| ChrisW | 10-04-2003 11:56 PM |
Villeneuve dropped by BAR-Honda
�
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[QUOTE]
Former world champion Jacques Villeneuve was facing the end of his Formula One career on Saturday after his manager Craig Pollock claimed that the Canadian had been dropped from the BAR-Honda team.
[/QUOTE] [URL=http://f1.racing-live.com/en/headlines/news/detail/031004175051.shtml[/url]buh bye Villeneuve![/URL]
[IMG]http://mywebpages.comcast.net/kaisander/other/wave.gif[/IMG]
Former world champion Jacques Villeneuve was facing the end of his Formula One career on Saturday after his manager Craig Pollock claimed that the Canadian had been dropped from the BAR-Honda team.
[/QUOTE] [URL=http://f1.racing-live.com/en/headlines/news/detail/031004175051.shtml[/url]buh bye Villeneuve![/URL]
[IMG]http://mywebpages.comcast.net/kaisander/other/wave.gif[/IMG]
| cvalle-sd | 10-05-2003 12:19 AM |
Bummer? It's only because of Pollock that JV got shackled to that dead horse of a team in the first place. He threw the rest of his F1 career away for that loser machine. I'm glad he got paid, because he sure never got a car. If he can't get another F1 ride, then hopefully he can get a top-level ride in sports cars, ALMS, etc. I like JV, and I feel like his mis-manager led him down the garden path for a payday. Sure, he'll never have to work again, but he'll not really have a chance to, either.
| Kitsune | 10-05-2003 12:39 AM |
It's more about Honda's desire to put a Japanese driver into F1. Which, we've all seen how succesful that has been. Maybe Honda and BAR should concentrate on building a car that is not crap. Button can not even get a decent season out of his car, yet Villneuve seems to get the blame for the team's lack of success.
| DrBiggly | 10-05-2003 02:07 AM |
Did they give any word on who would be replacing JV?
| nhluhr | 10-05-2003 02:09 AM |
it's his attitude, really. he's an outright jerk.
anybody see that race (one of the first couple this season) where villeneuve said, after qualifying one position in front of teammate, button: "If i can't beat jemson button, i just don't belong in formula 1"
what a jerk!
and then in the race, button was called in for his pitstop but villeneuve darted into pit lane in front of him and took his stop, forcing button to wait for a full pitstop before jacques's dumb self got out of the way.
i say GOOD RIDDANCE!
anybody see that race (one of the first couple this season) where villeneuve said, after qualifying one position in front of teammate, button: "If i can't beat jemson button, i just don't belong in formula 1"
what a jerk!
and then in the race, button was called in for his pitstop but villeneuve darted into pit lane in front of him and took his stop, forcing button to wait for a full pitstop before jacques's dumb self got out of the way.
i say GOOD RIDDANCE!
| artkevin | 10-05-2003 02:45 AM |
Takuma Sato is in JV's seat almost for sure. Taco is a good driver as you could see from his Japnese drive last year with Jordan but JV has got to be better. He just doesn't do himself any favors with his attitude. I am glad to see that F1 has some people with opinions but he chooses not to do any PR work and when you have a giant like Honda backing your team it would be good to do apperances and things of that nature. I hope he can find another F1 drive but all the good seats (Ferrari, Williams, Mclaren and even Toyota) are rock solid for now. So sorry, bye bye JV
KP
KP
| Wheels | 10-05-2003 08:26 AM |
Button is a way better driver. Look at how well he did this weekend and every other weekend this season. Kids class. I hope Ralf leaves Williams soon so Button can learn from Monty!
| Choose | 10-05-2003 09:01 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by artkevin [/i]
[B]Takuma Sato is in JV's seat almost for sure. Taco is a good driver as you could see from his Japnese drive last year with Jordan but JV has got to be better. He just doesn't do himself any favors with his attitude. I am glad to see that F1 has some people with opinions but he chooses not to do any PR work and when you have a giant like Honda backing your team it would be good to do apperances and things of that nature. I hope he can find another F1 drive but all the good seats (Ferrari, Williams, Mclaren and even Toyota) are rock solid for now. So sorry, bye bye JV
KP [/B][/QUOTE]
The rumors I've heard about is that he could go to Williams..are Montoya and R. Schumacher under contract for next year?
[B]Takuma Sato is in JV's seat almost for sure. Taco is a good driver as you could see from his Japnese drive last year with Jordan but JV has got to be better. He just doesn't do himself any favors with his attitude. I am glad to see that F1 has some people with opinions but he chooses not to do any PR work and when you have a giant like Honda backing your team it would be good to do apperances and things of that nature. I hope he can find another F1 drive but all the good seats (Ferrari, Williams, Mclaren and even Toyota) are rock solid for now. So sorry, bye bye JV
KP [/B][/QUOTE]
The rumors I've heard about is that he could go to Williams..are Montoya and R. Schumacher under contract for next year?
| mykrrrr | 10-05-2003 10:20 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Choose [/i]
[B]
The rumors I've heard about is that he could go to Williams..are Montoya and R. Schumacher under contract for next year? [/B][/QUOTE]
Who??? JV or Tako???
I'd say JPM is locked in for '04 for sure with the drives he's given Williams this year. I think RS is there also but who knows.
-mykr.
