| Ultralight | 07-07-2003 04:33 PM |
No Hope?
�
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I have done almost everything within reason to our WRX that is legal for SCCA D-stock and it is slower than an Integra Type R. I know this because I was fortunate enough to drive last year's DS champ Integra on the same course shortly after I drove the WRX in competition. I have never driven an Integra before but in two runs I beat our WRX's time by 1.7 seconds on a 47 second course. That is a huge margin and I am depressed. To make it worse, I designed and laid out the course. One problem was that I thought I would be running 215/40 Hoosiers but we corded four a week ago that had lasted only four days so we had to run 225/50 Kumhos so the gearing was screwed up badly on three turns. Left foot braking couldn't keep the boost up and a down shift was marginal. I did down shift the second day and the results were better but not great. The R still beat me a second.
I'm running double adjustable Koni's that are helping with rotation. I've got 12.5 pound wheels. The only thing I did not spend big on was the exhaust. I had a custom 2.5 inch axle back made with a Dynomax racing muffler. Any suggestions to get more go. The Integra actually out accelerated the WRX at many points on the course. I had a Hotchkis front bar but it broke and I'm using a Perrin but cannot use the stiffest setting as it flops over center and hangs down with the links pointing down.
I'm running double adjustable Koni's that are helping with rotation. I've got 12.5 pound wheels. The only thing I did not spend big on was the exhaust. I had a custom 2.5 inch axle back made with a Dynomax racing muffler. Any suggestions to get more go. The Integra actually out accelerated the WRX at many points on the course. I had a Hotchkis front bar but it broke and I'm using a Perrin but cannot use the stiffest setting as it flops over center and hangs down with the links pointing down.
| KC | 07-07-2003 05:04 PM |
WRX - 3000lbs @ 227hp
Type-R - 2400lbs @ 200hp
In stock, it's about the suspension. Until you can get a stock suspension to handle like a Type-Rs, the WRX will lose in the HP/weight/suspension war. The IT-R, the IS300 or the BMW could be the cars to have... better suspensions that the 'Rally inspired' WRX stock. And really the only other option are the Konis. Still not even close. ;)
You think you have it tough with the It-R? The 2.5RS used to be in the same class. :D
--kC
Type-R - 2400lbs @ 200hp
In stock, it's about the suspension. Until you can get a stock suspension to handle like a Type-Rs, the WRX will lose in the HP/weight/suspension war. The IT-R, the IS300 or the BMW could be the cars to have... better suspensions that the 'Rally inspired' WRX stock. And really the only other option are the Konis. Still not even close. ;)
You think you have it tough with the It-R? The 2.5RS used to be in the same class. :D
--kC
| dwx | 07-07-2003 05:12 PM |
It's actually about 2600 lbs and has 195hp. It's still a better power/weight ratio than the WRX. It's built for tarmac racing and does it very well, whereas the WRX is not. It has a very primitive suspension compared to a Type-R. I think we got hosed with the gearing in the WRX, it should have been shorter, especially with a turbo, but oh well. I think on the right course a WRX could beat a Type-R but probably not the majority of them.
| jmott | 07-07-2003 05:29 PM |
I cant think of an autox course where the WRX would win over the type R, not on race tires.
might want to move to a street tire class where the reduced traction will give your AWD some advantage.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by dwx [/i]
[B]It's actually about 2600 lbs and has 195hp. It's still a better power/weight ratio than the WRX. It's built for tarmac racing and does it very well, whereas the WRX is not. It has a very primitive suspension compared to a Type-R. I think we got hosed with the gearing in the WRX, it should have been shorter, especially with a turbo, but oh well. I think on the right course a WRX could beat a Type-R but probably not the majority of them. [/B][/QUOTE]
might want to move to a street tire class where the reduced traction will give your AWD some advantage.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by dwx [/i]
[B]It's actually about 2600 lbs and has 195hp. It's still a better power/weight ratio than the WRX. It's built for tarmac racing and does it very well, whereas the WRX is not. It has a very primitive suspension compared to a Type-R. I think we got hosed with the gearing in the WRX, it should have been shorter, especially with a turbo, but oh well. I think on the right course a WRX could beat a Type-R but probably not the majority of them. [/B][/QUOTE]
| MNbiker | 07-07-2003 07:15 PM |
Yep, the WRX simply isn't "one of the cars to have" in D-Stock. :(
On the other hand, it's a beast in STX!:D
Come play with us!
-Steve
On the other hand, it's a beast in STX!:D
Come play with us!
-Steve
| ConeMasher | 07-07-2003 07:19 PM |
I too run a WRX in D-Stock (here in Chicago). In fact I'm in a running battle with a couple ITRs for the championship out here.
How to catch em, assuming equal drivers? Pray for rain :)
Seriously though:
What's left to do?
- Well, I don't know what mojo you have on your duals, but perhaps super stiff rear rebound revalve is in order, along with degassing (for a 1/4 inch legal drop or so).
- Are you running wheel spacers or the minimal offset on your rims? The extra 1/2 inch of track width reduces weight transfer.
- Why the muffler at all? Run no catback, with just a gasket in it's stead (it's legal). Lose another 20 lbs or so that way (37.5 vs. stock).
- What brake pads are you running?
- Get that Perrin bar sorted out. I have mine on full stiff, and once I put the shaft collars on (to prevent side-to-side shifting), it's working out ok.
-- Gary
How to catch em, assuming equal drivers? Pray for rain :)
Seriously though:
What's left to do?
- Well, I don't know what mojo you have on your duals, but perhaps super stiff rear rebound revalve is in order, along with degassing (for a 1/4 inch legal drop or so).
- Are you running wheel spacers or the minimal offset on your rims? The extra 1/2 inch of track width reduces weight transfer.
- Why the muffler at all? Run no catback, with just a gasket in it's stead (it's legal). Lose another 20 lbs or so that way (37.5 vs. stock).
- What brake pads are you running?
- Get that Perrin bar sorted out. I have mine on full stiff, and once I put the shaft collars on (to prevent side-to-side shifting), it's working out ok.
-- Gary
| trhoppe | 07-07-2003 07:29 PM |
Honestly, I don't think youre driving your WRX correctly.
IMHO a well prepped WRX can hang with the Type R with no problems. At ProSolos you should dominate.
The 215/40 Hoosiers are a must. I believe that there could be almost a full second difference in the gearing on a course with tight turns. I had a good drive at the ProSolo finale. I beat Kevin in that same type R by almost 8 tenths. I don't think I gained 8 tenths from the launch.
-Tom
IMHO a well prepped WRX can hang with the Type R with no problems. At ProSolos you should dominate.
The 215/40 Hoosiers are a must. I believe that there could be almost a full second difference in the gearing on a course with tight turns. I had a good drive at the ProSolo finale. I beat Kevin in that same type R by almost 8 tenths. I don't think I gained 8 tenths from the launch.
-Tom
| MNbiker | 07-07-2003 07:41 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B]At ProSolos you should dominate. [/B][/QUOTE]
Too bad there aren't local/regional ProSolo events to play at. Now that would be fun!:devil: (and hard on trannies, clutches, etc.)
-Steve
p.s. Tom, you think you could beat Youngers in ProSolo this year with a D-Stock WRX? That Bimmer seems to be destroying the field. Or is Kevin simply that good?
[B]At ProSolos you should dominate. [/B][/QUOTE]
Too bad there aren't local/regional ProSolo events to play at. Now that would be fun!:devil: (and hard on trannies, clutches, etc.)
-Steve
p.s. Tom, you think you could beat Youngers in ProSolo this year with a D-Stock WRX? That Bimmer seems to be destroying the field. Or is Kevin simply that good?
| johnfelstead | 07-07-2003 07:57 PM |
are you allowed to change the front diff?
| MNbiker | 07-07-2003 08:10 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by johnfelstead [/i]
[B]are you allowed to change the front diff? [/B][/QUOTE]
John,
Unfortunately not. You have to go 2 classes down the modification path to ESP for non-stock diff's to be legal.
It sure would be nice to have a 4wd instead of a 3wd though!;)
-Steve
[B]are you allowed to change the front diff? [/B][/QUOTE]
John,
Unfortunately not. You have to go 2 classes down the modification path to ESP for non-stock diff's to be legal.
