| chaddeus | 08-31-2006 05:33 PM |
Shifting: Gravel Drivers vs Track Drivers
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I am not sure but I find that gravel rally drivers leg movements tends to be more complicated that track drivers.
I see Patrick Richards rally video and saw the amazing leg work. I never see that kind of leg work on drivers driving on a tarmac. He also upshift without pressing the clutch which seems so easy for them. I just got no guts doing that on my baby..
So why the difference? Is Rally driving harder than track driving?
- Charles
I see Patrick Richards rally video and saw the amazing leg work. I never see that kind of leg work on drivers driving on a tarmac. He also upshift without pressing the clutch which seems so easy for them. I just got no guts doing that on my baby..
So why the difference? Is Rally driving harder than track driving?
- Charles
| vlady | 08-31-2006 05:38 PM |
Upshifting without a clutch is reserved for dog engagement trannies. You need to look around and find some more videos of better track divers. Some of them have insane foot movements. Especially when they're heel/toe'ing going through the corners. Don't get me wrong, Pat is a fantastic driver, but there are better track and rally drivers out there.
| fliz | 08-31-2006 05:39 PM |
[QUOTE=chaddeus;15092071]Is Rally driving harder than track driving?
- Charles[/QUOTE]
short answer - yes.
On the clutchless shifting...IIRC Pat runs a dogbox transmission, and replaces it quite often. Don't try that on your street trans.
- Charles[/QUOTE]
short answer - yes.
On the clutchless shifting...IIRC Pat runs a dogbox transmission, and replaces it quite often. Don't try that on your street trans.
| trhoppe | 08-31-2006 05:45 PM |
I also agree. Its definetly easier to go when you know whats ahead and you have static track conditions.
-Tom
-Tom
| Sporqster | 08-31-2006 05:57 PM |
I used to have a Geo Metro that I sold for $400 - as long as you matched RPM's reasonably well (like w/in 200 RPM or so) didn't need a clutch at all. Discovered this when the clutch broke, and I had to shift without it, then continued to just for fun.
So in a way my POS metro (with an unexagerated 42mpg, damn miss that POS) had a sportier tranny than the subie...:rolleyes:
So in a way my POS metro (with an unexagerated 42mpg, damn miss that POS) had a sportier tranny than the subie...:rolleyes:
| M. Hurst | 08-31-2006 06:03 PM |
Even with the dog box, last weekend I was instucted by the boss (dch) to use the clutch on up shifts (not on downshifts). The only time I upshifted w/out the clutch was while turning and accelerating at the same time. Example 4L into 5R, I'm using my left foot to correct my line, and "trick" the active diff, while accelerating and upshifting 4-5. Taking the left foot off the brake to use the clutch in that situation would make the car run wide.
...of course, 1 rally with a dog box, and I'm an expert.:lol:
I've done both (Hoppe's seen me on a road course), I'd say fighting for 1/100 of a second road racing is just as difficult as rally...but it's much easier to bust your ass in a rally car.
...of course, 1 rally with a dog box, and I'm an expert.:lol:
I've done both (Hoppe's seen me on a road course), I'd say fighting for 1/100 of a second road racing is just as difficult as rally...but it's much easier to bust your ass in a rally car.
| vlady | 08-31-2006 06:09 PM |
So you were told to use a clutch on upshifts but not on downshifts? That's the first time I've heard that about a dog box...
| M. Hurst | 08-31-2006 06:12 PM |
[QUOTE=vlady;15092566]So you were told to use a clutch on upshifts but not on downshifts? That's the first time I've heard that about a dog box...[/QUOTE]
Yes..we're doing all of the braking with the left foot, so downshifting clutchless.
Yes..we're doing all of the braking with the left foot, so downshifting clutchless.
| afpdl | 08-31-2006 06:15 PM |
[QUOTE=Sporqster;15092397]I used to have a Geo Metro that I sold for $400 - as long as you matched RPM's reasonably well (like w/in 200 RPM or so) didn't need a clutch at all. Discovered this when the clutch broke, and I had to shift without it, then continued to just for fun.
