but very very happy with the result of a fellow peruvian, Ramon Ferreyros :D, who came 2nd on the N4 class in the Rally of Mexico, in a STi ver 8 car which has been entirely developed in South America (suspension is made in Argentina, and centre diff control is a little different from that of Pectel, etc.) ..... and also proved to be faster at least on this rally than Arai's STi ;) ..... hopefully Ramon will have the budget next year to contest again on the PCWRC with a 100% south american team :D.
Carlos H.
Carlos H.
| Chaste Automotive | 03-15-2004 01:10 AM |
Carlos with the N9/N10 car looking at the Homologation papers i do not see a VO for Viscous diff.
| EJ20K | 03-15-2004 09:49 AM |
Thanx for the reply .....
I do understand that on the homologation papers of the N9/N10 (A/N 5656) the viscous centre unit is not mentioned, but on the homologation papers of the earlier STi's which are already using the EMCD I haven't seen the EMCD mentioned, not even as a variant option .....
homologation A 5650 regarding transmission / power train:
[IMG]http://www.subaru-sti.co.jp/GRN/homologation/data/a5650/a5650_14.jpg[/IMG]
homologation A 5650 regarding transmission / power train:
[IMG]http://www.subaru-sti.co.jp/GRN/homologation/data/n5650/n5650_07.jpg[/IMG]
I do understand that on the homologation papers of the N9/N10 (A/N 5656) the viscous centre unit is not mentioned, but on the homologation papers of the earlier STi's which are already using the EMCD I haven't seen the EMCD mentioned, not even as a variant option .....
homologation A 5650 regarding transmission / power train:
[IMG]http://www.subaru-sti.co.jp/GRN/homologation/data/a5650/a5650_14.jpg[/IMG]
homologation A 5650 regarding transmission / power train:
[IMG]http://www.subaru-sti.co.jp/GRN/homologation/data/n5650/n5650_07.jpg[/IMG]
| johnfelstead | 03-15-2004 10:23 AM |
did you contact David Leach at prodrive as i sugested carlos?
| EJ20K | 03-15-2004 10:27 AM |
yep ..... YHM ;)
Carlos H.
Carlos H.
| EJ20K | 03-16-2004 12:45 PM |
btt.
| patr | 03-16-2004 07:36 PM |
I havent posted a reply because I am not a rules interpreter, but Carlos, your are incorrect in your assessment.
The Viscous is mentioned in the GD (bugeye) impreza (which is not N9 anyways why do people use prodrive numbers for stuff I have no idea - but if you were it would be N8), and so is the emcd, in the VOs where they are and and not where they aren't permitted.
The emcd is mentioned in the ealier papers for ealier cars (i.e. v6), where they are and aren't permitted.
You need to read the papers more carefully. If you are independently building a car to Group N regulations for the first time you will need to be very careful and be sure to obtain information from correct sources, (i.e. FIA or Japan) and not third party no matter how expereinced you think they might be, and definitely I would not rely internet heresay (as in this)! Hence my reluctance to reply to your questions. You can read the papers, and it should be perfectly clear to you what the center diff situation is for the 03/04 STi. If you don't see any mention of a particular part, then you can't use it.
The Viscous is mentioned in the GD (bugeye) impreza (which is not N9 anyways why do people use prodrive numbers for stuff I have no idea - but if you were it would be N8), and so is the emcd, in the VOs where they are and and not where they aren't permitted.
The emcd is mentioned in the ealier papers for ealier cars (i.e. v6), where they are and aren't permitted.
You need to read the papers more carefully. If you are independently building a car to Group N regulations for the first time you will need to be very careful and be sure to obtain information from correct sources, (i.e. FIA or Japan) and not third party no matter how expereinced you think they might be, and definitely I would not rely internet heresay (as in this)! Hence my reluctance to reply to your questions. You can read the papers, and it should be perfectly clear to you what the center diff situation is for the 03/04 STi. If you don't see any mention of a particular part, then you can't use it.
| EJ20K | 03-16-2004 11:33 PM |
Pat,
Thanx for your reply ..... we have built several group N cars but our experience is limited to the earlier GC8 (upto STi ver 6) rally cars (which are still very competitive an are allowed to weight upto 200 kg. less than a bugeye;)), and that is why we are having trouble with the new cars. Still waiting for a reply from Japan which should solve our question.
Carlos H.
Thanx for your reply ..... we have built several group N cars but our experience is limited to the earlier GC8 (upto STi ver 6) rally cars (which are still very competitive an are allowed to weight upto 200 kg. less than a bugeye;)), and that is why we are having trouble with the new cars. Still waiting for a reply from Japan which should solve our question.
Carlos H.
| patr | 03-17-2004 12:17 AM |
you shouldn't need the reply from japan... you have read the a papers and the n papers, right ?
forget everything you think you already know. forget it.
re-read them.
what is listed, you can use, what is not listed, you cant use.
forget everything you think you already know. forget it.
re-read them.
what is listed, you can use, what is not listed, you cant use.
| Chaste Automotive | 03-17-2004 01:09 AM |
The homologation papers are very clear as Pat has mentioned.
| patr | 03-28-2004 11:07 PM |
carlos you are looking at the wrong stuff
1) the emcd *is* mentioned in the correct VOs for the v7 sti type RA, which is 5621 03/03, *not* 5650
unless you wamt to make a 5650 car...
1) the emcd *is* mentioned in the correct VOs for the v7 sti type RA, which is 5621 03/03, *not* 5650
unless you wamt to make a 5650 car...
| EJ20K | 05-28-2004 10:33 PM |
long time .....
we are using EMCD in our STi ver 8 cars, and it doesn't seem to be that hard, not at least with the new Motec software. We got our base maps from a fellow peruvian, Ramon Ferreyros who used to be a regular in the PCWRC and this year will only be competing in three events.
We started with the map he used in the Rally of Mexico, were he came 2nd after Dani Sola and was the best group N STi ;).
His next rally in the PCWRC is Argentina, and hopefully we will se the debut of the new EVO 8 MR :eek:
Carlos H.
we are using EMCD in our STi ver 8 cars, and it doesn't seem to be that hard, not at least with the new Motec software. We got our base maps from a fellow peruvian, Ramon Ferreyros who used to be a regular in the PCWRC and this year will only be competing in three events.
We started with the map he used in the Rally of Mexico, were he came 2nd after Dani Sola and was the best group N STi ;).
His next rally in the PCWRC is Argentina, and hopefully we will se the debut of the new EVO 8 MR :eek:
Carlos H.
| Chaste Automotive | 05-29-2004 01:08 AM |
liike Pat mentioned you are looking for the 5621 not 5650. Good luck, if you ever want to run Rally GB we do have a rental car available.
Pat nice to meet you at Rim and nice result, we are thinking about running a CDN round any suggestions?
Pat nice to meet you at Rim and nice result, we are thinking about running a CDN round any suggestions?
| EJ20K | 05-30-2004 04:05 AM |
thanx for the offer, but guess we will be going with our own built cars, at least the result in Mexico was excellent, and hopefully the result in Argentina will be good too ..... will be interesting what does STi find in the tests they have programed with the Barattero Team in Argentina after the rally ;) .....
Carlos Hiraoka
Carlos Hiraoka
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