It sure would be nice to have a 4wd instead of a 3wd though!;)
-Steve
| trhoppe | 07-07-2003 08:42 PM |
[QUOTE]p.s. Tom, you think you could beat Youngers in ProSolo this year with a D-Stock WRX? That Bimmer seems to be destroying the field. Or is Kevin simply that good?[/QUOTE]
I'm not going to say that either I would always beat him, or he would always beat me. It would depend on the day and what kind of drives we both had. Doing a quick check through results he is 2.1 to 2.5 secs behind telehowski in his CS Miata. I was anywhere from 1.2 to 2.5 secs behind telehowski at the events I went to.
I believe that the WRX, Type R, and the 330 are all VERY close to each other and it becomes course and driver dependent who would win. At the Tours, the R and 330 are favored, at the Pros, the WRX is favored.
I'm very much thinking about going back to DS for next season. One of the only things preventing me from doing so is the tire expense.
-Tom
I'm not going to say that either I would always beat him, or he would always beat me. It would depend on the day and what kind of drives we both had. Doing a quick check through results he is 2.1 to 2.5 secs behind telehowski in his CS Miata. I was anywhere from 1.2 to 2.5 secs behind telehowski at the events I went to.
I believe that the WRX, Type R, and the 330 are all VERY close to each other and it becomes course and driver dependent who would win. At the Tours, the R and 330 are favored, at the Pros, the WRX is favored.
I'm very much thinking about going back to DS for next season. One of the only things preventing me from doing so is the tire expense.
-Tom
| johnfelstead | 07-07-2003 08:58 PM |
Subaru did use a front LSD in some versions of the WRX (like the spec C), are you sure the rules dont allow you to put an LSD in that was used by the family car? I dont know how the rules work in AutoX and i am a devious b*****d where rules are concerned. :D:lol:
| KC | 07-07-2003 09:09 PM |
:lol: I wish!
Alas, the rules that many use are by the SCCA and it states that the parts (In certain classes) must be from versions that were available in the US cars, and then there's an index in the rules on certain cars that are allowed to interchange (Update/Backdate) parts.
The WRX Stands alone which means no other models are available to switch from/to. :)
--KC
Alas, the rules that many use are by the SCCA and it states that the parts (In certain classes) must be from versions that were available in the US cars, and then there's an index in the rules on certain cars that are allowed to interchange (Update/Backdate) parts.
The WRX Stands alone which means no other models are available to switch from/to. :)
--KC
| MNbiker | 07-07-2003 09:14 PM |
Unfortunately, cars have to be generally available in the U.S. to be eligible. Plus, STi models are in a different class. I like your thought process though! Devious is good - especially when it's within the rules and you're the first one to find the loophole!:devil:
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by johnfelstead [/i]
[B]Subaru did use a front LSD in some versions of the WRX (like the spec C), are you sure the rules dont allow you to put an LSD in that was used by the family car? I dont know how the rules work in AutoX and i am a devious b*****d where rules are concerned. :D:lol: [/B][/QUOTE]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by johnfelstead [/i]
[B]Subaru did use a front LSD in some versions of the WRX (like the spec C), are you sure the rules dont allow you to put an LSD in that was used by the family car? I dont know how the rules work in AutoX and i am a devious b*****d where rules are concerned. :D:lol: [/B][/QUOTE]
| Ultralight | 07-07-2003 09:16 PM |
Gary, I'm running Kodiaks with 49mm offset. I turn both bump and rebound to full hard on the rears and with 60 lbs of air in the rear tires can get the WRX to slight oversteer in a steady state turn. I think I will try a straight pipe out the left side. I'm running stock pads and I could be wrong but I think I have more brake than needed. I made Polyurathane collars for the Perrin and maybe I'll try the stiff setting again. Maybe if it does not slip sideways it will not swap positions up and down. Someone told me our WRX looks identical to yours. Are you going to nationals?
Tom, the course did present some gearing problems for the Kumhos that the Hoosiers would have solved. There were three turns before straights that were excrutiating. I've put Redline in the transmission and can downshift to 1st but the three turns were preceded by manuevers that made downshifts a poor compromise (high speed jinking then a very short braking space). The next day running the other direction we downshifted and did better but the R still beat us a second. The Kumhos shaved weigh 8 pounds apiece more than the Hoosiers which is a huge mass to accelerate. However the Hoosiers cost us $200 per day. As for driving style I am an old dog and they are difficult to teach new tricks. However I'm beating all the other WRX's and there are a bunch around here, even in the STX and SM classes but I attribute that to old age and treachery. Glen Hernandenz and Ralph Elder drove our WRX at the same event. Glen rode in it with me and my wife and then drove it for four or five laps and got .2 second better time than my wife's best time which was better than mine that day. Ralph got worse.
Tom, the course did present some gearing problems for the Kumhos that the Hoosiers would have solved. There were three turns before straights that were excrutiating. I've put Redline in the transmission and can downshift to 1st but the three turns were preceded by manuevers that made downshifts a poor compromise (high speed jinking then a very short braking space). The next day running the other direction we downshifted and did better but the R still beat us a second. The Kumhos shaved weigh 8 pounds apiece more than the Hoosiers which is a huge mass to accelerate. However the Hoosiers cost us $200 per day. As for driving style I am an old dog and they are difficult to teach new tricks. However I'm beating all the other WRX's and there are a bunch around here, even in the STX and SM classes but I attribute that to old age and treachery. Glen Hernandenz and Ralph Elder drove our WRX at the same event. Glen rode in it with me and my wife and then drove it for four or five laps and got .2 second better time than my wife's best time which was better than mine that day. Ralph got worse.
| KC | 07-07-2003 09:27 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Ultralight [/i]
[B]I've put Redline in the transmission and can downshift to 1st but the three turns were preceded by manuevers that made downshifts a poor compromise (high speed jinking then a very short braking space). The next day running the other direction we downshifted and did better but the R still beat us a second. [/B][/QUOTE]Hint: Don't downshift. Keep it in second, modify your entry a little, keep TIGHT in and 1/4 to 1/2 way though the turn, plant your foot. By the time you're pointing the right direction, boost will be there for you.
Don't look at it as being off boost, look at it as running a N/A 140hp 2.0L engine through a turn. :)
[B]I've put Redline in the transmission and can downshift to 1st but the three turns were preceded by manuevers that made downshifts a poor compromise (high speed jinking then a very short braking space). The next day running the other direction we downshifted and did better but the R still beat us a second. [/B][/QUOTE]Hint: Don't downshift. Keep it in second, modify your entry a little, keep TIGHT in and 1/4 to 1/2 way though the turn, plant your foot. By the time you're pointing the right direction, boost will be there for you.
Don't look at it as being off boost, look at it as running a N/A 140hp 2.0L engine through a turn. :)
| Ultralight | 07-07-2003 10:06 PM |
KC, that's generally good advice but three of these turns put us at about 2800-3100 RPM in second. I don't get any significant boost until 3500. We were left foot braking and getting back on the throttle as we were finishing braking. This course was unusual for this season so far as having so many turns that put us in that position. A course we ran in Winnemucca had similar turns but we were running Hoosiers and the gearing made a big difference.
| johnfelstead | 07-07-2003 10:21 PM |
its a good job i dont live over there! I would be protested every week on something new :lol: :devil: :D
All i can add is to say practice away from competition and try diferent setups, dont be afraid to take some driving coaching, (but only from a good one!), you should always be learning.
All i can add is to say practice away from competition and try diferent setups, dont be afraid to take some driving coaching, (but only from a good one!), you should always be learning.
| KC | 07-07-2003 10:25 PM |
Try it. I'm telling you. It matters not how low of boost you are. You will gain time when done right. Again, IGNORE boost levels. Your goal is to get around that cone.
Guarenteed my way will be faster. What's the RPM of 2nd gear when you shift out of 1st? :D
Doing it my way, you'll be at a higher RPM (and more boost) in 2nd at the same point than if you went from top of 1st to 2nd (and gee.. you're off boost AGAIN because of the up shift). ;)
Getting around a pivot or tight turn is NOT something HP is needed or wanted for. It's the shortest distance around that turn that will gain you time.
Not getting 1st will ensure a smooth line through the turn where you're just concentrating on placement of the car and looking ahead. :)
I haven't met a course that I had to shift to 1st.
