| Jon Bogert | 03-17-2002 02:01 PM |
Rally Spectating Poll
Complaints are coming in from spectators at Cherokee Trails, where fans were confined to designated areas, often 100 feet through the woods from the course. Is this the future of Rally in the U.S.? How do you feel?
| johnfelstead | 03-17-2002 03:50 PM |
the option i want isnt there.
big crowds, good promotion, good marshalling and able to go where you like. works fine everywhere else in the world.
big crowds, good promotion, good marshalling and able to go where you like. works fine everywhere else in the world.
| Thug | 03-17-2002 03:53 PM |
Im with John on that I think. I prefer the small crows with no promotion, but I know we need the promotion to grow the sport here.
| OnTheGas | 03-17-2002 04:39 PM |
Spectators Can Be More Creative
Rally spectators should be incouraged to be "black sheep" or difficult to herd into official spectators corrals, so to speak, if the local organizer gets too nazi-like w/crowd control... Because these events are out in the woods and brush, a creative, adventerous, off trail walk will yield prime, less-crowded viewing spots... I don't think anyone will go to jail for that...
just my 2 nonsense... although I wasn't at cherokee trails, so my experiences may be very different...
just my 2 nonsense... although I wasn't at cherokee trails, so my experiences may be very different...
| Greg Sharpe | 03-17-2002 05:33 PM |
Paying to stand on someone elses dirt is not ideal. It wasn't when NASCAR tried it at Daytona Beach, and it still won't be in the dirt back country of our nation.
After attending a bunch of SoCal rallies, they do it as best I've seen and know. When a group of spectators walks up a road, the timing crews and/or volunteers simply say, "hot course, don't get dead." It all works out, or has so far. The moment someone gets run over, US rallying will either be set back a decade or be forced to pulverise (sp?) the spectators with rules, waivers, and chain link fencing. IMHO.
After attending a bunch of SoCal rallies, they do it as best I've seen and know. When a group of spectators walks up a road, the timing crews and/or volunteers simply say, "hot course, don't get dead." It all works out, or has so far. The moment someone gets run over, US rallying will either be set back a decade or be forced to pulverise (sp?) the spectators with rules, waivers, and chain link fencing. IMHO.
| Jon Bogert | 03-17-2002 05:37 PM |
Yeah, John, that would be nice, wouldn't it? I don't believe that model could ever work in America, though. The minute they take your money, the organizers and/or forest service is [I]responsible[/I] for your safety--the penalty for an incident being massive lawsuits and the end of rally in the U.S. Everyone I've spoken with on the organizer side believes this 100%.
In the old days, rallies were "non-spectator" events for insurance purposes. There were no spectator areas and it worked pretty well, because only the die hards who knew what was up attended.
But what do you do when 5000 rally-rookies show up after watching the big boys slide around on Speedvision? I honestly don't know, and I don't think anyone else does either. :(
In the old days, rallies were "non-spectator" events for insurance purposes. There were no spectator areas and it worked pretty well, because only the die hards who knew what was up attended.
But what do you do when 5000 rally-rookies show up after watching the big boys slide around on Speedvision? I honestly don't know, and I don't think anyone else does either. :(
| freq | 03-17-2002 05:40 PM |
I'm all for personal responsibility, I say spectate anywhere safe.
at some point though a new spectator will wander aimlessly on the stage looking for a better view, get run down in the process, and sue the organizers because there were not at least 5 warning signs stating that the trackout of a particular turn is not the safest place to spectate, and could be a threat to your wellbeing.
as rallying becomes more popular in the litigous US of A, these will be growing concerns, and your fun will suffer as a result. There is a sizable cross section of our culture that is accustomed to motorsports that are safely confined to the other side of concrete barricades and chainlink fences.
at some point though a new spectator will wander aimlessly on the stage looking for a better view, get run down in the process, and sue the organizers because there were not at least 5 warning signs stating that the trackout of a particular turn is not the safest place to spectate, and could be a threat to your wellbeing.
as rallying becomes more popular in the litigous US of A, these will be growing concerns, and your fun will suffer as a result. There is a sizable cross section of our culture that is accustomed to motorsports that are safely confined to the other side of concrete barricades and chainlink fences.
| dwx | 03-17-2002 05:53 PM |
I don't think Cherokee Trails is the future of US Rally as far as spectating. From what little I've heard/read basically spectating was at the whim of the Forest Service people. I'm not going to blame the organizers of the event 100%, but it all comes down to preperation and organization so I don't know how they can't take at least some of the blame... It seems some people could care less about having spectators at the events, and don't think that's what will make the sport grow. I tend to disagree.
| johnfelstead | 03-17-2002 06:01 PM |
Why charge a fee to enter the stage. You could cover any costs by charging for parking and that way only having to cover the costs of insurance claims should someone brek their leg in the carpark, outside that you are on your own as far as legitimate responsibilities.
All this needs is for the local police to setup temporary no parking zones so you are forced to park in the oficial car parks. You can then hand out safety leaflets to people as they enter.
This is how the UK handles the more popular events, the only rally in the UK that has entry tickets per se is the NetworkQ WRC event, even on that you are attending at your own risk, buying a ticket says you agree to that.
You have a masive job ahead of you to educate the newcomer to the sport, it's an oportunity though, not a burden. The bigest problem with the American mentality though is you dont accept the concept of personal responsibility, it's always someone elses fault. Will that ever change in the USA, not a chance.
In the UK when you run a rally you have to have a public liability insurance policy in place, this is administered by the Motor Sports Association and you cant run an event without a permit from them and paying this insurance. You should have a similar system run by the SCCA i would think, if you havent, you should!
We have a similar problem now in the UK with the explosion of WRC coverage, people who havent ever been to a rally are swarming into the forests. After the acident with Sainz last year we expect to see police used for the first time on stages in the UK. They are just a token jesture though. The big problem on the Network Q is the concentration of stages in one small area forcing too many people into one area. This is one reason why i am spending time on foreign events this year on the Monte Carlo and Catalunya this coming weekend. It's not quite the same as it was and the foreign events i have found have been more value and less hasle for spectating. I will probably go watch Rally Finland too this year. Britain is getting too packed into one place.
All this needs is for the local police to setup temporary no parking zones so you are forced to park in the oficial car parks. You can then hand out safety leaflets to people as they enter.
This is how the UK handles the more popular events, the only rally in the UK that has entry tickets per se is the NetworkQ WRC event, even on that you are attending at your own risk, buying a ticket says you agree to that.
You have a masive job ahead of you to educate the newcomer to the sport, it's an oportunity though, not a burden. The bigest problem with the American mentality though is you dont accept the concept of personal responsibility, it's always someone elses fault. Will that ever change in the USA, not a chance.
