| Midnight_Gold | 02-24-2005 01:15 PM |
Solo2 n00b Discussion: Competition
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A couple of years ago, I was lucky enough to meet some very amazing people. While eating with them at a Ruby Tuesday in Topeka, KS, I was also lucky enough to be let in on a pretty interesting tire discussion. Three heavy competitors shared some pretty awesome information that day; information that inevitably led to a National championship and some :eek: from spectators. That situation wasn�t an isolated incident, either. During that year, I was also lucky enough to get to know some more amazing people, and many of those people have bent over backwards to offer me any assistance possible (thanks for the codrive offer, Jen ;)), even though I was technically a competitor. Well, I [i]almost[/i] put up a fight. :lol: Well anyway...... now that I am prepping an ESP car for this year (and I'm getting to see just how aggressively people hold on to their secrets), I am beginning to come to the question:
While competitors can become friends, can friends become competitors? At what point does friendship fall by the wayside? And why, oh why, will competitors who�ve become friends help you out when friends who�ve become competitors won�t?
It may seem odd, but I�ve been watching a lot of people over the past year and a half. It never ceases to amaze me: the ends some people will go to keep secrets and other information from one another. Yet, those same people will share that information with others. Isn�t this amateur racing supposed to be about having fun?
Perhaps my mindset isn�t quite up to that competitive cut-throat quality that I�ve witnessed in some others� so can you make some sense of this?
~ Miranda :D
While competitors can become friends, can friends become competitors? At what point does friendship fall by the wayside? And why, oh why, will competitors who�ve become friends help you out when friends who�ve become competitors won�t?
It may seem odd, but I�ve been watching a lot of people over the past year and a half. It never ceases to amaze me: the ends some people will go to keep secrets and other information from one another. Yet, those same people will share that information with others. Isn�t this amateur racing supposed to be about having fun?
Perhaps my mindset isn�t quite up to that competitive cut-throat quality that I�ve witnessed in some others� so can you make some sense of this?
~ Miranda :D
| wrx2.0 555 | 02-24-2005 01:43 PM |
------Man more competitive than woman-------
| Midnight_Gold | 02-24-2005 01:46 PM |
Yeah, but friends are friends, right? How close do you have to be with someone before that means something?
| wrx2.0 555 | 02-24-2005 01:58 PM |
I agree...I was just being silly....... :)
If we were discussing a form of racing that had real $$$$ at stake and real sponsor potential at stake, then yeh, I could see some secrecy.
But, in Solo 2, whats the real point, other than braggin rights? This is not a career, its for FUN... Not that I'm not competitive on the course or disappointed if I lose, but I always have a great time.
Some people must feel they need that [I]assumed[/I] edge.
If you drive well, you will win. If several of you drive [B]that[/B] well, then its a roll of the dice. I just dont believe a tweak here or a tweak there is gonna win ya the race.
As Tom has put it before and I have seen, someone like him or MK can show up in a bone stock WRX and kick most of our ass'....so the secrecy is kinda moot if you drive that well....
Scott
If we were discussing a form of racing that had real $$$$ at stake and real sponsor potential at stake, then yeh, I could see some secrecy.
But, in Solo 2, whats the real point, other than braggin rights? This is not a career, its for FUN... Not that I'm not competitive on the course or disappointed if I lose, but I always have a great time.
Some people must feel they need that [I]assumed[/I] edge.
If you drive well, you will win. If several of you drive [B]that[/B] well, then its a roll of the dice. I just dont believe a tweak here or a tweak there is gonna win ya the race.
As Tom has put it before and I have seen, someone like him or MK can show up in a bone stock WRX and kick most of our ass'....so the secrecy is kinda moot if you drive that well....
Scott
| omahasubaru | 02-24-2005 02:01 PM |
[quote]While competitors can become friends, can friends become competitors?[/quote]
YES!
That is what has happened to me more than anything... I have friends, share my knowledge and then then become competitors. It's all good. I've even made friends with a competitor having not know them until they showed up at an event and started handing my my arse. Of course most are Subaru folks. We are a different bunch for the most part.
This is all on a local level where it is all supposed to be about fun.
Nationaly, people are much more tight lipped. Nothing wrong with that... it's only a secret for a while... once you bring it out to an event or to nationals, it isn't a secret anymore. You can only hide so much. A good driver should be fast in no matter what they drive. A good driver in an under prepared car can beat someone with a higher level prepared car, but with less skill... to a point.
So basically... YES, There can be both.
YES!
That is what has happened to me more than anything... I have friends, share my knowledge and then then become competitors. It's all good. I've even made friends with a competitor having not know them until they showed up at an event and started handing my my arse. Of course most are Subaru folks. We are a different bunch for the most part.
This is all on a local level where it is all supposed to be about fun.
Nationaly, people are much more tight lipped. Nothing wrong with that... it's only a secret for a while... once you bring it out to an event or to nationals, it isn't a secret anymore. You can only hide so much. A good driver should be fast in no matter what they drive. A good driver in an under prepared car can beat someone with a higher level prepared car, but with less skill... to a point.