It may FEEL faster. But again, trust me. It's not. ;)
Guarenteed my way will be faster. What's the RPM of 2nd gear when you shift out of 1st? :D
Doing it my way, you'll be at a higher RPM (and more boost) in 2nd at the same point than if you went from top of 1st to 2nd (and gee.. you're off boost AGAIN because of the up shift). ;)
Getting around a pivot or tight turn is NOT something HP is needed or wanted for. It's the shortest distance around that turn that will gain you time.
Not getting 1st will ensure a smooth line through the turn where you're just concentrating on placement of the car and looking ahead. :)
I haven't met a course that I had to shift to 1st.
It may FEEL faster. But again, trust me. It's not. ;)
| ConeMasher | 07-07-2003 10:59 PM |
John,
With that 49mm offset, you're only a total of 2 mm off the maximum track we can get legally, so I guess you've got nowhere to go there. I'm considering running some spacers on just the front of my car right now, to change the roll characteristics a bit. We'll see how it goes, I have quite a few events left to experiment with it.
Sounds like you're running a very similar pressures to me. On our smooth asphalt we normally run here in Chicago, I run 45 front, 55 rear. On concrete, my rears would be up at 60. Perrin bar on full stiff, Koni's (SA in my case) 2 turns rear (max), 3/4 turn front.
I don't drop the exhaust for locals, but I will for divisionals+.
In terms of braking, you'll see quite a bit of improvement if you go with Carbotech Bobcats or Axxis Ultimates. IMHO, this allows the stock brakes to take advantage of the increased grip the R-tires provide. I recommend some better fluid while you're there (ATE Super Blue, etc).
I still need to get around to changing my tranny fluids... but for now, copious LFB coupled, early throttle, and fear of shattered gears has kept me relatively satisfied in slow 2nd gear turns.
Wish I could afford Hoosiers tho. Great gearing.
I wonder how those poly collars are working for you... I'm using steel shaft collars about 1.5mm inboard of the bushings, to prevent bar contact on the endlinks.
-- Gary
With that 49mm offset, you're only a total of 2 mm off the maximum track we can get legally, so I guess you've got nowhere to go there. I'm considering running some spacers on just the front of my car right now, to change the roll characteristics a bit. We'll see how it goes, I have quite a few events left to experiment with it.
Sounds like you're running a very similar pressures to me. On our smooth asphalt we normally run here in Chicago, I run 45 front, 55 rear. On concrete, my rears would be up at 60. Perrin bar on full stiff, Koni's (SA in my case) 2 turns rear (max), 3/4 turn front.
I don't drop the exhaust for locals, but I will for divisionals+.
In terms of braking, you'll see quite a bit of improvement if you go with Carbotech Bobcats or Axxis Ultimates. IMHO, this allows the stock brakes to take advantage of the increased grip the R-tires provide. I recommend some better fluid while you're there (ATE Super Blue, etc).
I still need to get around to changing my tranny fluids... but for now, copious LFB coupled, early throttle, and fear of shattered gears has kept me relatively satisfied in slow 2nd gear turns.
Wish I could afford Hoosiers tho. Great gearing.
I wonder how those poly collars are working for you... I'm using steel shaft collars about 1.5mm inboard of the bushings, to prevent bar contact on the endlinks.
-- Gary
| solo-x | 07-08-2003 08:23 AM |
kC's giving some good advice there. we recently had an autocross up in the NHIS parking lots. the courses we run in these lots are _very_ tight and slow courses with speeds rarely exceeding 40mph. there was a guy there driving a wrx on street tires and stock suspension who i watched take his first run the whole way in 1st gear. big power slides, bigger drifts, tons of noise and smoke, but a very slow time. i heard him lament to his buddy who was driving a stock neon on street tires who was beating him by about 1 second (on a 35second course mind you) that he just couldn't keep it on boost.
i recommended to him to short shift to 2nd about 50ft past the start. he insisted it was a bad idea but i finally convinced him to try. his first attempt at it found him improving by a little more then 1.2 seconds. again, keep in mind this was a 35 second course and he was trying to do this on street tires. his next run i told him to get on the gas early on all the corners so that the turbo would have time to spool. he did and dropped another half second. his buddy in the neon (who was still driving the entire course in 1st gear) was now the one lamenting over his slow times, but was too stubborn to take my advice.
remember, sometimes slow _is_ faster.
nate
i recommended to him to short shift to 2nd about 50ft past the start. he insisted it was a bad idea but i finally convinced him to try. his first attempt at it found him improving by a little more then 1.2 seconds. again, keep in mind this was a 35 second course and he was trying to do this on street tires. his next run i told him to get on the gas early on all the corners so that the turbo would have time to spool. he did and dropped another half second. his buddy in the neon (who was still driving the entire course in 1st gear) was now the one lamenting over his slow times, but was too stubborn to take my advice.
remember, sometimes slow _is_ faster.
nate
| Storm | 07-08-2003 08:38 AM |
This school is where you need to go...
[url]http://autocross.com/evolution/[/url]
It will show you the way....
Jay Storm
[url]www.sourcemotorsports.com[/url]
[url]http://autocross.com/evolution/[/url]
It will show you the way....
Jay Storm
[url]www.sourcemotorsports.com[/url]
| ellisnc | 07-08-2003 06:04 PM |
KC, what do you think about slipping the clutch on really slow turns (sub 3000)? I've tried it a couple times before with a good result at least once.
| Kha0S | 07-08-2003 06:25 PM |
Nate, I'm appalled by your misquotation of both myself and webkris.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by solo-x [/i]
[B]there was a guy there driving a wrx on street tires and stock suspension who i watched take his first run the whole way in 1st gear. big power slides, bigger drifts, tons of noise and smoke, but a very slow time.
[/b][/quote]
Perhaps you failed to hear my explanation that this was my FIRST autocross run in my WRX in its new configuration. No more than a week prior, it was back on the road after a transmission failure.
It used to be an auto-tranny WRX with a boost controller, with ABS.
When it hit the (rainy) NHIS lot two weeks ago, it was a manual transmission (BC6 transmission with 3.545 vs. 3.454 WRX 1st gear), catless up-pipe, rear subframe locking bolts, rear subframe bushings, and transmission/pitch mounts, as well as an ABS system that was malfunctioning (due to the lack of a TCU and my failure to re-wire yet).
I've been driving a manual transmission car for only about three months (learned it on an Audi 80 quattro while getting myself to/from work while working on the WRX), and this was my first autocross in any manual vehicle, let alone one that's making quite a bit more horsepower than before.
I'm also a novice autocrosser at best -- I'm much more at home at rallycross and ice racing events.
As such, your use of me as an example is ill-conceived.
[quote][b]
i heard him lament to his buddy who was driving a stock neon on street tires who was beating him by about 1 second (on a 35second course mind you) that he just couldn't keep it on boost.
[/b][/quote]
This buddy, coincidentally, is webkris. Kris has been autocrossing for many years in various vehicles, and is a much, much better driver than I am.
Similarly, I never said anything of the sort to him about not being able to maintain boost. I had more boost than I knew what to do with throughout the entire day. Throttle-on oversteer was in abundance, as was throttle lift oversteer (due to the new rear suspension geometry).
I appreciate your attempts to help me out there, but I was there for different reasons -- not so much to fight for precious seconds on course. Kris, similarly, was in the same boat with a full cage in his car for the first time.
/Andrew
(edit: I went a little overboard here, so I cleaned it up. I apologize to Nate for my overreaction.)
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by solo-x [/i]
[B]there was a guy there driving a wrx on street tires and stock suspension who i watched take his first run the whole way in 1st gear. big power slides, bigger drifts, tons of noise and smoke, but a very slow time.
[/b][/quote]
Perhaps you failed to hear my explanation that this was my FIRST autocross run in my WRX in its new configuration. No more than a week prior, it was back on the road after a transmission failure.
It used to be an auto-tranny WRX with a boost controller, with ABS.
When it hit the (rainy) NHIS lot two weeks ago, it was a manual transmission (BC6 transmission with 3.545 vs. 3.454 WRX 1st gear), catless up-pipe, rear subframe locking bolts, rear subframe bushings, and transmission/pitch mounts, as well as an ABS system that was malfunctioning (due to the lack of a TCU and my failure to re-wire yet).
