| BOFslime | 10-24-2004 09:48 PM |
so, i'd really like to get into rally, but costs are prohibitive
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I've spent time drag racing, and auto crossing. Its all good fun, but it doesn't jump out at me. I have not yet been to a Road Course, i'm sure I would enjoy it much more than what i have done thus far, but after seeing and taking some part in (martial worker) a rally, where i was able to drive on stage, it really seems to me like the type of motor sport i really want to do. Whats sad is that its also the most expensive.
I'd like to do a school to start out with.. checked out Tim O'Neil's but starting at $1600! A car is also a concern, I'd love to do it in a subie, but it looks like the cheapest route would be an awd dsm. Even still costs of safty equipment, tires, travel and entry fee's, it seems this sport is out of my reach without financial help. Then there's the issue that sponsors only want to fund some sort of experienced drivers. I can't afford these startup costs, any help as to how to go about doing this?
I'd like to do a school to start out with.. checked out Tim O'Neil's but starting at $1600! A car is also a concern, I'd love to do it in a subie, but it looks like the cheapest route would be an awd dsm. Even still costs of safty equipment, tires, travel and entry fee's, it seems this sport is out of my reach without financial help. Then there's the issue that sponsors only want to fund some sort of experienced drivers. I can't afford these startup costs, any help as to how to go about doing this?
| Jon Bogert | 10-24-2004 10:06 PM |
[QUOTE]I can't afford these startup costs...[/QUOTE]Not to pee in your cheerios, but the running costs are significant, too. Used rally cars have never been cheaper to buy, but the travel, maintenance and consumable costs will add on to that in a hurry. And a DSM? Please--forget about turbo AWD if you're starting out on a tight budget.
Talk to some of the guys who rally on a very tight budget, and they're still spending >$1000 per event. Are you a mechanic? If you can't do most or all of the maintenance on your car, double or triple that number. You'll need a tow vehicle too.
As for sponsors, you'll probably have better luck with wealthy elderly relatives. :D
Talk to some of the guys who rally on a very tight budget, and they're still spending >$1000 per event. Are you a mechanic? If you can't do most or all of the maintenance on your car, double or triple that number. You'll need a tow vehicle too.
As for sponsors, you'll probably have better luck with wealthy elderly relatives. :D
| BOFslime | 10-24-2004 10:31 PM |
oh yeah.. i stated that running costs would be high.
[QUOTE=BOFslime]Even still costs of safty equipment, tires, travel and entry fee's, it seems this sport is out of my reach without financial help. [/QUOTE]
maintenance/repair and event expenses will be high. How does anyone get started and campaign that doesn't already have deep pockets? I don't know any rich people :(
[QUOTE=BOFslime]Even still costs of safty equipment, tires, travel and entry fee's, it seems this sport is out of my reach without financial help. [/QUOTE]
maintenance/repair and event expenses will be high. How does anyone get started and campaign that doesn't already have deep pockets? I don't know any rich people :(
| kwh29 | 10-24-2004 10:38 PM |
Normal people either rally POS old Golf's or Xratty's (SR4Ti Merkur) or various other 2wd under 2-l cars and are lucky enough to either live somewhere where lots of events are within a 12-hour drive or have rich relatives or are rich themselves.
The car is the cheapest part of entry level rally. You can count on $1000 per event without doing _anything_ extravagant. Extravagant is definied as more than 1 new tire per day of competition or food from anywhere fancier than Costco...
From everyone I've talked to, O'Neil's school is well worth it. Those who complete the school end up with far fewer offs and DNF's than people learning through the school of hard knocks.
--Kevin H.
(occasional navigator, one of these days if I strike it rich driver)
The car is the cheapest part of entry level rally. You can count on $1000 per event without doing _anything_ extravagant. Extravagant is definied as more than 1 new tire per day of competition or food from anywhere fancier than Costco...
From everyone I've talked to, O'Neil's school is well worth it. Those who complete the school end up with far fewer offs and DNF's than people learning through the school of hard knocks.
--Kevin H.
(occasional navigator, one of these days if I strike it rich driver)
| Duo | 10-24-2004 10:41 PM |
buy a used car there are dsms and eclipses awd that are 8k but they are ready to race. I heard at the rally school cost of each rally is 2k. So i say start winning quick or just forget it. Good luck im in the same boat as you. Try and look at bensrallypage.com it has used rally cars for sale. BEst way to start is in a fwd probably not what you wanted to hear but thats what ive seen, its cheaper, and teachs you alot due to you having to use momentum to get through turns instead of awd or power
joel
joel
| thechickencow | 10-24-2004 10:46 PM |
The car is a small portion of your long term costs, maintenance isn't so bad, its the repairs that are gonna be worse. Entry fees are going up, hotels are expensive, and gas for racing and towing isn't too cheap. It is possible to do it on the cheap though.
Bottom line, if you're driving an STi you can afford to rally.
Also, start looking at NA 2wd cars. ;)
Bottom line, if you're driving an STi you can afford to rally.
Also, start looking at NA 2wd cars. ;)
| BOFslime | 10-24-2004 11:26 PM |
[QUOTE=thechickencow]Bottom line, if you're driving an STi you can afford to rally.
[/QUOTE]
mebby if i sold the sti, and lived on ramen noodles.
2K for dirt cheap car, another 2k to mod car to make rally ready. 1k for trailer to move rally car on, $??? for a truck to pull trailer. $1k per event + food + gas + lodging x 5 events?. even driving the car to the event, this would still cost ~$9k for the first year, before hidden costs of replaceing stuff that breaks. and if i want to do a school.. thats another $3-5k. I really don't see how i can afford this. I looked at autocrossing as expencive. :(
[/QUOTE]
mebby if i sold the sti, and lived on ramen noodles.