So basically... YES, There can be both.
| Midnight_Gold | 02-24-2005 02:02 PM |
Well, I have experienced two completely different sides of the spectrum myself, and I don't get it.
Courtney offered me his car at Nationals when his codriver protested Tom. Jen offered me hers at the same time (and she and I were same class direct competitors). On the other hand, there have been times when others have opted not to help me, even though I'm just a peon. :lol:
~ Miranda
Courtney offered me his car at Nationals when his codriver protested Tom. Jen offered me hers at the same time (and she and I were same class direct competitors). On the other hand, there have been times when others have opted not to help me, even though I'm just a peon. :lol:
~ Miranda
| dwx | 02-24-2005 02:07 PM |
I certainly think you can be competitive with someone and be friends as well. Most of the friends I've made through autocross have competed in the same class I do, and I've never really had any conflict with anyone. Most of the people I've met autocrossing are pretty laid back though, there are certainly other personalities that aren't.
Vic Sias put up a page for all of the guys that run SM nationally to put up dyno plots and specs of their cars. I've talked to other SM competitors extensively about their setups, everyone is very forthcoming about car setups. Of course that's a class with unlimited rules where little things aren't going to make a big difference one way or the other. I can say autocross isn't professional racing, but it's still competitive racing. If I found something that would help me go faster on the autocross course, I'd probably post it here, but that's just the kind of person I am, not everyone is like that.
Vic Sias put up a page for all of the guys that run SM nationally to put up dyno plots and specs of their cars. I've talked to other SM competitors extensively about their setups, everyone is very forthcoming about car setups. Of course that's a class with unlimited rules where little things aren't going to make a big difference one way or the other. I can say autocross isn't professional racing, but it's still competitive racing. If I found something that would help me go faster on the autocross course, I'd probably post it here, but that's just the kind of person I am, not everyone is like that.
| trhoppe | 02-24-2005 02:08 PM |
I think it all depends on the type of person you are dealing with per situation. The person's character or the situation influences how they will react. I know people that would bend over backwards to help ANYONE, competitor or not, while others, when asked stuff as simple as "hey, what tire pressures you think I should run", tell me that "I don't like to share that kind of info with competitors".
While usually I am very open about stuff, including posting my setup on the internet, I do like to keep a few certain "secret" things up my sleeve. I'm not going to totally show my hand, when car setup and tweaking is a big part of this sport. The tire thing last year was definetly a good example.
-Tom
While usually I am very open about stuff, including posting my setup on the internet, I do like to keep a few certain "secret" things up my sleeve. I'm not going to totally show my hand, when car setup and tweaking is a big part of this sport. The tire thing last year was definetly a good example.
-Tom
| joey1313 | 02-24-2005 02:09 PM |
It's not just racing that happens in. I work in the IT field and some people just refuse to give away any knowledge. With racing as in my job, I will give you all my knowledge. I want you to learn it better than I did, so that I may learn from you one day.
| KC | 02-24-2005 02:10 PM |
I misundersttod the question. Baleeted.
| Midnight_Gold | 02-24-2005 02:10 PM |
:lol:
It's amazing how some people will give you the clothes off their back or the keys to their cars, while some won't even give you directions to the bathroom or other equally vital info. :lol:
But you know, for every one of those people, there are a million and one awesome people too. I've learned so much from sooo many people, even people like MK and KC (who were really nice to me even though I was with Tom) ;).
~ Miranda
It's amazing how some people will give you the clothes off their back or the keys to their cars, while some won't even give you directions to the bathroom or other equally vital info. :lol:
But you know, for every one of those people, there are a million and one awesome people too. I've learned so much from sooo many people, even people like MK and KC (who were really nice to me even though I was with Tom) ;).
~ Miranda
| trhoppe | 02-24-2005 02:12 PM |
[quote]But they only share those secrets with those they trust. [/quote] Bingo
-Tom
-Tom
| KC | 02-24-2005 02:14 PM |
YEah... that's the crux of it.
There are some that will do what they can to win no matter what.
I've shared almost everything when I was in STX. Just made the class stronger. You're going to find out sooner or later.
However, I will say this... I'm not sharing much this year, because I don't know the guys I'm running against.
Like Tom quoetd me before I deleted it, It's a thing of Trust. :)
--kC
There are some that will do what they can to win no matter what.
I've shared almost everything when I was in STX. Just made the class stronger. You're going to find out sooner or later.
However, I will say this... I'm not sharing much this year, because I don't know the guys I'm running against.