I've been driving a manual transmission car for only about three months (learned it on an Audi 80 quattro while getting myself to/from work while working on the WRX), and this was my first autocross in any manual vehicle, let alone one that's making quite a bit more horsepower than before.
I'm also a novice autocrosser at best -- I'm much more at home at rallycross and ice racing events.
As such, your use of me as an example is ill-conceived.
[quote][b]
i heard him lament to his buddy who was driving a stock neon on street tires who was beating him by about 1 second (on a 35second course mind you) that he just couldn't keep it on boost.
[/b][/quote]
This buddy, coincidentally, is webkris. Kris has been autocrossing for many years in various vehicles, and is a much, much better driver than I am.
Similarly, I never said anything of the sort to him about not being able to maintain boost. I had more boost than I knew what to do with throughout the entire day. Throttle-on oversteer was in abundance, as was throttle lift oversteer (due to the new rear suspension geometry).
I appreciate your attempts to help me out there, but I was there for different reasons -- not so much to fight for precious seconds on course. Kris, similarly, was in the same boat with a full cage in his car for the first time.
/Andrew
(edit: I went a little overboard here, so I cleaned it up. I apologize to Nate for my overreaction.)
| TyrannoSullyRex | 07-08-2003 06:26 PM |
Just put your right foot on the floor WAY before corner exit and let the N/A 140 hp 2.0L four cylinder pull you around, then hopefully the lag will be over when you are ready to go.
| johnfelstead | 07-08-2003 08:21 PM |
[SIZE=4] [COLOR=red]Just go faster!!!![/COLOR] [/SIZE] :devil: :D
| ellisnc | 07-08-2003 08:43 PM |
okay there's two Nates here... thought you were going after me for a second there...
| webkris | 07-09-2003 02:21 AM |
lamenting...
�
�
Having 4+ years of motorsports / car control experience ([i]autoX, rallyX, Ice, Driving Schools, etc.[/i]) - let me give my humble opinion. :)
Come on - The NHIS autocross was a go-cart course.
1st gear baby. "Speeds rarely exceeding 40." I hit the rev limiter only during wheel spin ([i]it was raining[/i]). What could I do in 2nd? The car makes HP at 4K, and that's 42MPH in the Neon, and like 38 in the Subaru. My tires suck, my suspension sucks, but my times went down all day - 44, 42, 41, 41, 40, 41 ([i]no cones[/i]). Forty seconds on soaking wet pavement in a one wheel drive Neon ain't bad. Oh yeah - I don't have power steering either :p
[quote]I haven't met a course that I had to shift to 1st. [/quote]
KC - would you say - "I haven't met a 2nd gear long course that I had to shift into 1st." ?? "I haven't seen Evil Dead 2 yet..." ;)
Okay - yes - 2nd gear is a good idea for a novice to smooth out lines, and work on car control / wheelspin. Instead of worrying about shifting. As Kha0s mentioned - we were there for fun. We decided to take our "Where is my cars limits?" question off the streets to a safe location.
Now since we're giving out free unsolicited advice. :D
The boys in the white Honda need to smooth out the throttle control, and try some more wet events. The uncontrolled slidways action into the stop box was not a good strong showing from an "instructor" car.
The slalom is: Lift - Turn - Accelerate. Lift - Turn - Accelerate.
I use left foot braking to chill some of the wheelspin, and to rotate the car in the really hard hairpins. You could say "trailbraking" too.
I have some advice for people looking for, and giving advice. Take everything said by an instructor ([i]including me[/i]) with some hesitation. I learn by show - so ask for a ride ([i]in the instructors car[/i]). Try things out - but form your own opinions. Watch the people who are fast - pay attention to the people who look slow but get a fast time. Don't listen to the BS chatter in the pits - I talk out'my ass sometimes too. Find someone who is fast AND smooth - and see if they will give you some advice. Realize sometimes people don't want your honest opinion. It's 80% driver, and 20% car - so tune the nut behind the wheel. Oh, and HAVE FUN OUT THERE!!
Autocross is a freaking downer when your caught up in the ultimate competitiveness of it. :rolleyes:
- Kris
SIDELINE --------------------------------------------------
[url=http://www.wmc-bmwcca.org/results.asp?id=15&action=show&class=*&show=r&show=f]Results - from the NHIS event we are referring to.[/url]
Why don't they list all the runs?
Why don't non members get listed?
That's too bad. :(
[i][b]'WORKERS! We need workers! If you aren't running - your working, and if you don't work your times wont count!'[/b][/i]
Come on - The NHIS autocross was a go-cart course.
1st gear baby. "Speeds rarely exceeding 40." I hit the rev limiter only during wheel spin ([i]it was raining[/i]). What could I do in 2nd? The car makes HP at 4K, and that's 42MPH in the Neon, and like 38 in the Subaru. My tires suck, my suspension sucks, but my times went down all day - 44, 42, 41, 41, 40, 41 ([i]no cones[/i]). Forty seconds on soaking wet pavement in a one wheel drive Neon ain't bad. Oh yeah - I don't have power steering either :p
[quote]I haven't met a course that I had to shift to 1st. [/quote]
KC - would you say - "I haven't met a 2nd gear long course that I had to shift into 1st." ?? "I haven't seen Evil Dead 2 yet..." ;)
Okay - yes - 2nd gear is a good idea for a novice to smooth out lines, and work on car control / wheelspin. Instead of worrying about shifting. As Kha0s mentioned - we were there for fun. We decided to take our "Where is my cars limits?" question off the streets to a safe location.
Now since we're giving out free unsolicited advice. :D
The boys in the white Honda need to smooth out the throttle control, and try some more wet events. The uncontrolled slidways action into the stop box was not a good strong showing from an "instructor" car.
The slalom is: Lift - Turn - Accelerate. Lift - Turn - Accelerate.
I use left foot braking to chill some of the wheelspin, and to rotate the car in the really hard hairpins. You could say "trailbraking" too.
I have some advice for people looking for, and giving advice. Take everything said by an instructor ([i]including me[/i]) with some hesitation. I learn by show - so ask for a ride ([i]in the instructors car[/i]). Try things out - but form your own opinions. Watch the people who are fast - pay attention to the people who look slow but get a fast time. Don't listen to the BS chatter in the pits - I talk out'my ass sometimes too. Find someone who is fast AND smooth - and see if they will give you some advice. Realize sometimes people don't want your honest opinion. It's 80% driver, and 20% car - so tune the nut behind the wheel. Oh, and HAVE FUN OUT THERE!!
Autocross is a freaking downer when your caught up in the ultimate competitiveness of it. :rolleyes:
- Kris
SIDELINE --------------------------------------------------
[url=http://www.wmc-bmwcca.org/results.asp?id=15&action=show&class=*&show=r&show=f]Results - from the NHIS event we are referring to.[/url]
Why don't they list all the runs?
Why don't non members get listed?
That's too bad. :(
[i][b]'WORKERS! We need workers! If you aren't running - your working, and if you don't work your times wont count!'[/b][/i]
| zzyzx | 07-09-2003 02:53 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B]
I believe that the WRX, Type R, and the 330 are all VERY close to each other and it becomes course and driver dependent who would win. At the Tours, the R and 330 are favored, at the Pros, the WRX is favored.
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
The SCCA disagrees as the 330 is being booted out of DS as of Jan 1, 2004.
IMO, a 330 [b]will win[/b] this year at Nats in DS.
Regarding your front swaybar - why do you even have a larger swaybar on a car with terminal understeer? Remove it.
- Steve
[B]
I believe that the WRX, Type R, and the 330 are all VERY close to each other and it becomes course and driver dependent who would win. At the Tours, the R and 330 are favored, at the Pros, the WRX is favored.
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
The SCCA disagrees as the 330 is being booted out of DS as of Jan 1, 2004.
IMO, a 330 [b]will win[/b] this year at Nats in DS.
Regarding your front swaybar - why do you even have a larger swaybar on a car with terminal understeer? Remove it.
- Steve
| Storm | 07-09-2003 08:13 AM |
Re: lamenting...
�
�
Your advice for taking a slalom is severely wacked......