In the UK when you run a rally you have to have a public liability insurance policy in place, this is administered by the Motor Sports Association and you cant run an event without a permit from them and paying this insurance. You should have a similar system run by the SCCA i would think, if you havent, you should!
We have a similar problem now in the UK with the explosion of WRC coverage, people who havent ever been to a rally are swarming into the forests. After the acident with Sainz last year we expect to see police used for the first time on stages in the UK. They are just a token jesture though. The big problem on the Network Q is the concentration of stages in one small area forcing too many people into one area. This is one reason why i am spending time on foreign events this year on the Monte Carlo and Catalunya this coming weekend. It's not quite the same as it was and the foreign events i have found have been more value and less hasle for spectating. I will probably go watch Rally Finland too this year. Britain is getting too packed into one place.
| LordBass | 03-17-2002 06:17 PM |
I've experienced a bit of both control and less control at the Maine Forest Rally the past two years. In 2000 we walked down the track, including when it was hot, and picked where we wanted to spectate. In the case of Friday's stages, this was right next to the track, cars passing feet in front of us.
Spectating was more organized in 2001. Less walking, tho thru somewhat marked trails in the woods. There were more people, but it was safer.
I think it depends on the event. I'd rather not see pay-to-spectate, but pay a small fee to park would help cover some of the event costs..
No matter what we want, rallying in the US will get more expensive to both participate in and attend as more manufacturers get involved the sport gains more interest. So far I don't see this as a bad thing.
So where's the Speed Channel coverage?? :)
lb
[url]www.trancelab.com[/url]
Spectating was more organized in 2001. Less walking, tho thru somewhat marked trails in the woods. There were more people, but it was safer.
I think it depends on the event. I'd rather not see pay-to-spectate, but pay a small fee to park would help cover some of the event costs..
No matter what we want, rallying in the US will get more expensive to both participate in and attend as more manufacturers get involved the sport gains more interest. So far I don't see this as a bad thing.
So where's the Speed Channel coverage?? :)
lb
[url]www.trancelab.com[/url]
| Ken C | 03-17-2002 06:28 PM |
thoughts
Jon,
A few thoughts on handling the issue
It seems from the standpoint of crowd control that we could make a few improvements. I've been thinking over the last two years that it would be good to have one person at each major spectator point who could relate well with the fans over a bullhorn or PA system... meaning it could educate them a bit especially.
At STPR for instance: announcing could be improved the following ways - (this must be pre-planned and well thought through)
1.) Have the announcer at the green in Wellsboro educate people a bit on rally spectating, and on how we can keep our venues intact (drive conservatively, respect people living locally, follow marshalls instructions, etc)
2.) At each spectator point, have a professional person well educated in rally announce at the stage over a PA system - helps with crowd control, but also again reiterates things like please dont litter, etc.
I have often seen a marshall trying to communicate, but being really harsh on folks which almost creates an adversarial reaction from the crowd. Perhaps they are just overtaxed. This is a great sport, and when I have worked stages I try and walk up and down the road before the stage is hot, asking people if they have questions, being courteous, and just educating them.
If the marshall is NOT pre-planned and briefed to do public relations, etc, they should be told to keep control but be friendly and non-adversarial.
I think by strengthening the marshalling a bit - not more marshals only, but one GOOD person in charge of each major area... it will help.
ALSO - I would continue the practice of only directing people to the spectator areas. Without a stage map, much of the rest of the course is protected. In this way, you have the best of both worlds, and last year at STPR it seemed to work - all the new people, if they found a spectator point at all, typically found the published ones. The old timers were free to respectfully sneak off to their own unpublished spots.
Finally - we could work with local police a bit - where an access road to a major spectator area goes through a sleepy little residential spot (like at Asaph) we could ask the troopers to set up a speed trap to keep the spectators speeds down - and keep the locals happy.
Regards
Ken Cole
Rally Performance
A few thoughts on handling the issue
It seems from the standpoint of crowd control that we could make a few improvements. I've been thinking over the last two years that it would be good to have one person at each major spectator point who could relate well with the fans over a bullhorn or PA system... meaning it could educate them a bit especially.
At STPR for instance: announcing could be improved the following ways - (this must be pre-planned and well thought through)
1.) Have the announcer at the green in Wellsboro educate people a bit on rally spectating, and on how we can keep our venues intact (drive conservatively, respect people living locally, follow marshalls instructions, etc)
2.) At each spectator point, have a professional person well educated in rally announce at the stage over a PA system - helps with crowd control, but also again reiterates things like please dont litter, etc.
I have often seen a marshall trying to communicate, but being really harsh on folks which almost creates an adversarial reaction from the crowd. Perhaps they are just overtaxed. This is a great sport, and when I have worked stages I try and walk up and down the road before the stage is hot, asking people if they have questions, being courteous, and just educating them.
If the marshall is NOT pre-planned and briefed to do public relations, etc, they should be told to keep control but be friendly and non-adversarial.
I think by strengthening the marshalling a bit - not more marshals only, but one GOOD person in charge of each major area... it will help.
ALSO - I would continue the practice of only directing people to the spectator areas. Without a stage map, much of the rest of the course is protected. In this way, you have the best of both worlds, and last year at STPR it seemed to work - all the new people, if they found a spectator point at all, typically found the published ones. The old timers were free to respectfully sneak off to their own unpublished spots.
Finally - we could work with local police a bit - where an access road to a major spectator area goes through a sleepy little residential spot (like at Asaph) we could ask the troopers to set up a speed trap to keep the spectators speeds down - and keep the locals happy.
Regards
Ken Cole
Rally Performance
| Sanctum | 03-17-2002 09:45 PM |
I'll share the letter that I sent to Kurt Spitzner ( SCCA Director of Performance Rally ). It maybe slightly OT for this thread, but it's my newbie perspective on the Cherokee Trails rally. I'm considering venturing to the Susquehannock Trail ProRally with hopes that some of the issues will be resolved by then.
[I]---Begin Letter---
I attended my first rally race ever this weekend (Cherokee Trails) and few things struck me as strange. Correct me if these are usual rally spectating issues or if they are actual problems.
- The schedule was extremely tight. I think the fact that the last stage was more or less canceled proves the time wasn't managed well.
- The forest service / event organizers were not on the same page until the actual day of the rally. This caused confusion for spectators and frustration for the rally marshals. To the point, me as well as numerous other spectators were shuffled from location to location as the marshals were informed by the forest service where we could and could not spectate.