Like Tom quoetd me before I deleted it, It's a thing of Trust. :)
--kC
| joey1313 | 02-24-2005 02:16 PM |
Mr. Hoppe is a prime example of a great guy. I sent him a pm about car setup and he gave me a laundry list of parts(including part #s), alignment specs, etc. He is a National Champ and still took the time to answer my questions(probably the same ones he gets a million times a day). I do have some more questions for ya though.
| trhoppe | 02-24-2005 02:18 PM |
IBEveryonelaughsatjoe1313becauseI'manelitistass
:lol:
-Tom
who's new years resolution to be nice to people is still working
:lol:
-Tom
who's new years resolution to be nice to people is still working
| Scooby South | 02-24-2005 02:20 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]IBEveryonelaughsatjoe1313becauseI'manelitistass
:lol:
-Tom
who's new years resolution to be nice to people is still working[/QUOTE]
hmmmmmmm....:D
:lol:
-Tom
who's new years resolution to be nice to people is still working[/QUOTE]
hmmmmmmm....:D
| Midnight_Gold | 02-24-2005 02:21 PM |
[QUOTE=joey1313]Mr. Hoppe is a prime example of a great guy. I sent him a pm about car setup and he gave me a laundry list of parts(including part #s), alignment specs, etc. He is a National Champ and still took the time to answer my questions(probably the same ones he gets a million times a day). I do have some more questions for ya though.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, Tom's always been really good about helping others out, especially when they have specific questions.
Yeah, Tom's always been really good about helping others out, especially when they have specific questions.
| Midnight_Gold | 02-24-2005 02:22 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]IBEveryonelaughsatjoe1313becauseI'manelitistass
[/QUOTE]
Well, at least [i]some[/i] of us *cough*me*cough* are exercising remarkable restraint in this thread. :lol:
~ Miranda
[/QUOTE]
Well, at least [i]some[/i] of us *cough*me*cough* are exercising remarkable restraint in this thread. :lol:
~ Miranda
| Scooby Freak | 02-24-2005 02:25 PM |
Keep your friends close & your enemies closer.
| KC | 02-24-2005 02:26 PM |
[QUOTE=joey1313]Mr. Hoppe is a prime example of a great guy. I sent him a pm about car setup and he gave me a laundry list of parts(including part #s), alignment specs, etc. He is a National Champ and still took the time to answer my questions(probably the same ones he gets a million times a day). I do have some more questions for ya though.[/QUOTE]
:lol:
It's really easy to cut and paste from old e-mails. Don't feel so special. :lol:
--KC
(Oh come on, don't tell me you never did that) :angel:
:lol:
It's really easy to cut and paste from old e-mails. Don't feel so special. :lol:
--KC
(Oh come on, don't tell me you never did that) :angel:
| joey1313 | 02-24-2005 02:36 PM |
:( I am not so special afterall :(
| trhoppe | 02-24-2005 02:55 PM |
:lol: :lol:
-Tom
who probably should have a copy for copy & pasting saved, but writes the stuff out by hand every time someone asks
-Tom
who probably should have a copy for copy & pasting saved, but writes the stuff out by hand every time someone asks
| wrx2.0 555 | 02-24-2005 03:04 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]-Tom
who's new years resolution to be nice to people is still working[/QUOTE]
I was surprised that you actually asked if I was being sarcastic or not in another thread.....
I guess its working........ :devil: ;)
-Scott
who isnt competitive enough for anyone to care what my setup is.
who's new years resolution to be nice to people is still working[/QUOTE]
I was surprised that you actually asked if I was being sarcastic or not in another thread.....
I guess its working........ :devil: ;)
-Scott
who isnt competitive enough for anyone to care what my setup is.
| joey1313 | 02-24-2005 03:07 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]:lol: :lol:
-Tom
who probably should have a copy for copy & pasting saved, but writes the stuff out by hand every time someone asks[/QUOTE]
:banana: I feel special again :banana:
-Tom
who probably should have a copy for copy & pasting saved, but writes the stuff out by hand every time someone asks[/QUOTE]
:banana: I feel special again :banana:
| AUTOwrXER | 02-24-2005 03:22 PM |
Miranda - perhaps you are assuming that friends should share everything, when in fact the nature of competition is to gain an advantage, Just because someone won't share their setup with you, doesn't mean that they don't like you. Many of the top autocrossers will keep everything to themselves, whereas people like Bob Tunnel, Vic Sias, Sam Strano, etc can help their own livelyhood by sharing information. For example, Sam is happy to tell you exactly what was on his ESP championship-winning car, and even quote you on a package deal for the parts ;)
You are also in a unique sitatuion in that you may be new to autocross, but you will have a top-level co-driver who will compete for a national championship. If it was just you in the car, ESP competitors may not be so guarded. It's the other person in the car who might edge them out by .1 second for the title that is also a factor.
Personally, I am rather open with the more generic items. However, there are some things which take a huge investment of time and resources that I keep to myself initially. Eventually everything is out in the open, but the payback for that time and effort is an initial advantage over the field, which is the development aspect of competition (as opposed to the driving aspect highlighted at the beginning of this thread). I am currently working on 4 things which should be unique to ESP when I complete the car. They may work, or they may be failures, but it was my initiative to get them done and I'll share my secrets when I'm ready :)
The other major item in my book is making sure that the folks who have helped me develop these new items are financially compensated for their (potential) popularity. If I were in their shoes making a living out of these products, I'd expect the same. When Sam Strano or Scott Siegel or Kevin Madden work with me to develop a product, I want them to benefit from the resulting sales.