[B]
The rumors I've heard about is that he could go to Williams..are Montoya and R. Schumacher under contract for next year? [/B][/QUOTE]
Who??? JV or Tako???
I'd say JPM is locked in for '04 for sure with the drives he's given Williams this year. I think RS is there also but who knows.
-mykr.
| StuBeck | 10-05-2003 10:44 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by nhluhr [/i]
[B]it's his attitude, really. he's an outright jerk.
anybody see that race (one of the first couple this season) where villeneuve said, after qualifying one position in front of teammate, button: "If i can't beat jenson button, i just don't belong in formula 1"
what a jerk!
and then in the race, button was called in for his pitstop but villeneuve darted into pit lane in front of him and took his stop, forcing button to wait for a full pitstop before jacques's dumb self got out of the way.
i say GOOD RIDDANCE! [/B][/QUOTE]
Just so you know, your info isn't really correct.
He said that at the start of the year, that if he couldn't beat him he didn't belong in F1, not after beating button in qualifying.
There was a miscommunication in that race as well, Villeneuve thought he was supposed to pit, so he did. He didn't know that Button was supposed to pit and then decided to pit based on screwing up his teammate.
[B]it's his attitude, really. he's an outright jerk.
anybody see that race (one of the first couple this season) where villeneuve said, after qualifying one position in front of teammate, button: "If i can't beat jenson button, i just don't belong in formula 1"
what a jerk!
and then in the race, button was called in for his pitstop but villeneuve darted into pit lane in front of him and took his stop, forcing button to wait for a full pitstop before jacques's dumb self got out of the way.
i say GOOD RIDDANCE! [/B][/QUOTE]
Just so you know, your info isn't really correct.
He said that at the start of the year, that if he couldn't beat him he didn't belong in F1, not after beating button in qualifying.
There was a miscommunication in that race as well, Villeneuve thought he was supposed to pit, so he did. He didn't know that Button was supposed to pit and then decided to pit based on screwing up his teammate.
| Choose | 10-05-2003 11:04 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by mykrrrr [/i]
[B]
Who??? JV or Tako???
-mykr. [/B][/QUOTE]
JV
[B]
Who??? JV or Tako???
-mykr. [/B][/QUOTE]
JV
| artkevin | 10-05-2003 11:44 AM |
I was at the Grand Prix Tours party on Saturday night at the USGP and James Allen (ITV) and Matt Bishop (F1 Racing Magazine) kept discussing how it is basically a sure deal that JPM will switch for Coulthards seat at Mclaren in 2005 but that there is a real chance that he might so it in '04. For JPM's sake he should stay until '05 becuase the FW25 is at the top of its class and there is no indication that FW26 will be any different but the Mclaren MP418 is a dead duck but they will have it turned around by '05. If he switches then he'll go from on of the best cars on the grid to one of the other best cars on the grid, in other words, he won't pull a JV. And as far as I can tell Jenson Button is BAR long term hope becuase David Richards loves him and his PR skills. When he gets Takuma he'll love that to becuase he is Japense lives in England and speaks great english and Japense so he can pander to both markets.
KP
KP
| cvalle-sd | 10-05-2003 12:15 PM |
It troubles me that Honda is worrying about pandering to markets with a lesser driver while their car sucks. If (when) their campaign doesn't churn out...whatever they are trying to churn out - massive profits and the like - what is their stance toward F1 going to be? They'll leave again, like they left before. Success Sells.
| esteve | 10-05-2003 04:36 PM |
I remember years back at Long Beach when JV was in Formula Atlantic, I met him and he seemed like a genuinely nice guy. He came up to the top of the stands where I was at to get a view of the track so I went up to him and we chatted for a bit. I told him how I was a big fan of his father. He was really cool.
| johnfelstead | 10-05-2003 05:05 PM |
Oh Dear, you were subjected to James Allen, that guy sucks big style. :D:disco: :huh:
| artkevin | 10-05-2003 07:05 PM |
James Allen wasn't to bad but he didn't have all that much to say. He just kinda talked to Matt Bishop and waited for him to make a good point. I also don't have to listen to him since I don't get ITV in the states.
| AndyRoo | 10-05-2003 11:32 PM |
JV is a douche.
I'd rather have Takuma driving for me. That way I dont wonder why I'm wasting a gajillion dollars for a very disapointing driver.
I'd rather have Takuma driving for me. That way I dont wonder why I'm wasting a gajillion dollars for a very disapointing driver.
| Dolphin Overton | 10-05-2003 11:57 PM |
:lol: ^
| HomerJay | 10-06-2003 03:47 AM |
You can say what you want about his character and him being an a-hole, but the guy has won a world championship. How many other guys in the field can say that. What have these other drivers proven? I'm not a big fan of JV but at least the guys is a proven winner.
| wistful | 10-06-2003 09:07 AM |
in a car that, at the time, clearly outclassed the field. what IS impressive is Schumacher stickin it to him in a Ferrari that was slower.
Don
Don
| Chromer | 10-06-2003 01:36 PM |
So.... How did JV's team mate finish that season. Same car, right?
Jaques: Seven wins. 81 points
Frentzen: One win, 47 points.
(source: [url]http://www.f1db.com/driver/id/10300/season/1997[/url])
Yah. All car.
Jaques: Seven wins. 81 points
Frentzen: One win, 47 points.