2K for dirt cheap car, another 2k to mod car to make rally ready. 1k for trailer to move rally car on, $??? for a truck to pull trailer. $1k per event + food + gas + lodging x 5 events?. even driving the car to the event, this would still cost ~$9k for the first year, before hidden costs of replaceing stuff that breaks. and if i want to do a school.. thats another $3-5k. I really don't see how i can afford this. I looked at autocrossing as expencive. :(
| turboICE | 10-24-2004 11:26 PM |
Spend a season crewing for someone. The *whole* season. That alone will give you the idea of the time commitment. Plus you will get to see up front all the logistics and costs. And then if you still want in - you will be better prepared informationally and also have contacts to help you get a car in better condition, maybe even one you know. And almost everyone still sells things for less to people they know than they don't.
And yeah pretty much anyone starting on a budget (not that you ever really get away from doing it on a budget) starts with FWD N/A.
And yeah pretty much anyone starting on a budget (not that you ever really get away from doing it on a budget) starts with FWD N/A.
| ANZAC_1915 | 10-25-2004 12:35 AM |
How about becoming a co-driver? A much cheaper way to get in-car experience.
| Subie Gal | 10-25-2004 11:24 AM |
i started as a co driver. did that for a year :) great experience!!
as far as getting started,
i HIGHLY recommend a lower hp 2wd car for your starter car.
I started in a 95 1.8L Impreza
reasons:
less expensive to run
less chance of that huge off
more opportunity to learn to go fast smoothly
more opportunity to learn the sport! (what breaks, what doesnt etc)
if you can drive a 'slow car - fast' you will be at an advantage when and if you move into 4wd turbo PGT/Group N/Open class.
Rallying is not cheap. there is no way to be involved in ANY motorsports cheaply
-consider buying a used rally car, run a FEW events per year to get started.
-try to get some local sponsorship (think restaurants, local businesses - it's great advertising for them)
-do what you can afford and learn the car and just get involved in the sport :)
but yes, the downer really is the costs :(
expenses is one of the main reasons i've not run a full pro season yet. just random events close to home - but I still enjoy it and I still learn something every time I get out there and get a chance to go play.
if you REALLY want to do it and your heart/mind are REALLY into it,
you will make it happen....
Jamie
[url]www.subiegal.com[/url]
as far as getting started,
i HIGHLY recommend a lower hp 2wd car for your starter car.
I started in a 95 1.8L Impreza
reasons:
less expensive to run
less chance of that huge off
more opportunity to learn to go fast smoothly
more opportunity to learn the sport! (what breaks, what doesnt etc)
if you can drive a 'slow car - fast' you will be at an advantage when and if you move into 4wd turbo PGT/Group N/Open class.
Rallying is not cheap. there is no way to be involved in ANY motorsports cheaply
-consider buying a used rally car, run a FEW events per year to get started.
-try to get some local sponsorship (think restaurants, local businesses - it's great advertising for them)
-do what you can afford and learn the car and just get involved in the sport :)
but yes, the downer really is the costs :(
expenses is one of the main reasons i've not run a full pro season yet. just random events close to home - but I still enjoy it and I still learn something every time I get out there and get a chance to go play.
if you REALLY want to do it and your heart/mind are REALLY into it,
you will make it happen....
Jamie
[url]www.subiegal.com[/url]
| rallynutdon | 10-25-2004 01:25 PM |
It's not cheap but it's a matter of priorities. My daily driver is a 91 Legacy with 260,000 miles so the money I might invest in a "newer" daily driver, I instead invest in the rally car and associated costs. Of course, I'm 58 years old and didn't start until I was 52 years old. I WAITED (a concept that's not familiar with many people) until I got my kids thru college and was debt free. I've probably spent (total guess, I'm afraid to actually add it up) $50,000 in the last 5 years. But I don't owe anybody any money for any of it. If I total the car tomorrow, I won't have a car, but I won't owe any money on it.
BUT, I wasn't totally uninvolved with the sport. For the previous 20 years, I worked events (including stage captain) and co-drove for someone else. That got me very familiar with the whole program so that when I became a driver, I knew exactly what to expect. Also, if you've not done many TSD events, some of the concepts can be the same and experience there is helpful. I've know of persons wanting to get into the sport, and they drove very fast on the special stages, but totally screwed up everthing else (transits, check in, etc) and did lousy because it.
Don Kennedy [url]www.RockyRoadRacing.com[/url]
BUT, I wasn't totally uninvolved with the sport. For the previous 20 years, I worked events (including stage captain) and co-drove for someone else. That got me very familiar with the whole program so that when I became a driver, I knew exactly what to expect. Also, if you've not done many TSD events, some of the concepts can be the same and experience there is helpful. I've know of persons wanting to get into the sport, and they drove very fast on the special stages, but totally screwed up everthing else (transits, check in, etc) and did lousy because it.
Don Kennedy [url]www.RockyRoadRacing.com[/url]
| anders8 | 10-25-2004 01:57 PM |
[QUOTE=BOFslime]I looked at autocrossing as expencive. :([/QUOTE]
Then, unfortunately, rally is not for you. :(
If you want some information from another person who has been doing this for the last five years (Don is right on), mostly on the "let's not spend a lot of money" side, read my web site on this topic:
[URL=http://linaracing.com/howmuch.cfm]http://linaracing.com/howmuch.cfm[/URL]
Cheers,
Anders
Then, unfortunately, rally is not for you. :(
If you want some information from another person who has been doing this for the last five years (Don is right on), mostly on the "let's not spend a lot of money" side, read my web site on this topic:
[URL=http://linaracing.com/howmuch.cfm]http://linaracing.com/howmuch.cfm[/URL]
Cheers,
Anders
| Rebellion | 10-25-2004 03:55 PM |
good post Anders... if I ever get my business making decent money i may sponsor myself and get a car together. need school and the whole 9 yards first though.
| Robin2 | 10-25-2004 03:57 PM |
Autocrossing expensive? it's the cheapest thing....
Don't tell him the entry fee for 1 rally..... What was STPR or Maine this year?
Robin
Don't tell him the entry fee for 1 rally..... What was STPR or Maine this year?
Robin
| sunnynw | 10-25-2004 04:05 PM |
[QUOTE=Robin2]Autocrossing expensive? it's the cheapest thing....