So in a way my POS metro (with an unexagerated 42mpg, damn miss that POS) had a sportier tranny than the subie...:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
If by shift without the clutch you mean lift off throttle, move shifter to neutral, let rpms fall and then select the next gear when rpms match up then damn near any tranny can do that including your subaru. Its the hard upshifts where you just blip the throttle that you need a dogbox for.
And if a track series allows the proper transmissions you will see track drivers doing clutchless upshifts.
So in a way my POS metro (with an unexagerated 42mpg, damn miss that POS) had a sportier tranny than the subie...:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
If by shift without the clutch you mean lift off throttle, move shifter to neutral, let rpms fall and then select the next gear when rpms match up then damn near any tranny can do that including your subaru. Its the hard upshifts where you just blip the throttle that you need a dogbox for.
And if a track series allows the proper transmissions you will see track drivers doing clutchless upshifts.
| trhoppe | 08-31-2006 06:19 PM |
[QUOTE=M. Hurst;15092493]
I've done both (Hoppe's seen me on a road course), I'd say fighting for 1/100 of a second road racing is just as difficult as rally...but it's much easier to bust your ass in a rally car.[/QUOTE]
Yea, but your driving on a road course has about the same slip angle as your driving on dirt :lol: :banana: (it was fast ;) )
-Tom
I've done both (Hoppe's seen me on a road course), I'd say fighting for 1/100 of a second road racing is just as difficult as rally...but it's much easier to bust your ass in a rally car.[/QUOTE]
Yea, but your driving on a road course has about the same slip angle as your driving on dirt :lol: :banana: (it was fast ;) )
-Tom
| fliz | 08-31-2006 06:21 PM |
[QUOTE=M. Hurst;15092589]Yes..we're doing all of the braking with the left foot, so downshifting clutchless.[/QUOTE]
I always thought you still needed the clutch on downshifts, but could bang out upshifts in the dogbox. Although, I guess if you're concerned about shock loads, there isn't much when you're not on the throttle.
*Goes to check prices of VW dogboxes*
I always thought you still needed the clutch on downshifts, but could bang out upshifts in the dogbox. Although, I guess if you're concerned about shock loads, there isn't much when you're not on the throttle.
*Goes to check prices of VW dogboxes*
| trhoppe | 08-31-2006 06:23 PM |
You can downshift a non-dogbox synchro trans clutchless when you match the revs :)
-Tom
-Tom
| badboiWRX | 08-31-2006 06:26 PM |
[QUOTE=chaddeus;15092071]I am not sure but I find that gravel rally drivers leg movements tends to be more complicated that track drivers.
I see Patrick Richards rally video and saw the amazing leg work. I never see that kind of leg work on drivers driving on a tarmac. He also upshift without pressing the clutch which seems so easy for them. I just got no guts doing that on my baby..
So why the difference? Is Rally driving harder than track driving?
- Charles[/QUOTE]
Driving in gravel you have to be ready for whatever happens cuz its unpredictable. You notice Richard can't hold the steering wheel steady, but thats just out of habit from driving on gravel. Similarly the footwork is frantic as well.
Track driving is much more relaxed because its more predictable. Even on record breaking time attack cars, everything is simple. The only place where you see such frantic footwork is with the drifters who are also on the edge of control like in rally.
I see Patrick Richards rally video and saw the amazing leg work. I never see that kind of leg work on drivers driving on a tarmac. He also upshift without pressing the clutch which seems so easy for them. I just got no guts doing that on my baby..
So why the difference? Is Rally driving harder than track driving?
- Charles[/QUOTE]
Driving in gravel you have to be ready for whatever happens cuz its unpredictable. You notice Richard can't hold the steering wheel steady, but thats just out of habit from driving on gravel. Similarly the footwork is frantic as well.