Joel Fehrman
You are also in a unique sitatuion in that you may be new to autocross, but you will have a top-level co-driver who will compete for a national championship. If it was just you in the car, ESP competitors may not be so guarded. It's the other person in the car who might edge them out by .1 second for the title that is also a factor.
Personally, I am rather open with the more generic items. However, there are some things which take a huge investment of time and resources that I keep to myself initially. Eventually everything is out in the open, but the payback for that time and effort is an initial advantage over the field, which is the development aspect of competition (as opposed to the driving aspect highlighted at the beginning of this thread). I am currently working on 4 things which should be unique to ESP when I complete the car. They may work, or they may be failures, but it was my initiative to get them done and I'll share my secrets when I'm ready :)
The other major item in my book is making sure that the folks who have helped me develop these new items are financially compensated for their (potential) popularity. If I were in their shoes making a living out of these products, I'd expect the same. When Sam Strano or Scott Siegel or Kevin Madden work with me to develop a product, I want them to benefit from the resulting sales.
Joel Fehrman
| Draken | 02-24-2005 03:37 PM |
Most of what I have done or will do to my car will be shared to the public. A few of the interesting items and specific setup items (strut valving, alignment, etc) will be shared with only a select few who i know/trust. And ironically, the ones i trust are the ones who are now friends, but use to be direct competitors.
Chris H.
Chris H.
| Georgethefierce | 02-24-2005 03:39 PM |
GTF wouldn't piss on the competition if they were on fire!!!!!!!
In other words I have no secrets worthy of sharing........
In other words I have no secrets worthy of sharing........
| Midnight_Gold | 02-24-2005 03:40 PM |
*edit* This is response to Joel:
Hmm.. you may have a good point as it pertains to Tommyboy. As a matter of fact, he and I have recently had to sit down and attempt to re-evaluate the roles we have been filling as it pertains to this car. While he is still an indispensible member of this team, this is still primarily [i]my[/i] car and [i]my[/i] effort. I certainly hope that his involvement with my car would not be something that would damage the openness I have with other competitors. I would think it very sad for that to start now, since it was never the case when Tom was letting me codrive HIS WRX in STX.
As much as I can understand keeping secrets to give yourself an added edge, I think you and I are talking about two completely different things. I'm not concerned about whether or not people like me. I'm concerned with the breakdowns and buildups in friendships as it pertains to being competitors. Why might Jen Croy, whose husband is Tom's direct competitor, be so open and warm with me while someone like you're talking about would be so tight-lipped because of Tom? I don't think it has as much to do with Tom being a national champ. I think that, given the openness of people like KC and Steve, your argument really just emphasizes what Tom said - peoples' character and each individual situation will dictate how friends act as competitors. I totally agree with that, because it did a great job of answering my question.
As for compensation (assuming that your development secret is out and everyone knows about it).. Say UR makes a kickass pulley (which they do! :D). Company X sells that pulley. It's quite obvious to me that UR will sell the pulley to company X for say, $5. Company X then sells that pulley for $7. As much as I might love to work with company X, I equally love my $2. If I can buy from UR, I will definitely do so. If I call UR and they tell me I have to go through company X, that's one thing. What can I say.. I'm a "hear it from the horse's mouth" kinda gal. ;) Call me Tom, but I've always thought the best way to promote a company is to plop a sticker on the car! :lol: Yes, I am that ricer!
~ Miranda
Hmm.. you may have a good point as it pertains to Tommyboy. As a matter of fact, he and I have recently had to sit down and attempt to re-evaluate the roles we have been filling as it pertains to this car. While he is still an indispensible member of this team, this is still primarily [i]my[/i] car and [i]my[/i] effort. I certainly hope that his involvement with my car would not be something that would damage the openness I have with other competitors. I would think it very sad for that to start now, since it was never the case when Tom was letting me codrive HIS WRX in STX.
As much as I can understand keeping secrets to give yourself an added edge, I think you and I are talking about two completely different things. I'm not concerned about whether or not people like me. I'm concerned with the breakdowns and buildups in friendships as it pertains to being competitors. Why might Jen Croy, whose husband is Tom's direct competitor, be so open and warm with me while someone like you're talking about would be so tight-lipped because of Tom? I don't think it has as much to do with Tom being a national champ. I think that, given the openness of people like KC and Steve, your argument really just emphasizes what Tom said - peoples' character and each individual situation will dictate how friends act as competitors. I totally agree with that, because it did a great job of answering my question.
As for compensation (assuming that your development secret is out and everyone knows about it).. Say UR makes a kickass pulley (which they do! :D). Company X sells that pulley. It's quite obvious to me that UR will sell the pulley to company X for say, $5. Company X then sells that pulley for $7. As much as I might love to work with company X, I equally love my $2. If I can buy from UR, I will definitely do so. If I call UR and they tell me I have to go through company X, that's one thing. What can I say.. I'm a "hear it from the horse's mouth" kinda gal. ;) Call me Tom, but I've always thought the best way to promote a company is to plop a sticker on the car! :lol: Yes, I am that ricer!