- It was not free to spectate for the event (as noted on the SCCA Rally site). There was a $20 forest pass fee that everyone had to pay to spectate. I understand that there are costs associated with organizing these events, but the fact that the fee's were for "forest passes" and the event was held in a National Public forest is a bit confusing. Oddly enough I drove some of the stages the day before the rally without having to pay a dime to enter the forest.
These are just a couple of oddities that I noticed along the way. There were some very positive things that I noticed as well, but the items listed above seemed to crop up with all of the spectators I bumped into ( both newbies and veterans ). I look forward to attending more Pro and Club rally events, and hope that you will consider some of the things I've listed when planning future events.
Regards,
Brian Fitzhugh
[/I]
[I]---Begin Letter---
I attended my first rally race ever this weekend (Cherokee Trails) and few things struck me as strange. Correct me if these are usual rally spectating issues or if they are actual problems.
- The schedule was extremely tight. I think the fact that the last stage was more or less canceled proves the time wasn't managed well.
- The forest service / event organizers were not on the same page until the actual day of the rally. This caused confusion for spectators and frustration for the rally marshals. To the point, me as well as numerous other spectators were shuffled from location to location as the marshals were informed by the forest service where we could and could not spectate.
- It was not free to spectate for the event (as noted on the SCCA Rally site). There was a $20 forest pass fee that everyone had to pay to spectate. I understand that there are costs associated with organizing these events, but the fact that the fee's were for "forest passes" and the event was held in a National Public forest is a bit confusing. Oddly enough I drove some of the stages the day before the rally without having to pay a dime to enter the forest.
These are just a couple of oddities that I noticed along the way. There were some very positive things that I noticed as well, but the items listed above seemed to crop up with all of the spectators I bumped into ( both newbies and veterans ). I look forward to attending more Pro and Club rally events, and hope that you will consider some of the things I've listed when planning future events.
Regards,
Brian Fitzhugh
[/I]
| grimlock | 03-17-2002 11:10 PM |
The real problem at Cherokee is that the stages don't have very many connecting roads, so letting people drive in to an intersection to watch isn't really a viable option.
Bussing spectators in down the stage roads wouldn't really work, since a bus couldn't safely navigate some of the corners and the spectators would have to be there way early to get the stage clear.
About the Forest Pass, I heard that neither the organizers nor the SCCA got a dime of that. It was apparently all the Forest Service.
On the positive side, the winners of the event for the past two years have both said that the stage roads are absolutely some of the best gravel stages in the world, and I agree. I've driven them.
Ross N.
Bussing spectators in down the stage roads wouldn't really work, since a bus couldn't safely navigate some of the corners and the spectators would have to be there way early to get the stage clear.
About the Forest Pass, I heard that neither the organizers nor the SCCA got a dime of that. It was apparently all the Forest Service.
On the positive side, the winners of the event for the past two years have both said that the stage roads are absolutely some of the best gravel stages in the world, and I agree. I've driven them.
Ross N.
| go go go | 03-18-2002 07:01 AM |
here's the Catalunya way of handling
I agree with John.
I went to see 2000 Acropolis.
Huge amount of spectators. Most of them locals.
no fee, no designated areas. no rules.
It worked just fine and it was a great experience.
One thing you have to expect watching rally is a lot of WALKING. No way around.
[URL=http://www.rallyecatalunya.com/2002/ing/index_espec.html]rally Catalunya official site[/URL]
[IMG]http://www.rallyecatalunya.com/2002/ing/imagenes/leyenda.gif[/IMG]
I went to see 2000 Acropolis.
Huge amount of spectators. Most of them locals.
no fee, no designated areas. no rules.
It worked just fine and it was a great experience.
One thing you have to expect watching rally is a lot of WALKING. No way around.
[URL=http://www.rallyecatalunya.com/2002/ing/index_espec.html]rally Catalunya official site[/URL]
[IMG]http://www.rallyecatalunya.com/2002/ing/imagenes/leyenda.gif[/IMG]
| Thug | 03-18-2002 07:35 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by grimlock [/i]
[B]The real problem at Cherokee is that the stages don't have very many connecting roads, so letting people drive in to an intersection to watch isn't really a viable option.
Bussing spectators in down the stage roads wouldn't really work, since a bus couldn't safely navigate some of the corners and the spectators would have to be there way early to get the stage clear.
About the Forest Pass, I heard that neither the organizers nor the SCCA got a dime of that. It was apparently all the Forest Service.
On the positive side, the winners of the event for the past two years have both said that the stage roads are absolutely some of the best gravel stages in the world, and I agree. I've driven them.
Ross N. [/B][/QUOTE]
They bussed people into a couple of the longer stages at Maine Forest Rally the past couple years. And that seemed to work just fine.
[B]The real problem at Cherokee is that the stages don't have very many connecting roads, so letting people drive in to an intersection to watch isn't really a viable option.
Bussing spectators in down the stage roads wouldn't really work, since a bus couldn't safely navigate some of the corners and the spectators would have to be there way early to get the stage clear.
About the Forest Pass, I heard that neither the organizers nor the SCCA got a dime of that. It was apparently all the Forest Service.
On the positive side, the winners of the event for the past two years have both said that the stage roads are absolutely some of the best gravel stages in the world, and I agree. I've driven them.
Ross N. [/B][/QUOTE]
They bussed people into a couple of the longer stages at Maine Forest Rally the past couple years. And that seemed to work just fine.
| Opie | 03-18-2002 12:53 PM |
I didn't get to spectate much at Cherokee Trails until our car was out but here's my .02 The Forest Officials need to chill, there were plenty of very safe areas where spectators could have been where they were not "allowed". When we got the the "spectator area" for stage 7 there were several areas "blocked" by tape where they did not want spectators, on a hill opposite from the stage road they were no taped off areas and people had started itting on the hill to watch the stage, we decided to start up the hill (where everyone else was) and pick a spot. We decided to walk behind the people that were already sitting as to not disturb them and promptly got yelled at and threatened with a $100 fine for going past the designated "spectator area". I asked where the spectator area was and was told it was an imaginary line in the woods. Ummm, OK....an imaginary line? How the hell were we supposed to know that? Why wasn't it marked with tape so it was obvoius? There were only maybe 150 people at that spectator area and all of us could have spread out on that hill and still been safe without harming the enviroment or anything else. What a crock. Next year I'm dressing in camo and sitting wherever the hell I want :) Maybe even up in a tree stand!
| RS22b | 03-18-2002 12:54 PM |
i believe that last year's event at STPR was a great one. I worked stages 6 and 9. During stage 6 i had about 300 spectators to manage along with only one other person. It was somewhat difficult but we had told everyone before the rally where they could and could not stand some listened and some didnt.
