| makofoto | 04-06-2004 03:51 AM |
Possible Solution to Mako's Camber problems?
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Hey Everyone ... as you probably know ... I recently, prematurely shredded my Victoracers ... partly because of over driving ... but also because my SM WRX Wgn would not maintain the maximum approx. -3.25 front camber that we set ... while under hard cornering. See the photo at the end of this message. There was a consensus that this was due to my car being under sprung. I need a cheap (temporary) solution.
I can get stiffer Tein springs for my Tein Wagon Coil overs ...
I can only go 100 lbs more until these coil overs would have to be re-valved ...
Right now my springs are 280 in the front ... and 168 in the rear ... So, I can go up to 380 and 270 ..
This will only cost me $160 ... plus probably shipping ... a DO-ABLE temporary solution.
Is this a Worth While temporary fix ?
Would these new Spring Rates be noticeable helpful?
Money is tight at the moment ... but I'm anxious to get going again. Eventually I might get the new ProDrive Active Suspension ... or something like Tein RA's ...
My next problem is deciding on which tires to get ...
With the stiffer springs ... should I get Victoracers again ... or is that a waste ... should I get something like Azenis or RA-1's or T/A KD's while I learn to drive ...
Thanks! ... Mako ... Missing the Action!
ps - should I also get an Anti-Lift kit for my SM Suby ... or stiffer bushings (that would probably be expensive to add?) ... would these help maintain negative camber ... and be worthwhile for the expense?
With these stiffer springs, do I need to raise my car ... front is 13.5 inches ... mid wheel to fender? Not sure of the rear ...
[IMG]http://images5.fotki.com/v67/photos/4/43793/818953/camberstudy-vi.jpg[/IMG]
My other posts have noted that my Wgn is a bit under 3,000 lbs, 1" Hollow Hotchkis sway bars, rear at it's softest setting, solid endlinks in the rear, oem endlinks in the front (waiting for a Hotchkis fix for my front solid endlinks), strut tower braces, rear of the car gutted, Vishnu Stg 1, EcuTek Dual Map ... running 17.5 psi boost, light weight, 12 lb battery, STI IC, IC sprayer, NRX camber plate, rear camber bolts ... set at max, about -2.0, toe-out front and rear ... was 1/16th total when the front was - 2.5 and the rear - 1.0.
I can get stiffer Tein springs for my Tein Wagon Coil overs ...
I can only go 100 lbs more until these coil overs would have to be re-valved ...
Right now my springs are 280 in the front ... and 168 in the rear ... So, I can go up to 380 and 270 ..
This will only cost me $160 ... plus probably shipping ... a DO-ABLE temporary solution.
Is this a Worth While temporary fix ?
Would these new Spring Rates be noticeable helpful?
Money is tight at the moment ... but I'm anxious to get going again. Eventually I might get the new ProDrive Active Suspension ... or something like Tein RA's ...
My next problem is deciding on which tires to get ...
With the stiffer springs ... should I get Victoracers again ... or is that a waste ... should I get something like Azenis or RA-1's or T/A KD's while I learn to drive ...
Thanks! ... Mako ... Missing the Action!
ps - should I also get an Anti-Lift kit for my SM Suby ... or stiffer bushings (that would probably be expensive to add?) ... would these help maintain negative camber ... and be worthwhile for the expense?
With these stiffer springs, do I need to raise my car ... front is 13.5 inches ... mid wheel to fender? Not sure of the rear ...
[IMG]http://images5.fotki.com/v67/photos/4/43793/818953/camberstudy-vi.jpg[/IMG]
My other posts have noted that my Wgn is a bit under 3,000 lbs, 1" Hollow Hotchkis sway bars, rear at it's softest setting, solid endlinks in the rear, oem endlinks in the front (waiting for a Hotchkis fix for my front solid endlinks), strut tower braces, rear of the car gutted, Vishnu Stg 1, EcuTek Dual Map ... running 17.5 psi boost, light weight, 12 lb battery, STI IC, IC sprayer, NRX camber plate, rear camber bolts ... set at max, about -2.0, toe-out front and rear ... was 1/16th total when the front was - 2.5 and the rear - 1.0.
| sdecker | 04-06-2004 08:50 AM |
Mako:
Before you purchase those new springs, you should do some more research on what rates you need. I don't drive a wagon so I don't want to talk out of my ass here...but those spring rates seem awfully far apart in terms of the split.
[COLOR=red]NOTE: I am not a suspension expert, nor do I play one on TV. Feel free to pick me apart. I'm just pointing out some things that are inconsistent with my (admittedly limited) knowledge and experience.[/COLOR]
I am also going to conveniently ignore camber, load range, car handling balance, etc. I know there are a lot of variables I am not accounting for. ;)
Looking at Brian's site ([url]http://www.northursalia.com/techdocs/spring/spring.html[/url]):
Stock WRX wagon = 163F/132R for a split ratio of ~1.24
Stock WRX sedan = 163F/119R for a split ratio of ~1.36
Now, let's look at some of the popular aftermarket springs. I tried to choose spring sets that I have seen used on 02/03 wagons in the past:
GDA STI sport springs = 200F/185R for a split of 1.08
Eibach Prokit for 02-03 wagon = 171F/160R for a split of 1.07
Prodrive P1 = 215F/195R for a split of 1.10
Tein Hard = 308F/280R for a split of 1.10
The reason I'm bringing this up is that most cars have a 'sweet spot' in terms of where they like their spring split. Currently, your spring rates are at 280F/168R, for a split ratio of 1.67. Upgrading to the rates you mentioned (380F/270R) would result in a split ratio of 1.41.