~ Miranda
| Midnight_Gold | 02-24-2005 03:42 PM |
[QUOTE=Draken]And ironically, the ones i trust are the ones who are now friends, but use to be direct competitors.
Chris H.[/QUOTE]
My point exactly! I'd like to think that Jen is a REALLY close weekend warrior buddy of mine now.. I don't think there's anything she could ask me that I wouldn't gladly answer. But then again, she and I have shared experiences that have made us very close.
~ Miranda
Chris H.[/QUOTE]
My point exactly! I'd like to think that Jen is a REALLY close weekend warrior buddy of mine now.. I don't think there's anything she could ask me that I wouldn't gladly answer. But then again, she and I have shared experiences that have made us very close.
~ Miranda
| Draken | 02-24-2005 03:59 PM |
[QUOTE=Midnight_Gold]But then again, she and I have shared experiences that have made us very close.
~ Miranda[/QUOTE]
Same goes for me and Tom. He's a really good cuddler.
~ Miranda[/QUOTE]
Same goes for me and Tom. He's a really good cuddler.
| AUTOwrXER | 02-24-2005 04:38 PM |
[QUOTE=Midnight_Gold]As for compensation (assuming that your development secret is out and everyone knows about it).. Say UR makes a kickass pulley (which they do! :D). Company X sells that pulley. It's quite obvious to me that UR will sell the pulley to company X for say, $5. Company X then sells that pulley for $7. As much as I might love to work with company X, I equally love my $2. If I can buy from UR, I will definitely do so. If I call UR and they tell me I have to go through company X, that's one thing. What can I say.. I'm a "hear it from the horse's mouth" kinda gal. ;) Call me Tom, but I've always thought the best way to promote a company is to plop a sticker on the car! :lol: Yes, I am that ricer!
~ Miranda[/QUOTE]
In this case, that's not a correct model at all. What you are describing is a direct business versus a retailer. The people/businesses that I am working with to develop these products work through retailers to handle their sales, hence the reason I wouldn't put consumers directly in contact with them.
*edit* And to my previous point, I have also been working through specific retailers on this development, which is why I would recommend those retailers once the products are fully released and the secret is out. A good example of this is the work I am doing through Sam Strano on a FSB. Once we're done testing, I'd point folks back to Sam for the bar.
~ Miranda[/QUOTE]
In this case, that's not a correct model at all. What you are describing is a direct business versus a retailer. The people/businesses that I am working with to develop these products work through retailers to handle their sales, hence the reason I wouldn't put consumers directly in contact with them.
*edit* And to my previous point, I have also been working through specific retailers on this development, which is why I would recommend those retailers once the products are fully released and the secret is out. A good example of this is the work I am doing through Sam Strano on a FSB. Once we're done testing, I'd point folks back to Sam for the bar.
| EHK | 02-24-2005 04:40 PM |
All I have to say is....
When do I get to drive?
But seriously, you find autocrossers pretending to be your best friend, as long as you are giving what they need. Realize that these people, who are willing to lie, cheat and protest their way along the edge of greatness, are just that, on the edge. Every once in a while just give one of them a push and see how far they drop. I promise to laugh loudly, with you!
I am not however refering to any specific relationship you have, just in general terms about the people I have met autocrossing. Some really are and will be your friend, whether you see them once a year or all the time. Some just want what you have (keep Tom under lock and key :lol: ).
OH, BTW, we are having another child, due in late May...its a BOY!
Peace!
Eric
When do I get to drive?
But seriously, you find autocrossers pretending to be your best friend, as long as you are giving what they need. Realize that these people, who are willing to lie, cheat and protest their way along the edge of greatness, are just that, on the edge. Every once in a while just give one of them a push and see how far they drop. I promise to laugh loudly, with you!
I am not however refering to any specific relationship you have, just in general terms about the people I have met autocrossing. Some really are and will be your friend, whether you see them once a year or all the time. Some just want what you have (keep Tom under lock and key :lol: ).
OH, BTW, we are having another child, due in late May...its a BOY!
Peace!
Eric
| trhoppe | 02-24-2005 04:59 PM |
[quote]OH, BTW, we are having another child, due in late May...its a BOY![/quote] Congrats!!!
-Tom
-Tom
| PhilC | 02-24-2005 05:05 PM |
[QUOTE=Midnight_Gold]Why might Jen Croy, whose husband is Tom's direct competitor, be so open and warm with me while someone like you're talking about would be so tight-lipped because of Tom?