IF the some that didnt listen got hurt for some reason it wouldnt mostly have been my fault. It would be theres. I did tell them to stand over there in a possiblity that they might get hit with flying rocks and mud. But they didnt listen and stood there anyway.
it was my first time working a rally and my first time spectating a rally. ALl in all it was a great time and everything worked out and no one had to pay a dime to get there.
Everything went well and alot of people were pleased b/c they only agave directions to spectator areas. ANd when ppl got ther if they didnt want to stay there they just walked down the road to another spot.
I alertedall that were wlaking near the beginning of the stage.
Cant wait to work this year. Expaect one whole stage to be controlled by the Tri-State area.
Billyqua
Rally Driven................
IF the some that didnt listen got hurt for some reason it wouldnt mostly have been my fault. It would be theres. I did tell them to stand over there in a possiblity that they might get hit with flying rocks and mud. But they didnt listen and stood there anyway.
it was my first time working a rally and my first time spectating a rally. ALl in all it was a great time and everything worked out and no one had to pay a dime to get there.
Everything went well and alot of people were pleased b/c they only agave directions to spectator areas. ANd when ppl got ther if they didnt want to stay there they just walked down the road to another spot.
I alertedall that were wlaking near the beginning of the stage.
Cant wait to work this year. Expaect one whole stage to be controlled by the Tri-State area.
Billyqua
Rally Driven................
| Pinochle | 03-18-2002 01:00 PM |
I agree w/ johnfelstead. Edit the poll!
P.
P.
| Jon Bogert | 03-18-2002 01:42 PM |
If I wanted the poll to include unrealistic alternatives, I'd include spectating from private helicopters. I appreciate that lots of people are hoping that a U.S. organizer will be able to put in place infrastructure to handle not just a few thousand fans, but tens or hundreds of thousands of fans like some European events get. I hope so too but, as I said, I can't see it happening with the current restraints on budget, liability and land use.
Let me put it this way: if 50,000 fans show up at STPR this year, it won't run a single stage. :(
Let me put it this way: if 50,000 fans show up at STPR this year, it won't run a single stage. :(
| Sanctum | 03-18-2002 02:07 PM |
[QUOTE]The Forest Officials need to chill....[/QUOTE]
I visited that area the morning of the rally. The marshals said that the Forest Service had told them that there were endangered dormant <sp> plants under the leaves. If spectators ventured up the hill they risked killing the "dormant plants". So instead of sitting safely on the hill we were all coralled down to the edge of the road and were allowed to watch about 60 yards worth of the trail.
All of that confusion could have been eliminated had the event organizers and the forest service agreed on an safe region for spectators to watch from ahead of time. Instead marshals got frustrated shuffling people in and out of safe and unsafe areas to avoid endangering these plants.
- Brian
I visited that area the morning of the rally. The marshals said that the Forest Service had told them that there were endangered dormant <sp> plants under the leaves. If spectators ventured up the hill they risked killing the "dormant plants". So instead of sitting safely on the hill we were all coralled down to the edge of the road and were allowed to watch about 60 yards worth of the trail.
All of that confusion could have been eliminated had the event organizers and the forest service agreed on an safe region for spectators to watch from ahead of time. Instead marshals got frustrated shuffling people in and out of safe and unsafe areas to avoid endangering these plants.
- Brian
| Jon Bogert | 03-18-2002 02:51 PM |
[QUOTE]there were endangered dormant <sp> plants under the leaves[/QUOTE]
That was clearly a last minute fabrication by an enemy of rally. Seems like a good reason NEVER to run an event on land subject to influence from treehuggers. Perhaps the ultimate solution is only to run on township or private roads. The forest service doesn't care that the rally brought over a million bucks in tourism to TN, but a town council will let you sleep with their wives for a few tourism dollars.
That was clearly a last minute fabrication by an enemy of rally. Seems like a good reason NEVER to run an event on land subject to influence from treehuggers. Perhaps the ultimate solution is only to run on township or private roads. The forest service doesn't care that the rally brought over a million bucks in tourism to TN, but a town council will let you sleep with their wives for a few tourism dollars.
| 8Complex | 03-18-2002 03:31 PM |
Charge for parking. Have all spectators that are planning on venturing off on their own sign waivers that say that if they are hit, they won't sue (after all, they didn't HAVE to be there, they just were too stupid to not be on the outside of the apex of the corner where everyone would go off).
Possibly encorporate a way to get everyone to help out where on every corner or point of attraction there is someone with a simple Motorola 2-way that can report problems, damage, accidents, etc. This would not only encourage audience participation, but it would help make sure everything is much safer as well. Think about how at autocrosses if there is someone taking pictures, they must have someone spotting for them... same concept.
Possibly encorporate a way to get everyone to help out where on every corner or point of attraction there is someone with a simple Motorola 2-way that can report problems, damage, accidents, etc. This would not only encourage audience participation, but it would help make sure everything is much safer as well. Think about how at autocrosses if there is someone taking pictures, they must have someone spotting for them... same concept.
| wagonbeast | 03-18-2002 05:42 PM |
I was there. I didn't mind the 20 dollar pass, but I did mind the regulated viewing areas. I don't think it was really a safety issue but the forest people being a$$es. They were writing 100 dollar tickets to people who walked to far up the hill. Possible endangered plants. Stupid. The press stage was the sweetest. I have now officially ridden in a rally car.
| Thug | 03-18-2002 05:45 PM |
Sounds like the same kind of crap the tree huggers at Mt. Washington have been bitching about for years. They dont realize how much money that hillclimb brings to the mountain.
| Pete 97 GS-T | 03-19-2002 01:39 PM |
Heh, Jon saw my post on Special Stage (I was the thread starter). I see nothing wrong with how STPR and Maine conduct the spectating. Have "Preferred Spectator Areas", and have them marshalled. People will see the action. Let people mosey here and there outside the "Preferred Areas" and into nearby safe areas where the marshalls can see if it's safe or not. Those who meander far down the roads are those people who have spectated many many times and know what they're doing. I wouldn't let a first timer go anywhere. No way jose.
Pete <-- gonna be deep in the woods of STPR
Pete <-- gonna be deep in the woods of STPR
| OnTheGas | 03-19-2002 02:51 PM |
Endangered Dormant Plants & Rally Spectators
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Sanctum [/i]
[B]The marshals said that the Forest Service had told them that there were endangered dormant <sp> plants under the leaves. If spectators ventured up the hill they risked killing the "dormant plants". So instead of sitting safely on the hill we were all coralled down to the edge of the road and were allowed to watch about 60 yards worth of the trail.[/B][/QUOTE]This is not good for the future of this rally, unless a reasonable solution is worked out... From all the complaints of the spectators, this year's solution is not reasonable... hope this rally doesn't go by the wayside over this issue...
