| Jon Bogert | 06-07-2002 09:09 AM |
Rim gives SCCA the finger
Many of you have read my bitching and whining about SCCA's mismanagement of ProRally. Now it appears that the event organizers are beginning to put their (feet) down. Can a new sanctioning organization be far behind?
[QUOTE]Why Return Rim of the World to the ClubRally-only Level?
Background:
For the past few years RIM (like all ProRally events) has experienced significant growth in all areas. Despite the stress associated with this growth, RIM this year was a huge success. We had an 80-car field, which was 13 more cars than last year and 28 more than two years ago. Subaru of America made RIM a special "owners event" and brought over WRC Subaru Team driver Petter Solberg as a VIP guest. This attracted nearly 700 Subaru owners from all over the West Coast. In preparation for this attention we doubled the number of spectator areas and tripled the number of spectator marshals - a good thing. Subaru, Hyundai and Mitsubishi set up displays with tents, giveaways, and cars to show. They wooed the crowd as well as the large number of "heavy hitters" from the press that came to the event. Other automotive related vendors also were attracted, and participated.
Given the success of this year's RIM, why are we not continuing to offer it to the ProRally Series? The following are the key reasons for this decision:
Performance Rally Department Attitude:
We have finally run out of patience with the Performance Rally Department's lack of support for ProRally organizers. The only "support" from SCCA, aside from excellent insurance coverage, is association with a championship series and its sponsors. There is no financial support, no real understanding of what is involved in putting on a big rally, and especially, no understanding of what motivates rally volunteers. In fact, the ProRally organizer will encounter roadblocks to growth.
Rather than developing a team effort to build the series, the Performance Rally Department exhibits an attitude of condescension and territoriality. Traditionally, SCCA has felt that it "owns" each event and all the rights associated with it, as it might in a racing series - and a rally is lucky to be included. SCCA seems to feel that the rally organizer is analogous to the track owner, or perhaps to a race promoter. This is simply not a good analogy. Usually the U.S. Forest Service or some other agency owns the roads. The rally organizer secures the use of the roads and the other permits required, organizes the volunteer staff, and executes the event. When all is said and done it is the rally organizer that is financially responsible (and financially liable) for the event – whether it is a simple committee, such as at Rim, or an SCCA region. The organizers do not generally make money on their rallies but are treated by SCCA as if they do, with the increasing expectations for performance that you might expect with a professional series.
In fact, the organizers face hurdles if they wish to become truly professional – and a few of them do. In the sanction agreement SCCA claims all media rights and requires organizers to obtain SCCA approval before lining up sponsors. The series sponsors are seen as more important than the event's sponsors, which was the justification given for taking down our local sponsor's "paid for" banners and replacing them with the Series sponsors' banners at RIM 2001. ProRally organizers are strongly encouraged to stick to "local" sponsors and local media coverage and are not given any support in making their events marketable.
The ProRally organizers have been trying, since our meeting together in August, to have meaningful negotiations with SCCA concerning the sanction agreement, and have made only limited progress. There have been phone conferences with Kurt and a meeting with both Kurt and Steve Johnson at the convention. Kurt has insisted on negotiating with each organizer individually, using delay tactics to force the organizer to accept a less than desirable agreement. The sanction agreements for both Cherokee Trails and RIM were not signed until the week of their respective events. This is not negotiating in good faith.
We feel this is an unacceptable situation. The organizer of a ProRally should not have to fight with the sanctioning body over basic event ownership issues.
Financial and Organizational Viability:
RIM has achieved its current level of "professional appearance" by various bootstrapping and shoestring approaches. Many products and services are donated at half price or less, because we put on the event as a non-profit operation. Volunteers are used for numerous tasks that require significant manual labor. In fact, volunteers do almost everything including the publicity brochure, the official program, the press releases and website, clearing and repairing the roads, staffing the event, building and tearing down the spectator stage and performing many other operations that lead to a successful and professional looking rally.
The problem with this approach is that it becomes more and more difficult to maintain as the event grows. All volunteers have a limited amount of time that they are willing to give to the event, especially in the months before the actual rally when the critical planning and coordination between team leaders takes place. This produces the need for a very large number of team leaders to do all the pre-event work. We had nearly 300 volunteers this year, including 44 key people or team leaders. Sustaining a volunteer organization of this size is a difficult task. This is compounded when growth is involved. Growth increases the demands on the 44 key people causing some to quit because the time commitment has exceeded what they are willing to give. Combining growth-induced staff turnover with normal attrition can produce an unstable organization. All in all, this is not a sustainable approach for a big event.
Why is RIM organized in this shoestring manner? The answer is simple. Sponsors do not place enough value on ProRally to pay what it would cost to organize the event in a sustainable fashion. If the rally had a budget that allowed it to build a stable structure and hire out many of the tasks required, continued growth in the promotional areas of the event (for example, spectator stages and spectator-friendly service areas) would be feasible. However, with the current financial constraints, we feel attempting to keep up with the growth in the sport will lead to failure.
Pro Only or Club Only:
One area where growth has a defined limit is in the number of competitors. RIM is limited to 80 cars by the Angeles National Forest. We were right at that limit this year, starting 80 cars on Friday night. If an organizer has to limit entries, the new ProRally Rules require the rally to accept the entries of the cars in the higher seeds first. This will in fact eliminate cars from the ClubRally field, while having little impact on the ProRally field. For these reasons it won't be long before most combined ProRally/ClubRally events will have to choose between being a ProRally-only event or returning to being a ClubRally. Two events (STPR and Maine Forest) have already chosen to be ProRally-only events. Given that the growth in entries continues (and interest in our local rally schools indicates that it will), RIM will need to make this decision in 2003 or certainly by 2004.
Faced with this decision, and considering the first two reasons, we have chosen to return to being a ClubRally-only pair of events, beginning in 2003.
/s/ Mike and Paula Gibeault, June 6, 2002
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Why Return Rim of the World to the ClubRally-only Level?
Background:
For the past few years RIM (like all ProRally events) has experienced significant growth in all areas. Despite the stress associated with this growth, RIM this year was a huge success. We had an 80-car field, which was 13 more cars than last year and 28 more than two years ago. Subaru of America made RIM a special "owners event" and brought over WRC Subaru Team driver Petter Solberg as a VIP guest. This attracted nearly 700 Subaru owners from all over the West Coast. In preparation for this attention we doubled the number of spectator areas and tripled the number of spectator marshals - a good thing. Subaru, Hyundai and Mitsubishi set up displays with tents, giveaways, and cars to show. They wooed the crowd as well as the large number of "heavy hitters" from the press that came to the event. Other automotive related vendors also were attracted, and participated.
Given the success of this year's RIM, why are we not continuing to offer it to the ProRally Series? The following are the key reasons for this decision:
Performance Rally Department Attitude:
We have finally run out of patience with the Performance Rally Department's lack of support for ProRally organizers. The only "support" from SCCA, aside from excellent insurance coverage, is association with a championship series and its sponsors. There is no financial support, no real understanding of what is involved in putting on a big rally, and especially, no understanding of what motivates rally volunteers. In fact, the ProRally organizer will encounter roadblocks to growth.
Rather than developing a team effort to build the series, the Performance Rally Department exhibits an attitude of condescension and territoriality. Traditionally, SCCA has felt that it "owns" each event and all the rights associated with it, as it might in a racing series - and a rally is lucky to be included. SCCA seems to feel that the rally organizer is analogous to the track owner, or perhaps to a race promoter. This is simply not a good analogy. Usually the U.S. Forest Service or some other agency owns the roads. The rally organizer secures the use of the roads and the other permits required, organizes the volunteer staff, and executes the event. When all is said and done it is the rally organizer that is financially responsible (and financially liable) for the event – whether it is a simple committee, such as at Rim, or an SCCA region. The organizers do not generally make money on their rallies but are treated by SCCA as if they do, with the increasing expectations for performance that you might expect with a professional series.
In fact, the organizers face hurdles if they wish to become truly professional – and a few of them do. In the sanction agreement SCCA claims all media rights and requires organizers to obtain SCCA approval before lining up sponsors. The series sponsors are seen as more important than the event's sponsors, which was the justification given for taking down our local sponsor's "paid for" banners and replacing them with the Series sponsors' banners at RIM 2001. ProRally organizers are strongly encouraged to stick to "local" sponsors and local media coverage and are not given any support in making their events marketable.