If you look to the end of the slalom before you get to it, you can judge your speed into it and either stay steady throttle through it or accellerate all the way through it. Lift-turn-gas-etc...is a sign of turning too much too late. Slower times will surely result.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by webkris [/i]
[B]Having 4+ years of motorsports / car control experience ([i]autoX, rallyX, Ice, Driving Schools, etc.[/i]) - let me give my humble opinion. :)
Come on - The NHIS autocross was a go-cart course.
1st gear baby. "Speeds rarely exceeding 40." I hit the rev limiter only during wheel spin ([i]it was raining[/i]). What could I do in 2nd? The car makes HP at 4K, and that's 42MPH in the Neon, and like 38 in the Subaru. My tires suck, my suspension sucks, but my times went down all day - 44, 42, 41, 41, 40, 41 ([i]no cones[/i]). Forty seconds on soaking wet pavement in a one wheel drive Neon ain't bad. Oh yeah - I don't have power steering either :p
KC - would you say - "I haven't met a 2nd gear long course that I had to shift into 1st." ?? "I haven't seen Evil Dead 2 yet..." ;)
Okay - yes - 2nd gear is a good idea for a novice to smooth out lines, and work on car control / wheelspin. Instead of worrying about shifting. As Kha0s mentioned - we were there for fun. We decided to take our "Where is my cars limits?" question off the streets to a safe location.
Now since we're giving out free unsolicited advice. :D
The boys in the white Honda need to smooth out the throttle control, and try some more wet events. The uncontrolled slidways action into the stop box was not a good strong showing from an "instructor" car.
The slalom is: Lift - Turn - Accelerate. Lift - Turn - Accelerate.
I use left foot braking to chill some of the wheelspin, and to rotate the car in the really hard hairpins. You could say "trailbraking" too.
I have some advice for people looking for, and giving advice. Take everything said by an instructor ([i]including me[/i]) with some hesitation. I learn by show - so ask for a ride ([i]in the instructors car[/i]). Try things out - but form your own opinions. Watch the people who are fast - pay attention to the people who look slow but get a fast time. Don't listen to the BS chatter in the pits - I talk out'my ass sometimes too. Find someone who is fast AND smooth - and see if they will give you some advice. Realize sometimes people don't want your honest opinion. It's 80% driver, and 20% car - so tune the nut behind the wheel. Oh, and HAVE FUN OUT THERE!!
Autocross is a freaking downer when your caught up in the ultimate competitiveness of it. :rolleyes:
- Kris
[/B][/QUOTE]
Jay Storm
[url]www.sourcemotorsports.com[/url]
If you look to the end of the slalom before you get to it, you can judge your speed into it and either stay steady throttle through it or accellerate all the way through it. Lift-turn-gas-etc...is a sign of turning too much too late. Slower times will surely result.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by webkris [/i]
[B]Having 4+ years of motorsports / car control experience ([i]autoX, rallyX, Ice, Driving Schools, etc.[/i]) - let me give my humble opinion. :)
Come on - The NHIS autocross was a go-cart course.
1st gear baby. "Speeds rarely exceeding 40." I hit the rev limiter only during wheel spin ([i]it was raining[/i]). What could I do in 2nd? The car makes HP at 4K, and that's 42MPH in the Neon, and like 38 in the Subaru. My tires suck, my suspension sucks, but my times went down all day - 44, 42, 41, 41, 40, 41 ([i]no cones[/i]). Forty seconds on soaking wet pavement in a one wheel drive Neon ain't bad. Oh yeah - I don't have power steering either :p
KC - would you say - "I haven't met a 2nd gear long course that I had to shift into 1st." ?? "I haven't seen Evil Dead 2 yet..." ;)
Okay - yes - 2nd gear is a good idea for a novice to smooth out lines, and work on car control / wheelspin. Instead of worrying about shifting. As Kha0s mentioned - we were there for fun. We decided to take our "Where is my cars limits?" question off the streets to a safe location.
Now since we're giving out free unsolicited advice. :D
The boys in the white Honda need to smooth out the throttle control, and try some more wet events. The uncontrolled slidways action into the stop box was not a good strong showing from an "instructor" car.
The slalom is: Lift - Turn - Accelerate. Lift - Turn - Accelerate.
I use left foot braking to chill some of the wheelspin, and to rotate the car in the really hard hairpins. You could say "trailbraking" too.
I have some advice for people looking for, and giving advice. Take everything said by an instructor ([i]including me[/i]) with some hesitation. I learn by show - so ask for a ride ([i]in the instructors car[/i]). Try things out - but form your own opinions. Watch the people who are fast - pay attention to the people who look slow but get a fast time. Don't listen to the BS chatter in the pits - I talk out'my ass sometimes too. Find someone who is fast AND smooth - and see if they will give you some advice. Realize sometimes people don't want your honest opinion. It's 80% driver, and 20% car - so tune the nut behind the wheel. Oh, and HAVE FUN OUT THERE!!
Autocross is a freaking downer when your caught up in the ultimate competitiveness of it. :rolleyes:
- Kris
[/B][/QUOTE]
Jay Storm
[url]www.sourcemotorsports.com[/url]
| solo-x | 07-09-2003 08:57 AM |
Re: lamenting...
�
�
[QUOTE]Come on - The NHIS autocross was a go-cart course.
1st gear baby. "Speeds rarely exceeding 40." I hit the rev limiter only during wheel spin ([i]it was raining[/i]). What could I do in 2nd? The car makes HP at 4K, and that's 42MPH in the Neon, and like 38 in the Subaru. My tires suck, my suspension sucks, but my times went down all day - 44, 42, 41, 41, 40, 41 ([i]no cones[/i]). Forty seconds on soaking wet pavement in a one wheel drive Neon ain't bad. Oh yeah - I don't have power steering either :p
[/QUOTE]
yes, it was a go-kart track, and yes it was raining. and yes, i did hear you hit the limiter in first gear, a lot. but i don't recall your tires ever stopped spinning. what good is all the power in the world if it's being wasted in wheelspin? as another example, i instructed the guy driving the 240sx. he felt 1st was ideal too, but after i convinced him to try it in second, he discovered he still had enough power to spin up the rear tires. torque is what was needed on this course, not HP.
[QUOTE]
Okay - yes - 2nd gear is a good idea for a novice to smooth out lines, and work on car control / wheelspin. Instead of worrying about shifting.[/QUOTE]
second gear is good for _everyone_. in autocross, smooth is _the_ most important thing. sometime when you have some time to play with your car and get a feel for the gearing do a couple shifts from first to second and back. find your top speed in 1st and what that translates to in 2nd gear. in my car, 1st gear is good until about 28mph at redline. that translates to 4.2k rpm in 2nd gear. the slowest i ever went on that course at NHIS was roughly 20mph, maybe a little slower, but not much. can you see how taking .150 seconds to downshift to first, to accelerate 8mph and then spend another .150 seconds upshifting back to second can be slower? that's assuming i actually get my one-wheel-drive to hook that tire up. it doesn't take very much longer to accelerate from 20mph to 28mph in 2nd gear anyhow. yeah, i might save .1 seconds _if_ i successfully pull off the shift in .150 seconds both times _and_ hook up enough to put the power down. but then, i can also save .1 seconds just by putting the car 6" closer to the cones. :D
as i said at the event, short tight courses are all about speed _maintenance_, not acceleration or max speed. i spent _very_ little time on that course accelerating or braking.
[QUOTE]As Kha0s mentioned - we were there for fun. We decided to take our "Where is my cars limits?" question off the streets to a safe location.[/QUOTE]
i applaud that decision. but for me "having fun" also includes improving my driving. i apologize for assuming others felt the same way. i saw something in your driving that i new a small change would make a big improvement in time. it just so happened it was a perfect example for this thread. if i had known you gentlemen were on this board i would have asked for your permission to use your experience as an example. and please forgive me for forgetting the _exact_ conversation. i do remember distinctly saying "leave it in second", to which was replied "but it won't stay on boost if i do!".