(source: [url]http://www.f1db.com/driver/id/10300/season/1997[/url])
Yah. All car.
| FSelekler | 10-06-2003 03:20 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Chromer [/i]
[B]So.... How did JV's team mate finish that season. Same car, right?
Jaques: Seven wins. 81 points
Frentzen: One win, 47 points.
(source: [url]http://www.f1db.com/driver/id/10300/season/1997[/url])
Yah. All car. [/B][/QUOTE]
In F1 its never "all car" otherwise the drivers won't make that much :)
However, he did have one of the best cars and JV knew how to set it up. But since then, he has not come down from the clouds and all these years he has not really shined. Since it is never "all car" that also applies when you don't have a great car. In F1, you are only a great potential when you get a championship, but if you can continue it or at least be in the top 5-6 independent of the vehicle you are provided, then you are truly one of the best drivers. JV should have showed his talent much more frequently than he has during last 5 seasons.
And since Button is usually out-qualifying him and is ahead in points than JV, basically in the same car, then clearly there is no justification to pay JV that much money and keep Sato out. Sato will give equal or similar performance.
[B]So.... How did JV's team mate finish that season. Same car, right?
Jaques: Seven wins. 81 points
Frentzen: One win, 47 points.
(source: [url]http://www.f1db.com/driver/id/10300/season/1997[/url])
Yah. All car. [/B][/QUOTE]
In F1 its never "all car" otherwise the drivers won't make that much :)
However, he did have one of the best cars and JV knew how to set it up. But since then, he has not come down from the clouds and all these years he has not really shined. Since it is never "all car" that also applies when you don't have a great car. In F1, you are only a great potential when you get a championship, but if you can continue it or at least be in the top 5-6 independent of the vehicle you are provided, then you are truly one of the best drivers. JV should have showed his talent much more frequently than he has during last 5 seasons.
And since Button is usually out-qualifying him and is ahead in points than JV, basically in the same car, then clearly there is no justification to pay JV that much money and keep Sato out. Sato will give equal or similar performance.
| jmott | 10-07-2003 08:58 AM |
they need to let me drive
I'll do it for a mere 70k a year
=)
Im sure I can lose just as well as JV!
I'll do it for a mere 70k a year
=)
Im sure I can lose just as well as JV!
| cvalle-sd | 10-07-2003 10:40 AM |
Name a good driver in a crap car that does/has done well...?
I'll give you a example of a crap driver in a good car doing better than you'd expect, and still disappointing - DC.
My point being a good car, in the hands of practically any F1-caliber driver is a threat. You can negate the ability of even a driving genius in a crap car, however. The technology allows the driver ability to create a good performance. Even the best jockey can't win the triple crown on a donkey.
I'll give you a example of a crap driver in a good car doing better than you'd expect, and still disappointing - DC.
My point being a good car, in the hands of practically any F1-caliber driver is a threat. You can negate the ability of even a driving genius in a crap car, however. The technology allows the driver ability to create a good performance. Even the best jockey can't win the triple crown on a donkey.
| jmott | 10-07-2003 11:56 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by cvalle-sd [/i]
[B]Name a good driver in a crap car that does/has done well...?
I'll give you a example of a crap driver in a good car doing better than you'd expect, and still disappointing - DC.
My point being a good car, in the hands of practically any F1-caliber driver is a threat. You can negate the ability of even a driving genius in a crap car, however. The technology allows the driver ability to create a good performance. Even the best jockey can't win the triple crown on a donkey. [/B][/QUOTE]
take a look at race results when it has rained
these tend to expose the good drivers
[B]Name a good driver in a crap car that does/has done well...?
I'll give you a example of a crap driver in a good car doing better than you'd expect, and still disappointing - DC.
My point being a good car, in the hands of practically any F1-caliber driver is a threat. You can negate the ability of even a driving genius in a crap car, however. The technology allows the driver ability to create a good performance. Even the best jockey can't win the triple crown on a donkey. [/B][/QUOTE]
take a look at race results when it has rained
these tend to expose the good drivers
| Dr. WOT | 10-07-2003 12:23 PM |
There is no debating JV's talent... the guy is a great racer and he's as fast as anybody. Unfortunately there is also no debating that his performance over the past couple of years has been listless.
If you're going to start assigning blame to BAR please keep in mind that it was JV who refused to give up even a shred of this princely salary which the team needed for R&D. This made no sense, didn't he want a better car???
Perhaps if he was consistently faster than his teammates that would be one thing, but since his world championship he has been unimpressive and this year he has been thoroughly outclassed by Jenson.
I would love to see the old, hungry JV in F1, but if all we're going to get is an overpaid, underperforming loud mouth, then please... Jacques Villeneuve go away!!!
If you're going to start assigning blame to BAR please keep in mind that it was JV who refused to give up even a shred of this princely salary which the team needed for R&D. This made no sense, didn't he want a better car???
Perhaps if he was consistently faster than his teammates that would be one thing, but since his world championship he has been unimpressive and this year he has been thoroughly outclassed by Jenson.
I would love to see the old, hungry JV in F1, but if all we're going to get is an overpaid, underperforming loud mouth, then please... Jacques Villeneuve go away!!!
| gtguy | 10-07-2003 12:35 PM |
Villeneuve joins Damon Hill on the all-overrated team. Good riddance. In '97, M. Schumacher took the drivers' championship to the final race, and would have won it had his car not gone south (causing him to commit the heinous act of driving into JV, but that's another story).