Maybe that 1.41 will work for you. It is certainly a lot closer to stock than what you have right now in terms of balance, but it is not anywhere close to the ratios on many of the linear rate aftermarket springs.
Just my two pennies. I'm trying to throw some things out there to assist, not claim to be a suspension expert. Maybe you should conduct a poll of wagon autocrossers and see what spring rates (and splits) they run before dropping the 160 bucks on the coils...
Good luck -- I'd like to see what other people think of this.
Scott
Before you purchase those new springs, you should do some more research on what rates you need. I don't drive a wagon so I don't want to talk out of my ass here...but those spring rates seem awfully far apart in terms of the split.
[COLOR=red]NOTE: I am not a suspension expert, nor do I play one on TV. Feel free to pick me apart. I'm just pointing out some things that are inconsistent with my (admittedly limited) knowledge and experience.[/COLOR]
I am also going to conveniently ignore camber, load range, car handling balance, etc. I know there are a lot of variables I am not accounting for. ;)
Looking at Brian's site ([url]http://www.northursalia.com/techdocs/spring/spring.html[/url]):
Stock WRX wagon = 163F/132R for a split ratio of ~1.24
Stock WRX sedan = 163F/119R for a split ratio of ~1.36
Now, let's look at some of the popular aftermarket springs. I tried to choose spring sets that I have seen used on 02/03 wagons in the past:
GDA STI sport springs = 200F/185R for a split of 1.08
Eibach Prokit for 02-03 wagon = 171F/160R for a split of 1.07
Prodrive P1 = 215F/195R for a split of 1.10
Tein Hard = 308F/280R for a split of 1.10
The reason I'm bringing this up is that most cars have a 'sweet spot' in terms of where they like their spring split. Currently, your spring rates are at 280F/168R, for a split ratio of 1.67. Upgrading to the rates you mentioned (380F/270R) would result in a split ratio of 1.41.
Maybe that 1.41 will work for you. It is certainly a lot closer to stock than what you have right now in terms of balance, but it is not anywhere close to the ratios on many of the linear rate aftermarket springs.
Just my two pennies. I'm trying to throw some things out there to assist, not claim to be a suspension expert. Maybe you should conduct a poll of wagon autocrossers and see what spring rates (and splits) they run before dropping the 160 bucks on the coils...
Good luck -- I'd like to see what other people think of this.
Scott
| makofoto | 04-06-2004 10:13 AM |
Good point Scott ... someone even mentioned having more spring in the back ... to get more sedan like handling ... although the wagons do O.K. ... I will try to find out what spring rates/ratios others are using ... thanks!
| KC | 04-06-2004 10:15 AM |
I'm running 8K front 10K rear on my Tein RAs FWIW.
--kC
--kC
| sdecker | 04-06-2004 10:44 AM |
So Mako, there's at least one very accomplished wagon autox'er who actually prefers stiffer springs in the rear...
Perhaps a search of wagon autox setups is in order.
I'd personally do a complete reset back to zero and start all over before spending any more money. I definitely would not spend 160 bucks on new coils without doing a lot more research first. There are some problems that cannot be solved simply by throwing more money at them.
And to address your tire question in the first post, I'd spend as little money as I could on tires right now if I were you. The setup of the car/driver is currently evil to your tires. You have an excellent chance of ruining the expensive new ones. Go for cheap street tires or maybe Azenis/MX's until you get the car dialed. Once it's handling the way you want, put your R compounds back on.
IMHO. ;)
Scott
Perhaps a search of wagon autox setups is in order.
I'd personally do a complete reset back to zero and start all over before spending any more money. I definitely would not spend 160 bucks on new coils without doing a lot more research first. There are some problems that cannot be solved simply by throwing more money at them.
And to address your tire question in the first post, I'd spend as little money as I could on tires right now if I were you. The setup of the car/driver is currently evil to your tires. You have an excellent chance of ruining the expensive new ones. Go for cheap street tires or maybe Azenis/MX's until you get the car dialed. Once it's handling the way you want, put your R compounds back on.
IMHO. ;)
Scott
| makofoto | 04-06-2004 10:48 AM |
If I went back to zero ... I'd really start over ... and buy a STI or Evo and drive in a stock-ish class. :furious: :lol:
| buster | 04-06-2004 11:20 AM |
I would bet the the stock strut top mounts allow for a lot of movement, you might want to look there as well.
| makofoto | 04-06-2004 11:29 AM |
I'm not using Stock Strut Tops ... NRX tops:
[IMG]http://images5.fotki.com/v61/photos/4/43793/304279/NRXinstalledCU-vi.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://images5.fotki.com/v61/photos/4/43793/304279/NRXinstalledCU-vi.jpg[/IMG]
| buster | 04-06-2004 11:41 AM |
Oh....:o
If it hasn't been said...do the springs, and if you can make that swaybar a little stiffer do it. In theory that should help quite a bit.
If it hasn't been said...do the springs, and if you can make that swaybar a little stiffer do it. In theory that should help quite a bit.
| lo-buck | 04-06-2004 11:43 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by makofoto[/i]
[B] I'm not using Stock Strut Tops ... NRX tops:
[IMG]http://images5.fotki.com/v61/photos/4/43793/304279/NRXinstalledCU-vi.jpg[/IMG] [/B][/QUOTE]
if thats where you run the plates, you do have a ways to go on the adjustment. mac strut cars loose camber on compression. so you will have to go higher on your static camber setting to get what you want on compression. insert wheel rate calculations here.
my opinion on your spring rates is you can go stiffer (this is why i dont like tein.) kc runs 8k up front (448"lb) on street tiresand the car i borrowed was 10k (560"lb) on 225 victoracers and were g0od on camber and even tire wear and temps.