[QUOTE]Now since we're giving out free unsolicited advice. :D
The boys in the white Honda need to smooth out the throttle control, and try some more wet events. The uncontrolled slidways action into the stop box was not a good strong showing from an "instructor" car.[/QUOTE]
hehe. that was my co-driver joe. he found out what happens when you brake and turn the wheel at the same time. :lol: oh, and we live in new england. how many rainy weekends have you seen this year? well, i've autocrossed every weekend since _march_. :D
[QUOTE]I have some advice for people looking for, and giving advice. Take everything said by an instructor ([i]including me[/i]) with some hesitation. I learn by show - so ask for a ride ([i]in the instructors car[/i]). Try things out - but form your own opinions. Watch the people who are fast - pay attention to the people who look slow but get a fast time.[/QUOTE]
that's good advice. the only thing i might add is to have the instructor drive your car while you are in it. i can promise you that my civic doesn't drive anything like a suby. :D
[QUOTE]Don't listen to the BS chatter in the pits...[/QUOTE]
just make sure it's really BS chatter that you are ignoring. i don't give out advice that i don't honestly think will make you faster. however, like you said above, you do need to form your own opinion. someone told my co-driver at last weekends event that they could take a chicago box without braking. well, apprantely they had more grip then my car has, cause my co-driver tried to take it flat and paid for it with a spin.
[QUOTE]
SIDELINE --------------------------------------------------
[url=http://www.wmc-bmwcca.org/results.asp?id=15&action=show&class=*&show=r&show=f]Results - from the NHIS event we are referring to.[/url]
Why don't they list all the runs?
Why don't non members get listed?
That's too bad. :(
[i][b]'WORKERS! We need workers! If you aren't running - your working, and if you don't work your times wont count!'[/b][/i] [/B][/QUOTE]
hmm....never looked at results before so i never noticed that. i'll mention it to mell and lee.
nate-i'm a poor writer, so ignore gramatical errors and if it seems like i'm attacking someone, i'm really not. :D
1st gear baby. "Speeds rarely exceeding 40." I hit the rev limiter only during wheel spin ([i]it was raining[/i]). What could I do in 2nd? The car makes HP at 4K, and that's 42MPH in the Neon, and like 38 in the Subaru. My tires suck, my suspension sucks, but my times went down all day - 44, 42, 41, 41, 40, 41 ([i]no cones[/i]). Forty seconds on soaking wet pavement in a one wheel drive Neon ain't bad. Oh yeah - I don't have power steering either :p
[/QUOTE]
yes, it was a go-kart track, and yes it was raining. and yes, i did hear you hit the limiter in first gear, a lot. but i don't recall your tires ever stopped spinning. what good is all the power in the world if it's being wasted in wheelspin? as another example, i instructed the guy driving the 240sx. he felt 1st was ideal too, but after i convinced him to try it in second, he discovered he still had enough power to spin up the rear tires. torque is what was needed on this course, not HP.
[QUOTE]
Okay - yes - 2nd gear is a good idea for a novice to smooth out lines, and work on car control / wheelspin. Instead of worrying about shifting.[/QUOTE]
second gear is good for _everyone_. in autocross, smooth is _the_ most important thing. sometime when you have some time to play with your car and get a feel for the gearing do a couple shifts from first to second and back. find your top speed in 1st and what that translates to in 2nd gear. in my car, 1st gear is good until about 28mph at redline. that translates to 4.2k rpm in 2nd gear. the slowest i ever went on that course at NHIS was roughly 20mph, maybe a little slower, but not much. can you see how taking .150 seconds to downshift to first, to accelerate 8mph and then spend another .150 seconds upshifting back to second can be slower? that's assuming i actually get my one-wheel-drive to hook that tire up. it doesn't take very much longer to accelerate from 20mph to 28mph in 2nd gear anyhow. yeah, i might save .1 seconds _if_ i successfully pull off the shift in .150 seconds both times _and_ hook up enough to put the power down. but then, i can also save .1 seconds just by putting the car 6" closer to the cones. :D
as i said at the event, short tight courses are all about speed _maintenance_, not acceleration or max speed. i spent _very_ little time on that course accelerating or braking.
[QUOTE]As Kha0s mentioned - we were there for fun. We decided to take our "Where is my cars limits?" question off the streets to a safe location.[/QUOTE]
i applaud that decision. but for me "having fun" also includes improving my driving. i apologize for assuming others felt the same way. i saw something in your driving that i new a small change would make a big improvement in time. it just so happened it was a perfect example for this thread. if i had known you gentlemen were on this board i would have asked for your permission to use your experience as an example. and please forgive me for forgetting the _exact_ conversation. i do remember distinctly saying "leave it in second", to which was replied "but it won't stay on boost if i do!".
[QUOTE]Now since we're giving out free unsolicited advice. :D
The boys in the white Honda need to smooth out the throttle control, and try some more wet events. The uncontrolled slidways action into the stop box was not a good strong showing from an "instructor" car.[/QUOTE]
hehe. that was my co-driver joe. he found out what happens when you brake and turn the wheel at the same time. :lol: oh, and we live in new england. how many rainy weekends have you seen this year? well, i've autocrossed every weekend since _march_. :D
[QUOTE]I have some advice for people looking for, and giving advice. Take everything said by an instructor ([i]including me[/i]) with some hesitation. I learn by show - so ask for a ride ([i]in the instructors car[/i]). Try things out - but form your own opinions. Watch the people who are fast - pay attention to the people who look slow but get a fast time.[/QUOTE]
that's good advice. the only thing i might add is to have the instructor drive your car while you are in it. i can promise you that my civic doesn't drive anything like a suby. :D
[QUOTE]Don't listen to the BS chatter in the pits...[/QUOTE]
just make sure it's really BS chatter that you are ignoring. i don't give out advice that i don't honestly think will make you faster. however, like you said above, you do need to form your own opinion. someone told my co-driver at last weekends event that they could take a chicago box without braking. well, apprantely they had more grip then my car has, cause my co-driver tried to take it flat and paid for it with a spin.
[QUOTE]
SIDELINE --------------------------------------------------
[url=http://www.wmc-bmwcca.org/results.asp?id=15&action=show&class=*&show=r&show=f]Results - from the NHIS event we are referring to.[/url]
Why don't they list all the runs?
Why don't non members get listed?
That's too bad. :(
[i][b]'WORKERS! We need workers! If you aren't running - your working, and if you don't work your times wont count!'[/b][/i] [/B][/QUOTE]
hmm....never looked at results before so i never noticed that. i'll mention it to mell and lee.
nate-i'm a poor writer, so ignore gramatical errors and if it seems like i'm attacking someone, i'm really not. :D
| Kha0S | 07-09-2003 09:25 AM |
Re: Re: lamenting...
�
�
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by solo-x [/i]
[B]
if i had known you gentlemen were on this board i would have asked for your permission to use your experience as an example. and please forgive me for forgetting the _exact_ conversation. i do remember distinctly saying "leave it in second", to which was replied "but it won't stay on boost if i do!".
[/B][/QUOTE]
Ah, see, now I [b]did[/b] say that, and it was true. Driving a low-compression 2.0 motor that makes under 50HP at 2500 RPM gives you absolutely no throttle response whatsoever.
I come from a different school of car control, one in which power availability is key, and throttle/braking control is the part you practice. In rallying, you rely on power and braking to provide weight transfer between the front and rear of the car. The more power and braking you have, the faster you can perform that weight transfer, and the faster you can be.
That technique is for a low-grip surface. My first run out was an experiment to see if my nearly bald Falkens on a very wet parking lot classified as "low grip." Indeed, it did, but the course was much too tight for any real rotation.
I'm not saying that I'm a fast driver, in the least, on tarmac. I'm frankly not a fast driver anywhere (that's why I co-drive! :D )... but the asphalt is, by far, my biggest downfall. At the same time, I'm not particularly interested in asphalt either, so I was using the day as an experiment to practice some of my other skills... different car, new season, and my first event since the ice racing season back in March, and I was just trying to get back in the saddle after a long time driving an old, underpowered Audi with blown struts. :D
/Andrew
[B]
if i had known you gentlemen were on this board i would have asked for your permission to use your experience as an example. and please forgive me for forgetting the _exact_ conversation. i do remember distinctly saying "leave it in second", to which was replied "but it won't stay on boost if i do!".
[/B][/QUOTE]
Ah, see, now I [b]did[/b] say that, and it was true. Driving a low-compression 2.0 motor that makes under 50HP at 2500 RPM gives you absolutely no throttle response whatsoever.
I come from a different school of car control, one in which power availability is key, and throttle/braking control is the part you practice. In rallying, you rely on power and braking to provide weight transfer between the front and rear of the car. The more power and braking you have, the faster you can perform that weight transfer, and the faster you can be.