:(
[B]The marshals said that the Forest Service had told them that there were endangered dormant <sp> plants under the leaves. If spectators ventured up the hill they risked killing the "dormant plants". So instead of sitting safely on the hill we were all coralled down to the edge of the road and were allowed to watch about 60 yards worth of the trail.[/B][/QUOTE]This is not good for the future of this rally, unless a reasonable solution is worked out... From all the complaints of the spectators, this year's solution is not reasonable... hope this rally doesn't go by the wayside over this issue...
:(
| Spooled | 03-20-2002 01:45 AM |
I'd like for people to know that rally racing will be goin' down in the area and i'd like for it to be promoted but not too heavily. People shouldn't have to pay admission for it however.
| Ken C | 03-20-2002 02:46 AM |
a few ideas
Jon,
I hope that noone takes my last post as saying that STPR was not well organized - it is really superb, and the comments I made were only pointed towards improvements, expecting bigger crowds. The folks in FL region do a great job.
A few other ideas:
1.) We could use the i-club and websites like ours to help solicit additional workers - what better use for some of the new fans, and this also exposes them to rally in a good way
2.) Perhaps some extra warning / communicatioin with the local communities / DEP about expecting more crowds. I'm picturing for instance, before STPR - we could call the Police Chief and Mayor in Galeton, PA, where most of the people will be trooping through on the way to the southern spectator points and Germania service - just to tell them that we are expecting bigger crowds this year, that we are making efforts to ask everyone to tread lightly... and that perhaps they would want to set up a speed trap in Galeton just to make sure (or.. not).
The Forestry guys may like to know that a lot of the people are from outside the area, which means that the crowds arent all locals who are going to be tearing around their forest roads for the rest of the year?
3.) We could start a "green ribbon campaign" - hand out ribbons at the event, for display on lapels and / or radio antennas. The ribbons would show fans support for treading lightly - that they have bought into the idea of:
a.) treating the forests respectfully
b.) driving responsibly while at the event on public roads
c.) obeying the marshalls
We could use the green ribbon campaign, pushed by vendors, the SCCA, and the organizers to show local communities and forestry that while the sport is growing we are taking steps to manage it well - the locals and forestry would need to be educated about the ribbons, and every time that they see them they would be reminded of the effort.
Hope this helps!
Ken Cole
Rally Performance
I hope that noone takes my last post as saying that STPR was not well organized - it is really superb, and the comments I made were only pointed towards improvements, expecting bigger crowds. The folks in FL region do a great job.
A few other ideas:
1.) We could use the i-club and websites like ours to help solicit additional workers - what better use for some of the new fans, and this also exposes them to rally in a good way
2.) Perhaps some extra warning / communicatioin with the local communities / DEP about expecting more crowds. I'm picturing for instance, before STPR - we could call the Police Chief and Mayor in Galeton, PA, where most of the people will be trooping through on the way to the southern spectator points and Germania service - just to tell them that we are expecting bigger crowds this year, that we are making efforts to ask everyone to tread lightly... and that perhaps they would want to set up a speed trap in Galeton just to make sure (or.. not).
The Forestry guys may like to know that a lot of the people are from outside the area, which means that the crowds arent all locals who are going to be tearing around their forest roads for the rest of the year?
3.) We could start a "green ribbon campaign" - hand out ribbons at the event, for display on lapels and / or radio antennas. The ribbons would show fans support for treading lightly - that they have bought into the idea of:
a.) treating the forests respectfully
b.) driving responsibly while at the event on public roads
c.) obeying the marshalls
We could use the green ribbon campaign, pushed by vendors, the SCCA, and the organizers to show local communities and forestry that while the sport is growing we are taking steps to manage it well - the locals and forestry would need to be educated about the ribbons, and every time that they see them they would be reminded of the effort.
Hope this helps!
Ken Cole
Rally Performance
| Porter | 03-20-2002 05:16 PM |
This was my second year at Cherokee Trails, and if next year's event is anything like this one in terms of spectator facilities, I won't be coming back for a third time. I'd rather drive 600 miles to STPR than drive 2 hours to my local rally if I can't spectate in the traditional manner.
After speaking with several of the Chattanooga Region SCCA members who were marshaling the rally (I will leave them un-named), apparently the guy who is the head of the Forest Service in the eastern TN area has made it his PERSONAL MISSION to destroy the rally. Apparently he considers it "his woods" and is generally an ass about ANYONE using the land, even normal hikers and outdoors enthusiasts.
The SCCA and the city leadership of Chattanooga need to formally censure this guy and file a complaint with the U.S. Forest Service about his behavior.
I actually had a Forest Service marshal apologize to me about the spectator situation. He said that they were just doing what they were told to do, and that he didn't like it either.
The forest is PUBLIC LAND, and this Forest Service regional guy needs to get his act together. I'll see if I can do some research and find his name and email.
The fact that the service area was CLOSED to spectators after the rally website specifically said that it was open to us was pretty annoying too. The whole beauty of Rally is the fact that the spectators can get close to the drivers and teams. I didn't even get to say hello to several friends who were crewing (Hi Opie!) because when I tried to enter the service area I got screamed at.
I am VERY UNHAPPY about the manner in which I was treated as a spectator, and I WANT MY $20 BACK. My tax dollars pay for the maintenance of the land. I shouldn't have had to ante up again just to walk through the woods and sit so far away from the road that I couldn't even get a decent picture.
-Porter :mad:
After speaking with several of the Chattanooga Region SCCA members who were marshaling the rally (I will leave them un-named), apparently the guy who is the head of the Forest Service in the eastern TN area has made it his PERSONAL MISSION to destroy the rally. Apparently he considers it "his woods" and is generally an ass about ANYONE using the land, even normal hikers and outdoors enthusiasts.
The SCCA and the city leadership of Chattanooga need to formally censure this guy and file a complaint with the U.S. Forest Service about his behavior.
I actually had a Forest Service marshal apologize to me about the spectator situation. He said that they were just doing what they were told to do, and that he didn't like it either.
The forest is PUBLIC LAND, and this Forest Service regional guy needs to get his act together. I'll see if I can do some research and find his name and email.
The fact that the service area was CLOSED to spectators after the rally website specifically said that it was open to us was pretty annoying too. The whole beauty of Rally is the fact that the spectators can get close to the drivers and teams. I didn't even get to say hello to several friends who were crewing (Hi Opie!) because when I tried to enter the service area I got screamed at.