-spenc
[B] I'm not using Stock Strut Tops ... NRX tops:
[IMG]http://images5.fotki.com/v61/photos/4/43793/304279/NRXinstalledCU-vi.jpg[/IMG] [/B][/QUOTE]
if thats where you run the plates, you do have a ways to go on the adjustment. mac strut cars loose camber on compression. so you will have to go higher on your static camber setting to get what you want on compression. insert wheel rate calculations here.
my opinion on your spring rates is you can go stiffer (this is why i dont like tein.) kc runs 8k up front (448"lb) on street tiresand the car i borrowed was 10k (560"lb) on 225 victoracers and were g0od on camber and even tire wear and temps.
-spenc
| makofoto | 04-06-2004 11:50 AM |
NO ... that isn't my camber setting if I say that I'm running about - 3.25 camber ! I have them slammed all the way over when I'm running AutoX ... and yes ... I have to move the inside bolts over a hole in order to achieve max neg camber ... ;)
Yes, that is the Fuji Heavy Industry Aerospace Division Titanium Strut Tower bar ... that I bought used for a very good price .... :p
Yes, that is the Fuji Heavy Industry Aerospace Division Titanium Strut Tower bar ... that I bought used for a very good price .... :p
| lo-buck | 04-06-2004 12:46 PM |
just asking.....
| makofoto | 04-06-2004 12:53 PM |
Do you find you drive your stiffely sprung AutoX'er less and less on the street ... and drive your old pick-up truck instead! :D
| afpdl | 04-06-2004 12:54 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by makofoto[/i]
[B] to get more sedan like handling [/B][/QUOTE]
Its not to get more sedan like handling just more rotation. Which I have found to be easier in a wagon then sedan due to the 85lbs up and behind the rear axel.
[B] to get more sedan like handling [/B][/QUOTE]
Its not to get more sedan like handling just more rotation. Which I have found to be easier in a wagon then sedan due to the 85lbs up and behind the rear axel.
| paultg | 04-06-2004 12:55 PM |
Not a flame:
My idea:
Stop modifing the car.
Stop spending money on the car.
Stop changing the settings on the car.
Spend money on driver education.
Education should include understanding car prepartation and setup.
Drive your car *stock* or unchanged until you can't go [b]any faster[/b] at an event. Until you are at a point where you are out driving the car, and the car is holding you back.
Then upgrade.
I've watched folks like KC run very fast times with stock vehicles and good tires. It didn't make me want to go throw money at my car and mod it. It was pretty obvious to me what needed modification (not my car).
Paul G.
[b]Never takes his own advice[/b] :)
My idea:
Stop modifing the car.
Stop spending money on the car.
Stop changing the settings on the car.
Spend money on driver education.
Education should include understanding car prepartation and setup.
Drive your car *stock* or unchanged until you can't go [b]any faster[/b] at an event. Until you are at a point where you are out driving the car, and the car is holding you back.
Then upgrade.
I've watched folks like KC run very fast times with stock vehicles and good tires. It didn't make me want to go throw money at my car and mod it. It was pretty obvious to me what needed modification (not my car).
Paul G.
[b]Never takes his own advice[/b] :)
| sdecker | 04-06-2004 01:01 PM |
Hmmm...I think I understand quite a bit more than I did beforehand.
:unsubscribes:
[IMG]http://www.456thbombgroup.org/images/ripcord.jpg[/IMG]
Good luck, Mako. I want my 20 minutes back...
:unsubscribes:
[IMG]http://www.456thbombgroup.org/images/ripcord.jpg[/IMG]
Good luck, Mako. I want my 20 minutes back...
| makofoto | 04-06-2004 01:28 PM |
I got "sucked" into this because in my first AutoX ... last local Auto X of the year ... I came in 2nd, in SM, out of 24 cars, driven by some pretty decent drivers, like Chris Teague and Casey Quinn ... because it rained and my stock 215 T1's were obviously working better then the end of the year R compounds that most everyone else was using ... and of course AWD can compliment ones slight talent under conditions like that. Of course I would love to take an Evo class ... actually there was one being given that day ... but I was such a noob that I though you had to have an Evo or perhaps have one on order to take the class !!! Yes, I'm an idiot ... but I'm not totally talentless ...
Most of my mods were in place before I started AutoX'ing ... it's hard to go back ... although if I was serious ... I should do that. Maybe I just want to have fun ... but learn while I go ... unfortunately, because of a recent divorce ... I'm low on funds ... even to return things like my EcuTek back to stock. I'm just trying to do the minimum so I can return to my local AutoX's for some fun ... like buying some T/A KD's at Cosco ...
Sorry if I wasted your time ... :confused:
Most of my mods were in place before I started AutoX'ing ... it's hard to go back ... although if I was serious ... I should do that. Maybe I just want to have fun ... but learn while I go ... unfortunately, because of a recent divorce ... I'm low on funds ... even to return things like my EcuTek back to stock. I'm just trying to do the minimum so I can return to my local AutoX's for some fun ... like buying some T/A KD's at Cosco ...
Sorry if I wasted your time ... :confused:
| Subayai WRX | 04-06-2004 03:41 PM |
Mako, You hit the real head on the nail there with that last comment. Forget the competition thing. Especially if you've missed a couple of events for this year. Most of the SM crowd is serious about points, and you will have to almost ace every event if you want to finish 1st. CSCC doesn't hand out trophies for 2nd, at year end.