The ProRally organizers have been trying, since our meeting together in August, to have meaningful negotiations with SCCA concerning the sanction agreement, and have made only limited progress. There have been phone conferences with Kurt and a meeting with both Kurt and Steve Johnson at the convention. Kurt has insisted on negotiating with each organizer individually, using delay tactics to force the organizer to accept a less than desirable agreement. The sanction agreements for both Cherokee Trails and RIM were not signed until the week of their respective events. This is not negotiating in good faith.
We feel this is an unacceptable situation. The organizer of a ProRally should not have to fight with the sanctioning body over basic event ownership issues.
Financial and Organizational Viability:
RIM has achieved its current level of "professional appearance" by various bootstrapping and shoestring approaches. Many products and services are donated at half price or less, because we put on the event as a non-profit operation. Volunteers are used for numerous tasks that require significant manual labor. In fact, volunteers do almost everything including the publicity brochure, the official program, the press releases and website, clearing and repairing the roads, staffing the event, building and tearing down the spectator stage and performing many other operations that lead to a successful and professional looking rally.
The problem with this approach is that it becomes more and more difficult to maintain as the event grows. All volunteers have a limited amount of time that they are willing to give to the event, especially in the months before the actual rally when the critical planning and coordination between team leaders takes place. This produces the need for a very large number of team leaders to do all the pre-event work. We had nearly 300 volunteers this year, including 44 key people or team leaders. Sustaining a volunteer organization of this size is a difficult task. This is compounded when growth is involved. Growth increases the demands on the 44 key people causing some to quit because the time commitment has exceeded what they are willing to give. Combining growth-induced staff turnover with normal attrition can produce an unstable organization. All in all, this is not a sustainable approach for a big event.
Why is RIM organized in this shoestring manner? The answer is simple. Sponsors do not place enough value on ProRally to pay what it would cost to organize the event in a sustainable fashion. If the rally had a budget that allowed it to build a stable structure and hire out many of the tasks required, continued growth in the promotional areas of the event (for example, spectator stages and spectator-friendly service areas) would be feasible. However, with the current financial constraints, we feel attempting to keep up with the growth in the sport will lead to failure.
Pro Only or Club Only:
One area where growth has a defined limit is in the number of competitors. RIM is limited to 80 cars by the Angeles National Forest. We were right at that limit this year, starting 80 cars on Friday night. If an organizer has to limit entries, the new ProRally Rules require the rally to accept the entries of the cars in the higher seeds first. This will in fact eliminate cars from the ClubRally field, while having little impact on the ProRally field. For these reasons it won't be long before most combined ProRally/ClubRally events will have to choose between being a ProRally-only event or returning to being a ClubRally. Two events (STPR and Maine Forest) have already chosen to be ProRally-only events. Given that the growth in entries continues (and interest in our local rally schools indicates that it will), RIM will need to make this decision in 2003 or certainly by 2004.
Faced with this decision, and considering the first two reasons, we have chosen to return to being a ClubRally-only pair of events, beginning in 2003.
/s/ Mike and Paula Gibeault, June 6, 2002
[/QUOTE]
| Zahnster | 06-07-2002 10:53 AM |
[QUOTE]
Many of you have read my bitching and whining about SCCA's mismanagement of ProRally. Now it appears that the event organizers are beginning to put their (feet) down. Can a new sanctioning organization be far behind?
[/QUOTE]
Not being argumentative, just keeping a dialog going:
It sounds as if the biggest reason for going to a Club Rally only event is the car limit enforced by the Forestry service and the SCCA's rules on how to deal with the car limit.
The rest of the stuff is legitimate complaints, but even going to FIA rules isn't going to help the car limit problem.
Many of you have read my bitching and whining about SCCA's mismanagement of ProRally. Now it appears that the event organizers are beginning to put their (feet) down. Can a new sanctioning organization be far behind?
[/QUOTE]
Not being argumentative, just keeping a dialog going:
It sounds as if the biggest reason for going to a Club Rally only event is the car limit enforced by the Forestry service and the SCCA's rules on how to deal with the car limit.
The rest of the stuff is legitimate complaints, but even going to FIA rules isn't going to help the car limit problem.
| Jon Bogert | 06-07-2002 10:59 AM |
I think the biggest reasons are the SCCA and the manufacturer teams create a headache for organizers without giving them anything in return. If they can sell out the event without having so sign away all their rights for no compensation, more power to them! Maybe if the organizers got a big fat check from Speedvision or Subaru or Hyundai it would be worth it, but right now the "big show" does a lot of taking and not much giving.
Plus they're rude. :D
Plus they're rude. :D
| Section 8 | 06-07-2002 11:40 AM |
(Insert just about any quip from Jens Larsen here regarding the New World Order) :lol:
SCCA has a lot of problems in ProRally. Any major changes now are going to be tough with the decisions that SCCA has been making through the years. THey have been running the FIA classes, but have keep the non international classes because that is ALOT of what the grass roots types are running. SCCA may not be capable of running Performance Rally. It literally is, "The Sports Car Club of America". It is essentially run by grass roots participants each weekend across the US, and that part works very well. They have a main office with people who have full time jobs on the matter, but the office has little control of what goes on. A colaboration of event orginizers MAY not be any better, but for different reasons.
If the "Performance Rally" world decides to boot SCCA, there are going to be alot of hard decisions to make, about how things are going to to continue. Alot of people have ideas, as do I, on how things should be. Regardless of what they are, there are going to be toes stepped on sooner or later, and some people are going to REALLY hate the new, or the same old road that is chosen. Orginizers HAVE to put on the rallies because they want to, and keep the new franchise alive, not because they are hoping to make money for themselves. If money makers are in charge we will end up with the same problems that have been plaging sports car racing through the years. That just will not work. To build the series, THEN start taking money out of it when it becomes lucritive is buisness, the quick buck is good for no one.
My $0.02
Greg
SCCA has a lot of problems in ProRally. Any major changes now are going to be tough with the decisions that SCCA has been making through the years. THey have been running the FIA classes, but have keep the non international classes because that is ALOT of what the grass roots types are running. SCCA may not be capable of running Performance Rally. It literally is, "The Sports Car Club of America". It is essentially run by grass roots participants each weekend across the US, and that part works very well. They have a main office with people who have full time jobs on the matter, but the office has little control of what goes on. A colaboration of event orginizers MAY not be any better, but for different reasons.
If the "Performance Rally" world decides to boot SCCA, there are going to be alot of hard decisions to make, about how things are going to to continue. Alot of people have ideas, as do I, on how things should be. Regardless of what they are, there are going to be toes stepped on sooner or later, and some people are going to REALLY hate the new, or the same old road that is chosen. Orginizers HAVE to put on the rallies because they want to, and keep the new franchise alive, not because they are hoping to make money for themselves. If money makers are in charge we will end up with the same problems that have been plaging sports car racing through the years. That just will not work. To build the series, THEN start taking money out of it when it becomes lucritive is buisness, the quick buck is good for no one.
My $0.02
Greg
| RacingBlue | 06-07-2002 12:12 PM |
Just FYI, Subaru Western Region has given extensive support directly to the RIM organisers and CRS in almost every way possible. From the rally Title Sponsor, Press Stage Sponsor, local dealers envolvement, post rally taco bar, Rim posters, promotional items, small portable generators, timing equipment, safety vests, rallyX school support, tent(s), charity donations, club event support. Ditto to varing degrees with the two No. West ProRallys. The support has been there for the seven years I have been with Subaru and I am sure it will continue as it has been a great win-win relationship. Western Region also offers a Subaru club contingency program for NorPac and SoPac/CRS events this year as well as the SCCA ProRally contingency program.
SUBARU IS ENVOLVED AT THE GRASSROOTS LEVEL.
I certainly hope we have been rude to no one.
Just my personal comments. Rally on!
SUBARU IS ENVOLVED AT THE GRASSROOTS LEVEL.
I certainly hope we have been rude to no one.