Track driving is much more relaxed because its more predictable. Even on record breaking time attack cars, everything is simple. The only place where you see such frantic footwork is with the drifters who are also on the edge of control like in rally.
| fliz | 08-31-2006 06:34 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe;15092704]You can downshift a non-dogbox synchro trans clutchless when you match the revs :)
-Tom[/QUOTE]
yeah, but I have enough trouble keeping the VW running...I don't need to take risks like that with a stock box.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
yeah, but I have enough trouble keeping the VW running...I don't need to take risks like that with a stock box.
| trhoppe | 08-31-2006 06:37 PM |
methinks the dogbox would cost 3X the car price :lol:
| fliz | 08-31-2006 06:44 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe;15092888]methinks the dogbox would cost 3X the car price :lol:[/QUOTE]
:lol: I'd hope not...I paid way too much for the car. ;)
:lol: I'd hope not...I paid way too much for the car. ;)
| solo-x | 08-31-2006 11:02 PM |
if you're using a clutch while upshifting a dogbox you aren't hurting anything, but you aren't getting the full benefit of a dogbox. you probably aren't saving on wear either. the easiest way to wear out a dogbox? drive it soft. the dog rings wear when they are between shifts. shift slow, wear the dogs out. bang shifts harder then you bang the old lady, a dog box will last a long time.
nate
nate
| chaddeus | 08-31-2006 11:49 PM |
I just wonder why dont track drivers also use those kind of gear box and learn those kind of footwork and dont use left foot braking
- Charles
- Charles
| GarySheehan | 09-01-2006 12:17 AM |
Dogboxes are not legal in many racing series. Depends on the sanctioning body.
I liked the post about roadracing being "simple" and only the drifters and rally drivers are at the edge of control. :lol:
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
I liked the post about roadracing being "simple" and only the drifters and rally drivers are at the edge of control. :lol:
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| Subie Gal | 09-01-2006 12:28 AM |
[QUOTE=GarySheehan;15096350]I liked the post about roadracing being "simple" and only the drifters and rally drivers are at the edge of control. :lol:
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url][/QUOTE]
oh Come on Gary... u know it's True :lol: ;)
(hey let's play car swap.... <----that would be goof for a laugh ! :D )
with much respect to Mr Sheehan,
Ms. Jamie :D
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url][/QUOTE]
oh Come on Gary... u know it's True :lol: ;)
(hey let's play car swap.... <----that would be goof for a laugh ! :D )
with much respect to Mr Sheehan,
Ms. Jamie :D
| RB5 Clone | 09-01-2006 10:33 AM |
part of the difference is that rally roads have constantly changing surfaces and grip, so that drivers are forever balancing and re-balancing (and re- re-balancing) the car. tightly linked turns with lots of crests complicate the grip equation even more, and lead to some pretty fancy footwork. then you have the fact that rally drivers usually haven't seen or driven this particular bit of road before...so they are largely "making it up as they go along."
track driving places a premium on smoothness and consistency, and the drivers become intimately familar with every nuance of every turn. if they're wrestling with their car the way a rally driver does, they're probably screwing up, big-time. but as road racers sheehan and hoppe maintain, rally drivers ain't the only ones with their butts hung WAY out there.
Dave G
track driving places a premium on smoothness and consistency, and the drivers become intimately familar with every nuance of every turn. if they're wrestling with their car the way a rally driver does, they're probably screwing up, big-time. but as road racers sheehan and hoppe maintain, rally drivers ain't the only ones with their butts hung WAY out there.
Dave G
| dunk | 09-01-2006 10:59 AM |
No-one has mentioned one of the main differences between rally and wheel to wheel road racing. The traffic.
Duncan
Duncan
| Assassin4457 | 09-01-2006 11:00 AM |
Harder ? Definitely, remember, in both track and rally you have to go fast, but on a track you have perfect (or near perfect) conditions to drive on. On a rally, they give u some of the hardest roads in the world, and say "race"
| chaddeus | 09-01-2006 03:13 PM |
Actually, I do understand that both are very hard. Even the most simplest thing in live can be hard if you are competing to be perfect. Everyone can drive in the track but being the best of the best is the hardest. If someone can run the track at 2m, someone else can do it in 1m 59s and others will do it in 1m58s. The hardest part is actually trying to push and gain that what so called an impossible 0.001s and be consistent in it.
For rally drivers, its just another kind of hard. Its like asking who is better. A marathon runner or a distance swimmer. A marathon runner may not do well in swimming and swimmer may not do well in running.
As Sebastian Loeb said last time, Rally Drivers are very adaptive to different condition. Track drivers are very precise.
- Charles
For rally drivers, its just another kind of hard. Its like asking who is better. A marathon runner or a distance swimmer. A marathon runner may not do well in swimming and swimmer may not do well in running.