Don't tell him the entry fee for 1 rally..... What was STPR or Maine this year?
Robin[/QUOTE]
Not sure about STPR or Maine.
Here are some entry fees from the NW:
Mt Hood Club Rally was $400
Oregon Trail Club Rally was $450 for early entry
Oregon Trail PRO Rally was $900
Dryad/Shi**poke Club Rally was $425 for early entry
Don't tell him the entry fee for 1 rally..... What was STPR or Maine this year?
Robin[/QUOTE]
Not sure about STPR or Maine.
Here are some entry fees from the NW:
Mt Hood Club Rally was $400
Oregon Trail Club Rally was $450 for early entry
Oregon Trail PRO Rally was $900
Dryad/Shi**poke Club Rally was $425 for early entry
| anders8 | 10-25-2004 04:07 PM |
[QUOTE=Robin2]What was STPR...?[/QUOTE]
Both clubrallies, early entry: $625
Run the same roads in "pro" class: $875
Run the same roads, in "pro" class, but don't register until you arrive: $1,350
The practice stage cost as much / more than an autocross. ($25).
Anders
Both clubrallies, early entry: $625
Run the same roads in "pro" class: $875
Run the same roads, in "pro" class, but don't register until you arrive: $1,350
The practice stage cost as much / more than an autocross. ($25).
Anders
| VVVV | 10-25-2004 04:22 PM |
My most realistic plan for getting to do club rally involves $400 worth of Powerball tickets every year.
| kwh29 | 10-25-2004 04:23 PM |
Anders' page is the real deal -- Rally is MORE expensive than road racing. Remember that many people are within 250 miles of 3 or more nice tracks and most regions put on a series for entry level road racers with lower entry fees of <$200 per weekend. Couple that with a MUCH lower damage rate and road racing "on a budget" is a lot cheaper than rally on a budget.
That said, if you can afford the payments/insurance/taxes/gas mileage associated with owning an STi you can afford to rally, at least to a limited schedule. It might make you feel a bit ghetto driving to work in a 20+ yr. old beater and never eating lunch out but it _can_ be done on real world incomes.
--Kevin H.
(14 yr old beater but still eat lunch out -- thus I co-drive! :D )
That said, if you can afford the payments/insurance/taxes/gas mileage associated with owning an STi you can afford to rally, at least to a limited schedule. It might make you feel a bit ghetto driving to work in a 20+ yr. old beater and never eating lunch out but it _can_ be done on real world incomes.
--Kevin H.
(14 yr old beater but still eat lunch out -- thus I co-drive! :D )
| anders8 | 10-25-2004 04:41 PM |
[QUOTE=kwh29]Anders' page is the real deal[/QUOTE]
Thanks Kevin. :) Plus, excellent usage of the possesive on proper nouns ending with 's'. ;)
[QUOTE]It might make you feel a bit ghetto driving to work in a 20+ yr. old beater[/QUOTE]
What are you talking about? My daily driver brand is new!!! I'm the first owner!
(Ok, so it's a Geo Prizm that I bought in 1989. Fifteen years later, I'm still driving it, and just last week it ticked over 200,000 miles. ;) I have considered trading it for a "new" car, like a five year old Chevy Metro for $2000 that will get 47 mpg.)
Anders
man I drive some crappy cars around. If I didn't rally I'd be all up in that bling! :( :( :(
Thanks Kevin. :) Plus, excellent usage of the possesive on proper nouns ending with 's'. ;)
[QUOTE]It might make you feel a bit ghetto driving to work in a 20+ yr. old beater[/QUOTE]
What are you talking about? My daily driver brand is new!!! I'm the first owner!
(Ok, so it's a Geo Prizm that I bought in 1989. Fifteen years later, I'm still driving it, and just last week it ticked over 200,000 miles. ;) I have considered trading it for a "new" car, like a five year old Chevy Metro for $2000 that will get 47 mpg.)
Anders
man I drive some crappy cars around. If I didn't rally I'd be all up in that bling! :( :( :(
| dwx | 10-25-2004 05:01 PM |
I had to go to the Novice meeting at LSPR because I was co-driving for Jay and I've never driven/co-driven before. Bruce alluded to a number of things that will be changing as far as doing Rally America sanctioned events. I don't know how NASA licensing of drivers and co-drivers works.
New drivers are not going to be allowed to build and race powerful cars anymore. Seed 8 drivers are going to be limited to Production or Group 2 cars. No AWD. Can see some opportunities for guys to build rental rally cars. For those that have already invested heavily in building a car, they will let you run on a case by case business, but will require the car to be severely detuned via restrictors or some other method. Honestly I don't see them turning away someone who wants to rally a 1.8L AWD or 2.2L AWD Impreza in PGT.
The rest of the stuff alluded to how you would graduate from a Seed 8 driver.
You are likely going to have to attend the Novice school every time until you are no longer Seed 8.
The seeding graduations will not be set in stone.
There will be a review process for every driver that is looked at along with results in promoting seeds.
There will be a driver's logbook issued in which every incident involving the driver will be logged.
A driver will likely have to finish more rallies (on the order of 4 ) before they go from Seed 8 to Seed 7.
I still have aspirations of building or buying a built car at some point. I have been fairly frugal in getting deals on things so far, but it's by no means cheap. I paid $7500 for a 2000 F250 diesel truck as a tow vehicle, I paid $1300 for a nice dual axle trailer. This is to haul my SM-class autocross WRX around, which could have been turned into a PGT car twice over at this point... :)
Racing isn't cheap, no matter what kind of racing you are doing. There is a reason why those at the top level of most motorsports are also not hurting for cash.
New drivers are not going to be allowed to build and race powerful cars anymore. Seed 8 drivers are going to be limited to Production or Group 2 cars. No AWD. Can see some opportunities for guys to build rental rally cars. For those that have already invested heavily in building a car, they will let you run on a case by case business, but will require the car to be severely detuned via restrictors or some other method. Honestly I don't see them turning away someone who wants to rally a 1.8L AWD or 2.2L AWD Impreza in PGT.