Villeneuve's Williams was dramatically superior, but it still came down to the last race of the season and don't forget, Schumacher was one point ahead in that race.
He has done nothing for BAR, nor has he been able to provide them the information and input necessary for them to improve the car. When Schumacher came to Ferrari, the team immediately started improving, beginning an arc that peaked with the brilliant season of 2002.
Villeneuve has an attitude and a big mouth, both of which aren't backed up by talent or results. He has shown nothing at BAR, not even the flashes of brilliance that, like Mark Webber in the Minardi, earned him a drive with a lesser team.
Farewell to bad rubbish, IMHO.
Kevin
Villeneuve's Williams was dramatically superior, but it still came down to the last race of the season and don't forget, Schumacher was one point ahead in that race.
He has done nothing for BAR, nor has he been able to provide them the information and input necessary for them to improve the car. When Schumacher came to Ferrari, the team immediately started improving, beginning an arc that peaked with the brilliant season of 2002.
Villeneuve has an attitude and a big mouth, both of which aren't backed up by talent or results. He has shown nothing at BAR, not even the flashes of brilliance that, like Mark Webber in the Minardi, earned him a drive with a lesser team.
Farewell to bad rubbish, IMHO.
Kevin
| jmott | 10-07-2003 12:56 PM |
Damon Hill nearly pulled off some wins with a lesser car after leaving williams
I recall one where the engine blew on the final lap ruining his win :(
I recall one where the engine blew on the final lap ruining his win :(
| johnfelstead | 10-07-2003 08:02 PM |
Damon Hill was and is a class act. How many guys in their 2nd year of F1 could handle the death of Senna and take what was a dreadful car (even senna couldnt drive it) and a heartbroken team and develop that into a dominat car for 1995/96.
Damon never gets the recognition he rightly deserves, he should have been champion in 94 but for a deliberate illegal ram by schumacker in the final race that put him out. He was the only guy capable of taking on shuey in 94/95, who is undoubtedly the greatest race driver of his generation.
Damon won the first race for Jordan in the wet, he drove an outstanding race in japan in the rain to take the chapionship to Australia, no one else was anywhere near him on pace that day.
He also kicked everyones arse in Hungary, in an Arrows! only to have his throttle fail with one lap to go, he still finished 2nd.
Damon has something rare in sportmen these days, he is a sportman and a gentleman yet still was able to develop his tallents enough to take on and beat the world. He isnt the natural tallent shumaker is, but you wont find a harder worker or someone with bigger guts to fight it out. Thats to be respected.
Damon never gets the recognition he rightly deserves, he should have been champion in 94 but for a deliberate illegal ram by schumacker in the final race that put him out. He was the only guy capable of taking on shuey in 94/95, who is undoubtedly the greatest race driver of his generation.
Damon won the first race for Jordan in the wet, he drove an outstanding race in japan in the rain to take the chapionship to Australia, no one else was anywhere near him on pace that day.
He also kicked everyones arse in Hungary, in an Arrows! only to have his throttle fail with one lap to go, he still finished 2nd.
Damon has something rare in sportmen these days, he is a sportman and a gentleman yet still was able to develop his tallents enough to take on and beat the world. He isnt the natural tallent shumaker is, but you wont find a harder worker or someone with bigger guts to fight it out. Thats to be respected.
| Patrick L | 10-07-2003 11:36 PM |
I was watching SpeedTV earlier and it looks offical that Sato will be driving for BAR next year.
| gtguy | 10-08-2003 11:09 AM |
I don't think that Damon Hill is the prat that Villeneuve is, but I still think he's overrated. Yes, he's a class act, yes, he did the most with what talent he had, but if he'd been a better driver he'd have had more championships.
For example, a little circumspection in the Australian GP, when Schumacher went off track, would have allowed him to make the pass (don't forget that he was reeling Schumacher in up to that point) when everything got straightened out. There wasn't any reason to try to rush through at that point. Anybody should have known that Schumacher, thug that he is, was going to slam the car right back onto the racing line.
Hill can thank the five-race suspension for getting him close enough to Schumacher to even have a shot at the title. Anybody can do well with an excellent car, which the Williams was in those years. It was also a better car than the Benetton, which had the Schumacher advantage.
Without question, Hill has had some fine accomplishments, but we shouldn't make him more than he is.
Having said that, no, he definitely isn't Villeneuve. :lol:
Kevin
For example, a little circumspection in the Australian GP, when Schumacher went off track, would have allowed him to make the pass (don't forget that he was reeling Schumacher in up to that point) when everything got straightened out. There wasn't any reason to try to rush through at that point. Anybody should have known that Schumacher, thug that he is, was going to slam the car right back onto the racing line.
Hill can thank the five-race suspension for getting him close enough to Schumacher to even have a shot at the title. Anybody can do well with an excellent car, which the Williams was in those years. It was also a better car than the Benetton, which had the Schumacher advantage.
Without question, Hill has had some fine accomplishments, but we shouldn't make him more than he is.