As Sebastian Loeb said last time, Rally Drivers are very adaptive to different condition. Track drivers are very precise.
- Charles
| RB5 Clone | 09-01-2006 03:35 PM |
"Better?" "BEST???" it basically boils down to what a driver thinks is "normal"
we had our rally cars on display at a motorsports show one time, and these circle track guys came up to check out the Scoobies. They watched some of our onboard video and said, "you guys are fricken NUTS! rocks, tree, ditches, snow, mud, ice...and you never seen these roads before??!! Too too crazy." They left shaking their heads.
And this was from guys who regularly drive door to door at 150+mph, bump-draft in traffic, punt each other into the walls, T-bone spun cars, etc etc...:rolleyes:
So who da hail KNOWS who's "best" ???
call it a circular argument.
Dave G
we had our rally cars on display at a motorsports show one time, and these circle track guys came up to check out the Scoobies. They watched some of our onboard video and said, "you guys are fricken NUTS! rocks, tree, ditches, snow, mud, ice...and you never seen these roads before??!! Too too crazy." They left shaking their heads.
And this was from guys who regularly drive door to door at 150+mph, bump-draft in traffic, punt each other into the walls, T-bone spun cars, etc etc...:rolleyes:
So who da hail KNOWS who's "best" ???
call it a circular argument.
Dave G
| fliz | 09-01-2006 04:53 PM |
[QUOTE=RB5 Clone;15103504]"Better?" "BEST???" it basically boils down to what a driver thinks is "normal"
we had our rally cars on display at a motorsports show one time, and these circle track guys came up to check out the Scoobies. They watched some of our onboard video and said, "you guys are fricken NUTS! rocks, tree, ditches, snow, mud, ice...and you never seen these roads before??!! Too too crazy." They left shaking their heads.
And this was from guys who regularly drive door to door at 150+mph, bump-draft in traffic, punt each other into the walls, T-bone spun cars, etc etc...:rolleyes:
So who da hail KNOWS who's "best" ???
call it a circular argument.
Dave G[/QUOTE]
To that end...after my first track day I thought "wow that was fun. lots of speed, not to dangerous" Even though I probably hit 110 on all seasons in the rain.
After my first rally stage (practice stage at Ojibwe last Thursday), I thought "holy ****, what was I thinking? I must have been insane when I bought this car and decided to rally it."
It got better after a while...but I still think you AWD guys are insane. The roads are scary at 70-90, I can't imagine what they're like at 110.
we had our rally cars on display at a motorsports show one time, and these circle track guys came up to check out the Scoobies. They watched some of our onboard video and said, "you guys are fricken NUTS! rocks, tree, ditches, snow, mud, ice...and you never seen these roads before??!! Too too crazy." They left shaking their heads.
And this was from guys who regularly drive door to door at 150+mph, bump-draft in traffic, punt each other into the walls, T-bone spun cars, etc etc...:rolleyes:
So who da hail KNOWS who's "best" ???
call it a circular argument.
Dave G[/QUOTE]
To that end...after my first track day I thought "wow that was fun. lots of speed, not to dangerous" Even though I probably hit 110 on all seasons in the rain.
After my first rally stage (practice stage at Ojibwe last Thursday), I thought "holy ****, what was I thinking? I must have been insane when I bought this car and decided to rally it."
It got better after a while...but I still think you AWD guys are insane. The roads are scary at 70-90, I can't imagine what they're like at 110.
| RB5 Clone | 09-01-2006 05:13 PM |
[QUOTE=fliz;15104436]To that end...after my first track day I thought "wow that was fun. lots of speed, not to dangerous" Even though I probably hit 110 on all seasons in the rain.
After my first rally stage (practice stage at Ojibwe last Thursday), I thought "holy ****, what was I thinking? I must have been insane when I bought this car and decided to rally it."
It got better after a while...but I still think you AWD guys are insane. The roads are scary at 70-90, I can't imagine what they're like at 110.[/QUOTE]
heh, you must have mistooken me for a guy who hazz a turbo! With 2.5 motor and 4.44 gears, I think my car's top end is maybe 106...but O how it goes from 45 to 80.