The rest of the stuff alluded to how you would graduate from a Seed 8 driver.
You are likely going to have to attend the Novice school every time until you are no longer Seed 8.
The seeding graduations will not be set in stone.
There will be a review process for every driver that is looked at along with results in promoting seeds.
There will be a driver's logbook issued in which every incident involving the driver will be logged.
A driver will likely have to finish more rallies (on the order of 4 ) before they go from Seed 8 to Seed 7.
I still have aspirations of building or buying a built car at some point. I have been fairly frugal in getting deals on things so far, but it's by no means cheap. I paid $7500 for a 2000 F250 diesel truck as a tow vehicle, I paid $1300 for a nice dual axle trailer. This is to haul my SM-class autocross WRX around, which could have been turned into a PGT car twice over at this point... :)
Racing isn't cheap, no matter what kind of racing you are doing. There is a reason why those at the top level of most motorsports are also not hurting for cash.
| sunnynw | 10-25-2004 05:10 PM |
[QUOTE=kwh29]
That said, if you can afford the payments/insurance/taxes/gas mileage associated with owning an STi you can afford to rally, at least to a limited schedule. It might make you feel a bit ghetto driving to work in a 20+ yr. old beater and never eating lunch out but it _can_ be done on real world incomes.
--Kevin H.
(14 yr old beater but still eat lunch out -- thus I co-drive! :D )[/QUOTE]
We rallied an 86 MR2 up until early this Spring. We sold it to a couple who are in their last year of college. I have not doubt they live on Ramen. But they are rallying it & not sitting on the couch whining about costs. They are out there for the [B]love [/B] of the sport.
I know a lot of people who are in this same boat. Much respect to them!
I agree, if you can afford an STI, you can afford to rally! Question is - How bad do you want to rally?
That said, if you can afford the payments/insurance/taxes/gas mileage associated with owning an STi you can afford to rally, at least to a limited schedule. It might make you feel a bit ghetto driving to work in a 20+ yr. old beater and never eating lunch out but it _can_ be done on real world incomes.
--Kevin H.
(14 yr old beater but still eat lunch out -- thus I co-drive! :D )[/QUOTE]
We rallied an 86 MR2 up until early this Spring. We sold it to a couple who are in their last year of college. I have not doubt they live on Ramen. But they are rallying it & not sitting on the couch whining about costs. They are out there for the [B]love [/B] of the sport.
I know a lot of people who are in this same boat. Much respect to them!
I agree, if you can afford an STI, you can afford to rally! Question is - How bad do you want to rally?
| outback2.5HO | 10-25-2004 05:49 PM |
You can also buy a +-$1000 starter car (Golf, GTI, Jetta, Corolla, Sentra, Impreza Fwd, Early Legacy fwd or AWD) and rally cross/ practice with it as you save your $ to prep it. Unfortunately, you won't realistically be able to fully prep the car for $2k. A *decent* cage runs $1200-1500, seats $800 or more, harnesses $120+ each, driving suit $150+ each, fire extinguishers $30 each, etc... That's with no suspension upgrades, wheels, tires, or any spare parts.
SO, when you can buy a fully prepped car for 4-5k that's a deal..
Definately agree that crewing or codriving is a good way to get a good feel for how it all works. :D
SO, when you can buy a fully prepped car for 4-5k that's a deal..
Definately agree that crewing or codriving is a good way to get a good feel for how it all works. :D
| BOFslime | 10-25-2004 06:08 PM |
[Robin2]: ...i'm aware of what the entry fee's are :rolleyes: My mentioning of autoX was in looking at it in a full competitive level, going to all events, competing for points, not just a 1 or 2 event.. I already autocross at this level, 'fun, and experience day', $25-$40 bucks is dirt cheap per event to race. No what I was talking about was involving the whole deal, which can easily cost a few hundred dollars for a season, nothing compared to rally, but expensive for a 20 something that has never had any previous involvement with any motor sport.
I take offence to your comments too [sunnynw]. Though My STi was bought when I had extra money, my money situation right now is extremely tight. I refuse to sell the sti, I'm trying to find a way to keep the STi AND rally on my limited funds. I am NOT 'whining about costs', merely stating my sticker shock, and asking how others get started. I really want to get into rally, I am just trying to figure out the best way for me to do it, and not have to give up my car to do so in the process.
I spend a lot of time in OT, and can take being flamed over silly stuff, but give me a break people. I'm 22 years old, and have 'some' money, My car is paid for, but that took a lot of my surplus funds (better over all though since i'm not paying interest). I'm planning on moving, and those expenses... life expenses are priority 1, I need to further stabilize my financial situation before i can fully be able to budget out how I�m going to rally.
I appreciate those providing useful info on how to start out [subiegal], [dwx], [anders8], [glenn], and others, you are all a great help, and it seems like the best plan is to go after a co-driver spot, and gain a better understanding of the sport, and its inner workings, and try and budget out a car and the expenses from there.
I take offence to your comments too [sunnynw]. Though My STi was bought when I had extra money, my money situation right now is extremely tight. I refuse to sell the sti, I'm trying to find a way to keep the STi AND rally on my limited funds. I am NOT 'whining about costs', merely stating my sticker shock, and asking how others get started. I really want to get into rally, I am just trying to figure out the best way for me to do it, and not have to give up my car to do so in the process.
I spend a lot of time in OT, and can take being flamed over silly stuff, but give me a break people. I'm 22 years old, and have 'some' money, My car is paid for, but that took a lot of my surplus funds (better over all though since i'm not paying interest). I'm planning on moving, and those expenses... life expenses are priority 1, I need to further stabilize my financial situation before i can fully be able to budget out how I�m going to rally.
I appreciate those providing useful info on how to start out [subiegal], [dwx], [anders8], [glenn], and others, you are all a great help, and it seems like the best plan is to go after a co-driver spot, and gain a better understanding of the sport, and its inner workings, and try and budget out a car and the expenses from there.
| sunnynw | 10-25-2004 07:48 PM |
[QUOTE=BOFslime] but expensive for a 20 something that has never had any previous involvement with any motor sport.