Just my personal comments. Rally on!
| Section 8 | 06-07-2002 12:38 PM |
[QUOTE]SUBARU IS ENVOLVED AT THE GRASSROOTS LEVEL. [/QUOTE]
WOW! My wife says that I need to evolve.... and I'm 6'1"! :lol:
Was that decision made by just your region? Was it made this year, or just last year? THere wasn't a whole lot of Subaru involvement at the LSPR in years past. The problems haven't just started, they are just becoming worse, if this is evidence of what is more to come that is obviously good.
Greg
WOW! My wife says that I need to evolve.... and I'm 6'1"! :lol:
Was that decision made by just your region? Was it made this year, or just last year? THere wasn't a whole lot of Subaru involvement at the LSPR in years past. The problems haven't just started, they are just becoming worse, if this is evidence of what is more to come that is obviously good.
Greg
| randy zimmer | 06-07-2002 12:51 PM |
Rude! - who me?
Sorry Phil, Jon made an inside joke.
Kurt Spitzner said "I" was rude to interrupt his conversation once.
--------
This is the same amature/pro SCCA debate that has been ongoing for years. SCCA is a great club of great people selflessly doing things because they like to. Then, the National office thinks they can build it into a money-making thing and fall on their ass because National doesn't add anything but "pomp" to the event - and the pomp is more pompus than show. The only good sponsors I can remember SCCA getting were Johnson's Wax and First Nat'l City in the old Can-Am. National promises a title sponsor but can never deliver. Now that Trans-Am has been farmed out to Sanchez' group, National has nothing better than Rally to goof up. The club has no money to invest and just makes demands of everyone to support the new "pomp". Added fees, added sanctions, added expenses for questionable benefit. ex: we had to pay the tech guy to look at plans of the Trans-Am car we were building, fly him from Denver to NY and back plus expenses and show him around the shop, otherwise, no homolugation for the car. Did it help the show or make sure the car wasn't illegal, no, it just cost money and a couple days production we could have used. At PRI I asked Kurt where the PRO in Pro Rally was (ie:purse) and his response was - if you can't afford it, stay in Club rallies. Steve Johnson was at STPR and made the long walk to the end of our street and stopped to talk to an obviously underfunded group, he even thanked us for coming and competing - Will things change? Can you run a rally on a concrete airfield?
rz
Kurt Spitzner said "I" was rude to interrupt his conversation once.
--------
This is the same amature/pro SCCA debate that has been ongoing for years. SCCA is a great club of great people selflessly doing things because they like to. Then, the National office thinks they can build it into a money-making thing and fall on their ass because National doesn't add anything but "pomp" to the event - and the pomp is more pompus than show. The only good sponsors I can remember SCCA getting were Johnson's Wax and First Nat'l City in the old Can-Am. National promises a title sponsor but can never deliver. Now that Trans-Am has been farmed out to Sanchez' group, National has nothing better than Rally to goof up. The club has no money to invest and just makes demands of everyone to support the new "pomp". Added fees, added sanctions, added expenses for questionable benefit. ex: we had to pay the tech guy to look at plans of the Trans-Am car we were building, fly him from Denver to NY and back plus expenses and show him around the shop, otherwise, no homolugation for the car. Did it help the show or make sure the car wasn't illegal, no, it just cost money and a couple days production we could have used. At PRI I asked Kurt where the PRO in Pro Rally was (ie:purse) and his response was - if you can't afford it, stay in Club rallies. Steve Johnson was at STPR and made the long walk to the end of our street and stopped to talk to an obviously underfunded group, he even thanked us for coming and competing - Will things change? Can you run a rally on a concrete airfield?
rz
| Jens | 06-07-2002 01:23 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Section 8 [/i]
[B](Insert just about any quip from Jens Larson here regarding the New World Order) :lol:
LarsEn
[B](Insert just about any quip from Jens Larson here regarding the New World Order) :lol:
LarsEn
| Section 8 | 06-07-2002 01:48 PM |
Whoops! I'll get right on that. ;)
Heh Heh, hopfully someone is not just playing games, and that won't be your only post on the board.
Yes, its 100% overglorified mommymobile, but until I have more than 800 sq ft to call my own, its going to stay that way in my section of undergroud garage. It might be interesting for you to know that you are not the only one with a hairy chested RX7 in these parts of the electronic universe, no power bulge though....
Greg
Heh Heh, hopfully someone is not just playing games, and that won't be your only post on the board.
Yes, its 100% overglorified mommymobile, but until I have more than 800 sq ft to call my own, its going to stay that way in my section of undergroud garage. It might be interesting for you to know that you are not the only one with a hairy chested RX7 in these parts of the electronic universe, no power bulge though....
Greg
| Zahnster | 06-07-2002 03:20 PM |
[QUOTE]Will things change? Can you run a rally on a concrete airfield? [/QUOTE]
Didn't quite quote yourself completly from Special stage so I though I would add this:
[QUOTE]Can you run a rally on a concrete airfield, in a tornado?[/QUOTE] :D
Didn't quite quote yourself completly from Special stage so I though I would add this:
[QUOTE]Can you run a rally on a concrete airfield, in a tornado?[/QUOTE] :D
| 8Complex | 06-07-2002 04:00 PM |
I'm sorry to get into it, and I know I'll piss a few people off by saying it, but rallying as a sport will [i]NOT[/i] make it in the United States.
People like slinging lawsuits, so we limit viewing area and participation.
If you can only see 1 corner at a time... why are you there?!? You might as well take a picture, cause thats about all you'll see until you have to go to the next stage and do the same thing. Granted it's 80 cars that go by, but it's basically the same thing every time.
Try filming one of these events... you need a LOT of cameras and a LOT of different locations to shoot - not to mention that I'm sure you need them all approved for safety reasons. More money, more time.
Try advertising at one of these events... where? In front of the single spectator area? Sure, why not... there isn't anything going on that they can look at for 90% of the time anyway. Just what I like to do, look at ads. :rolleyes:
So the people that are paying to hold this event :
Participants
Advertisers
Costs involved :
Equipment
Location fees including cleaning/restoring these locations after events
Banners, signs, etc.... advertising
Insurance
Medical technicians, Law officials
Strictly from a business standpoint... it just doesn't add up.
Now add in the American people... known to be THE most lazy people on Earth. See above viewpoints on viewing from one location, looking at advertising, then add in other viewpoints of volunteering (the only advantage of which is a better seat, most likely), and also add in getting to the events since they're all held out in the boonies.
The only people that really make money on these events are the local businesses (hotels, resturaunts, etc) and the insurance companies.
Now I really like watching rally, no doubts there, I'm just saying that it's an uphill battle and that the horse that everyone is trying to ride up this hill is actually a 3-legged dog with a fear of heights. *shrug*
People like slinging lawsuits, so we limit viewing area and participation.
If you can only see 1 corner at a time... why are you there?!? You might as well take a picture, cause thats about all you'll see until you have to go to the next stage and do the same thing. Granted it's 80 cars that go by, but it's basically the same thing every time.
Try filming one of these events... you need a LOT of cameras and a LOT of different locations to shoot - not to mention that I'm sure you need them all approved for safety reasons. More money, more time.
Try advertising at one of these events... where? In front of the single spectator area? Sure, why not... there isn't anything going on that they can look at for 90% of the time anyway. Just what I like to do, look at ads. :rolleyes:
So the people that are paying to hold this event :
Participants
Advertisers
Costs involved :
Equipment
Location fees including cleaning/restoring these locations after events
Banners, signs, etc.... advertising
Insurance
Medical technicians, Law officials
Strictly from a business standpoint... it just doesn't add up.
Now add in the American people... known to be THE most lazy people on Earth. See above viewpoints on viewing from one location, looking at advertising, then add in other viewpoints of volunteering (the only advantage of which is a better seat, most likely), and also add in getting to the events since they're all held out in the boonies.
The only people that really make money on these events are the local businesses (hotels, resturaunts, etc) and the insurance companies.
Now I really like watching rally, no doubts there, I'm just saying that it's an uphill battle and that the horse that everyone is trying to ride up this hill is actually a 3-legged dog with a fear of heights. *shrug*
| elgorey | 06-07-2002 04:59 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by 8Complex [/i]
[B]I'm sorry to get into it, and I know I'll piss a few people off by saying it, but rallying as a sport will [i]NOT[/i] make it in the United States.