And if you misjudge a L3 (or your codriver tells you about it late) you just grab 2nd gear and STAND on it....basically no diff from your Golf, you maybe just don't accept this as "normal" yet. :huh:
Dave G
After my first rally stage (practice stage at Ojibwe last Thursday), I thought "holy ****, what was I thinking? I must have been insane when I bought this car and decided to rally it."
It got better after a while...but I still think you AWD guys are insane. The roads are scary at 70-90, I can't imagine what they're like at 110.[/QUOTE]
heh, you must have mistooken me for a guy who hazz a turbo! With 2.5 motor and 4.44 gears, I think my car's top end is maybe 106...but O how it goes from 45 to 80.
And if you misjudge a L3 (or your codriver tells you about it late) you just grab 2nd gear and STAND on it....basically no diff from your Golf, you maybe just don't accept this as "normal" yet. :huh:
Dave G
| fliz | 09-01-2006 05:23 PM |
[QUOTE=RB5 Clone;15104706]
And if you misjudge a L3 (or your codriver tells you about it late) you just grab 2nd gear and STAND on it....basically no diff from your Golf, you maybe just don't accept this as "normal" yet. :huh:
Dave G[/QUOTE]
L3? Is that a tulip with a slightly squiggly line, or one with a very squiggly line?
<---Seed 8, route book only. :(
And if you misjudge a L3 (or your codriver tells you about it late) you just grab 2nd gear and STAND on it....basically no diff from your Golf, you maybe just don't accept this as "normal" yet. :huh:
Dave G[/QUOTE]
L3? Is that a tulip with a slightly squiggly line, or one with a very squiggly line?
<---Seed 8, route book only. :(
| RB5 Clone | 09-01-2006 05:32 PM |
...L3 is one of those things where you think all is well, you're haulin 65 down some little dirt road, then you're suddenly faced with a 90 left .....:eek:
DG
as they say in Quebec, "c'est normal!"
DG
as they say in Quebec, "c'est normal!"
| fliz | 09-01-2006 05:42 PM |
[QUOTE=RB5 Clone;15104963]...L3 is one of those things where you think all is well, you're haulin 65 down some little dirt road, then you're suddenly faced with a 90 left .....:eek:
DG
as they say in Quebec, "c'est normal!"[/QUOTE]
ahhh...so that's probably the only thing called out in the route book. Luckily my codriver didn't miss any instructions, so I haven't had that experience yet...although I did nearly wet myself on what I believe was called out as "crest 100 L3 into R3" that was really "crest 50...". Coverage of the corner starts at 2:30, I'm about 8:45 in on this video:
[url]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4655339955615219169&q=ojibwe&hl=en[/url]
DG
as they say in Quebec, "c'est normal!"[/QUOTE]
ahhh...so that's probably the only thing called out in the route book. Luckily my codriver didn't miss any instructions, so I haven't had that experience yet...although I did nearly wet myself on what I believe was called out as "crest 100 L3 into R3" that was really "crest 50...". Coverage of the corner starts at 2:30, I'm about 8:45 in on this video:
[url]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4655339955615219169&q=ojibwe&hl=en[/url]
| randy zimmer | 09-02-2006 03:11 PM |
re:Shifting: Gravel Drivers vs Track Drivers
I am not sure but I find that gravel rally drivers leg movements tends to be more complicated that track drivers.
I see Patrick Richards rally video and saw the amazing leg work. I never see that kind of leg work on drivers driving on a tarmac. He also upshift without pressing the clutch which seems so easy for them...
...So why the difference? Is Rally driving harder than track driving?"
Well, after driving box-stock up to can-am/indy cars on tracks and 50 rallys, I have to agree that going 100% in both is tough.
Hardest to me is track starts and restarts, followed by rally (any), followed by track qualifying, followed by track lapping.
Dog box shifting is no biggie and since I like to finish and usually paid the bills, I used the clutch most of the time. Track ratios are usually so tight that the gears drop in much easier than a wider spaced rally box and you get to pick ratios that match the course's corners. Picking the right gear for 100's of rally turns is impossible and you need to change up and down in a bend more than you'd like.
I've made track boxes last by being nice to them when wounded but any rally would have blown it up in a few miles no matter what you did. Shock, wheel spin and impacts are murder to a driveline (ex: Cleveland CART).