I take offence to your comments too [sunnynw]. Though My STi was bought when I had extra money, my money situation right now is extremely tight. I refuse to sell the sti, I'm trying to find a way to keep the STi AND rally on my limited funds. I am NOT 'whining about costs', merely stating my sticker shock, and asking how others get started.
I really want to get into rally, I am just trying to figure out the best way for me to do it, and not have to give up my car to do so in the process.
My car is paid for, but that took a lot of my surplus funds (better over all though since i'm not paying interest).
I'm planning on moving, and those expenses... life expenses are priority 1, I need to further stabilize my financial situation before i can fully be able to budget out how I�m going to rally.[/QUOTE]
I have NO intent to flame you. Apologize if you took offense.
You are not alone in the sticker shock that most people have when it comes to rally. I "whine" about it too, ask the people I compete with - we ALL do it! ;) But I choose to cut corners on other things so I can go rally. It is a choice I and *MOST* others make.
Just walk through a service area at an event & talk with people. You would be amazed at what some people have gone through just to get entered at an event. I have heard some pretty amazing things from other competitors about the sacrifices they have made to rally. Again, it goes back to - how bad do you want to rally?
Since your car is paid off that is one less thing to worry about. You obviously have the will power to cut corners to accomplish a goal. To be able to pay off $29k in a very short time is AWESOME! Congrats! :)
When you finally get your living arrangements settled, you will be in a much better position to start looking for a car.
As many others have already stated, Co-Driving, Crewing or Volunteering for an event is a great way to get started.
I applaud your enthusiasm for rally. Hope the best for you. :)
Regards.
I take offence to your comments too [sunnynw]. Though My STi was bought when I had extra money, my money situation right now is extremely tight. I refuse to sell the sti, I'm trying to find a way to keep the STi AND rally on my limited funds. I am NOT 'whining about costs', merely stating my sticker shock, and asking how others get started.
I really want to get into rally, I am just trying to figure out the best way for me to do it, and not have to give up my car to do so in the process.
My car is paid for, but that took a lot of my surplus funds (better over all though since i'm not paying interest).
I'm planning on moving, and those expenses... life expenses are priority 1, I need to further stabilize my financial situation before i can fully be able to budget out how I�m going to rally.[/QUOTE]
I have NO intent to flame you. Apologize if you took offense.
You are not alone in the sticker shock that most people have when it comes to rally. I "whine" about it too, ask the people I compete with - we ALL do it! ;) But I choose to cut corners on other things so I can go rally. It is a choice I and *MOST* others make.
Just walk through a service area at an event & talk with people. You would be amazed at what some people have gone through just to get entered at an event. I have heard some pretty amazing things from other competitors about the sacrifices they have made to rally. Again, it goes back to - how bad do you want to rally?
Since your car is paid off that is one less thing to worry about. You obviously have the will power to cut corners to accomplish a goal. To be able to pay off $29k in a very short time is AWESOME! Congrats! :)
When you finally get your living arrangements settled, you will be in a much better position to start looking for a car.
As many others have already stated, Co-Driving, Crewing or Volunteering for an event is a great way to get started.
I applaud your enthusiasm for rally. Hope the best for you. :)
Regards.
| JC_595 | 10-25-2004 08:52 PM |
We started in a 200,000mile Golf GTI. We just sold it for $4000 turn key, ready to rally, logbooked & upgraded & LOTS of spares. Deals are out there.
My suggestion- buy a $400 Golf, strip it, Put in a race seat & belts, and go RallyXing for a year and develop skills while saving for a used Golf or Neon G2 or P car. That way, you have fun, work on skills at a reasonable cost, and if you buy a Golf Rally car, you then have spares.
Then, rally that at the Club/Regional level for awhile(til you can drive it without lifting the throttle in a CLubRally, and start getting really upset at how it cant go any faster.
Develop into an higher Seed.
At that point, you can choose to spend a BUTT LOAD of money to upgrade to an AWD class(more maintenance, more tires, bigger damage, etc).
I still see that Rally is a great way to beat slower people in faster cars that have spent more than you. Unlike Road racing, where the money/car prep makes more difference, Rally is ripe with people spending lots of dough & driving slow vs people spending less & outdriving them. Just look at Dave Cizmas, finishing 2nd OVERALL in Club at LSPR this year(day 2) in a FWD Golf. That car can be bought from him today for $9000, turn key, and you (once you learn to rally, drift, control the car) could beat PGT WRX's like the one I am building. It all depends on you.
If you really want to, you can find a way to do it. I have 2 kids, a wife, cats, a dog, a house, 2 car payments, etc. I work extra jobs,and I am currently considering selling my 00 RS daily driver to get a cheaper one to further things along too.
Good luck with whatever you decide. But remember, ANY MOTORSPORT IS EXPENSIVE. Research whatever you are considering.
Cheers-
JC
#595
[url]http://www.gnimotorsports.com[/url]
[url]http://rally-tv.com[/url]
My suggestion- buy a $400 Golf, strip it, Put in a race seat & belts, and go RallyXing for a year and develop skills while saving for a used Golf or Neon G2 or P car. That way, you have fun, work on skills at a reasonable cost, and if you buy a Golf Rally car, you then have spares.
Then, rally that at the Club/Regional level for awhile(til you can drive it without lifting the throttle in a CLubRally, and start getting really upset at how it cant go any faster.
Develop into an higher Seed.
At that point, you can choose to spend a BUTT LOAD of money to upgrade to an AWD class(more maintenance, more tires, bigger damage, etc).
I still see that Rally is a great way to beat slower people in faster cars that have spent more than you. Unlike Road racing, where the money/car prep makes more difference, Rally is ripe with people spending lots of dough & driving slow vs people spending less & outdriving them. Just look at Dave Cizmas, finishing 2nd OVERALL in Club at LSPR this year(day 2) in a FWD Golf. That car can be bought from him today for $9000, turn key, and you (once you learn to rally, drift, control the car) could beat PGT WRX's like the one I am building. It all depends on you.