You comment was to "return to some fun". Well you can have fun driving ANYTHING! As you know I run my car in DS trim. I would love to through on camber plates, etc., but then the fun to moeny spent ratio gets out of whack for my life situation. The key to having fun at an auto-x is not to go out there with only winning on your mind. Realizing that even if the equipment is perfect (which is possible to a point), the driver is rarely perfect. I would have fun almost no matter what I drive out there. What does upset me is when what I drive everyday sucks. In my case the car was just getting too soft. The KYB's did what KYB's always do; quick response dampening was fine, but the slow response dampening was non-existent! That was the only reason that I then upgraded to Koni struts, the throttle lift, and brake noise diving of everyday driving was driving me crazy!!
Just a word of caution about some of the mod's you were talking about (like the Anti-lift kit), will actually place you into the modified classes, where almost the sky is the limit (think Carlos's franken-truck). I would say get a set of Azenis, and just have fun. I will say that springs is the number 2 area of improvement on these cars. After seeing the Larsson's sweep through STX last year, but their springs rates are not comfortable for the street. Everyone else in STX is running a coil over strut,, but they were running Koni SA's, with the coilover mod to the stock strut tube to run ground control springs up above 300lbs. Even though I one DS last year, my main goal was just to improve my performance driving, and winning came second, I say have fun first, and then if you find yourself winning, consistently, then dive in, if actual road racing doesn't have a stronger pull than auto-x.
You comment was to "return to some fun". Well you can have fun driving ANYTHING! As you know I run my car in DS trim. I would love to through on camber plates, etc., but then the fun to moeny spent ratio gets out of whack for my life situation. The key to having fun at an auto-x is not to go out there with only winning on your mind. Realizing that even if the equipment is perfect (which is possible to a point), the driver is rarely perfect. I would have fun almost no matter what I drive out there. What does upset me is when what I drive everyday sucks. In my case the car was just getting too soft. The KYB's did what KYB's always do; quick response dampening was fine, but the slow response dampening was non-existent! That was the only reason that I then upgraded to Koni struts, the throttle lift, and brake noise diving of everyday driving was driving me crazy!!
Just a word of caution about some of the mod's you were talking about (like the Anti-lift kit), will actually place you into the modified classes, where almost the sky is the limit (think Carlos's franken-truck). I would say get a set of Azenis, and just have fun. I will say that springs is the number 2 area of improvement on these cars. After seeing the Larsson's sweep through STX last year, but their springs rates are not comfortable for the street. Everyone else in STX is running a coil over strut,, but they were running Koni SA's, with the coilover mod to the stock strut tube to run ground control springs up above 300lbs. Even though I one DS last year, my main goal was just to improve my performance driving, and winning came second, I say have fun first, and then if you find yourself winning, consistently, then dive in, if actual road racing doesn't have a stronger pull than auto-x.
| makofoto | 04-06-2004 04:14 PM |
Thanks Jeff! I've always admired your relaxed but successful approch to AutoX'ing ... ;)
[IMG]http://images5.fotki.com/v69/photos/4/43793/836092/RelaxedJeffG-vi.jpg[/IMG]
Joke ! Joke !
[IMG]http://images5.fotki.com/v69/photos/4/43793/836092/RelaxedJeffG-vi.jpg[/IMG]
Joke ! Joke !
| afpdl | 04-06-2004 04:17 PM |
Thats a great pic, taking out a cone with your arm out the window:lol:
| solo-x | 04-06-2004 04:41 PM |
if money is tight, i wouldn't buy a spring that is only moderately stiffer then what i currently have just to buy the springs i really want/need later down the road.
though techinically you should try to have the shocks revalved to go much higher with the spring rate, you don't _have_ to. you could probably get away with some 450's or 500's all around for a reasonable length of time. i'd recommend going with something like a hyperco or eibach race spring though. 60mm is really close to 2.5" so if your current dampers use a 60mm id spring, a 2.5" id spring will work. keep in mind that this route will tend to make the car a little more bouncy on the street, but it _is_ do-able.
larger swaybars will help, though a 1" bar is pretty damn big already. does anyone even make anything larger?
there are adjustments to your driving you can make that will lessen the problem too. trail-braking or trailing throttle through a turn will tend to force the car up on the outside front. being closer to even throttle through the corner and not trailing the brake deep into it would reduce that tendency.
cheaper tires until you get everything sorted out. keep in mind though, a lesser gripping tire won't make the car roll as much, so it might hide the problem.
nate
though techinically you should try to have the shocks revalved to go much higher with the spring rate, you don't _have_ to. you could probably get away with some 450's or 500's all around for a reasonable length of time. i'd recommend going with something like a hyperco or eibach race spring though. 60mm is really close to 2.5" so if your current dampers use a 60mm id spring, a 2.5" id spring will work. keep in mind that this route will tend to make the car a little more bouncy on the street, but it _is_ do-able.
larger swaybars will help, though a 1" bar is pretty damn big already. does anyone even make anything larger?
there are adjustments to your driving you can make that will lessen the problem too. trail-braking or trailing throttle through a turn will tend to force the car up on the outside front. being closer to even throttle through the corner and not trailing the brake deep into it would reduce that tendency.
cheaper tires until you get everything sorted out. keep in mind though, a lesser gripping tire won't make the car roll as much, so it might hide the problem.
nate
| afpdl | 04-06-2004 04:44 PM |
Im still surprized at how you have more camber loss then a completely stock wrx does. It just doesnt add up.