~ Miranda[/QUOTE]
You hear that Tom, I'm a competitor. :disco:
The tire thing is a big one that gets brought up and here's my thought on the matter. KC worked to develop the contacts that got him the information, Tom and Steve bought the beer that made KC spill the beans, and then all three of them spent the money to try it out and figure out if it worked (and that's not an insignificant investment). Actually come to think of it the bar bill for a Subaru gathering isn't an insignificant investment either. All told I think that they earned the right to keep it secret and use it to their advantage and I don't view it as them not communicating it to me even though by then I did consider them friends (well Tom and Steve, I didn't get to meet KC until Nationals). What does it do for the rest of us? It encourages me to develop my own contacts and to do the testing that will find me a trick if possible. And it encourages us all to buy more beer. :lol:
~ Miranda[/QUOTE]
You hear that Tom, I'm a competitor. :disco:
The tire thing is a big one that gets brought up and here's my thought on the matter. KC worked to develop the contacts that got him the information, Tom and Steve bought the beer that made KC spill the beans, and then all three of them spent the money to try it out and figure out if it worked (and that's not an insignificant investment). Actually come to think of it the bar bill for a Subaru gathering isn't an insignificant investment either. All told I think that they earned the right to keep it secret and use it to their advantage and I don't view it as them not communicating it to me even though by then I did consider them friends (well Tom and Steve, I didn't get to meet KC until Nationals). What does it do for the rest of us? It encourages me to develop my own contacts and to do the testing that will find me a trick if possible. And it encourages us all to buy more beer. :lol:
| KC | 02-24-2005 05:23 PM |
Mmmmm Beer. The solution to, and the cause of all of lifes problems. Aahuhuauhauha
| trhoppe | 02-24-2005 05:30 PM |
Actually, the tires weren't that expensive, but believeyoume when I can tell you HOW MUCH OF A PAIN IN THE ASS it was trying to get them shaved, tested, shipped back to mass for KC to test. Jeeezus. I went through like 3 shops to shave since they were so low profile. One shop destroyed one tire, had to get another one. fun fun fun. Ended up getting shipped to KC, then shipped to me, then shipped out to a shop, shipped back to me, taken to another shop, shipped out to another shop, then shipped back to me, then tested, then finally to KC :lol:
And Steve got a free ride too, bastard, he was just told "shutyourtrap and buy them" :lol:
-Tom
And Steve got a free ride too, bastard, he was just told "shutyourtrap and buy them" :lol:
-Tom
| AUTOwrXER | 02-24-2005 05:42 PM |
I still want to know what your damn bodykit idea in STX was though...
| joey1313 | 02-24-2005 05:49 PM |
Don't forget the contribution that you guys make to sport by giving us new people tips. You make autox much more fun for those of us who will never go to Nationals, by helping us to at least get a basic setup that will compete locally. A lot of us don't have the time or resources to test which parts may or may not work well. You help us by letting us know what works and what doesn't so we don't have to waste money buying sway bars from 3 different companies. Keeping secrets from those you compete with is just natural. If having a better tire setup helps you achieve your goal, keep it secret. We all want to win.
Part of my love affair with Subaru is that anelitestassliketrhoppe and KC and many others will help out the small guy.
Good luck to all of you and Thanks for all the help.
Part of my love affair with Subaru is that anelitestassliketrhoppe and KC and many others will help out the small guy.
Good luck to all of you and Thanks for all the help.
| Midnight_Gold | 02-24-2005 07:34 PM |
[QUOTE]
Part of my love affair with Subaru is that anelitestassliketrhoppe and KC and many others will help out the small guy.[/QUOTE]
Unless you're associated with either of them, apparently... then you're left out to dry. :lol: Just don't tell anyone you know them, mmmmkay?
[quote]But seriously, you find autocrossers pretending to be your best friend, as long as you are giving what they need. Realize that these people, who are willing to lie, cheat and protest their way along the edge of greatness, are just that, on the edge. Every once in a while just give one of them a push and see how far they drop. I promise to laugh loudly, with you![/quote]
Well, I will certainly say this much: I *hope* that most people out there just want to get a little extra edge. That's not to say that you shouldn't remember who gave you the cold shoulder and who didn't the next time they need a favor, but I would hope that in a community like this, there's none of that foolishness in the first place. Though I suppose that it does make success that much sweeter, huh?
~ Miranda
Part of my love affair with Subaru is that anelitestassliketrhoppe and KC and many others will help out the small guy.[/QUOTE]
Unless you're associated with either of them, apparently... then you're left out to dry. :lol: Just don't tell anyone you know them, mmmmkay?
[quote]But seriously, you find autocrossers pretending to be your best friend, as long as you are giving what they need. Realize that these people, who are willing to lie, cheat and protest their way along the edge of greatness, are just that, on the edge. Every once in a while just give one of them a push and see how far they drop. I promise to laugh loudly, with you![/quote]
Well, I will certainly say this much: I *hope* that most people out there just want to get a little extra edge. That's not to say that you shouldn't remember who gave you the cold shoulder and who didn't the next time they need a favor, but I would hope that in a community like this, there's none of that foolishness in the first place. Though I suppose that it does make success that much sweeter, huh?
~ Miranda
| adhowe70 | 02-24-2005 08:56 PM |
I will share anything that can be learned at the track given a reasonable amount of resources. I will even loan (heck, I gave away parts in Topeka in 2003) my resources to someone that can benefit from them. I will not give away unique information (shock dyno charts for a not-so-off-the-shelf set of shocks). I will give you a lead in the right direction.