If you really want to, you can find a way to do it. I have 2 kids, a wife, cats, a dog, a house, 2 car payments, etc. I work extra jobs,and I am currently considering selling my 00 RS daily driver to get a cheaper one to further things along too.
Good luck with whatever you decide. But remember, ANY MOTORSPORT IS EXPENSIVE. Research whatever you are considering.
Cheers-
JC
#595
[url]http://www.gnimotorsports.com[/url]
[url]http://rally-tv.com[/url]
| Robin2 | 10-25-2004 11:20 PM |
BOFslime,
For solo2, you can do a full season on less than 1 prorally budget (not including damages to the car during a rally)... I competed in 14 events and a few prosolo in my region and this was my first full season in 2004. Previously I used to do 2-3 events a year but this year I decided to jump in and start here....
I'm looking at doing the full Ontario Regional series (Canadian) solo2 series and most events are about 4-5 hours from my place (so hotel bills are becoming a factor). I'm looking at also solo1 series.... since most events are closer and are back to back (Saturday/Sunday).
For myself, in rallying I crew for a top CDN team.... Evo4. We did also a few US events this year (Maine and Snow Drift) and finished 2nd overall at Maine. In the past 2 years, I've learned a ton on the team... and still have to learn a lot more.... logistics, car prep, suppliers, crew, etc...
I thought about rallying myself before crewing.... and seeing the $$ going into the car and at events, I can't afford it myself.
I first started at rallies in marshalling, security, and then helping in organizing.... and then joined a team.... each field helped a lot..... I even took a co-drivers course.... but found out I couldn't be in that seat.... I enjoy driving too much....
I first say.... join your local rally/solo club and help out.....
I highly recommend taking drivers course at Team Oneil....or the co-drivers course... our co-driver is the one who teaches at Team Oneil school for the codrivers course.
Robin
For solo2, you can do a full season on less than 1 prorally budget (not including damages to the car during a rally)... I competed in 14 events and a few prosolo in my region and this was my first full season in 2004. Previously I used to do 2-3 events a year but this year I decided to jump in and start here....
I'm looking at doing the full Ontario Regional series (Canadian) solo2 series and most events are about 4-5 hours from my place (so hotel bills are becoming a factor). I'm looking at also solo1 series.... since most events are closer and are back to back (Saturday/Sunday).
For myself, in rallying I crew for a top CDN team.... Evo4. We did also a few US events this year (Maine and Snow Drift) and finished 2nd overall at Maine. In the past 2 years, I've learned a ton on the team... and still have to learn a lot more.... logistics, car prep, suppliers, crew, etc...
I thought about rallying myself before crewing.... and seeing the $$ going into the car and at events, I can't afford it myself.
I first started at rallies in marshalling, security, and then helping in organizing.... and then joined a team.... each field helped a lot..... I even took a co-drivers course.... but found out I couldn't be in that seat.... I enjoy driving too much....
I first say.... join your local rally/solo club and help out.....
I highly recommend taking drivers course at Team Oneil....or the co-drivers course... our co-driver is the one who teaches at Team Oneil school for the codrivers course.
Robin
| BOFslime | 10-26-2004 02:06 AM |
All good stuff guy's... I'm pretty sure which direction i want to go now, and its just a matter of time to budget out a way to get into rally, it will be slow, but i'll get there.
| VVVV | 10-26-2004 09:43 AM |
So is there any provision that if you take a course at a school like O'Neil's, that you could be promoted sooner? I can understand that they don't want people killing themselves out there, but I bought an AWD car that I planned to work my way up through rallyx, going to driver school, and entering club rallies, with the full intention to go slow at the start and work my way faster. This new rule means that I have to buy another car altogether. WRC is spending all its time trying to get cheaper, while here everything is getting exponentially more expensive. It will now cost me more than twice as much to get involved in rallying. How far into "the process" must I be?
I wish I lived back in the days when my life was my own and so was my money, back when rally drivers smoked during the race, and helmets were for wimps. Those days when people knew if you died it was your fault, so that was your motivation not to drive the fastest your car could go, regardless of your own capabilities. Is there any illegal underground rallying going on, like 2F2F on dirt where I could take all the risk onto myself and not have to pay someone else in case I may blame them for my own stupidity?
Sorry, rant over. It just seems like the closer I get to getting into rallying, the further away it becomes. Knowing my luck, I'll go out and buy a 1984 GTI only for next year a rule to come out saying all cars have to be 1985 or newer.
I wish I lived back in the days when my life was my own and so was my money, back when rally drivers smoked during the race, and helmets were for wimps. Those days when people knew if you died it was your fault, so that was your motivation not to drive the fastest your car could go, regardless of your own capabilities. Is there any illegal underground rallying going on, like 2F2F on dirt where I could take all the risk onto myself and not have to pay someone else in case I may blame them for my own stupidity?
Sorry, rant over. It just seems like the closer I get to getting into rallying, the further away it becomes. Knowing my luck, I'll go out and buy a 1984 GTI only for next year a rule to come out saying all cars have to be 1985 or newer.
| anders8 | 10-26-2004 10:49 AM |
[QUOTE=VVVV]So is there any provision that if you take a course at a school like O'Neil's, that you could be promoted sooner?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]This new rule means that I have to buy another car altogether.[/QUOTE]
This thread was about cost... it seems you've jumped onto another topic altogether?
Perhaps with some links to what you're talking about, we could address.
?
Anders
[QUOTE]This new rule means that I have to buy another car altogether.[/QUOTE]
This thread was about cost... it seems you've jumped onto another topic altogether?
Perhaps with some links to what you're talking about, we could address.
?
Anders
| dwx | 10-26-2004 11:22 AM |
He is referring to the stuff I posted that I heard in the novice school at LSPR by Bruce. They aren't rules as of yet, but he talked about them as they were fact. He gave them as examples as to why someone who is a new driver will want to get a regular competition license before January.