That technique is for a low-grip surface. My first run out was an experiment to see if my nearly bald Falkens on a very wet parking lot classified as "low grip." Indeed, it did, but the course was much too tight for any real rotation.
I'm not saying that I'm a fast driver, in the least, on tarmac. I'm frankly not a fast driver anywhere (that's why I co-drive! :D )... but the asphalt is, by far, my biggest downfall. At the same time, I'm not particularly interested in asphalt either, so I was using the day as an experiment to practice some of my other skills... different car, new season, and my first event since the ice racing season back in March, and I was just trying to get back in the saddle after a long time driving an old, underpowered Audi with blown struts. :D
/Andrew
| ConeMasher | 07-09-2003 11:58 AM |
We're getting a bit off track here with all the 'he-said-she-said'.
Regardless, we're discussing techniques to make the WRX more competitive in D-Stock SCCA Solo II competition.
Steve said:
[QUOTE]
Regarding your front swaybar - why do you even have a larger swaybar on a car with terminal understeer? Remove it.
[/QUOTE]
While the bigger front bar = more understeer is technically correct, you must take into account the characteristics of the SPECIFIC car you're dealing with. As the WRX has rather limited static front camber possibilities (-1.5 max), and a McStrut suspension, it tends to lose all that camber in the turns, roll the tires over, and give up alot of grip. Stiffening up the front bar to preserve that static camber by reducing body roll (even at the expense of adding some understeer due to weight transfer differences) results in a net gain for front grip.
The result? Faster times.
-- Gary
Regardless, we're discussing techniques to make the WRX more competitive in D-Stock SCCA Solo II competition.
Steve said:
[QUOTE]
Regarding your front swaybar - why do you even have a larger swaybar on a car with terminal understeer? Remove it.
[/QUOTE]
While the bigger front bar = more understeer is technically correct, you must take into account the characteristics of the SPECIFIC car you're dealing with. As the WRX has rather limited static front camber possibilities (-1.5 max), and a McStrut suspension, it tends to lose all that camber in the turns, roll the tires over, and give up alot of grip. Stiffening up the front bar to preserve that static camber by reducing body roll (even at the expense of adding some understeer due to weight transfer differences) results in a net gain for front grip.
The result? Faster times.
-- Gary
| zzyzx | 07-09-2003 02:16 PM |
[QUOTE]
While the bigger front bar = more understeer is technically correct, you must take into account the characteristics of the SPECIFIC car you're dealing with.
[/quote]
LOL, Ok, I'll bite. What is it about the Impreza that I'm missing here that you can help clarify for me? Are you claiming that less body roll in an Impreza is equivalent to increase grip?
[quote]
As the WRX has rather limited static front camber possibilities (-1.5 max), and a McStrut suspension, it tends to lose all that camber in the turns
[/quote]
That's correct. Such is the compromised geometry of MacStruts...
[quote]
roll the tires over, and give up alot of grip.
[/quote]
Well, keeping in mind the specific situation we're talking about here - competing in D-Stock: When's the last time you rolled over the sidewalls on a Hoosier A3S03? How about a Kumho Victoracer/Ecsta V700?
[quote]
Stiffening up the front bar to preserve that static camber by reducing body roll (even at the expense of adding some understeer due to weight transfer differences) results in a net gain for front grip.
[/quote]
Really? Did you do some back-to-back comparisons that you can share with us? I'd really be interested...
Out sheer of curiosity, have you ever even competed in an Impreza w/o a front swaybar?
- Steve
While the bigger front bar = more understeer is technically correct, you must take into account the characteristics of the SPECIFIC car you're dealing with.
[/quote]
LOL, Ok, I'll bite. What is it about the Impreza that I'm missing here that you can help clarify for me? Are you claiming that less body roll in an Impreza is equivalent to increase grip?
[quote]
As the WRX has rather limited static front camber possibilities (-1.5 max), and a McStrut suspension, it tends to lose all that camber in the turns
[/quote]
That's correct. Such is the compromised geometry of MacStruts...
[quote]
roll the tires over, and give up alot of grip.
[/quote]
Well, keeping in mind the specific situation we're talking about here - competing in D-Stock: When's the last time you rolled over the sidewalls on a Hoosier A3S03? How about a Kumho Victoracer/Ecsta V700?
[quote]
Stiffening up the front bar to preserve that static camber by reducing body roll (even at the expense of adding some understeer due to weight transfer differences) results in a net gain for front grip.
[/quote]
Really? Did you do some back-to-back comparisons that you can share with us? I'd really be interested...
Out sheer of curiosity, have you ever even competed in an Impreza w/o a front swaybar?
- Steve
| trhoppe | 07-09-2003 05:46 PM |
[QUOTE]Really? Did you do some back-to-back comparisons that you can share with us? I'd really be interested...[/QUOTE] Yes I did. I found a slightly bigger then stock swaybar increased front end grip. Once you went too big, the car would develop understeer.
[QUOTE]Out sheer of curiosity, have you ever even competed in an Impreza w/o a front swaybar?[/QUOTE] Yup, the car wallowed so much that it was just about undrivable in slaloms.
-Tom
[QUOTE]Out sheer of curiosity, have you ever even competed in an Impreza w/o a front swaybar?[/QUOTE] Yup, the car wallowed so much that it was just about undrivable in slaloms.
-Tom
| zzyzx | 07-09-2003 06:24 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B]Yup, the car wallowed so much that it was just about undrivable in slaloms.
[/B][/QUOTE]
The original poster has Konis. I would venture to guess that that wallowing could be readily solved with proper rebound damping...
- Steve
[B]Yup, the car wallowed so much that it was just about undrivable in slaloms.
[/B][/QUOTE]
The original poster has Konis. I would venture to guess that that wallowing could be readily solved with proper rebound damping...
- Steve
| trhoppe | 07-09-2003 10:34 PM |
That was with my Konis :)
| ANZAC_1915 | 07-09-2003 11:22 PM |
STi 19mm front bar?
In any event, with the same driver the ITR will be faster in D Stock. Face it.
Glenn
In any event, with the same driver the ITR will be faster in D Stock. Face it.
Glenn
| ConeMasher | 07-10-2003 09:56 AM |
Gee Glenn, thanks for the positive feedback. *rolls eyes*
Yes, the ITR is a beast, but I think a 330 will do it this year at nats. But the WRX is still the car to have for Pro Solo, and still can trophy at Nats in Solo II. Regardless, we're trying to discuss becoming more effective in either venue, as we already own these cars.
Steve,
Tom basically answered my question. Yes we tested our setups... in my case I built on the experience of several national caliber WRX drivers that went before me, so I didn't have to go through multiple iterations of bar sizes. Rather, I simply raced with my Konis and V700s with the stock bar, then went with a 24mm adjustable bar (as per their recommendations). I found an improvement in both grip, responsiveness, and reduced shoulder wear.
[QUOTE] When's the last time you rolled over the sidewalls on a Hoosier A3S03? How about a Kumho Victoracer/Ecsta V700?[/QUOTE]
Last time I ran anything less than 42 PSI in a heavy front-biased plow known as a WRX!
-- Gary
Yes, the ITR is a beast, but I think a 330 will do it this year at nats. But the WRX is still the car to have for Pro Solo, and still can trophy at Nats in Solo II. Regardless, we're trying to discuss becoming more effective in either venue, as we already own these cars.
Steve,
Tom basically answered my question. Yes we tested our setups... in my case I built on the experience of several national caliber WRX drivers that went before me, so I didn't have to go through multiple iterations of bar sizes. Rather, I simply raced with my Konis and V700s with the stock bar, then went with a 24mm adjustable bar (as per their recommendations). I found an improvement in both grip, responsiveness, and reduced shoulder wear.
[QUOTE] When's the last time you rolled over the sidewalls on a Hoosier A3S03? How about a Kumho Victoracer/Ecsta V700?[/QUOTE]
Last time I ran anything less than 42 PSI in a heavy front-biased plow known as a WRX!