| makofoto | 04-06-2004 04:58 PM |
Those 1" Hotchkis sway bars are hollow ... so they are equal to approx. a 22 to 23 mm solid bar ...
afpdl ... Suggestions ?!
afpdl ... Suggestions ?!
| Subayai WRX | 04-06-2004 05:10 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by makofoto [/i]
[B]Thanks Jeff! I've always admired your relaxed but successful approch to AutoX'ing ... ;)
[IMG]http://images5.fotki.com/v69/photos/4/43793/836092/RelaxedJeffG-vi.jpg[/IMG]
Joke ! Joke ! [/B][/QUOTE]
I've never seen that photo before, that is hilarious :p. Something must have been going on, cause I was relaxed, but it really does look like I was resting my arm out the window :p I do remember that and I just cannot seem to remember being that at ease. I was upset cause I was at the end of the life of my Azenis (they were bald), and the struts were shot.
Too funny, Thanks for that Mako!!
[B]Thanks Jeff! I've always admired your relaxed but successful approch to AutoX'ing ... ;)
[IMG]http://images5.fotki.com/v69/photos/4/43793/836092/RelaxedJeffG-vi.jpg[/IMG]
Joke ! Joke ! [/B][/QUOTE]
I've never seen that photo before, that is hilarious :p. Something must have been going on, cause I was relaxed, but it really does look like I was resting my arm out the window :p I do remember that and I just cannot seem to remember being that at ease. I was upset cause I was at the end of the life of my Azenis (they were bald), and the struts were shot.
Too funny, Thanks for that Mako!!
| afpdl | 04-06-2004 05:13 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by makofoto[/i]
[B]
afpdl ... Suggestions ?! [/B][/QUOTE]
I have none, you lowered the car(maybe a little too much) but the spring rates were upped a little bit, and you have larger then stock swaybars the car just shouldnt be losing more camber then stock.
It just makes me question what the hell the wagon coilovers do? They just seem to be extreamly soft on all aspects to keep a good ride but I dont see what performance benefit they could offer.
[B]
afpdl ... Suggestions ?! [/B][/QUOTE]
I have none, you lowered the car(maybe a little too much) but the spring rates were upped a little bit, and you have larger then stock swaybars the car just shouldnt be losing more camber then stock.
It just makes me question what the hell the wagon coilovers do? They just seem to be extreamly soft on all aspects to keep a good ride but I dont see what performance benefit they could offer.
| makofoto | 04-06-2004 05:22 PM |
I saw TOO LATE that on the Tein Circle of Performance ... the Wagon Coil Overs were all the way on the Comfort side of things ...
I did get them cheap, slightly used ... and believe it or not ... they were better then the Tein STech (S for Styling!) springs that I had before ... :lol:
This was all before AutoX'ing was even in my consciousness ...
I did get them cheap, slightly used ... and believe it or not ... they were better then the Tein STech (S for Styling!) springs that I had before ... :lol:
This was all before AutoX'ing was even in my consciousness ...
| afpdl | 04-06-2004 05:24 PM |
I can believe they were better then the s techs since the stechs were worlds below stock.
I knew the wagons were on the comfort side but I didnt know they were trying to make subarus into caddys.
I knew the wagons were on the comfort side but I didnt know they were trying to make subarus into caddys.
| kwh29 | 04-06-2004 05:31 PM |
Maybe your (stock?) A-arm bushings are dead.
Maybe you're overdriving. I'm not in your area so have never seen you drive.
Maybe, like others have said, your setup is unmatched and just doesn't work for whatever reason.
Maybe you corner balancing is way off and the car is piggish because of that. I've seen many many people make things much worse than stock with coilovers.
Maybe your shocks are valved for drifting or maybe they are broken. It's easy to kill a shock with street driving.
--Kevin H.
Maybe you're overdriving. I'm not in your area so have never seen you drive.
Maybe, like others have said, your setup is unmatched and just doesn't work for whatever reason.
Maybe you corner balancing is way off and the car is piggish because of that. I've seen many many people make things much worse than stock with coilovers.
Maybe your shocks are valved for drifting or maybe they are broken. It's easy to kill a shock with street driving.
--Kevin H.
| afpdl | 04-06-2004 05:35 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by kwh29[/i]
[B]
Maybe you're overdriving. I'm not in your area so have never seen you drive.
[/B][/QUOTE] I can overdrive my car all I want Im not going to loose that much camber. Over driving will make your tires ware more and you will be slower but its not going to make more body roll.
[B]
Maybe you're overdriving. I'm not in your area so have never seen you drive.
[/B][/QUOTE] I can overdrive my car all I want Im not going to loose that much camber. Over driving will make your tires ware more and you will be slower but its not going to make more body roll.
| Subayai WRX | 04-06-2004 05:49 PM |
The wagons are not on the comfy side. Having just researched this issue, it turns out the wagons run heavy springs in the rear. You will notice this from the Ravensblade spring info [url]http://www.northursalia.com/techdocs/spring/spring.html[/url]
Notice that the softest wagon rear is 132lbs/in which is the higest sedan rear rate. After watching the Larrson's WRX go through many saloms, and just being so amazed at how flat the car handled, to me after the struts, the springs are the most important thing, and that was also Toby (Larrson's) opinion as well. He was saying that until they approached 300lbs/in, the car was the usual handful, with understeering being the issue (Toby is a BMW man, and needs a car to oversteer).