......[/B][/QUOTE]
but most of what you are saying is on the assumption that to succeed, there needs to be widespread spectator attendance at the event, which I dont neccesarily think is true. You will always have the hardcore set of fans that will brave the elements, but just like WRC, the majority of the fanbase watches the television coverage. (and like you said, americans are lazy)
So the revenue will come from television advertising and broadcast deals. There is already 'buzz' in the media about rallying, as plenty of car manufacturers claim "rally inspired" something or other.
I think that for rallying to catch on at a mainstream level it will be an uphill battle, but not alltogether impossible.
We definately dont need SCCA working [I]against[/I] the sport, as Jon has shown that it does.
Isnt there a FIA run North American rally series? would that be a potential organizing body for american rallying?
[B]I'm sorry to get into it, and I know I'll piss a few people off by saying it, but rallying as a sport will [i]NOT[/i] make it in the United States.
......[/B][/QUOTE]
but most of what you are saying is on the assumption that to succeed, there needs to be widespread spectator attendance at the event, which I dont neccesarily think is true. You will always have the hardcore set of fans that will brave the elements, but just like WRC, the majority of the fanbase watches the television coverage. (and like you said, americans are lazy)
So the revenue will come from television advertising and broadcast deals. There is already 'buzz' in the media about rallying, as plenty of car manufacturers claim "rally inspired" something or other.
I think that for rallying to catch on at a mainstream level it will be an uphill battle, but not alltogether impossible.
We definately dont need SCCA working [I]against[/I] the sport, as Jon has shown that it does.
Isnt there a FIA run North American rally series? would that be a potential organizing body for american rallying?
| WHTWRX | 06-07-2002 05:59 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by 8Complex [/i]
[B]If you can only see 1 corner at a time... why are you there?!? You might as well take a picture, cause thats about all you'll see until you have to go to the next stage and do the same thing. Granted it's 80 cars that go by, but it's basically the same thing every time.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Well, for me, I went to the RIM this year because Subaru told us about it (wife had just bought a WRX wagon). We absolutely loved the event, and next year we'll be going for more than just Saturday.
In fact, the whole event got me so excited that I've bought my own WRX sedan, and I've started participating in SCCA autocross. Soon I'll be attending the local rally school, and in a couple of years my friend and I plan to enter the RIM competition with our own car.
I would hope the rally organizers can get the SCCA to support them more, and if they don't, then I hope they'll put on their own events with whatever local means they need.
Some people just want to participate for the fun of it!
[B]If you can only see 1 corner at a time... why are you there?!? You might as well take a picture, cause thats about all you'll see until you have to go to the next stage and do the same thing. Granted it's 80 cars that go by, but it's basically the same thing every time.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Well, for me, I went to the RIM this year because Subaru told us about it (wife had just bought a WRX wagon). We absolutely loved the event, and next year we'll be going for more than just Saturday.
In fact, the whole event got me so excited that I've bought my own WRX sedan, and I've started participating in SCCA autocross. Soon I'll be attending the local rally school, and in a couple of years my friend and I plan to enter the RIM competition with our own car.
I would hope the rally organizers can get the SCCA to support them more, and if they don't, then I hope they'll put on their own events with whatever local means they need.
Some people just want to participate for the fun of it!
| Pete 97 GS-T | 06-07-2002 06:45 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by 8Complex [/i]
[B]I'm sorry to get into it, ..............up this hill is actually a 3-legged dog with a fear of heights. *shrug* [/B][/QUOTE]
Every person I've introduced to watching rallying over the past 5 years has absolutely loved it. Many people had no idea that we have rally here in the US. The events are tucked away in small towns, and run deep in the woods far away from civilization. Hell, I know someone who lives IN Wellsboro and didn't know what rally was till 2 years ago. Now he is hooked.
It's all a matter of growth. If everyone brings someone new each year, it'll grow and grow. Sure, it won't get big enough where people will be able to make a living off of it.
I'd also rather watch 3 unique corners with 80 cars going by once than watching the same 43 cars taking the same left hand turn 300 times.
There just isn't anything else like it as far as motorsports go. I have no interest in going to a NASCAR race or any other circle track races. I've got a few within 2 hours of me. I have no interest. But yet I drive from Boston all the way to Tennessee to watch a rally.
I'm sure there are many people just like me. It's all a matter of getting them to an event. Sure, it's not easy to go to your first rally by yourself and be able to find your way around. That's why you bring someone new each year. Be their chauffer and tour guide. I've got a friend coming out from St. Louis for the Maine rally. The past 4 rallies I've been to, I've brought someone new and they're going to go to local rallies from now on.
Give it time, it will grow. It will make it. Look at the growth over the past 3 years.
Pete
[url]www.onalimbracing.com[/url]
[B]I'm sorry to get into it, ..............up this hill is actually a 3-legged dog with a fear of heights. *shrug* [/B][/QUOTE]
Every person I've introduced to watching rallying over the past 5 years has absolutely loved it. Many people had no idea that we have rally here in the US. The events are tucked away in small towns, and run deep in the woods far away from civilization. Hell, I know someone who lives IN Wellsboro and didn't know what rally was till 2 years ago. Now he is hooked.
It's all a matter of growth. If everyone brings someone new each year, it'll grow and grow. Sure, it won't get big enough where people will be able to make a living off of it.
I'd also rather watch 3 unique corners with 80 cars going by once than watching the same 43 cars taking the same left hand turn 300 times.
There just isn't anything else like it as far as motorsports go. I have no interest in going to a NASCAR race or any other circle track races. I've got a few within 2 hours of me. I have no interest. But yet I drive from Boston all the way to Tennessee to watch a rally.
I'm sure there are many people just like me. It's all a matter of getting them to an event. Sure, it's not easy to go to your first rally by yourself and be able to find your way around. That's why you bring someone new each year. Be their chauffer and tour guide. I've got a friend coming out from St. Louis for the Maine rally. The past 4 rallies I've been to, I've brought someone new and they're going to go to local rallies from now on.
Give it time, it will grow. It will make it. Look at the growth over the past 3 years.
Pete
[url]www.onalimbracing.com[/url]
| Section 8 | 06-07-2002 06:53 PM |
[QUOTE]I'm sorry to get into it, and I know I'll piss a few people off by saying it, but rallying as a sport will NOT make it in the United States. [/QUOTE]
Canada has a very stable rally series.
Now as far as a fan base (lets ignore everything else for the moment), what is the difference of a few thousand miles? :confused: THey have quite a bit TV coverage as well, that probably helps ALOT. Do you think lawyers are the only reason? Or if rally gains some popularity from the recent and incoming cars fans will emerge. You have to be pretty hardcore to watch a winter rally in Canada... from the side of the road.
There are plenty of opertunities to get "into the woods" so to speak, and away from spectator areas. I drove my car right up to the start of the stage and walked up the road (through the trees) and watched the car with a (then) Speedvison guy and a few other people and a guy with a Howetizer for a camera. Far superior to the 200 or so people crammed in to the area I was first at.
cheeRS,
Greg
Canada has a very stable rally series.
Now as far as a fan base (lets ignore everything else for the moment), what is the difference of a few thousand miles? :confused: THey have quite a bit TV coverage as well, that probably helps ALOT. Do you think lawyers are the only reason? Or if rally gains some popularity from the recent and incoming cars fans will emerge. You have to be pretty hardcore to watch a winter rally in Canada... from the side of the road.
There are plenty of opertunities to get "into the woods" so to speak, and away from spectator areas. I drove my car right up to the start of the stage and walked up the road (through the trees) and watched the car with a (then) Speedvison guy and a few other people and a guy with a Howetizer for a camera. Far superior to the 200 or so people crammed in to the area I was first at.
cheeRS,
Greg
| HIHO | 06-07-2002 11:44 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by 8Complex [/i]
[B]I'm sorry to get into it, and I know I'll piss a few people off by saying it, but rallying as a sport will [i]NOT[/i] make it in the United States.
People like slinging lawsuits, so we limit viewing area and participation.
If you can only see 1 corner at a time... why are you there?!? You might as well take a picture, cause thats about all you'll see until you have to go to the next stage and do the same thing. Granted it's 80 cars that go by, but it's basically the same thing every time.