Why? Because I want my competitors to bring their A-game. I want to beat them at their best or be beaten by them because they're the best.
Caveat: If you're an ass, don't ask me for anything other than a kick in the ass. Most of the autocross community is great, but there are a few bad eggs.
Why? Because I want my competitors to bring their A-game. I want to beat them at their best or be beaten by them because they're the best.
Caveat: If you're an ass, don't ask me for anything other than a kick in the ass. Most of the autocross community is great, but there are a few bad eggs.
| SgWRX | 02-25-2005 12:22 AM |
there's no such thing as freinds. they're all assets! LOL
| AUTOwrXER | 02-25-2005 11:52 AM |
[QUOTE=Midnight_Gold]Though I suppose that it does make success that much sweeter, huh?
~ Miranda[/QUOTE]
Knowing that you were the first to break away from the herd; knowing that you didn't just do what the next guy did, and that you actually put some blood, sweat, and tears into developing something different that worked. Yeah, that would make it sweeter. IMO, this sport (on the highest level) is about vehicle development as well as exceptional driving. Some people just want to buy the wining formula and focus on driving. There's nothing wrong with that, but for me it's about both aspects of the sport. A win would be that much sweeter if I did it with my own approach to car setup, including all the components that go with it.
Joel
~ Miranda[/QUOTE]
Knowing that you were the first to break away from the herd; knowing that you didn't just do what the next guy did, and that you actually put some blood, sweat, and tears into developing something different that worked. Yeah, that would make it sweeter. IMO, this sport (on the highest level) is about vehicle development as well as exceptional driving. Some people just want to buy the wining formula and focus on driving. There's nothing wrong with that, but for me it's about both aspects of the sport. A win would be that much sweeter if I did it with my own approach to car setup, including all the components that go with it.
Joel
| KC | 02-25-2005 12:05 PM |
[QUOTE=AUTOwrXER]Knowing that you were the first to break away from the herd; knowing that you didn't just do what the next guy did, and that you actually put some blood, sweat, and tears into developing something different that worked. Yeah, that would make it sweeter. IMO, this sport (on the highest level) is about vehicle development as well as exceptional driving. Some people just want to buy the wining formula and focus on driving. There's nothing wrong with that, but for me it's about both aspects of the sport. A win would be that much sweeter if I did it with my own approach to car setup, including all the components that go with it.
Joel[/QUOTE]
Well put. 2003 was a good year for that in STX. Look at what happened in 2004. Not saying it wouldn't have happened anyway, but I feel good in doing something different, and then people going... 'seemed to have worked... so I'll do that'.
The 8 is a different story. There's only one forumula that works for stock. Just the cost of those parts vs gain are the big difference.
--kC
Joel[/QUOTE]
Well put. 2003 was a good year for that in STX. Look at what happened in 2004. Not saying it wouldn't have happened anyway, but I feel good in doing something different, and then people going... 'seemed to have worked... so I'll do that'.
The 8 is a different story. There's only one forumula that works for stock. Just the cost of those parts vs gain are the big difference.
--kC
| jcroy66 | 02-25-2005 02:03 PM |
[QUOTE=Midnight_Gold]I'd like to think that Jen is a REALLY close weekend warrior buddy of mine now.. I don't think there's anything she could ask me that I wouldn't gladly answer.[/QUOTE]
Ditto! :cool:
As for the question in general, I think it depends. I probably wouldn't be as open about our setup with everyone. And in some rare cases, I might be "closed" even with friends, if I felt that they'd turn around and tell our info to people I don't like. :D (FWIW, I don't think I've met anyone in the Subaru community that I don't like.)
Ditto! :cool:
As for the question in general, I think it depends. I probably wouldn't be as open about our setup with everyone. And in some rare cases, I might be "closed" even with friends, if I felt that they'd turn around and tell our info to people I don't like. :D (FWIW, I don't think I've met anyone in the Subaru community that I don't like.)
| zzyzx | 02-25-2005 02:55 PM |
To me, it's like being an inventor. Spending possibly large amounts of money, blood, sweat and maybe even tears certainly gives you sole proprietorship on the results. That said, many share because they are excited about what they've found out and it's in their nature to do so.
I would never be offended if somebody didn't want to share, really, because they've most likely earned it. In other words, no it's not your right to their results. If they choose to share, then good for you - be happy it wasn't your cash and you didn't have to do all the homework yourself.
My preference is to share most things with friends and close competitors because I enjoy doing so.
I would never be offended if somebody didn't want to share, really, because they've most likely earned it. In other words, no it's not your right to their results. If they choose to share, then good for you - be happy it wasn't your cash and you didn't have to do all the homework yourself.
My preference is to share most things with friends and close competitors because I enjoy doing so.
| dowroa | 02-25-2005 02:58 PM |
Hey, if you don't share, I am sure you will just get protested and once they find out your brake shields are on backwards, everyone knows anyway and all will start doing it ;)
One way or another, the information is going to come out, whether it is after the season talk, friendly banter, or heated protest.