Hope that explains it for you.
rz
I am not sure but I find that gravel rally drivers leg movements tends to be more complicated that track drivers.
I see Patrick Richards rally video and saw the amazing leg work. I never see that kind of leg work on drivers driving on a tarmac. He also upshift without pressing the clutch which seems so easy for them...
...So why the difference? Is Rally driving harder than track driving?"
Well, after driving box-stock up to can-am/indy cars on tracks and 50 rallys, I have to agree that going 100% in both is tough.
Hardest to me is track starts and restarts, followed by rally (any), followed by track qualifying, followed by track lapping.
Dog box shifting is no biggie and since I like to finish and usually paid the bills, I used the clutch most of the time. Track ratios are usually so tight that the gears drop in much easier than a wider spaced rally box and you get to pick ratios that match the course's corners. Picking the right gear for 100's of rally turns is impossible and you need to change up and down in a bend more than you'd like.
I've made track boxes last by being nice to them when wounded but any rally would have blown it up in a few miles no matter what you did. Shock, wheel spin and impacts are murder to a driveline (ex: Cleveland CART).
Hope that explains it for you.
rz
| JC_595 | 09-02-2006 10:07 PM |
[QUOTE=fliz;15105100]ahhh...so that's probably the only thing called out in the route book. Luckily my codriver didn't miss any instructions, so I haven't had that experience yet...although I did nearly wet myself on what I believe was called out as "crest 100 L3 into R3" that was really "crest 50...". Coverage of the corner starts at 2:30, I'm about 8:45 in on this video:
[url]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4655339955615219169&q=ojibwe&hl=en[/url][/QUOTE]
Chad, it gets more normal the more you rally.
And it IS a big jump to faster AWD turbos, but the Golf you have can go DARN fast. Maybe you'll have to let me ride with you at LSPR practice stage & vice versa...
[url]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4655339955615219169&q=ojibwe&hl=en[/url][/QUOTE]
Chad, it gets more normal the more you rally.
And it IS a big jump to faster AWD turbos, but the Golf you have can go DARN fast. Maybe you'll have to let me ride with you at LSPR practice stage & vice versa...
| goto_racing | 09-03-2006 03:43 PM |
Give road racers SOME props, please.... :)
While the magority of a road race is about precision, tire maintinence, and a high degree of control, the first lap often requires you to be HIGHLY adaptive. That first few turns look ALOT different than they have all weekend when you are going into them and all you see is brake dust, dirt flying, blinking brake lights, a car spinning across your apex without a bumper, and competitor in your mirror stuffing him/herself into your door. That's alot of new information getting thrown at a road racer in a very short amount of time, often requiring the same kind of think-on-your-feet, frantic techniques the rally guys are displaying.
But then I agree, after that we just turn on the radio and cruise ;)
Chris Lock
While the magority of a road race is about precision, tire maintinence, and a high degree of control, the first lap often requires you to be HIGHLY adaptive. That first few turns look ALOT different than they have all weekend when you are going into them and all you see is brake dust, dirt flying, blinking brake lights, a car spinning across your apex without a bumper, and competitor in your mirror stuffing him/herself into your door. That's alot of new information getting thrown at a road racer in a very short amount of time, often requiring the same kind of think-on-your-feet, frantic techniques the rally guys are displaying.
But then I agree, after that we just turn on the radio and cruise ;)
Chris Lock
| mpj_becks | 09-03-2006 11:52 PM |
[QUOTE=goto_racing;15118651]Give road racers SOME props, please.... :)
While the magority of a road race is about precision, tire maintinence, and a high degree of control, the first lap often requires you to be HIGHLY adaptive. That first few turns look ALOT different than they have all weekend when you are going into them and all you see is brake dust, dirt flying, blinking brake lights, a car spinning across your apex without a bumper, and competitor in your mirror stuffing him/herself into your door. That's alot of new information getting thrown at a road racer in a very short amount of time, often requiring the same kind of think-on-your-feet, frantic techniques the rally guys are displaying.