To answer your initial questions, I would be inclined to balance out the springs more. Notice that the wagon have a more equal ratio of front to rear rates:
'02 Sedan MT = 1.39
'02 Sedan AT = 1.23
'02 Wagon MT = 1.23
'02 Wagon AT = 1.13
Now a lot of folks feel that Prodrive stricks the perfect balance between performance and comfort, so their ratio for the wagon is:
Prodrive(Eibach) Wagon = 1.06
You notice the tendency for a more 1:1 ratio throughout the STi line as well. So if 270 is the max rear, then a 300/270 mix would give you 1.11 mix, or 290/270 yields 1.07 (close the Prodrive ratio).
In terms of the cause of your apparent poor camber issue, I may be out on a limb here, but, I am going to venture to say that either 1) your shocks are responding much quicker than Mark Coleman's (his were stock), or 2) that you body is undergoing extreme flex, in conjunction to not having a front tower brace. Here is a quick check you can do (which I have). Put the fronts at full negative camber. Now jack up the entire front of the car (using the front jacking point below the engine), and re-measure the camber. In stock form, my WRX with -1.5 in front goes positive camber at full extension (I would say around 2-3 degrees positive). If you find the same, then I would say that the Mark's wagon was never really fully extending in the photo's we see, where as possibly yours are.
Probably a good inexpensive way to go is to switch your everyday tires to Azenis. That way you don't have to switch tires at events. Make sure the camber issue is not haunting you, and we can do that with shoe polish to mark for rollover. Then if the camber issue is showing the tires are performing with little outside rollover, then pop for the new Kumho's.
Notice that the softest wagon rear is 132lbs/in which is the higest sedan rear rate. After watching the Larrson's WRX go through many saloms, and just being so amazed at how flat the car handled, to me after the struts, the springs are the most important thing, and that was also Toby (Larrson's) opinion as well. He was saying that until they approached 300lbs/in, the car was the usual handful, with understeering being the issue (Toby is a BMW man, and needs a car to oversteer).
To answer your initial questions, I would be inclined to balance out the springs more. Notice that the wagon have a more equal ratio of front to rear rates:
'02 Sedan MT = 1.39
'02 Sedan AT = 1.23
'02 Wagon MT = 1.23
'02 Wagon AT = 1.13
Now a lot of folks feel that Prodrive stricks the perfect balance between performance and comfort, so their ratio for the wagon is:
Prodrive(Eibach) Wagon = 1.06
You notice the tendency for a more 1:1 ratio throughout the STi line as well. So if 270 is the max rear, then a 300/270 mix would give you 1.11 mix, or 290/270 yields 1.07 (close the Prodrive ratio).
In terms of the cause of your apparent poor camber issue, I may be out on a limb here, but, I am going to venture to say that either 1) your shocks are responding much quicker than Mark Coleman's (his were stock), or 2) that you body is undergoing extreme flex, in conjunction to not having a front tower brace. Here is a quick check you can do (which I have). Put the fronts at full negative camber. Now jack up the entire front of the car (using the front jacking point below the engine), and re-measure the camber. In stock form, my WRX with -1.5 in front goes positive camber at full extension (I would say around 2-3 degrees positive). If you find the same, then I would say that the Mark's wagon was never really fully extending in the photo's we see, where as possibly yours are.
Probably a good inexpensive way to go is to switch your everyday tires to Azenis. That way you don't have to switch tires at events. Make sure the camber issue is not haunting you, and we can do that with shoe polish to mark for rollover. Then if the camber issue is showing the tires are performing with little outside rollover, then pop for the new Kumho's.
| afpdl | 04-06-2004 05:52 PM |
Subayai when we said wagon we meant TEIN wagon coilovers. We were not reffering to subaru wagons.
| makofoto | 04-06-2004 05:54 PM |
I'm easy on the street ... so I don't "think" my Comfort Coil Overs are shot ... same for the bushings ...
The car only has 22k on it ... those coil overs maybe 15+ K on them.
I was corner balanced ... by the renown Darrin at West End Alignment ... when I went to the 12 lb battery the front left of my WRX went up less then a 1/16th of an inch ... which we none the less adjusted back.
The car only has 22k on it ... those coil overs maybe 15+ K on them.
I was corner balanced ... by the renown Darrin at West End Alignment ... when I went to the 12 lb battery the front left of my WRX went up less then a 1/16th of an inch ... which we none the less adjusted back.
| makofoto | 04-06-2004 06:00 PM |
I have both front and rear strut tower braces ... I think the car is stiff ... The rear easily comes off the ground when I lift up from the front side lift points ...
I will do the front camber test ... set to Max neg, lift up, and see what happens ... later today.
I will do the front camber test ... set to Max neg, lift up, and see what happens ... later today.
| afpdl | 04-06-2004 06:03 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by makofoto[/i]
[B] I have both front and rear strut tower braces ... I think the car is stiff ... The rear easily comes off the ground when I lift up from the front side lift points ...
[/B][/QUOTE]
Thats more from lack of suspension travel then from stiffness, the swaybars also make that easier to do.
But like I said I was only reffering to the coilovers stiffness not the chassy.
[B] I have both front and rear strut tower braces ... I think the car is stiff ... The rear easily comes off the ground when I lift up from the front side lift points ...
[/B][/QUOTE]
Thats more from lack of suspension travel then from stiffness, the swaybars also make that easier to do.