Try filming one of these events... you need a LOT of cameras and a LOT of different locations to shoot - not to mention that I'm sure you need them all approved for safety reasons. More money, more time.
Try advertising at one of these events... where? In front of the single spectator area? Sure, why not... there isn't anything going on that they can look at for 90% of the time anyway. Just what I like to do, look at ads. :rolleyes:
So the people that are paying to hold this event :
Participants
Advertisers
Costs involved :
Equipment
Location fees including cleaning/restoring these locations after events
Banners, signs, etc.... advertising
Insurance
Medical technicians, Law officials
Strictly from a business standpoint... it just doesn't add up.
Now add in the American people... known to be THE most lazy people on Earth. See above viewpoints on viewing from one location, looking at advertising, then add in other viewpoints of volunteering (the only advantage of which is a better seat, most likely), and also add in getting to the events since they're all held out in the boonies.
The only people that really make money on these events are the local businesses (hotels, resturaunts, etc) and the insurance companies.
Now I really like watching rally, no doubts there, I'm just saying that it's an uphill battle and that the horse that everyone is trying to ride up this hill is actually a 3-legged dog with a fear of heights. *shrug* [/B][/QUOTE]
I am not a NASCAR fan but I have read about its history(which is pretty interesting). People said the same about it. People have a pretty good chance of getting killed at NASCAR events too. As long as there is a displacement cap on engines it will have a chance to get big. The 4 banger is the engine of the present and future. The "Sport Compact" guys will grow up and see how enjoyable rally is.
[B]I'm sorry to get into it, and I know I'll piss a few people off by saying it, but rallying as a sport will [i]NOT[/i] make it in the United States.
People like slinging lawsuits, so we limit viewing area and participation.
If you can only see 1 corner at a time... why are you there?!? You might as well take a picture, cause thats about all you'll see until you have to go to the next stage and do the same thing. Granted it's 80 cars that go by, but it's basically the same thing every time.
Try filming one of these events... you need a LOT of cameras and a LOT of different locations to shoot - not to mention that I'm sure you need them all approved for safety reasons. More money, more time.
Try advertising at one of these events... where? In front of the single spectator area? Sure, why not... there isn't anything going on that they can look at for 90% of the time anyway. Just what I like to do, look at ads. :rolleyes:
So the people that are paying to hold this event :
Participants
Advertisers
Costs involved :
Equipment
Location fees including cleaning/restoring these locations after events
Banners, signs, etc.... advertising
Insurance
Medical technicians, Law officials
Strictly from a business standpoint... it just doesn't add up.
Now add in the American people... known to be THE most lazy people on Earth. See above viewpoints on viewing from one location, looking at advertising, then add in other viewpoints of volunteering (the only advantage of which is a better seat, most likely), and also add in getting to the events since they're all held out in the boonies.
The only people that really make money on these events are the local businesses (hotels, resturaunts, etc) and the insurance companies.
Now I really like watching rally, no doubts there, I'm just saying that it's an uphill battle and that the horse that everyone is trying to ride up this hill is actually a 3-legged dog with a fear of heights. *shrug* [/B][/QUOTE]
I am not a NASCAR fan but I have read about its history(which is pretty interesting). People said the same about it. People have a pretty good chance of getting killed at NASCAR events too. As long as there is a displacement cap on engines it will have a chance to get big. The 4 banger is the engine of the present and future. The "Sport Compact" guys will grow up and see how enjoyable rally is.
| slidewaysmike | 06-07-2002 11:48 PM |
[QUOTE]There are plenty of opertunities to get "into the woods" so to speak, and away from spectator areas. I drove my car right up to the start of the stage and walked up the road (through the trees) and watched the car with a (then) Speedvison guy and a few other people and a guy with a Howetizer for a camera. Far superior to the 200 or so people crammed in to the area I was first at.[/QUOTE]
Not to be a stick in the mud, but that obviously didn't take place in Tennessee did it?
Just being the devil's advocate. Don't hate me.
Mike
Not to be a stick in the mud, but that obviously didn't take place in Tennessee did it?
Just being the devil's advocate. Don't hate me.
Mike
| Pete 97 GS-T | 06-08-2002 07:41 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by slidewaysmike [/i]
[B]
Not to be a stick in the mud, but that obviously didn't take place in Tennessee did it?
Just being the devil's advocate. Don't hate me.
Mike [/B][/QUOTE]
Oh lordie. Don't get me started on Tennessee.....:mad:
[B]
Not to be a stick in the mud, but that obviously didn't take place in Tennessee did it?
Just being the devil's advocate. Don't hate me.
Mike [/B][/QUOTE]
Oh lordie. Don't get me started on Tennessee.....:mad:
| Section 8 | 06-08-2002 10:50 AM |
Nooooooo. Wasn't Tenn. I heard that they were rather ruthless with control of the forest there. :lol: In particular, a certain "Ranger Jane" That might as well had used a club. :lol: :lol: :lol:
This was at the Lake Superior ProRally where we were at the beginning of a stage, about 400 yards in (13 I think, being a dumbass, I didn't look ahead that day and the one after the one we watched was the stage before the infamous tarmac hillclimb, and Richards gaining frequent flyer miles, and getting up the Brock Mountain was impossible when we finally got there).
cheeRS,
Greg
This was at the Lake Superior ProRally where we were at the beginning of a stage, about 400 yards in (13 I think, being a dumbass, I didn't look ahead that day and the one after the one we watched was the stage before the infamous tarmac hillclimb, and Richards gaining frequent flyer miles, and getting up the Brock Mountain was impossible when we finally got there).
cheeRS,
Greg
| johnfelstead | 06-08-2002 03:05 PM |
Rallying in the USA can do nothing but suceed now. It's finally getting exposurer and interest from abroad with drivers like the higgins brothers, mark lovell, richard tuthill etc taking part.
You also have forward thinking guys like Patrick Richard travelling to the UK to compete here too.
You are going through growing pains, every rally country in the world does, the UK goes through crisis on ocasion, these things are allways cyclical. The trend is 100% positive though!
mark my words, Rally in the USA will be huge. How this will evolve, i dont know, but it will happen.
You also have forward thinking guys like Patrick Richard travelling to the UK to compete here too.
You are going through growing pains, every rally country in the world does, the UK goes through crisis on ocasion, these things are allways cyclical. The trend is 100% positive though!
mark my words, Rally in the USA will be huge. How this will evolve, i dont know, but it will happen.
| GoodFinder | 06-08-2002 06:35 PM |
I hope rallying really does take off in the USA. It's great to have alternatives, and many people say that rally drivers are the best overall drivers around.
GoodFinder :)
GoodFinder :)
| foxdeman | 06-08-2002 07:48 PM |
call me crazy but when i was watching speed(vision) the other day i swear i heard something about a mexican rally in the next two or three years.
| Zahnster | 06-09-2002 01:58 AM |
Yep. Mexico has a rally going on and some WRC level drivers are competing in it. It could join the Calender for the WRC in a year or two.
| TOMMY B | 06-09-2002 09:58 AM |
Johnfelstead,
I think you are little off here, Rally in the U.S. will grow but it will never be huge as in Europe. I can tell you, no one in the meda cares about the top drivers from the U.K. or from any other place for that matter. A WRC rally would get some head lines but other then that It will not happen. Rally in the states is Club Based, most works and organizers ralled at the culb level in the past or will rally at the Club level soon. Read some of the posts above from some of us that have been around the seen a few years it might make you see it from a nother point of veiw.
1) No Sponsors = no cash/No prize money
2) All works are Volunteers = Just try to have fun (at work)
3) Dumb Rules = F.I.A. rules, just don't fit here for 1,000 resons.
4) Law Suits = one good mishap it could be all over for good !!
5) $ 1,000.00 entrant fee's = $ 2,500.00 weekend + Long Tow
6) The SCCA view = Pee on Club Rally and take there best Club Rallys and make them Pro Only. (were did the works go ?)