Having said that, no, he definitely isn't Villeneuve. :lol:
Kevin
| Dr. WOT | 10-08-2003 01:31 PM |
Specifically in '94 MS got DQ's from the British GP and subsequently banned from 2 additional GPs. Separately his win at Spa '94 was taken away on an absurd technical violation (plank wear obviously caused by a spin over the curbing). Basically the FIA had to work pretty hard to put Hill in contention for the '94 championship so I will never consider him "rightful" regardless of what happened in Adelaide.
| grandpa rex | 10-08-2003 01:56 PM |
[QUOTE]How many guys in their 2nd year of F1 could handle the death of Senna and take what was a dreadful car (even senna couldnt drive it) and a heartbroken team and develop that into a dominat car for 1995/96.[/QUOTE]
John, I wasn't aware that the 94 Williams was much different from the 92 and 93 versions that Mansell and Prost each drove to convincing world championships. I know that Senna had no points entering Imola in 94. I know that he spun out in the rain in one fo the South American races, and seem to remember that he DNF'd the other two races, but I can't remember the specifics.
I do think that Damon showed great courage taking over a team that had lost Senna and performed better than I could have imagined.
Of course, even then I was a Ferrari fan and still wear my Berger/Alesi team shirt with pride. So, I never did give Damon much credit for being good or quick. I attributed his success to a great car.
Then he flogged that Arrows to an almost-win at hungary and gave Eddie jordan his first win. That's when I became a fan of his. That Arrows was a pig and he outclassed everyne that day including Hakkinen, Villeneuve, MS, DC and the rest. A shame he didn't win that day.
As for Jackie Newtown...I have mixed emotions. I think he was a good and perhaps great driver for Williams. He was fearless and even after moving to BAR flogged a crappy car with gusto. Then in about 2001, I think he just gave up and turned into an F1 whore. He was paid an obscene amount of money ($14million USD is my recollection), and drove on autopilot.
Maybe he and Eddie Irvine can hook up.
John, I wasn't aware that the 94 Williams was much different from the 92 and 93 versions that Mansell and Prost each drove to convincing world championships. I know that Senna had no points entering Imola in 94. I know that he spun out in the rain in one fo the South American races, and seem to remember that he DNF'd the other two races, but I can't remember the specifics.
I do think that Damon showed great courage taking over a team that had lost Senna and performed better than I could have imagined.
Of course, even then I was a Ferrari fan and still wear my Berger/Alesi team shirt with pride. So, I never did give Damon much credit for being good or quick. I attributed his success to a great car.
Then he flogged that Arrows to an almost-win at hungary and gave Eddie jordan his first win. That's when I became a fan of his. That Arrows was a pig and he outclassed everyne that day including Hakkinen, Villeneuve, MS, DC and the rest. A shame he didn't win that day.
As for Jackie Newtown...I have mixed emotions. I think he was a good and perhaps great driver for Williams. He was fearless and even after moving to BAR flogged a crappy car with gusto. Then in about 2001, I think he just gave up and turned into an F1 whore. He was paid an obscene amount of money ($14million USD is my recollection), and drove on autopilot.
Maybe he and Eddie Irvine can hook up.
| gtguy | 10-08-2003 02:48 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Dr. WOT [/i]
[B]Specifically in '94 MS got DQ's from the British GP and subsequently banned from 2 additional GPs. Separately his win at Spa '94 was taken away on an absurd technical violation (plank wear obviously caused by a spin over the curbing). Basically the FIA had to work pretty hard to put Hill in contention for the '94 championship so I will never consider him "rightful" regardless of what happened in Adelaide. [/B][/QUOTE]
Thanks, Dr. My memory was hazy on precisely what happened.
Kevin
[B]Specifically in '94 MS got DQ's from the British GP and subsequently banned from 2 additional GPs. Separately his win at Spa '94 was taken away on an absurd technical violation (plank wear obviously caused by a spin over the curbing). Basically the FIA had to work pretty hard to put Hill in contention for the '94 championship so I will never consider him "rightful" regardless of what happened in Adelaide. [/B][/QUOTE]
Thanks, Dr. My memory was hazy on precisely what happened.
Kevin
| johnfelstead | 10-08-2003 07:37 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by gtguy [/i]
[B]
For example, a little circumspection in the Australian GP, when Schumacher went off track, would have allowed him to make the pass (don't forget that he was reeling Schumacher in up to that point) when everything got straightened out. There wasn't any reason to try to rush through at that point. Anybody should have known that Schumacher, thug that he is, was going to slam the car right back onto the racing line.
[/B][/QUOTE]
There is every reason to try and make a pass then. Up until that point in time shuey had no history of deliberately ramming someone. Also Hill didnt see him go off so didnt know the car was damaged, hill tried to make a move to the left but was blocked, so went right and was rammed. Shuey tried this crap again against JV in 97, this time he lost out and as a result, he was removed from the 97 season points standings by the FIA, so he actually finished last that year, not second as most books show.
[B]
For example, a little circumspection in the Australian GP, when Schumacher went off track, would have allowed him to make the pass (don't forget that he was reeling Schumacher in up to that point) when everything got straightened out. There wasn't any reason to try to rush through at that point. Anybody should have known that Schumacher, thug that he is, was going to slam the car right back onto the racing line.