I am VERY UNHAPPY about the manner in which I was treated as a spectator, and I WANT MY $20 BACK. My tax dollars pay for the maintenance of the land. I shouldn't have had to ante up again just to walk through the woods and sit so far away from the road that I couldn't even get a decent picture.
-Porter :mad:
| jmullan | 03-20-2002 06:39 PM |
You should all come to Ojibwe in August. Enjoy free spectating and sweet rally roads. Bring your friends.
Better yet, volunteer to be marshalls, control workers, tech inspectors, and committee members. Bring your friends.
Better yet, volunteer to be marshalls, control workers, tech inspectors, and committee members. Bring your friends.
| Sanctum | 03-21-2002 01:11 AM |
Porter, you obviously spent as much time thinking about it as I did. I'm a newbie at this whole scene, so I might be a little more forgiving, but it seemed as if those old and young had similar complaints.
If you are interested in contacting the head of the Cherokee National Forest the person to speak to would be:
Robert E. Lee (yes you read that correctly)
Phone 423-338-5201
Address: Route 1, Box 348-D Benton, Tennessee 37307
The marshall I spoke to said he was the decision maker as far as people going deep into the forest or standing 3ft from the trails edge. Supposedly Mr. Lee visited the spectator area the day of the rally and saw the number of people and decided then and there that they couldn't spectate from the top of the hill.
- Brian
If you are interested in contacting the head of the Cherokee National Forest the person to speak to would be:
Robert E. Lee (yes you read that correctly)
Phone 423-338-5201
Address: Route 1, Box 348-D Benton, Tennessee 37307
The marshall I spoke to said he was the decision maker as far as people going deep into the forest or standing 3ft from the trails edge. Supposedly Mr. Lee visited the spectator area the day of the rally and saw the number of people and decided then and there that they couldn't spectate from the top of the hill.
- Brian
| Sanctum | 03-28-2002 05:01 PM |
Kurt Spitzner ( SCCA Director of Performance Rally ) replied to my e-mail and asked that I give him a call. We spoke for about 20 - 30 minutes about Cherokee and he was honestly interested in what we all saw there. He was there himself but noted that he spent most of his time in the service area. He stressed to me that rally in the US was going through growing pains, but that in itself was not an excuse for the way CT was handled. He noted that there was a lot of non/mis-communication both within the organizers and the Forestry service. He also mentioned that some of his insight was posted in the Chattanooga newspaper. I dug up the article after I spoke with him and will quote it below. Finally, he said that Cherokee was on the calander for next year, but whether a rally would be held there would have to be determined by the local (government), forestry officials, and those associated.
Kurt's a great guy to speak with and with him being a driving force behind SCCA rally, I can't see how things can do anything except get better. Thumbs up to him.
---Blatent Cut and Past from the Chattanooga Times Free Press---
[quote]Unhappy Trails
By Ward Gossett
Assistant Sports Editor
A squabble between the Cherokee Trails International Rally organizers and the U.S. Forestry Service could end the automobile race's three-year run in Chattanooga, organizers say.
"There is definitely a squabble," said Kurt Spitzner, a national director with Sports Car Club of America, one of the race's sanctioning bodies. "It is obvious the U.S. Forestry service does not want us in Cherokee National Forest." The conflict involves the racers' use of logging roads in Cherokee National Forest, the environmental impact of cars and spectators, and manpower problems in and financial reimbursement to the Forestry Service. The Cherokee National Forest has one ranger and six law enforcement officers, according to Cherokee National Forest public relations officer Terry McDonald, who said the service is concerned about its ability to handle the rally while maintaining its day-to-day duties. "The forest is 640,000 acres, and we felt we needed eight officers for this event and had to pull in some. We have to look at it --the impact on work force, environmental impacts," he said. "As far as coming right out and saying we don't want (the rally), we haven't said that." The Cherokee Trails sports car race is a 287-mile event held in stages, mostly in the Cherokee National Forest in Polk County, with the winners determined by elapsed time. This year's race was run from dawn to dusk on March 16, and the last of eight stages was canceled at the request of the forest service. Spitzner cannot move the race, but he can be instrumental in lifting the event's SCCA sanction. He said he had seen enough races run in national forests to know whether the races are wanted. "The forestry service, by government charge, has to make the forest available to all," Spitzner said, "but the (forestry) mindset is, 'If there are people we don't want in the forest, we can make their lives pretty miserable.' "It is in our interest to make sure we are going places that we are wanted, and the situation is not invisible to myself, the national office or the (automobile) manufacturers involved." The forest service says its primary concerns are the strain on a small staff, and on the environment. "This is a pretty big impact on us," said McDonald. "Our work force has been reduced by 30 percent. We're trying to evaluate and see if we can take this on again." Rally organizers complaints range from rapidly escalating fees to poor treatment of the race's fans.
Three years ago in its first year of existence, the Cherokee Trails rally paid about $2,000 for post-rally road repairs in the forest. According to rally organizer Kendall Russell, the next year's fee was "about $2,300." "This past year, we received a bill for $12,000, and it was not itemized," Russell said. "And in the meantime, we had submitted our request for 2002 permits, which was ignored. Don Kinnerson, the Cherokee National Forest ranger responsible for the southern district where the race is held, transferred in late last year. "I don't know where that $2,300 figure comes from, but prior to the event last year they paid a base permit fee with full knowledge that there would be additional assessments for law enforcement and road maintenance. Last year and again this year the roads were very wet," he said. "There is an impact. All we're trying to get is fair compensation." Several spectators have written to complain about spectator areas because of their lack of viewing opportunities and the fact that they were not allowed
freedom of movement from one spectator area to another.
Spectator Scott Mathis wrote and said, "I and many others will not be returning to this rally ... The ridiculous restrictions of designating spectator areas was absurd." He also pointed out that the areas were limited in size, too far from the actual racing, and that visibility was poor. "The ticket I purchased clearly says that I attend this event at my own risk, as any event ticket does. But as a slap in the face, you make us watch the race from such a distance that the only thing dangerous is the squirrel sitting on a nearby tree ... No other rally in the world does this," Mathis
wrote. Kinnerson said there was a potential environmental impact. "We had a concern that a concentration of people could be detrimental to sensitive plants that may -- or may not, for that matter -- have been in the area," he said. "I felt the appropriate thing to do was to restrict them to old road beds. I'm hearing that a lot of people were disappointed with what they could view from those road beds. "Without having the opportunity for a botanist to look at those areas then and even now -- if I erred, I wanted to err on the side of caution."[/quote]
Kurt's a great guy to speak with and with him being a driving force behind SCCA rally, I can't see how things can do anything except get better. Thumbs up to him.