-- Gary
| solo-x | 07-10-2003 11:02 AM |
i assume from the first original post that you think the itr has more power coming off the corners. if i'm wrong, some of this won't apply.
imo, horsepower doesn't win autocrosses. the ability to put power down early in a corner and maintain a good average speed throughtout the course is key. a lighter car makes this easier in all aspects.
another difference between a light car and a heavy car is the ratio of tire to vehicle weight. i've never seen the itr you ran against, but i'd be willing to bet it probably had 225 hoosiers on it. at the very least it had 205 hoosiers. doing a very rough and general comparison, the itr weighs about 2500lbs and we'll say it's on 205's. 2500/205=12.19. your wrx weighs roughly 3100lbs and it's on 215's. 3100/215=14.4. if the itr was on 225's, that ratio drops to 11.1. (this is not a direct correlation, but you can see what i'm getting at)
one thing i might suggest is that you try a wider tire. some back-to-back comparison's would be nice to see if maintaining a higher speed through a corner is truly faster for a wrx, but my guess is that it is. hoosier makes a tire as wide as 245 on a 16" wheel. that would get your ratio to about 12.6. there is a particular DSP IS300 and 330I that are both using the biggest effin tire that can possibly fit, and saying to hell with acceleration. so far their success hasn't been too overly impressive, but then, those cars weigh nearly twice what hoeschlers fiat weighs and are in first year development. another benefit of running the wider tire is that your tires will last longer. :D
the other thing i wonder. how well is the car coming off the turns? can you get right on the power very early in the turn, or do you have to wait before getting on it? i've found that making my car rotate a very little bit more (changing pressure from say 40psi to 45psi) is good for nearly 1 second on some course types. ideally, a fwd or awd car should be nearly loose enough that you _have_ to be on power to keep it straight (with compromises to being able to drive it in slaloms and such). on my underpowered and 200lb overweight pig, i've found that a lot of grip+not a lot of acceleration+really loose setup=very compressed braking zones that allow me to keep my momentum up and accelerate almost immediately after turn in. i have one of the slower sts cars out there but can hang with lighter cars with nearly the same power because of how the car turns and handles.
hope that helps.
nate
edit: hoosiers 245/45/16 has a rolling diameter of about 24.5 and the 225/50/16 has a rolling diameter of about 24.6. how big of a variation can you have front to rear before the awd gets screwy? can ya even fit a 245 hoosier? tire stagger+big front swaybar=really fast DS scooby :D (fyi, the 215 is 22.7" around)
imo, horsepower doesn't win autocrosses. the ability to put power down early in a corner and maintain a good average speed throughtout the course is key. a lighter car makes this easier in all aspects.
another difference between a light car and a heavy car is the ratio of tire to vehicle weight. i've never seen the itr you ran against, but i'd be willing to bet it probably had 225 hoosiers on it. at the very least it had 205 hoosiers. doing a very rough and general comparison, the itr weighs about 2500lbs and we'll say it's on 205's. 2500/205=12.19. your wrx weighs roughly 3100lbs and it's on 215's. 3100/215=14.4. if the itr was on 225's, that ratio drops to 11.1. (this is not a direct correlation, but you can see what i'm getting at)
one thing i might suggest is that you try a wider tire. some back-to-back comparison's would be nice to see if maintaining a higher speed through a corner is truly faster for a wrx, but my guess is that it is. hoosier makes a tire as wide as 245 on a 16" wheel. that would get your ratio to about 12.6. there is a particular DSP IS300 and 330I that are both using the biggest effin tire that can possibly fit, and saying to hell with acceleration. so far their success hasn't been too overly impressive, but then, those cars weigh nearly twice what hoeschlers fiat weighs and are in first year development. another benefit of running the wider tire is that your tires will last longer. :D
the other thing i wonder. how well is the car coming off the turns? can you get right on the power very early in the turn, or do you have to wait before getting on it? i've found that making my car rotate a very little bit more (changing pressure from say 40psi to 45psi) is good for nearly 1 second on some course types. ideally, a fwd or awd car should be nearly loose enough that you _have_ to be on power to keep it straight (with compromises to being able to drive it in slaloms and such). on my underpowered and 200lb overweight pig, i've found that a lot of grip+not a lot of acceleration+really loose setup=very compressed braking zones that allow me to keep my momentum up and accelerate almost immediately after turn in. i have one of the slower sts cars out there but can hang with lighter cars with nearly the same power because of how the car turns and handles.
hope that helps.
nate
edit: hoosiers 245/45/16 has a rolling diameter of about 24.5 and the 225/50/16 has a rolling diameter of about 24.6. how big of a variation can you have front to rear before the awd gets screwy? can ya even fit a 245 hoosier? tire stagger+big front swaybar=really fast DS scooby :D (fyi, the 215 is 22.7" around)
| solo-x | 07-10-2003 11:21 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by zzyzx [/i]
[B]
The original poster has Konis. I would venture to guess that that wallowing could be readily solved with proper rebound damping...
- Steve [/B][/QUOTE]
i've tried dialing out the wallow in my sts car (with SPSS valved koni's) when i tried no front swaybar and it didn't work. no front swaybar is a roadracer trick that i honestly don't think works in an autocross car. i don't even think it's a good trick on a roadrace car, but if i ever start into that sport that opinion may change. :D
nate
[B]
The original poster has Konis. I would venture to guess that that wallowing could be readily solved with proper rebound damping...
- Steve [/B][/QUOTE]
i've tried dialing out the wallow in my sts car (with SPSS valved koni's) when i tried no front swaybar and it didn't work. no front swaybar is a roadracer trick that i honestly don't think works in an autocross car. i don't even think it's a good trick on a roadrace car, but if i ever start into that sport that opinion may change. :D
nate
| zzyzx | 07-10-2003 11:43 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by solo-x [/i]
[B]
i've tried dialing out the wallow in my sts car (with SPSS valved koni's) when i tried no front swaybar and it didn't work. no front swaybar is a roadracer trick that i honestly don't think works in an autocross car. i don't even think it's a good trick on a roadrace car, but if i ever start into that sport that opinion may change. :D
[/B][/QUOTE]
Well Nate, I ended up 0.283 seconds behind you last year at Nats in 5th as opposed to you're 3rd place and the car had no swaybars at all. Go figure. :alien:
That said, I'm Club Racing now as well at autox, but the no swaybar setup was inherited from my autox setup, not vice versa. :)
- Steve Sulatycki
[B]
i've tried dialing out the wallow in my sts car (with SPSS valved koni's) when i tried no front swaybar and it didn't work. no front swaybar is a roadracer trick that i honestly don't think works in an autocross car. i don't even think it's a good trick on a roadrace car, but if i ever start into that sport that opinion may change. :D
[/B][/QUOTE]
Well Nate, I ended up 0.283 seconds behind you last year at Nats in 5th as opposed to you're 3rd place and the car had no swaybars at all. Go figure. :alien:
That said, I'm Club Racing now as well at autox, but the no swaybar setup was inherited from my autox setup, not vice versa. :)
- Steve Sulatycki
| solo-x | 07-10-2003 04:16 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by zzyzx [/i]
[B]
Well Nate, I ended up 0.283 seconds behind you last year at Nats in 5th as opposed to you're 3rd place and the car had no swaybars at all. Go figure. :alien:
That said, I'm Club Racing now as well at autox, but the no swaybar setup was inherited from my autox setup, not vice versa. :)
- Steve Sulatycki [/B][/QUOTE]
ok, let me change my comment. for us sucky drivers, removing the front swaybar is bad. :D the good drivers can make it work.:alien:
nate
[B]
Well Nate, I ended up 0.283 seconds behind you last year at Nats in 5th as opposed to you're 3rd place and the car had no swaybars at all. Go figure. :alien:
That said, I'm Club Racing now as well at autox, but the no swaybar setup was inherited from my autox setup, not vice versa. :)
- Steve Sulatycki [/B][/QUOTE]
ok, let me change my comment. for us sucky drivers, removing the front swaybar is bad. :D the good drivers can make it work.:alien:
nate
| ConeMasher | 07-10-2003 05:14 PM |
[QUOTE]
ok, let me change my comment. for us sucky drivers, removing the front swaybar is bad. the good drivers can make it work.
[/QUOTE]
Although I bet you'd have to be an alien to get it to work in stock class, where we can't alter spring rates and can only work with struts.
-- Gary
ok, let me change my comment. for us sucky drivers, removing the front swaybar is bad. the good drivers can make it work.
[/QUOTE]
Although I bet you'd have to be an alien to get it to work in stock class, where we can't alter spring rates and can only work with struts.
-- Gary
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