But like I said I was only reffering to the coilovers stiffness not the chassy.
| solo-x | 04-06-2004 06:19 PM |
i am not at all surprised to see an aftermarket performance suspension experience more roll then stock. ask kC about his DMS setup.
the springs currently on your car, are they progressive springs? you will get a lot more body roll with progressive springs that end up being stiffer then with stock springs that are softer. there are a lot of factors contributing to this (if you thought roll centre location with ride height was confusing, you don't want to know what happens to your roll centre with progressive springs) but suffice it to say, progressive springs are bad.
btw, the dms springs kC had were progressive. his car rolled more on the dms' then it did on stock suspension by a huge margin.
nate
the springs currently on your car, are they progressive springs? you will get a lot more body roll with progressive springs that end up being stiffer then with stock springs that are softer. there are a lot of factors contributing to this (if you thought roll centre location with ride height was confusing, you don't want to know what happens to your roll centre with progressive springs) but suffice it to say, progressive springs are bad.
btw, the dms springs kC had were progressive. his car rolled more on the dms' then it did on stock suspension by a huge margin.
nate
| dadswrx | 04-06-2004 10:04 PM |
It's a [B]Lean[/B], mean, fightin' machine... (emphasis added)
[IMG]http://home.comcast.net/~m.cole3/wrx3.JPG[/IMG]
Now the other side:
[IMG]http://home.comcast.net/~m.cole3/wrx1.JPG[/IMG]
And under braking:
[IMG]http://home.comcast.net/~m.cole3/wrx2.JPG[/IMG]
Stock w/Toyo RA-1's and ~1.0 degree negative camber front and rear.
Posted purely for entertainment value and to see if I actually could figure out how to post pics.
Mike
02 WRX Wagon
[IMG]http://home.comcast.net/~m.cole3/wrx3.JPG[/IMG]
Now the other side:
[IMG]http://home.comcast.net/~m.cole3/wrx1.JPG[/IMG]
And under braking:
[IMG]http://home.comcast.net/~m.cole3/wrx2.JPG[/IMG]
Stock w/Toyo RA-1's and ~1.0 degree negative camber front and rear.
Posted purely for entertainment value and to see if I actually could figure out how to post pics.
Mike
02 WRX Wagon
| KC | 04-07-2004 07:31 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by solo-x[/i]
[B] i am not at all surprised to see an aftermarket performance suspension experience more roll then stock. ask kC about his DMS setup.[/B][/QUOTE]
Pictures are worth 1000 words....
[IMG]http://www.rallydecals.com/kccar/photogallery/kc_wrx5.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.rallydecals.com/kccar/photogallery/kc_wrx6.jpg[/IMG]
Yes, folks, DMS 40s on full stiff. $1600 paperweights right now. Not woth spending the hundred or so bucks for shipping to have them 'fixed'. They've offered to fix them, but no way in hell am I spending more money on something that I'll never be able to re-sell, much less use and even less recommend them to be used in the 1st place.
[B] i am not at all surprised to see an aftermarket performance suspension experience more roll then stock. ask kC about his DMS setup.[/B][/QUOTE]
Pictures are worth 1000 words....
[IMG]http://www.rallydecals.com/kccar/photogallery/kc_wrx5.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.rallydecals.com/kccar/photogallery/kc_wrx6.jpg[/IMG]
Yes, folks, DMS 40s on full stiff. $1600 paperweights right now. Not woth spending the hundred or so bucks for shipping to have them 'fixed'. They've offered to fix them, but no way in hell am I spending more money on something that I'll never be able to re-sell, much less use and even less recommend them to be used in the 1st place.
| trhoppe | 04-08-2004 01:10 AM |
I would sell your Tein Wagons on ebay or here on the classifieds.
Pick up a set of OTS Konis with GCs and 400 rates all around for $950 total.
Then, once you have a car that doesn't suck :p drive it and don't worry about modifying it.
I believe in the theory of at least getting yourself in the ballpark with the car before working on the driver. There are some incredible drivers with hunks of crap in our local regions. Yea, they do ok, but imagine what those guys would do with a real car.
I myself try to max out the car before I worry about the driver. It really screws with my mind that "maybe it was the car holding me back and not me". Although that has NEVER been the case, it MAKES me faster knowing that only I can be screwing up cause the car is 100% perfect. In the end, anything that makes you a faster driver is good. It might get expensive, but I got lucky and have a few sponsors to help out with costs.
Last but not least. REALLY evaluate your rear camber settings as well. I remember in the other thread you said you have -2 degrees :eek: Most of the national guys are running higher rear springs and -1.0 or -1.2 camber before they get rotation. I have -1.5 rear camber and will be taking it down to -1.3 before the next autox as the car was a bit pushy last time out.
-Tom
Pick up a set of OTS Konis with GCs and 400 rates all around for $950 total.
Then, once you have a car that doesn't suck :p drive it and don't worry about modifying it.
I believe in the theory of at least getting yourself in the ballpark with the car before working on the driver. There are some incredible drivers with hunks of crap in our local regions. Yea, they do ok, but imagine what those guys would do with a real car.
I myself try to max out the car before I worry about the driver. It really screws with my mind that "maybe it was the car holding me back and not me". Although that has NEVER been the case, it MAKES me faster knowing that only I can be screwing up cause the car is 100% perfect. In the end, anything that makes you a faster driver is good. It might get expensive, but I got lucky and have a few sponsors to help out with costs.
Last but not least. REALLY evaluate your rear camber settings as well. I remember in the other thread you said you have -2 degrees :eek: Most of the national guys are running higher rear springs and -1.0 or -1.2 camber before they get rotation. I have -1.5 rear camber and will be taking it down to -1.3 before the next autox as the car was a bit pushy last time out.