---Blatent Cut and Past from the Chattanooga Times Free Press---
[quote]Unhappy Trails
By Ward Gossett
Assistant Sports Editor
A squabble between the Cherokee Trails International Rally organizers and the U.S. Forestry Service could end the automobile race's three-year run in Chattanooga, organizers say.
"There is definitely a squabble," said Kurt Spitzner, a national director with Sports Car Club of America, one of the race's sanctioning bodies. "It is obvious the U.S. Forestry service does not want us in Cherokee National Forest." The conflict involves the racers' use of logging roads in Cherokee National Forest, the environmental impact of cars and spectators, and manpower problems in and financial reimbursement to the Forestry Service. The Cherokee National Forest has one ranger and six law enforcement officers, according to Cherokee National Forest public relations officer Terry McDonald, who said the service is concerned about its ability to handle the rally while maintaining its day-to-day duties. "The forest is 640,000 acres, and we felt we needed eight officers for this event and had to pull in some. We have to look at it --the impact on work force, environmental impacts," he said. "As far as coming right out and saying we don't want (the rally), we haven't said that." The Cherokee Trails sports car race is a 287-mile event held in stages, mostly in the Cherokee National Forest in Polk County, with the winners determined by elapsed time. This year's race was run from dawn to dusk on March 16, and the last of eight stages was canceled at the request of the forest service. Spitzner cannot move the race, but he can be instrumental in lifting the event's SCCA sanction. He said he had seen enough races run in national forests to know whether the races are wanted. "The forestry service, by government charge, has to make the forest available to all," Spitzner said, "but the (forestry) mindset is, 'If there are people we don't want in the forest, we can make their lives pretty miserable.' "It is in our interest to make sure we are going places that we are wanted, and the situation is not invisible to myself, the national office or the (automobile) manufacturers involved." The forest service says its primary concerns are the strain on a small staff, and on the environment. "This is a pretty big impact on us," said McDonald. "Our work force has been reduced by 30 percent. We're trying to evaluate and see if we can take this on again." Rally organizers complaints range from rapidly escalating fees to poor treatment of the race's fans.
Three years ago in its first year of existence, the Cherokee Trails rally paid about $2,000 for post-rally road repairs in the forest. According to rally organizer Kendall Russell, the next year's fee was "about $2,300." "This past year, we received a bill for $12,000, and it was not itemized," Russell said. "And in the meantime, we had submitted our request for 2002 permits, which was ignored. Don Kinnerson, the Cherokee National Forest ranger responsible for the southern district where the race is held, transferred in late last year. "I don't know where that $2,300 figure comes from, but prior to the event last year they paid a base permit fee with full knowledge that there would be additional assessments for law enforcement and road maintenance. Last year and again this year the roads were very wet," he said. "There is an impact. All we're trying to get is fair compensation." Several spectators have written to complain about spectator areas because of their lack of viewing opportunities and the fact that they were not allowed
freedom of movement from one spectator area to another.
Spectator Scott Mathis wrote and said, "I and many others will not be returning to this rally ... The ridiculous restrictions of designating spectator areas was absurd." He also pointed out that the areas were limited in size, too far from the actual racing, and that visibility was poor. "The ticket I purchased clearly says that I attend this event at my own risk, as any event ticket does. But as a slap in the face, you make us watch the race from such a distance that the only thing dangerous is the squirrel sitting on a nearby tree ... No other rally in the world does this," Mathis
wrote. Kinnerson said there was a potential environmental impact. "We had a concern that a concentration of people could be detrimental to sensitive plants that may -- or may not, for that matter -- have been in the area," he said. "I felt the appropriate thing to do was to restrict them to old road beds. I'm hearing that a lot of people were disappointed with what they could view from those road beds. "Without having the opportunity for a botanist to look at those areas then and even now -- if I erred, I wanted to err on the side of caution."[/quote]
| johnfelstead | 03-29-2002 08:03 AM |
Oh boy!
You have how many acres of woodland and they are concerned about a few saplings. I dont buy that at all. It's just an excuse to keep you out of THIER forest.
It seems you have a backwards system in the USA with regards to Forest charges. In the UK we have set prices that the rally organisors have to pay the Forestry commision based on the miles used by the event and the number of cars runing, this pays for regrading of the roads after the event.
There is a deal between the MSA (Motor Sports Association) and the Forestry commision, everyone knows the charges BEFORE the event and that is taken from the entry fees the competitors pay. How can you run an event not knowing if doing so will bankrupt the organisors? I dont get that?
On the spectator control side of things. I just returned from the Rally Catalunya WRC round. On that event i saw no marshalls on day one at all, apart from the people maning the start control. A few stages were canceled, the reason for this wasnt really overcrowding, it was the fact IMHO that the roads were closed too late and people were parking their cars instage in stupid positions. I think they need to take a close look at that. On the whole people were responsible and the crowds self marshalled themselves, if anyone did something stupid the crowds gave them a hard time, quite fun actually. :D
Based on what i saw in Catalunya, i doubt if rally got to that stage in the USA you would run a single stage though, your organisors would be terified of being sued should something go wrong and someone were killed. I think there is a big culture diference between Europe, especially mainland Europe and the USA with respect to personal responsability. People in Europe are of the opinion that it is their own fault if they get hurt, people in the USA want to blame someone for their own incompetence. How rally sits with this culture diference i dont know, i hope you have good liability insurance on the events!
Trying to run an event that the spectators enjoy in cherokee looks imposible whilst you have little hitler attitudes like those shown by the Forest Stewards there. Something has to be done to address that quickly otherwise that event will be made imposible to run.
Education is the key to safe spectating and the only people who can do that are the organisors and the people who participate already. I dont think charging people is going to do that one bit. You need a pre event spectator pack that has basic rules in it easily available. You need instruction boards at the most popular spectator points and you need marshalls that dont act like powercrazy people, but who are friendly and explane why they want you to move. What you definately dont need is people being caged in to areas they cant enjoy the events from.
You have how many acres of woodland and they are concerned about a few saplings. I dont buy that at all. It's just an excuse to keep you out of THIER forest.
It seems you have a backwards system in the USA with regards to Forest charges. In the UK we have set prices that the rally organisors have to pay the Forestry commision based on the miles used by the event and the number of cars runing, this pays for regrading of the roads after the event.
There is a deal between the MSA (Motor Sports Association) and the Forestry commision, everyone knows the charges BEFORE the event and that is taken from the entry fees the competitors pay. How can you run an event not knowing if doing so will bankrupt the organisors? I dont get that?