[/B][/QUOTE]
There is every reason to try and make a pass then. Up until that point in time shuey had no history of deliberately ramming someone. Also Hill didnt see him go off so didnt know the car was damaged, hill tried to make a move to the left but was blocked, so went right and was rammed. Shuey tried this crap again against JV in 97, this time he lost out and as a result, he was removed from the 97 season points standings by the FIA, so he actually finished last that year, not second as most books show.
| johnfelstead | 10-08-2003 07:51 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by grandpa rex [/i]
[B] John, I wasn't aware that the 94 Williams was much different from the 92 and 93 versions that Mansell and Prost each drove to convincing world championships. I know that Senna had no points entering Imola in 94. I know that he spun out in the rain in one fo the South American races, and seem to remember that he DNF'd the other two races, but I can't remember the specifics. [/B][/QUOTE]
1993 the Williams was the class of the field because it was the ultimate in terms of active suspension and electronics. In 1994 all that stuff was banned, they had completely new cars with passive suspension, no traction control, it was the first year of refueling too. The cars were fundemantally different. Benetton were the first out testing their new car, they had a much better car than anyone else in the first 6 months.
You also had the extra dificulties of Damon having no continuity of team mate, so therefor feedback. He started the year with Senna, then did the race in Monaco on his own, then mansell sat in for a race, then he had coulthard, and then he had mansell again for the last 3 races. If that doesnt affect the team and the cars development what will?
Senna didnt spin in the wet, he lost it in brazil uphill in the dry, thats how bad that chassis was. Patrick head said it was very poor at the start of the year.
As to shuey getting banned and losing points from Spa. If you buy the Benetton reason for being excluded you have had the wool pulled over your eyes, they were running the car too low at Spa, that gave them a big grip advantage, unfortunately for them, it also left the car illegal post race. His exclusion from 2 races was down to him first breaking the green flag lap rules by overtaking the polesitter, that got him a 5 second stop/go penalty which he chose to ignore, ignoring the penalty resulted in him being black flagged. This he again ignored. You cant do that and expect to not be penalised by the FIA. Being a champion takes more than driving ability. Shuey learnt that in 94. Damon took advantage of that as anyone would try too, the thing is he maximised what was available, he earned the points in a fare fight in the races and should be respected for that.
P.S i almost forgot. Benetton were caught cheeting in 94 on the fuel rig setup too. Following the fire when verstapens rig leaked fuel and they had a major fire, the fuel rigs were checked and they found benetton had removed the fuel filter system (which was illegal), this speeded up fuel flow. So up until that point Benetton were getting an unfair advantage in the pitstops.
[B] John, I wasn't aware that the 94 Williams was much different from the 92 and 93 versions that Mansell and Prost each drove to convincing world championships. I know that Senna had no points entering Imola in 94. I know that he spun out in the rain in one fo the South American races, and seem to remember that he DNF'd the other two races, but I can't remember the specifics. [/B][/QUOTE]
1993 the Williams was the class of the field because it was the ultimate in terms of active suspension and electronics. In 1994 all that stuff was banned, they had completely new cars with passive suspension, no traction control, it was the first year of refueling too. The cars were fundemantally different. Benetton were the first out testing their new car, they had a much better car than anyone else in the first 6 months.
You also had the extra dificulties of Damon having no continuity of team mate, so therefor feedback. He started the year with Senna, then did the race in Monaco on his own, then mansell sat in for a race, then he had coulthard, and then he had mansell again for the last 3 races. If that doesnt affect the team and the cars development what will?
Senna didnt spin in the wet, he lost it in brazil uphill in the dry, thats how bad that chassis was. Patrick head said it was very poor at the start of the year.
As to shuey getting banned and losing points from Spa. If you buy the Benetton reason for being excluded you have had the wool pulled over your eyes, they were running the car too low at Spa, that gave them a big grip advantage, unfortunately for them, it also left the car illegal post race. His exclusion from 2 races was down to him first breaking the green flag lap rules by overtaking the polesitter, that got him a 5 second stop/go penalty which he chose to ignore, ignoring the penalty resulted in him being black flagged. This he again ignored. You cant do that and expect to not be penalised by the FIA. Being a champion takes more than driving ability. Shuey learnt that in 94. Damon took advantage of that as anyone would try too, the thing is he maximised what was available, he earned the points in a fare fight in the races and should be respected for that.
P.S i almost forgot. Benetton were caught cheeting in 94 on the fuel rig setup too. Following the fire when verstapens rig leaked fuel and they had a major fire, the fuel rigs were checked and they found benetton had removed the fuel filter system (which was illegal), this speeded up fuel flow. So up until that point Benetton were getting an unfair advantage in the pitstops.
| esteve | 10-09-2003 12:36 AM |
Whenever I think of Damon Hill this one image always comes to mind. I can't remember the race or year, but I do remember it being a very wet race and Senna passed Hill like he was standing still. He totally outbraked him and the speed differential was enormous. It was the master showing what separates great from very good.
| AlanO | 10-09-2003 07:35 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by gtguy [/i]
[B]When Schumacher came to Ferrari, the team immediately started improving, beginning an arc that peaked with the brilliant season of 2002.[/B][/QUOTE]
Surely Ross Brawn and Rory Byrne (among others) played huge roles in Ferrari's rise, too. Schumacher was one piece of the puzzle. A very important piece, but still only one.
IMO most of the credit should go to Jean Todt - he's the guy that managed to bring all the right people together.
[B]When Schumacher came to Ferrari, the team immediately started improving, beginning an arc that peaked with the brilliant season of 2002.[/B][/QUOTE]
Surely Ross Brawn and Rory Byrne (among others) played huge roles in Ferrari's rise, too. Schumacher was one piece of the puzzle. A very important piece, but still only one.