But then I agree, after that we just turn on the radio and cruise ;)
Chris Lock[/QUOTE]
Ah but Chris I would imagine you guys drive the course a few times prior to the actual race ;)
Mike
While the magority of a road race is about precision, tire maintinence, and a high degree of control, the first lap often requires you to be HIGHLY adaptive. That first few turns look ALOT different than they have all weekend when you are going into them and all you see is brake dust, dirt flying, blinking brake lights, a car spinning across your apex without a bumper, and competitor in your mirror stuffing him/herself into your door. That's alot of new information getting thrown at a road racer in a very short amount of time, often requiring the same kind of think-on-your-feet, frantic techniques the rally guys are displaying.
But then I agree, after that we just turn on the radio and cruise ;)
Chris Lock[/QUOTE]
Ah but Chris I would imagine you guys drive the course a few times prior to the actual race ;)
Mike
| patr | 09-04-2006 12:30 AM |
I always use the clutch when upshifting unless I think its going to cause a crash otherwise. You WILL strip/round the power side of the dogs in most types of h pattern dogboxes *if* you do not have an engine cut feature. Trust me on this - and I wont get into much of an argument about it because I honestly have broken more subie boxes than anyone else I know. If you count the actual number of clutchless upshifts its near zero. "vlady" sorry but you are incorrect about the shifting boxes (I wont argue of course about the driver comment). hardly any clutchless upshift on the subaru dogboxes.
That video that you guys refer to, just remeber that this is a very "busy" stage (baie) and that there was rain and lots of surface/grip changes... and we were frantically trying to make up as much time as possible due to an earlier problem. So sometimes the footwork is not so much to retain control as to keep from going off because you are overdriving (ok like I admit we all brake too early sometimes - especially when going from pegged in 6th to the 1st gear corner over a blind crest - but I cheat and stomp both feet). If you took a more flowing / less busy set of roads like colorado or something you would hardly have any spaz footwork.
Give the track guys props - I'd like to try it sometime but the idea of some guy t-boning me at speed makes me shudder !
If you want extra special fancy footwork, look up some synchro box stuff. Trust me its MORE work if you want to use a synchro tramny that is "fragile". But just because there is a dogbox doesn't mean much different in terms of footwork (at least for me), just that the clutch is used less (not on downshifts). You still do the same thing, only diff is you clutch on downshifts (unless you cant - but you shouldn't be in that situation if you are in control). Its easy to transfer from left foot on the brake to heel and toe (simultaneous transfer so as to not unweight the front) and still "left foot brake" but with the right foot - and then transfer back.
That video that you guys refer to, just remeber that this is a very "busy" stage (baie) and that there was rain and lots of surface/grip changes... and we were frantically trying to make up as much time as possible due to an earlier problem. So sometimes the footwork is not so much to retain control as to keep from going off because you are overdriving (ok like I admit we all brake too early sometimes - especially when going from pegged in 6th to the 1st gear corner over a blind crest - but I cheat and stomp both feet). If you took a more flowing / less busy set of roads like colorado or something you would hardly have any spaz footwork.
Give the track guys props - I'd like to try it sometime but the idea of some guy t-boning me at speed makes me shudder !
If you want extra special fancy footwork, look up some synchro box stuff. Trust me its MORE work if you want to use a synchro tramny that is "fragile". But just because there is a dogbox doesn't mean much different in terms of footwork (at least for me), just that the clutch is used less (not on downshifts). You still do the same thing, only diff is you clutch on downshifts (unless you cant - but you shouldn't be in that situation if you are in control). Its easy to transfer from left foot on the brake to heel and toe (simultaneous transfer so as to not unweight the front) and still "left foot brake" but with the right foot - and then transfer back.
| Pavlo | 09-04-2006 04:22 PM |
Clutchless downshifts?
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I find it quite interesting that people are saying that downshifts are more often done without the clutch rather than the upshifts. I have found that I can upshift no problem at all without the clutch, but I always back of the throttle to do this in the absense of an engine cut. However, on track, paticularly if i get flustered on corner entry (back end loose or whatever) then the downshift goes to pot, even with the clutch. I have become more adept at heeling and toeing while hard on the brakes (and keeping the braking effort going is the trick).
So am I missing something about the clutchless downshifts?
Cheers
Paul
So am I missing something about the clutchless downshifts?
Cheers
Paul
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