7) The SCCA plan = Pray that some big money Series sponsors will walk therw the door so thay can get rich on this sport. "NOT"
TOMMY B
RALLY ON ////////////////////////
I think you are little off here, Rally in the U.S. will grow but it will never be huge as in Europe. I can tell you, no one in the meda cares about the top drivers from the U.K. or from any other place for that matter. A WRC rally would get some head lines but other then that It will not happen. Rally in the states is Club Based, most works and organizers ralled at the culb level in the past or will rally at the Club level soon. Read some of the posts above from some of us that have been around the seen a few years it might make you see it from a nother point of veiw.
1) No Sponsors = no cash/No prize money
2) All works are Volunteers = Just try to have fun (at work)
3) Dumb Rules = F.I.A. rules, just don't fit here for 1,000 resons.
4) Law Suits = one good mishap it could be all over for good !!
5) $ 1,000.00 entrant fee's = $ 2,500.00 weekend + Long Tow
6) The SCCA view = Pee on Club Rally and take there best Club Rallys and make them Pro Only. (were did the works go ?)
7) The SCCA plan = Pray that some big money Series sponsors will walk therw the door so thay can get rich on this sport. "NOT"
TOMMY B
RALLY ON ////////////////////////
| psoper | 06-09-2002 03:18 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by TOMMY B [/i]
[B]Johnfelstead,
I think you are little off here, Rally in the U.S. will grow but it will never be huge as in Europe. I can tell you, no one in the meda cares about the top drivers from the U.K. or from any other place for that matter. A WRC rally would get some head lines but other then that It will not happen. Rally in the states is Club Based, most works and organizers ralled at the culb level in the past or will rally at the Club level soon. Read some of the posts above from some of us that have been around the seen a few years it might make you see it from a nother point of veiw.
1) No Sponsors = no cash/No prize money
2) All works are Volunteers = Just try to have fun (at work)
3) Dumb Rules = F.I.A. rules, just don't fit here for 1,000 resons.
4) Law Suits = one good mishap it could be all over for good !!
5) $ 1,000.00 entrant fee's = $ 2,500.00 weekend + Long Tow
6) The SCCA view = Pee on Club Rally and take there best Club Rallys and make them Pro Only. (were did the works go ?)
7) The SCCA plan = Pray that some big money Series sponsors will walk therw the door so thay can get rich on this sport. "NOT"
TOMMY B
RALLY ON //////////////////////// [/B][/QUOTE]
At the pace it is going, I agree that we'll probably not see rallying as popular as it is in Europe, simply because the planet will be out of gasoline before then, but going back up your list, I think this move by the RIM organizers might go a long way towards calling attention to things that need fixing;
7) You are right, without TV coverage (beyond speedchannel), and more serious exposure, the sport is not ready to attract the "big" sponsors, and nobody is going to get rich off anything without a lot of hard work. But the right promotion and serious sponsorship could make it profitable for someone to consider as a profession, rather than an expensive hobby. If the national office is not recognizing this and making every possible effort in that direction for their Pro series- not dumping that work on event organizers, I think the PRB is wrong and needs a wake-up call.
6) By making Rim, aguably one of the biggest Pro events of the year- a club only event, the organizers are pointing out that they don't have to put up with the crap they are fed trying to put on a top class "pro" event. The simple fact is that the individuals involved as organizers of that event have done more for the sport of rallying in the state of California- in hosting rally schools, promoting manufacturer involvement and stuff like that than the whole SCCA has done, and they deserve better recognition and support than what they have been getting.
5) Racing isn't cheap in any venue, but as it goes, club rally is a very affordable entry level motorsport, Pro is supposed to be a higher level of competition and should be expected to cost more to participate in.
4) I think the SCCA has done a lot in terms of setting up events with both participant and spectator safety being a very high priority, and lately it has been a relatively safe sport. When the inevitable mishap occurs, having a santioning body with insurance and legal staff that can absorb the liability is the only way the sport will have a chance of surviving, so I think SCCA will be needed in this capacity, regardless of where rallying goes from here- for a while.
3) on FIA rules; At some level, if americans want an FIA event here, they will need to re-learn how FIA rules apply, having it phased in to the highest current level of domestic rallying- the SCCA ProRally series makes good sense to me, I don't see your argument there.
2) on staffing and volunteers; If enough volunteers show up, and are adequately coordinated and taken care of, it can be a lot of fun, I've volunteered and worked controls on a couple of events and it does matter how crews are treated, but by and large I find it to be a fun way to spend a weekend-just ask some of the people that have been volunteering at Rim for years.
1) and finally, serious sponsorship comes from corporations seeing that a sport provides mass exposure. Both Club and Pro rally as the SCCA are pushing them are growing dramatically in terms of grass roots support, but it is not getting out beyond the niche market that seeks it out, and until that starts happening you are right, the sport will never reach it's potential.
But one or two more years of WRX's and Evo's coming stateside and selling like hotcakes might be enough to turn the tides, so I wouldn't rule it out yet.
For any club run sport, I think it all boils down to "what do the participants expect?"
I know I will never have the talent and skills that it would take to be competative at the WRC level, or even the seed 1or 2 SCCA pro level for that matter, but I do really enjoy hauling a** on unpaved roads, so I see club rally as about as far as I expect I will go in rallying, frankly, at that level I am psyched that Rim will be a "club only" event.
And as far as the pro series goes, once it outgrows the venues and permits, there will be little choice but to limit entries, and we are starting to see this across the country. I would expect that club and pro will eventually need to be seperated where one is a feeder series to the other, much as is done in other countries.
I think we all should take a minute to think about how great it is to be in the sport now when the top drivers in the country run along side the rank beginners, because it certainly won't be that way forever, regardless of who takes it to the next level.
[B]Johnfelstead,
I think you are little off here, Rally in the U.S. will grow but it will never be huge as in Europe. I can tell you, no one in the meda cares about the top drivers from the U.K. or from any other place for that matter. A WRC rally would get some head lines but other then that It will not happen. Rally in the states is Club Based, most works and organizers ralled at the culb level in the past or will rally at the Club level soon. Read some of the posts above from some of us that have been around the seen a few years it might make you see it from a nother point of veiw.
1) No Sponsors = no cash/No prize money
2) All works are Volunteers = Just try to have fun (at work)
3) Dumb Rules = F.I.A. rules, just don't fit here for 1,000 resons.
4) Law Suits = one good mishap it could be all over for good !!
5) $ 1,000.00 entrant fee's = $ 2,500.00 weekend + Long Tow
6) The SCCA view = Pee on Club Rally and take there best Club Rallys and make them Pro Only. (were did the works go ?)
7) The SCCA plan = Pray that some big money Series sponsors will walk therw the door so thay can get rich on this sport. "NOT"
TOMMY B
RALLY ON //////////////////////// [/B][/QUOTE]
At the pace it is going, I agree that we'll probably not see rallying as popular as it is in Europe, simply because the planet will be out of gasoline before then, but going back up your list, I think this move by the RIM organizers might go a long way towards calling attention to things that need fixing;
7) You are right, without TV coverage (beyond speedchannel), and more serious exposure, the sport is not ready to attract the "big" sponsors, and nobody is going to get rich off anything without a lot of hard work. But the right promotion and serious sponsorship could make it profitable for someone to consider as a profession, rather than an expensive hobby. If the national office is not recognizing this and making every possible effort in that direction for their Pro series- not dumping that work on event organizers, I think the PRB is wrong and needs a wake-up call.
6) By making Rim, aguably one of the biggest Pro events of the year- a club only event, the organizers are pointing out that they don't have to put up with the crap they are fed trying to put on a top class "pro" event. The simple fact is that the individuals involved as organizers of that event have done more for the sport of rallying in the state of California- in hosting rally schools, promoting manufacturer involvement and stuff like that than the whole SCCA has done, and they deserve better recognition and support than what they have been getting.
5) Racing isn't cheap in any venue, but as it goes, club rally is a very affordable entry level motorsport, Pro is supposed to be a higher level of competition and should be expected to cost more to participate in.
4) I think the SCCA has done a lot in terms of setting up events with both participant and spectator safety being a very high priority, and lately it has been a relatively safe sport. When the inevitable mishap occurs, having a santioning body with insurance and legal staff that can absorb the liability is the only way the sport will have a chance of surviving, so I think SCCA will be needed in this capacity, regardless of where rallying goes from here- for a while.