I know there was a provision previously where Tim O'Neil schools allowed you to skip the ClubRally requirements (finishing position, etc) and get a ProRally license right away.
The biggest thing was not allowing new drivers to drive anything but P or G2 cars.
I figured it was sort of on-topic because the poster is obviously a new driver.
I know there was a provision previously where Tim O'Neil schools allowed you to skip the ClubRally requirements (finishing position, etc) and get a ProRally license right away.
The biggest thing was not allowing new drivers to drive anything but P or G2 cars.
I figured it was sort of on-topic because the poster is obviously a new driver.
| anders8 | 10-26-2004 11:57 AM |
[QUOTE=dwx]He is referring to the stuff I posted that I heard in the novice school at LSPR by Bruce....I figured it was sort of on-topic because the poster is obviously a new driver.[/QUOTE]
Ahh. Right.
I agreel, I don't imagine they wouldn't turn away a 1.8L Sube.
Here's the math:
1.820 Liters (from the manual)
Mulipliers:
AWD 1.3
4 valve 1.2
calculated displacement:
2.8392
Production class limit: 2.650
Is 110 HP really too much?
I thought I also read something where they would handle stuff like this on a case-by-case basis as well.
Anders
Ahh. Right.
I agreel, I don't imagine they wouldn't turn away a 1.8L Sube.
Here's the math:
1.820 Liters (from the manual)
Mulipliers:
AWD 1.3
4 valve 1.2
calculated displacement:
2.8392
Production class limit: 2.650
Is 110 HP really too much?
I thought I also read something where they would handle stuff like this on a case-by-case basis as well.
Anders
| dwx | 10-26-2004 12:36 PM |
Yeah they are just trying to avoid the "Rich guy goes out and gets open class WRX or EVO for first rally and kills himself" scenario.
| JC_595 | 10-26-2004 12:42 PM |
yup, on the RA site [url]http://www.rally-america.com[/url] they siad in the Q&A pdf that AWD people that have already invested will be taken on a case by case basis.
It will help your cause immensly by attending Tim's school.
But, it really wont cost that much to buy a used G2 or P car if the AWD car you currently have is your daily driver that you are saving to convert to rally duty. Just dont start building the AWD yet, buy, drive, advance, sell, move up.
2wd "beginner" cars can go jsut about as fast with talent behind the wheel, and are now starting to get recognized- look at ss.com's forums where people really are impressed. It makes me miss Rocky(our GTI), cuz it was far cheaper to fix(cost me a whopping total of $700 to fix after rolling the car last year). Ya cant beat that with a stick!
It will help your cause immensly by attending Tim's school.
But, it really wont cost that much to buy a used G2 or P car if the AWD car you currently have is your daily driver that you are saving to convert to rally duty. Just dont start building the AWD yet, buy, drive, advance, sell, move up.
2wd "beginner" cars can go jsut about as fast with talent behind the wheel, and are now starting to get recognized- look at ss.com's forums where people really are impressed. It makes me miss Rocky(our GTI), cuz it was far cheaper to fix(cost me a whopping total of $700 to fix after rolling the car last year). Ya cant beat that with a stick!
| Robin2 | 10-26-2004 12:59 PM |
1.8L impreza are in Production 3 class in Canada..... RS and WRX are in P4.....
Robin
Robin
| RB5 Clone | 10-26-2004 02:49 PM |
Rallying depends on a fairly simple cost equation: The less time you want to spend before you own a rally car and go racing, the more $$$ you need to spend.
Here's a better way to get into it-gradually
go to a rally, chat up some buddys in service area
go to a few rallies with them as part of service crew, fixing bent cars, scrounging parts off spectator vehicles, hauling busted cars out of woods, etc
gain confidence of driver so they'll let you sit in right seat and co-drive
co-drive a couple years, let someone else spend cubic $$ while you learn how to economize, how to make cars go fast, keep em together, run a team, etc. you will need this knowledge when YOU are the car owner!
buy a built-up car and rallyx it a season; take O'Neil school. We did that starting out...money spent on driver training is by far the most cost-effective go-faster-safer-break-less-stuff money we've ever spent rallying
then do some regional/club events, you'll be much safer and faster due to all of above experience and patience
also realize that you WILL go into the hole monetarily...how far depends on how bad you get addicted to rally madness
cheers, don't give up before ya get started! I went to my first Pro event back in 2001, and now look at me....totally consumed by rally. Yeah!
Dave G
Last Ditch Racing :huh:
Here's a better way to get into it-gradually
go to a rally, chat up some buddys in service area
go to a few rallies with them as part of service crew, fixing bent cars, scrounging parts off spectator vehicles, hauling busted cars out of woods, etc
gain confidence of driver so they'll let you sit in right seat and co-drive
co-drive a couple years, let someone else spend cubic $$ while you learn how to economize, how to make cars go fast, keep em together, run a team, etc. you will need this knowledge when YOU are the car owner!
buy a built-up car and rallyx it a season; take O'Neil school. We did that starting out...money spent on driver training is by far the most cost-effective go-faster-safer-break-less-stuff money we've ever spent rallying
then do some regional/club events, you'll be much safer and faster due to all of above experience and patience
also realize that you WILL go into the hole monetarily...how far depends on how bad you get addicted to rally madness
cheers, don't give up before ya get started! I went to my first Pro event back in 2001, and now look at me....totally consumed by rally. Yeah!
Dave G
Last Ditch Racing :huh:
| LyveWRX | 10-26-2004 06:56 PM |
I dont know where you're at [BOFslime] but you might also want to look into TSD rally. The most a weekend has cost me in the last two seasons [Detroit Region] is for POR and only around $400. Thats for a two day 29 hour event covering 650mi of road.
| randy zimmer | 10-26-2004 07:20 PM |
wow!
�
�
Put RALLY in the title and look who it attracts.
Just about all the "usual suspects" have put their input into this and it looks like BO has a plan.