-Tom
| Patrick Olsen | 04-08-2004 04:32 AM |
I'm with whoever it was that recommended upgrading just the rear springs. Keep your existing 280# front springs and go to a 250# or 270# (whatever is available) rear spring. I'm running 315f/280r on my Legacy and the car's balance is still a bit on the understeer side of neutral (obviously there are other factors that determine overall balance, but spring rates is a big player).
Changing the rear springs out and Tom's suggestion to take out some rear camber should help the car rotate and stop chewing up the tires like that.
I'm still baffled at how the car can chew up tires so bad... :confused:
Pat Olsen
'97 Legacy 2.5GT sedan
Changing the rear springs out and Tom's suggestion to take out some rear camber should help the car rotate and stop chewing up the tires like that.
I'm still baffled at how the car can chew up tires so bad... :confused:
Pat Olsen
'97 Legacy 2.5GT sedan
| makofoto | 04-08-2004 01:25 PM |
Seems like I might not have had as much front neg. camber as I was suppose to. The front camber plates were all used up ... but the front camber bolts might not have been max'ed out. Could be that my last alignment was not done correct, ie. set to -2.5 ... leaving me room to add more negative camber with the plates. Need to go to an alignment shop to have that checked out. Using my very accurate surveying laser, I'm only getting a reading of - 2.7 when I thought I should be getting at least -3.25 ....
Pat ... I was thinking of trying that ... I have 280/168 now ... I can go up 100 lbs before having to revalve my cheapy struts (can one even revalve Tein Wagon Coil Overs ?!). So I could just change the rear springs ... so that I end up with 280/270 ... and see what that feels like ... again, hopefully this would be a temporary solution until I can get "real" coil overs.
But the front end is so soft ... even with my big Hotchkis sway bar ... that my Victoracers were rubbing the inside of the fender well ... actually broke one of the mounting points for the fender well liner. :(
Pat ... I was thinking of trying that ... I have 280/168 now ... I can go up 100 lbs before having to revalve my cheapy struts (can one even revalve Tein Wagon Coil Overs ?!). So I could just change the rear springs ... so that I end up with 280/270 ... and see what that feels like ... again, hopefully this would be a temporary solution until I can get "real" coil overs.
But the front end is so soft ... even with my big Hotchkis sway bar ... that my Victoracers were rubbing the inside of the fender well ... actually broke one of the mounting points for the fender well liner. :(
| afpdl | 04-08-2004 01:29 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by makofoto[/i]
[B]actually broke one of the mounting points for the fender well liner. :( [/B][/QUOTE]
Who hasnt:confused:
[B]actually broke one of the mounting points for the fender well liner. :( [/B][/QUOTE]
Who hasnt:confused:
| drees | 04-15-2004 11:08 PM |
Hey Mako, In case you didn't see this already but look at Gary Sheehans comments on the amount of camber you need on a STI:
[URL=http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=539159]Camber[/URL]
He's saying that you want 7-8 degrees of camber on a stock STi in the front, and that running with 750lb springs front he still uses around 5 degrees.
Granted that is on race tires, but I think that should help give you and idea of how much camber you should be shooting for when racing: As much as you can get!
[URL=http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=539159]Camber[/URL]
He's saying that you want 7-8 degrees of camber on a stock STi in the front, and that running with 750lb springs front he still uses around 5 degrees.
Granted that is on race tires, but I think that should help give you and idea of how much camber you should be shooting for when racing: As much as you can get!
| TV3WRX | 04-16-2004 10:56 AM |
For what it's worth, the Aussie PROTECNICA team, which runs an Sti in the GTP series (and at Bathurst 24), runs on stock sway bars (per series rules), but uses 700 to 1000 lbs springs all around (!) and -5 to -7 front camber with almost 0 rear camber and sometimes rear toe out. In addition, they raise the rear ride height vs. front to make it more tail-happy on certain tracks, while keeping as low in the front as they can. Struts are custom Bilsteins, valved specifically for that car. They way he explained it to me: The big negative camber is to correct understeer, the high spring rates are to prevent roll and dive (which affects camber retention), and rear ride height is to achieve the desired balance for high-speed or low-speed tracks, the lower the speed the higher they go in the rear, I think.
He did say that if they could use custom swaybars in that series they would go real big, and reduce the spring rates by a couple hundred pounds. The inside front suspension really wants to "lift and extend" on this chassis for some reason, rather than just compressing the outside front. That is part of the roll/camber loss issue.
You can see the pics on their site, showing how much front camber there is. [URL=http://www.protecnica.com.au/]http://www.protecnica.com.au/[/URL] They lead the series, BTW. Next race this weekend.
He did say that if they could use custom swaybars in that series they would go real big, and reduce the spring rates by a couple hundred pounds. The inside front suspension really wants to "lift and extend" on this chassis for some reason, rather than just compressing the outside front. That is part of the roll/camber loss issue.
You can see the pics on their site, showing how much front camber there is. [URL=http://www.protecnica.com.au/]http://www.protecnica.com.au/[/URL] They lead the series, BTW. Next race this weekend.
| buster | 04-16-2004 11:16 AM |
[IMG]http://www.pbase.com/image/28007799/large.jpg[/IMG]
2nd gear slalom, accelarating at around 4-4500rpm
04 USDM STI takeoffs, Kuhmo 712's, stock swaybars. -1.4fr, and -1.2rr. That is about the most roll I have seen, granted stickier tires will give a little more but some swaybars would cure some of that as well.
2nd gear slalom, accelarating at around 4-4500rpm
04 USDM STI takeoffs, Kuhmo 712's, stock swaybars. -1.4fr, and -1.2rr. That is about the most roll I have seen, granted stickier tires will give a little more but some swaybars would cure some of that as well.
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