3) on FIA rules; At some level, if americans want an FIA event here, they will need to re-learn how FIA rules apply, having it phased in to the highest current level of domestic rallying- the SCCA ProRally series makes good sense to me, I don't see your argument there.
2) on staffing and volunteers; If enough volunteers show up, and are adequately coordinated and taken care of, it can be a lot of fun, I've volunteered and worked controls on a couple of events and it does matter how crews are treated, but by and large I find it to be a fun way to spend a weekend-just ask some of the people that have been volunteering at Rim for years.
1) and finally, serious sponsorship comes from corporations seeing that a sport provides mass exposure. Both Club and Pro rally as the SCCA are pushing them are growing dramatically in terms of grass roots support, but it is not getting out beyond the niche market that seeks it out, and until that starts happening you are right, the sport will never reach it's potential.
But one or two more years of WRX's and Evo's coming stateside and selling like hotcakes might be enough to turn the tides, so I wouldn't rule it out yet.
For any club run sport, I think it all boils down to "what do the participants expect?"
I know I will never have the talent and skills that it would take to be competative at the WRC level, or even the seed 1or 2 SCCA pro level for that matter, but I do really enjoy hauling a** on unpaved roads, so I see club rally as about as far as I expect I will go in rallying, frankly, at that level I am psyched that Rim will be a "club only" event.
And as far as the pro series goes, once it outgrows the venues and permits, there will be little choice but to limit entries, and we are starting to see this across the country. I would expect that club and pro will eventually need to be seperated where one is a feeder series to the other, much as is done in other countries.
I think we all should take a minute to think about how great it is to be in the sport now when the top drivers in the country run along side the rank beginners, because it certainly won't be that way forever, regardless of who takes it to the next level.
| Jon Bogert | 06-09-2002 04:08 PM |
Addressing a couple of points...
TV: The biggest problem we have is that our TV coverage is utterly pathetic comparied to the WRC coverage. We now have drivers who are (allowing for the differences in machinery and pace notes) within ten percent of WRC drivers. They're certainly fast enough and sideways enough and airborne enough to wow a 15 year old watching Speed Channel. We just need a competent production crew with enough budget to put cameras where they need to be and enough skill to edit the footage together in a compelling, thrilling story.
FIA rules: Come on folks, how about if we wait until you can buy a homologated car (really homolgated, not the WRX faux-homologation) in this country before we try adopting FIA rules. Even then, only Subaru and Mitsu currently make Group N4 cars. Wooo hooo, how exciting is that? "Was that the silver EVO with the red stripes or the white EVO with the red checkers? Yawn!" If you want to allow Group N cars to run here, make them compete with well-prepared U.S. sold cars of similar speed potential in a class accessible to anyone--not just those with expertise in illegal imports or cajoling SCCA officials.
Sponsorship: Squeezing dollars out of Subaru and Hyundai is clearly not the path to success here. Do you realize that the SCCA officials demand that the organizers pay for their accomodations? No wonder they're pissed off! Step 1: Get a promoter in there who can go toe to toe with corporate marketing weenies in expensive Italian loafers. Step 2: Find a [i]real[/i] sponsor--like Coke or Nike or Marlboro-- who can spend a million bucks with a Junior Mktg VP's signature. Step 3: You dictate terms to participating manufacturers, not the other way around: "Subaru, you want to play here? You bring in 500 STi RAs to the U.S. and, by the way, you can sell them at cost to licensed SCCA rally drivers. You want to put up your cute little tent at Rim? Great, we need t-shirts, gas money and box lunches for all the volunteer workers who make this event happen--you can sponsor that, too."
We don't [i]NEED[/i] to be big-time here, we have plenty of fun and have (or had, until the current BS started) plenty of events as it is. We shouldn't be grabbing our ankles to accomodate a misguided marketing plan, a capricious manufacturer, or anyone else. This is the problem: the plan seems to be "give up everything first, then maybe you'll get more back later". :mad:
TV: The biggest problem we have is that our TV coverage is utterly pathetic comparied to the WRC coverage. We now have drivers who are (allowing for the differences in machinery and pace notes) within ten percent of WRC drivers. They're certainly fast enough and sideways enough and airborne enough to wow a 15 year old watching Speed Channel. We just need a competent production crew with enough budget to put cameras where they need to be and enough skill to edit the footage together in a compelling, thrilling story.
FIA rules: Come on folks, how about if we wait until you can buy a homologated car (really homolgated, not the WRX faux-homologation) in this country before we try adopting FIA rules. Even then, only Subaru and Mitsu currently make Group N4 cars. Wooo hooo, how exciting is that? "Was that the silver EVO with the red stripes or the white EVO with the red checkers? Yawn!" If you want to allow Group N cars to run here, make them compete with well-prepared U.S. sold cars of similar speed potential in a class accessible to anyone--not just those with expertise in illegal imports or cajoling SCCA officials.
Sponsorship: Squeezing dollars out of Subaru and Hyundai is clearly not the path to success here. Do you realize that the SCCA officials demand that the organizers pay for their accomodations? No wonder they're pissed off! Step 1: Get a promoter in there who can go toe to toe with corporate marketing weenies in expensive Italian loafers. Step 2: Find a [i]real[/i] sponsor--like Coke or Nike or Marlboro-- who can spend a million bucks with a Junior Mktg VP's signature. Step 3: You dictate terms to participating manufacturers, not the other way around: "Subaru, you want to play here? You bring in 500 STi RAs to the U.S. and, by the way, you can sell them at cost to licensed SCCA rally drivers. You want to put up your cute little tent at Rim? Great, we need t-shirts, gas money and box lunches for all the volunteer workers who make this event happen--you can sponsor that, too."
We don't [i]NEED[/i] to be big-time here, we have plenty of fun and have (or had, until the current BS started) plenty of events as it is. We shouldn't be grabbing our ankles to accomodate a misguided marketing plan, a capricious manufacturer, or anyone else. This is the problem: the plan seems to be "give up everything first, then maybe you'll get more back later". :mad:
| iceweazel | 06-09-2002 11:12 PM |
>rallying as a sport will NOT make it in the United States.
What planet are you on, 8?
Rally in the USA as a performance sport is probably older than
YOU are! We ran 24 _YEARS_ of an event in Ohio until 97' before
it stopped. There's no one saying "stop rally!" (well except
maybe Jens, but he has a slightly different arguement about
sprints in the woods)
Now will it ever have its own channel like Nascar? Heck no.
But whats "make it"? Its been made. What number was
the latest STPR? 25? Heck the CHARITY rally there is 13 yrs.
old!
Rally will continue in the US. The real problem is
that change has come, and not always in a good way. Denver offers little to organizers and wants much back in return.
There is so much change and so much growth in the SCCA
rally program, that the lack of changes from the management
may have finally caught up with them. (rally is the fastest
growing membership program in the SCCA.)
>SUBARU IS ENVOLVED AT THE GRASSROOTS LEVEL
bwahahahaha!! Thats why they pulled all their "club only"
event sponsorships last year, right? I know several organizers
around the US who'd like to tackle THAT issue with ya'.
Subaru is a company, and they will spend $ where it will do
the most good for them. Don't be deluded. It's just about
advertising and marketing for them.
This whole Rim deal and the related issues belong on SpecialStage or the SCCA.org pages, not here anyway.
Its an organizers/management issue that has been brewing
for a while. Sure it hints at many things, but it boils down to
:"why the heck should we put up with extra BS from Denver
when we get nothing back in return for being a "pro" event.?"
With clubrally events having to set car limits now, and
being booked up, why bother with all the extra Pro nonsense?
Trust me on this one. Been spending lots of time over the
last year talking with organizers, trying to plan the return
of Sunriser. I see exactly what some of the problems are.
Ed
What planet are you on, 8?
Rally in the USA as a performance sport is probably older than
YOU are! We ran 24 _YEARS_ of an event in Ohio until 97' before
it stopped. There's no one saying "stop rally!" (well except
maybe Jens, but he has a slightly different arguement about
sprints in the woods)
Now will it ever have its own channel like Nascar? Heck no.
But whats "make it"? Its been made. What number was
the latest STPR? 25? Heck the CHARITY rally there is 13 yrs.
old!
Rally will continue in the US. The real problem is
that change has come, and not always in a good way. Denver offers little to organizers and wants much back in return.