The new rule looks like it was put in the '05 book after many of us complained the most potentially dangerous thing SCCA was involved in, could be entered with a two hour school. Without a mature support system of schools and instruction, it looks like a couple classes were picked as having the lowest risk for newbies.
A good thing about SCCA leaving is that the new regime doesn't have to have everything set in stone and there's a possibility that sitting down with a new recruit and having a bit of a talk with them could go far in getting the required response. I've looked in some guys' (good, eh Anders) eyes and seen the back of their head. Probably not a good risk out in the woods. Be realistic in your goals, be respectful and you could probably talk your way into using a non-rated car, but be sure to keep your end of the deal.
Actually, I think the dumbest place to learn racing is out in the woods. Learn timing and pace with Solo. Learn lines, braking, overtaking and equipment prep with road-racing. Practice loose surface and more timing with rally-X. Do all the ice racing you can and THEN go into the woods.
When I was working in a fab shop building factory Trans-Am cars, I asked Frank Williams for a job. He said to move to Europe and get a job on a FF team and when I was ready, he'd call me. I was mad at his answer but now that I know better, it would have been the right thing to do.
You can be mad at me for my advice but that doesn't make it wrong.
rz
Just about all the "usual suspects" have put their input into this and it looks like BO has a plan.
The new rule looks like it was put in the '05 book after many of us complained the most potentially dangerous thing SCCA was involved in, could be entered with a two hour school. Without a mature support system of schools and instruction, it looks like a couple classes were picked as having the lowest risk for newbies.
A good thing about SCCA leaving is that the new regime doesn't have to have everything set in stone and there's a possibility that sitting down with a new recruit and having a bit of a talk with them could go far in getting the required response. I've looked in some guys' (good, eh Anders) eyes and seen the back of their head. Probably not a good risk out in the woods. Be realistic in your goals, be respectful and you could probably talk your way into using a non-rated car, but be sure to keep your end of the deal.
Actually, I think the dumbest place to learn racing is out in the woods. Learn timing and pace with Solo. Learn lines, braking, overtaking and equipment prep with road-racing. Practice loose surface and more timing with rally-X. Do all the ice racing you can and THEN go into the woods.
When I was working in a fab shop building factory Trans-Am cars, I asked Frank Williams for a job. He said to move to Europe and get a job on a FF team and when I was ready, he'd call me. I was mad at his answer but now that I know better, it would have been the right thing to do.
You can be mad at me for my advice but that doesn't make it wrong.
rz
| akuhner | 10-27-2004 10:14 AM |
Are there many FWD Subaru rally cars out there? I only know of the one that SubieGal used to have. With my ties to North Coast Subaru it's simply not cost effective for me to own anything other than a Subaru (not even for a street car!), but I still don't want to build myself an Impreza 1.8L FWD rally car from scratch. Building a car would be a big waste if you are only going to spend a year or so in it trying to get out of Seed 8 to move up to a big boy car...
Here's an idea - Buy a nice rally built Legacy Turbo, and a donor FWD Legacy 2.2L. Drop the turbo drive train and put it on ice while you use the FWD setup to get out of Seed 8. Would that be legal for Group 2? hummmmm ;)
Alex
Here's an idea - Buy a nice rally built Legacy Turbo, and a donor FWD Legacy 2.2L. Drop the turbo drive train and put it on ice while you use the FWD setup to get out of Seed 8. Would that be legal for Group 2? hummmmm ;)
Alex
| VVVV | 10-27-2004 12:16 PM |
Yeah, sorry. I took all of the colorado rally mailing list discussions, other forum discussions, and news clippings on the new rules and just barfed all over your page. I was referring to the noob rules about starting in G2 or production. I was under the impression that the rule would stand, since Rally America adopted the 2005 SCCA rules. I was planning on spending at least a year on the RallyX circuit and attending a rally school before I ever attempted a club rally. I just wanted to be able to do 1-2 club rallies per year, and just continue doing RallyX. No offense, but I just wanted there to be some middle ground between going poor and no racing at all.
So back on subject, how well would a pre-prepped Group 2 rally car hold its value? If I spend $4000-$6000 now, how much could I expect to recover if I sold it in 3-5 years (assuming I didn't wreck or roll in that time)? I was assuming that it would only be worth its scrap metal, with wear and tear, and regulations requiring upgraded equipment.
edit: From what I have seen, the best car to use to go from 2WD and convert it to AWD is the DSMs.
So back on subject, how well would a pre-prepped Group 2 rally car hold its value? If I spend $4000-$6000 now, how much could I expect to recover if I sold it in 3-5 years (assuming I didn't wreck or roll in that time)? I was assuming that it would only be worth its scrap metal, with wear and tear, and regulations requiring upgraded equipment.
edit: From what I have seen, the best car to use to go from 2WD and convert it to AWD is the DSMs.
| anders8 | 10-27-2004 12:55 PM |
[QUOTE=VVVV] how well would a pre-prepped Group 2 rally car hold its value?[/QUOTE]
This question goes in the entirely wrong direction.
If you want a car to hold value, don't race it. You MUST imagine that as soon as you roll up to the start of that first stage, you are ready to throw all that money in the trash can. You can't plan anything if you are imagining that the car will be worth something later.
You buy the car, it's worth X.
You race the car, it's worth 0.
When you stop racing the car, it's worth X/10, if you include 3x the spares that you got with it.
Racing is throwing away money.
:(
Anders
(of course, this doesn't detract from racing's awesomeness! ;) )
This question goes in the entirely wrong direction.
If you want a car to hold value, don't race it. You MUST imagine that as soon as you roll up to the start of that first stage, you are ready to throw all that money in the trash can. You can't plan anything if you are imagining that the car will be worth something later.
You buy the car, it's worth X.
You race the car, it's worth 0.
When you stop racing the car, it's worth X/10, if you include 3x the spares that you got with it.
Racing is throwing away money.
:(
Anders
(of course, this doesn't detract from racing's awesomeness! ;) )
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