IMO most of the credit should go to Jean Todt - he's the guy that managed to bring all the right people together.
| StuBeck | 10-09-2003 08:03 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by esteve [/i]
[B]Whenever I think of Damon Hill this one image always comes to mind. I can't remember the race or year, but I do remember it being a very wet race and Senna passed Hill like he was standing still. He totally outbraked him and the speed differential was enormous. It was the master showing what separates great from very good. [/B][/QUOTE]
Donnington '93...he showed everyone to be n00b's that day.
[B]Whenever I think of Damon Hill this one image always comes to mind. I can't remember the race or year, but I do remember it being a very wet race and Senna passed Hill like he was standing still. He totally outbraked him and the speed differential was enormous. It was the master showing what separates great from very good. [/B][/QUOTE]
Donnington '93...he showed everyone to be n00b's that day.
| artkevin | 10-09-2003 09:12 AM |
Hey Guys, it looks like JV gave up his seat to Taco today. He said that his heart was not in the drive so he stepped down. [url]www.F1-live.com[/url] has the story. Sounds like a stand up move to know that you have no desire to compete and get your butt out of the seat. I say good luck to JV
| gtguy | 10-09-2003 10:58 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by artkevin [/i]
[B]Hey Guys, it looks like JV gave up his seat to Taco today. He said that his heart was not in the drive so he stepped down. [url]www.F1-live.com[/url] has the story. Sounds like a stand up move to know that you have no desire to compete and get your butt out of the seat. I say good luck to JV [/B][/QUOTE]
Funny about perspective...I was just thinking that Villeneuve, in his decision to bail out on BAR for the final race shows the same ultimate lack of class he's been showing all along. There was a funny bit from Ecclestone about how he tried to get a drive for JV, but "nobody wanted him" in the words of Ecclestone.
Kevin
[B]Hey Guys, it looks like JV gave up his seat to Taco today. He said that his heart was not in the drive so he stepped down. [url]www.F1-live.com[/url] has the story. Sounds like a stand up move to know that you have no desire to compete and get your butt out of the seat. I say good luck to JV [/B][/QUOTE]
Funny about perspective...I was just thinking that Villeneuve, in his decision to bail out on BAR for the final race shows the same ultimate lack of class he's been showing all along. There was a funny bit from Ecclestone about how he tried to get a drive for JV, but "nobody wanted him" in the words of Ecclestone.
Kevin
| esteve | 10-09-2003 09:29 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by StuBeck [/i]
[B]
Donnington '93...he showed everyone to be n00b's that day. [/B][/QUOTE]
That was the race where Senna qualified 5th and by the end of the first lap was leading? That was incredible. I think he passed Schumacher on the outside and blew by Prost for the lead.
Was Senna lapping Hill or something, I don't quite remember?
[B]
Donnington '93...he showed everyone to be n00b's that day. [/B][/QUOTE]
That was the race where Senna qualified 5th and by the end of the first lap was leading? That was incredible. I think he passed Schumacher on the outside and blew by Prost for the lead.
Was Senna lapping Hill or something, I don't quite remember?
| OnTheGas | 10-10-2003 12:22 PM |
On Jacques and Damon
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[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by gtguy [/i]
[B]Funny about perspective...[/B][/QUOTE]Yes... funny, I guess... But I think it is wrong to denigrate the talents of Hill or Villeneuve, both of whom earned a world drivers championship.
It is more entertaining to contrast the talent and style of these two drivers...
In Hill's case, he earned a reputation for being a very good qualifier, and then being fast on point... Once he gained the lead, he had a strong ability to concentrate, churn fast laps, and pull away. By his speed alone, he fits well within the pantheon of F1 drivers champions.
In Villeneuve's case, he earned a reputation as a fearless racer, an on-track passer during an era when Schumacher had perfected pit passes...
Both Hill and JV gave Schumacher, and each other, some fabulous fights for which those of us who saw them, were very grateful. Because good fights on Sunday made for good arguments on Monday as to the merits of one's favorite drivers.
JV is only 32. Ending his F1 career now is a waste of talent... and that bothers me.
But we can only blame JV. His primary problem is the large, and foolish mistake of committing the prime of his career to BAR. We could blame Pollack, but in end, it was JV has veto power, but he agreed to go to BAR, and unfortunately, to stay at BAR.
To be successful, a driver has to know that he can't win championships driving a mid-field car.
In comparison, look at Michael (Jordan -> Benetton -> Ferrari), and Montoya (Williams -> McLaren). Their career maneuvers reflect the same, cunning, competitive desire that they exhibit on the track.
If Jacques had that same burning competitive desire when he made career choices during the last five or so years, F1 would have been a more exciting spectacle.
To see a gift of talent wasted like that pains me... But that's my problem. It is Jacques' life, and Jacques' talent, it doesn't belong to me.
I'll take away many good memories of watching him race in F. Atlantics, in CART, and in F1. He was a fearless fighter on the track, exciting to watch, and a talent to be admired.
[B]Funny about perspective...[/B][/QUOTE]Yes... funny, I guess... But I think it is wrong to denigrate the talents of Hill or Villeneuve, both of whom earned a world drivers championship.
It is more entertaining to contrast the talent and style of these two drivers...