There is so much change and so much growth in the SCCA
rally program, that the lack of changes from the management
may have finally caught up with them. (rally is the fastest
growing membership program in the SCCA.)
>SUBARU IS ENVOLVED AT THE GRASSROOTS LEVEL
bwahahahaha!! Thats why they pulled all their "club only"
event sponsorships last year, right? I know several organizers
around the US who'd like to tackle THAT issue with ya'.
Subaru is a company, and they will spend $ where it will do
the most good for them. Don't be deluded. It's just about
advertising and marketing for them.
This whole Rim deal and the related issues belong on SpecialStage or the SCCA.org pages, not here anyway.
Its an organizers/management issue that has been brewing
for a while. Sure it hints at many things, but it boils down to
:"why the heck should we put up with extra BS from Denver
when we get nothing back in return for being a "pro" event.?"
With clubrally events having to set car limits now, and
being booked up, why bother with all the extra Pro nonsense?
Trust me on this one. Been spending lots of time over the
last year talking with organizers, trying to plan the return
of Sunriser. I see exactly what some of the problems are.
Ed
| Thug | 06-10-2002 11:56 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Jon Bogert [/i]
[B]Addressing a couple of points...
Sponsorship: Squeezing dollars out of Subaru and Hyundai is clearly not the path to success here. Do you realize that the SCCA officials demand that the organizers pay for their accomodations? No wonder they're pissed off! Step 1: Get a promoter in there who can go toe to toe with corporate marketing weenies in expensive Italian loafers. Step 2: Find a [i]real[/i] sponsor--like Coke or Nike or Marlboro-- who can spend a million bucks with a Junior Mktg VP's signature. Step 3: You dictate terms to participating manufacturers, not the other way around: "Subaru, you want to play here? You bring in 500 STi RAs to the U.S. and, by the way, you can sell them at cost to licensed SCCA rally drivers. You want to put up your cute little tent at Rim? Great, we need t-shirts, gas money and box lunches for all the volunteer workers who make this event happen--you can sponsor that, too."
[/B][/QUOTE]
This is exactly why need a company(like the FIA) to run the rallies, not a silly non-profit organization like the SCCA. An actual for-profit company will be able to hire sales people who can sell the marketing idea to top level execs at big companies like Pepsi, Marlboro, Gillette etc.
[B]Addressing a couple of points...
Sponsorship: Squeezing dollars out of Subaru and Hyundai is clearly not the path to success here. Do you realize that the SCCA officials demand that the organizers pay for their accomodations? No wonder they're pissed off! Step 1: Get a promoter in there who can go toe to toe with corporate marketing weenies in expensive Italian loafers. Step 2: Find a [i]real[/i] sponsor--like Coke or Nike or Marlboro-- who can spend a million bucks with a Junior Mktg VP's signature. Step 3: You dictate terms to participating manufacturers, not the other way around: "Subaru, you want to play here? You bring in 500 STi RAs to the U.S. and, by the way, you can sell them at cost to licensed SCCA rally drivers. You want to put up your cute little tent at Rim? Great, we need t-shirts, gas money and box lunches for all the volunteer workers who make this event happen--you can sponsor that, too."
[/B][/QUOTE]
This is exactly why need a company(like the FIA) to run the rallies, not a silly non-profit organization like the SCCA. An actual for-profit company will be able to hire sales people who can sell the marketing idea to top level execs at big companies like Pepsi, Marlboro, Gillette etc.
| Zahnster | 06-10-2002 12:38 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by y2k4door [/i]
[B]
...who can sell the marketing idea to top level execs at big companies like Pepsi, Marlboro, Gillette etc. [/B][/QUOTE]
Gilette - When you need the absolute closest shave on your tires for Tarmac events.
[B]
...who can sell the marketing idea to top level execs at big companies like Pepsi, Marlboro, Gillette etc. [/B][/QUOTE]
Gilette - When you need the absolute closest shave on your tires for Tarmac events.
| Jon Bogert | 06-10-2002 12:44 PM |
Imodium - For when you have that flat-over-crest-into-two-left-tightens-double-caution-exposure feeling...
| Section 8 | 06-10-2002 12:54 PM |
Jon-
You might want to market something a little more proactive to the club rally participants for that situation.
Like Depends "under garments". :lol:
Greg
You might want to market something a little more proactive to the club rally participants for that situation.
Like Depends "under garments". :lol:
Greg
| Thug | 06-10-2002 03:12 PM |
Verizon Wireless - So you can call your wife from the woods and tell her you just stuffed the rally car you paid $30K for. :)
| Jens | 06-10-2002 08:48 PM |
Back when I was running ProRally in 1977 I seem to remember all these same comments about how good rallying was going to get.
I guess I'll wait another 25 years before I tell you you're wrong.
I guess I'll wait another 25 years before I tell you you're wrong.
| jmullan | 06-11-2002 02:51 AM |
Argh. I think that this is why I left rally-l a couple of years ago.
| Thug | 06-11-2002 07:02 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Jens [/i]
[B]Back when I was running ProRally in 1977 I seem to remember all these same comments about how good rallying was going to get.
I guess I'll wait another 25 years before I tell you you're wrong. [/B][/QUOTE]
You probably also heard that we'd never have a major sponsor like Subaru or Hyundai. Oh that's right, in 1977 neither Subaru nor Hyundai had a respectable presence in the US.
[B]Back when I was running ProRally in 1977 I seem to remember all these same comments about how good rallying was going to get.
I guess I'll wait another 25 years before I tell you you're wrong. [/B][/QUOTE]
You probably also heard that we'd never have a major sponsor like Subaru or Hyundai. Oh that's right, in 1977 neither Subaru nor Hyundai had a respectable presence in the US.
| HIHO | 06-11-2002 09:26 AM |
"Back when I was running ProRally"
That was the past. You know the dark ages for American car consumers. Get out of the past and embrace the future. ProPally can make it here. The import scene will evolve and look for other ways to have fun.
That was the past. You know the dark ages for American car consumers. Get out of the past and embrace the future. ProPally can make it here. The import scene will evolve and look for other ways to have fun.
| Jens | 06-11-2002 09:42 AM |
>>>
You probably also heard that we'd never have a major sponsor like Subaru or Hyundai. Oh that's right, in 1977 neither Subaru nor Hyundai had a respectable presence in the US.
<<<
We had Cooper Tires. In subsequent years there were other national sponsors that came and went.
Subaru and Hyundai are sponsoring themselves; they are not sponsoring ProRally. There has not been a national ProRally sponsor since 1999.
As for the gentleman who left Rally-L two years ago... don't worry I won't be staying in this Forum which is devoted to Subaru (not rallying). I warned everyone for 3 years about the NWO. No one wanted to listen (some still don't). Now one of the premiere ProRally events has quit (read their reasons). This was not the last shot fired; it is the first. If you want to discuss this further you have my e-mail address.
Subaru makes good cars; I have one, but that does not mean I blindly accept any advertising spin from Subaru or SCCA.
You probably also heard that we'd never have a major sponsor like Subaru or Hyundai. Oh that's right, in 1977 neither Subaru nor Hyundai had a respectable presence in the US.
<<<
We had Cooper Tires. In subsequent years there were other national sponsors that came and went.
Subaru and Hyundai are sponsoring themselves; they are not sponsoring ProRally. There has not been a national ProRally sponsor since 1999.
As for the gentleman who left Rally-L two years ago... don't worry I won't be staying in this Forum which is devoted to Subaru (not rallying). I warned everyone for 3 years about the NWO. No one wanted to listen (some still don't). Now one of the premiere ProRally events has quit (read their reasons). This was not the last shot fired; it is the first. If you want to discuss this further you have my e-mail address.
Subaru makes good cars; I have one, but that does not mean I blindly accept any advertising spin from Subaru or SCCA.
| jmullan | 06-11-2002 03:12 PM |
Let me rephrase that. Jens is the reason that I quit rally-l. Er- it was the huge amounts of traffic that I didn't care to keep up with anymore.
Rim is pissed that they can't make any money. I would be too, if I were on an organizing committee for a ProRally.
Rim is pissed that they can't make any money. I would be too, if I were on an organizing committee for a ProRally.
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