On the spectator control side of things. I just returned from the Rally Catalunya WRC round. On that event i saw no marshalls on day one at all, apart from the people maning the start control. A few stages were canceled, the reason for this wasnt really overcrowding, it was the fact IMHO that the roads were closed too late and people were parking their cars instage in stupid positions. I think they need to take a close look at that. On the whole people were responsible and the crowds self marshalled themselves, if anyone did something stupid the crowds gave them a hard time, quite fun actually. :D
Based on what i saw in Catalunya, i doubt if rally got to that stage in the USA you would run a single stage though, your organisors would be terified of being sued should something go wrong and someone were killed. I think there is a big culture diference between Europe, especially mainland Europe and the USA with respect to personal responsability. People in Europe are of the opinion that it is their own fault if they get hurt, people in the USA want to blame someone for their own incompetence. How rally sits with this culture diference i dont know, i hope you have good liability insurance on the events!
Trying to run an event that the spectators enjoy in cherokee looks imposible whilst you have little hitler attitudes like those shown by the Forest Stewards there. Something has to be done to address that quickly otherwise that event will be made imposible to run.
Education is the key to safe spectating and the only people who can do that are the organisors and the people who participate already. I dont think charging people is going to do that one bit. You need a pre event spectator pack that has basic rules in it easily available. You need instruction boards at the most popular spectator points and you need marshalls that dont act like powercrazy people, but who are friendly and explane why they want you to move. What you definately dont need is people being caged in to areas they cant enjoy the events from.
| callawayv | 03-29-2002 11:44 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by johnfelstead [/i]
[B]Oh boy!
Based on what i saw in Catalunya, i doubt if rally got to that stage in the USA you would run a single stage though, your organisors would be terified of being sued should something go wrong and someone were killed. I think there is a big culture diference between Europe, especially mainland Europe and the USA with respect to personal responsability. People in Europe are of the opinion that it is their own fault if they get hurt, people in the USA want to blame someone for their own incompetence. How rally sits with this culture diference i dont know, i hope you have good liability insurance on the events!
[/B][/QUOTE]
Boy did you nail that! What happened to the day where you were repsonsible for YOUR OWN actions here? I loved when I read over there, where the judge ruled in the MacDonalds case over hot tea and coffee. I believe he threw it out of the court room saying anyone with a brain and orders coffe or tea knows it's hot.
I think society here has turned into weak minded p_ssies with all of these lawsuits.
Anyhoo, have the road marshalls, and charge fans.
[B]Oh boy!
Based on what i saw in Catalunya, i doubt if rally got to that stage in the USA you would run a single stage though, your organisors would be terified of being sued should something go wrong and someone were killed. I think there is a big culture diference between Europe, especially mainland Europe and the USA with respect to personal responsability. People in Europe are of the opinion that it is their own fault if they get hurt, people in the USA want to blame someone for their own incompetence. How rally sits with this culture diference i dont know, i hope you have good liability insurance on the events!
[/B][/QUOTE]
Boy did you nail that! What happened to the day where you were repsonsible for YOUR OWN actions here? I loved when I read over there, where the judge ruled in the MacDonalds case over hot tea and coffee. I believe he threw it out of the court room saying anyone with a brain and orders coffe or tea knows it's hot.
I think society here has turned into weak minded p_ssies with all of these lawsuits.
Anyhoo, have the road marshalls, and charge fans.
| RideHardIntoMyUndy's | 03-29-2002 01:49 PM |
lets keep this **** underground.
| NotAnRS | 03-30-2002 08:56 AM |
I rate myself a 'professional' spectator. I've been going to STPR since 1986, have gone to Maine 3x, Chillicothe once, and Cherokee Trails once (last year).
Last year's visit to CT is the only one I'm likely to make. Spectating there is virtually impossible. There are few connector roads, and what are there are often gated. We attempted to recce spectator sites prior to the event and couldn't drive on most of the roads thanks to the gates.
The park rangers I am frankly completely aggravated with. They do just about everything they can to drive spectators from the park (which, while they are so strongly protecting, is one of the trashiest parks I've been in. Garbage everywhere). 'Office Bob' as we nicknamed the ranger watching our spectating point was apparently a frustrated cop who couldn't get a better job as he sat grumbling in his Jeep paging through a Soldier of Fortune magazine (I'm not kidding).
It is a shame; the roads and terrain are a lot of fun.
STPR, in contrast, is the most open event you could hope for. We generally watch from any place we want along the stage (safely) and access via other roads is usually good. My only gripe is some of the workers (and I've been one in the past) think an orange vest gives them presidential powers. I've seen them be extremely rude to spectators who simply don't know better. Educating the public is part of the job. While it can be frustrating to repeat the same things to every 3rd person, I was embarrassed to be associated with the SCCA on a couple occasions that these self-proclaimed 'police' rudely antagonized folks. Luckily, this is a fairly rare occurrence.
My group enjoys the freedom of being in the woods and doing our own thing. Spectator areas are often too crowded, and ingress/egress with all the traffic difficult. We employ many maps to get us to other spots that are just as good but less populated, and safety is always first in our minds.
My final pet peeve is that both STPR and CT are held on state or federal lands...lands that you and I own, maintain, etc. and I think charging ANY amount to use them is obscene.
Last year's visit to CT is the only one I'm likely to make. Spectating there is virtually impossible. There are few connector roads, and what are there are often gated. We attempted to recce spectator sites prior to the event and couldn't drive on most of the roads thanks to the gates.
The park rangers I am frankly completely aggravated with. They do just about everything they can to drive spectators from the park (which, while they are so strongly protecting, is one of the trashiest parks I've been in. Garbage everywhere). 'Office Bob' as we nicknamed the ranger watching our spectating point was apparently a frustrated cop who couldn't get a better job as he sat grumbling in his Jeep paging through a Soldier of Fortune magazine (I'm not kidding).
It is a shame; the roads and terrain are a lot of fun.
STPR, in contrast, is the most open event you could hope for. We generally watch from any place we want along the stage (safely) and access via other roads is usually good. My only gripe is some of the workers (and I've been one in the past) think an orange vest gives them presidential powers. I've seen them be extremely rude to spectators who simply don't know better. Educating the public is part of the job. While it can be frustrating to repeat the same things to every 3rd person, I was embarrassed to be associated with the SCCA on a couple occasions that these self-proclaimed 'police' rudely antagonized folks. Luckily, this is a fairly rare occurrence.
My group enjoys the freedom of being in the woods and doing our own thing. Spectator areas are often too crowded, and ingress/egress with all the traffic difficult. We employ many maps to get us to other spots that are just as good but less populated, and safety is always first in our minds.
My final pet peeve is that both STPR and CT are held on state or federal lands...lands that you and I own, maintain, etc. and I think charging ANY amount to use them is obscene.
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