In Hill's case, he earned a reputation for being a very good qualifier, and then being fast on point... Once he gained the lead, he had a strong ability to concentrate, churn fast laps, and pull away. By his speed alone, he fits well within the pantheon of F1 drivers champions.
In Villeneuve's case, he earned a reputation as a fearless racer, an on-track passer during an era when Schumacher had perfected pit passes...
Both Hill and JV gave Schumacher, and each other, some fabulous fights for which those of us who saw them, were very grateful. Because good fights on Sunday made for good arguments on Monday as to the merits of one's favorite drivers.
JV is only 32. Ending his F1 career now is a waste of talent... and that bothers me.
But we can only blame JV. His primary problem is the large, and foolish mistake of committing the prime of his career to BAR. We could blame Pollack, but in end, it was JV has veto power, but he agreed to go to BAR, and unfortunately, to stay at BAR.
To be successful, a driver has to know that he can't win championships driving a mid-field car.
In comparison, look at Michael (Jordan -> Benetton -> Ferrari), and Montoya (Williams -> McLaren). Their career maneuvers reflect the same, cunning, competitive desire that they exhibit on the track.
If Jacques had that same burning competitive desire when he made career choices during the last five or so years, F1 would have been a more exciting spectacle.
To see a gift of talent wasted like that pains me... But that's my problem. It is Jacques' life, and Jacques' talent, it doesn't belong to me.
I'll take away many good memories of watching him race in F. Atlantics, in CART, and in F1. He was a fearless fighter on the track, exciting to watch, and a talent to be admired.
| Gambit | 10-10-2003 01:24 PM |
Bah! F1 today is a Schumacher Ringling Circus. Everything seems to revolve around him. He can do no wrong. Oh Hail Schumacher!
:rolleyes:
was watching some old reruns of F1s with Prost and Senna duels. How I used to enjoy F1.
:rolleyes:
was watching some old reruns of F1s with Prost and Senna duels. How I used to enjoy F1.
| gtguy | 10-10-2003 03:43 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Gambit [/i]
[B]Bah! F1 today is a Schumacher Ringling Circus. Everything seems to revolve around him. He can do no wrong. Oh Hail Schumacher!
:rolleyes:
was watching some old reruns of F1s with Prost and Senna duels. How I used to enjoy F1. [/B][/QUOTE]
What did M. Schumacher ever do to anyone (okay, Damon Hill and attempted J. Villeneuve) except be excellent? I admit to never having understood the hatred of him.
OTG, I hear you on Hill and Villeneuve, but in my defense, saying they're overrated is different from saying that they suck. I don't think that there is a driver within M. Schumacher's generation (unfortunately, Senna's untimely death robbed us of some great battles) who can work the mojo sufficiently, given equal cars, to really make a great show. Hakkinen's (a first-class talent and excellent, excellent driver) McLaren was a world-beater, as were the Williamses of Hill and Villeneuve. Schumacher is a freak, who has the rare ability to make a slower car fast, for a time. At some point, there's no arguing with superiority, however, even when Schumacher is concerned.
But different opinions are what make debates like these fun.
Kevin
[B]Bah! F1 today is a Schumacher Ringling Circus. Everything seems to revolve around him. He can do no wrong. Oh Hail Schumacher!
:rolleyes:
was watching some old reruns of F1s with Prost and Senna duels. How I used to enjoy F1. [/B][/QUOTE]
What did M. Schumacher ever do to anyone (okay, Damon Hill and attempted J. Villeneuve) except be excellent? I admit to never having understood the hatred of him.
OTG, I hear you on Hill and Villeneuve, but in my defense, saying they're overrated is different from saying that they suck. I don't think that there is a driver within M. Schumacher's generation (unfortunately, Senna's untimely death robbed us of some great battles) who can work the mojo sufficiently, given equal cars, to really make a great show. Hakkinen's (a first-class talent and excellent, excellent driver) McLaren was a world-beater, as were the Williamses of Hill and Villeneuve. Schumacher is a freak, who has the rare ability to make a slower car fast, for a time. At some point, there's no arguing with superiority, however, even when Schumacher is concerned.
But different opinions are what make debates like these fun.
Kevin
| Kitsune | 10-10-2003 06:09 PM |
Schumacher is a freak that can make a slow car fast? Thats not being a freak of nature that is simply having driving talent. There has been many drivers in all forms of motorsports that have shown an ability too maximaze a car's performance. Schumacher is not god. The last few years he has had the class of the field Ferrari and somehow that does not make HIM overrated? It is the same exact argument I have been hearing against JV and Hill that their success stemed more from the superiority of Mclaren or Williams. Without a doubt Schumacher may be one of the greatest drivers in history, but saying that he is the best ever is bunk. You can not judge the greatest only who is great.
It is really old that people can not acknowledge the Ferrari's dominace nor the fact the Schumacher's team revoles around him solely. Unlike almost every other team on the grid which has two drivers equally dedicated to their own succes. Bariccello is dedicated to Michael's success because he's the uber-team player even though the team gives him a slower car that blows up on a noteable greater occasion then Shumacher's.
It is really old that people can not acknowledge the Ferrari's dominace nor the fact the Schumacher's team revoles around him solely. Unlike almost every other team on the grid which has two drivers equally dedicated to their own succes. Bariccello is dedicated to Michael's success because he's the uber-team player even though the team gives him a slower car that blows up on a noteable greater occasion then Shumacher's.
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