If I found something cool that no one else knew about and worked, I dont see what is wrong with not openly sharing. It might not work for them for some reason... ;)
- dow
One way or another, the information is going to come out, whether it is after the season talk, friendly banter, or heated protest.
If I found something cool that no one else knew about and worked, I dont see what is wrong with not openly sharing. It might not work for them for some reason... ;)
- dow
| del105 | 02-25-2005 08:07 PM |
Sharing setup secrets on what tire is fastest or what alignment works best or letting a competitor co-drive is one thing. Developing a critical component that is going to change the way the car handles and make it much faster is another. If I spent the time developing it I would want to be the first one with it. I'd also want to help the people that helped me, by directing buyers to the proper retail outlet.
You can make everyone happy everytime.
andrew
You can make everyone happy everytime.
andrew
| Midnight_Gold | 02-25-2005 09:16 PM |
I totally agree with the school of thought that setup secrets shouldn't be openly divulged (as that has been the case with vehicles I have driven). It's not 100% in keeping with my question, but I think it's an interesting topic anyhow..
I think that unique development is most definitely something I'd keep between myself and close friends (or just my dogs;)).. but there are some things that these cars will [i]quite obviously[/i] have to have some work done on for each class...
~ Miranda
I think that unique development is most definitely something I'd keep between myself and close friends (or just my dogs;)).. but there are some things that these cars will [i]quite obviously[/i] have to have some work done on for each class...
~ Miranda
| CamaroFS34 | 02-25-2005 11:43 PM |
I think the setup crap is part of what keeps me in stock class. There's not that much in terms of "development," especially in FS (well, except maybe for the 2005 Mustang ;) ).... not like an ST or SP car.
I'm very open with the setup on my cars. I'm very open to people who want to codrive my cars and see what they are like (or compare them to their own, or to each other -- yes, my two cars are setup differently).
When would it [i]not[/i] be a good idea for friends to become competitors? Easy, and I'm answering this one from personal experience -- when the friend is your significant other. It's not a big deal if you're running in different classes (such as one in open and one in ladies). It can be a damned long 16 hour drive from Topeka when you're in the same class though. :(
It gets a little tougher when you're talking about classes where the car's preparation matters almost as much as the driver's skill. I'm a [i]very[/i] competitive person, and I like an even playing field... or one skewed towards me. ;) I haven't been in the situation though where I've needed to try to get setup questions answered (beyond alignment and shock settings, and they barely count), and I don't know how I would respond to a competitor/friend asking a lot of questions about setup on an ST or SP car.
All I can say, Miranda, is don't take it personally if people aren't being as open about car setup as you want them to be. The competitive spirit can drive us to do and say some crazy (and sometimes hurtful) things at times. Some of the people who are considered the biggest dicks in the sport are only like that during the heat of competition; away from the course and the site, they can be fun people to hang around (as I found out about the likes of Mark and Wendi Allen, Steve Telehowski, and even, *gasp* Mark Chiles!). Frankly, I'm surprised Courtney offered the car he was driving to you -- not because he isn't a nice guy (I've known him for as long as I've been autocrossing, which is 10+ years!!), but because his codriver is also the car owner. While Courtney offered the car, I have to wonder if Richard would have actually let you drive it. :(
Oh, and Eric? That's [i]awesome[/i] news. I take it that codriving the black car is out for this year? ;)
Karen
I'm very open with the setup on my cars. I'm very open to people who want to codrive my cars and see what they are like (or compare them to their own, or to each other -- yes, my two cars are setup differently).
When would it [i]not[/i] be a good idea for friends to become competitors? Easy, and I'm answering this one from personal experience -- when the friend is your significant other. It's not a big deal if you're running in different classes (such as one in open and one in ladies). It can be a damned long 16 hour drive from Topeka when you're in the same class though. :(
It gets a little tougher when you're talking about classes where the car's preparation matters almost as much as the driver's skill. I'm a [i]very[/i] competitive person, and I like an even playing field... or one skewed towards me. ;) I haven't been in the situation though where I've needed to try to get setup questions answered (beyond alignment and shock settings, and they barely count), and I don't know how I would respond to a competitor/friend asking a lot of questions about setup on an ST or SP car.
All I can say, Miranda, is don't take it personally if people aren't being as open about car setup as you want them to be. The competitive spirit can drive us to do and say some crazy (and sometimes hurtful) things at times. Some of the people who are considered the biggest dicks in the sport are only like that during the heat of competition; away from the course and the site, they can be fun people to hang around (as I found out about the likes of Mark and Wendi Allen, Steve Telehowski, and even, *gasp* Mark Chiles!). Frankly, I'm surprised Courtney offered the car he was driving to you -- not because he isn't a nice guy (I've known him for as long as I've been autocrossing, which is 10+ years!!), but because his codriver is also the car owner. While Courtney offered the car, I have to wonder if Richard would have actually let you drive it. :(
Oh, and Eric? That's [i]awesome[/i] news. I take it that codriving the black car is out for this year? ;)
Karen
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