| slickvic | 06-22-2005 09:35 AM |
Stock cooling system
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I have your standard cobb stage 2 wrx w/ up-pipe and I was wondering if the stock radiator and cooling system are going to be sufficient for a track weekend at Putnam Park.
| MarcsRX | 06-22-2005 10:58 AM |
I have an sti and at gingerman i suffered from over heating! So i replaced the radiator with a koyo, and did a cooler running thermosthat. Also new coolant with less water and an STI resevwore>? cap. Now as i drive around town i can watch the temp go down when before the needle never moved, evar!
| dwx | 06-22-2005 11:17 AM |
If your car overheated at gingerman at a track day, there was probably something wrong with the cooling system, it shouldn't do that.
| MarcsRX | 06-22-2005 11:21 AM |
I think that i boiled the coolant that day. It was hot and 20minute sessions of balls to the wall driving might have done it. There mus of been air in the coolant or something. But any way i think its a good idea to upgrade for the peace of mind and a cooler running motor. Not to mention less heat= more hores power and less Det.!
| WRenXhaven | 06-22-2005 11:51 AM |
I'm also looking to change my radiator out since the new swap, I'm afraid of overheating on track days also. Temps are fine with everyday driving but the extra displacement makes more heat.
| LyveWRX | 06-22-2005 12:24 PM |
[quote]"Also new coolant with less water"[/quote]
Which would reduce the heat transfer and efficiency of your cooling system. 50/50 mix w/ water wetter is the best for a daily driver, for race only cars then run water + water wetter.
Which would reduce the heat transfer and efficiency of your cooling system. 50/50 mix w/ water wetter is the best for a daily driver, for race only cars then run water + water wetter.
| dwx | 06-22-2005 12:27 PM |
Yeah I was going to say, the most effective cooling you are going to get is 100% water, but you want to add some water wetter or other additive to that.
| MarcsRX | 06-22-2005 12:43 PM |
Wait what are you talking about??? Straight coolant is the best!? On the back of the bottle it show a proportion of coolant to water and the boiling point goes up as the water amount mixed goes down???
| dwx | 06-22-2005 01:02 PM |
You said, "New coolant with less water". The boiling point may go up but water is better at removing heat than anything else. The more coolant you add the less efficient the system is at removing heat. So by adding say 75% coolant and 25% water, you're coolant may not boil, but your engine is running hotter than it would at 50/50 or 25% water/75% coolant.
Raising the boiling point of the coolant isn't helping your engine run any cooler, and the engine is worse off with the mixture you have now.
On a race car you use pure water along with a good radiator/fan system to remove the heat from the water. You use water wetter as a corrosion inhibitor/detergent for the engine/radiator.
Raising the boiling point of the coolant isn't helping your engine run any cooler, and the engine is worse off with the mixture you have now.
On a race car you use pure water along with a good radiator/fan system to remove the heat from the water. You use water wetter as a corrosion inhibitor/detergent for the engine/radiator.
| electricpork | 06-22-2005 01:09 PM |
The focus should be specific heat, not boiling point. Water has a specific heat of 1 cal/g*C, where as ethylene glycol (the active ingredient in coolant) has a specific heat of only .571 cal/g*C. If you wanted a high boiling point, then you'd fill your radiator up with metal because that's sure to trump water in that department!
| silentbob343 | 06-22-2005 01:09 PM |
sorry they are correct water and water wetter for track days is the best.
Probably didn't need to replace your rad either maybe just Thermostat and water.
Probably didn't need to replace your rad either maybe just Thermostat and water.
| MarcsRX | 06-22-2005 01:12 PM |
A higher boiling point increases the coolants efeciency(I cant Spell) that why people use a higher pressure cap. Wouldn't water boil too fast and creat gas in the system ie steam??? My car defenatly runs cooler without a doubt. When you say race car may be you mean drag car?? where they are not exposed to excessive heat for prolonged amounts of time. I dont know because that dosent make any sence to me?
| electricpork | 06-22-2005 01:22 PM |
you are correct that that a higher pressure cap can help with cooling efficiency, but you are confusing the issues. If you are talking about only 1 liquid (say, water), then yes, the the more effectively you can keep the *water* a liquid, the more water molecules will be able to rush past the cylinder heads and take away heat. When you add coolant to the water however, you are not increasing the *water's* ability to take away heat, what you are doing instead is replacing some of the water in the system with another substance, that is, ethylene glycol.
Sure, Ethylene Glycol has a higher boiling point than water, BUT the amount of heat that it takes to raise 1 gram of ethylene glycol 1 degree is almost HALF the amount of heat it takes to do that to water. Though there are other factors that play in, essentially, if you ran PURE coolant with NO water in your system, your cooling system would lose almost half of it's efficiency compared to if you ran pure water. The main point of adding "coolant," which is a misnomer, is to prevent your water from freezing in the winter. Nobody wants to drain their cooling systems every fall just so their engine blocks dont crack.
Hope this helps clear things up.
Ben
Sure, Ethylene Glycol has a higher boiling point than water, BUT the amount of heat that it takes to raise 1 gram of ethylene glycol 1 degree is almost HALF the amount of heat it takes to do that to water. Though there are other factors that play in, essentially, if you ran PURE coolant with NO water in your system, your cooling system would lose almost half of it's efficiency compared to if you ran pure water. The main point of adding "coolant," which is a misnomer, is to prevent your water from freezing in the winter. Nobody wants to drain their cooling systems every fall just so their engine blocks dont crack.
Hope this helps clear things up.
Ben
| MarcsRX | 06-22-2005 01:23 PM |
Edit sorry, i just searched and found out your right. wow! But for a street car coolant is nessesary becauce of the temp range of operation like climate and freezeing temps. Where do i but water wetter??
| electricpork | 06-22-2005 01:25 PM |
Many run-of-the-mill auto parts stores sell it, and surely performance shops would as well.
| MarcsRX | 06-22-2005 01:25 PM |
Thanx for clearing that up, sorry i searched befor you posted :lol:
| electricpork | 06-22-2005 01:26 PM |
no problem. :)
| slickvic | 06-22-2005 01:27 PM |
Hey thanks for the posts so far. So basically my wrx will be ok temps wise if I fill the radiator with water and water wetter?
| electricpork | 06-22-2005 01:33 PM |
I see no problems. We drive identical cars actually! The brake dust makes my wheels black. =) I've logged over 150 laps on Gingerman with a 50/50 mix + water wetter and temps have held fine. Pure water would be even better.
Edit: grammar
Edit: grammar
| mav1c | 06-22-2005 01:34 PM |
Yeah. I wonder if running 75% water, 25% Antifreeze would show a significant cange in cooling ability? Right now I'm running 50/50. If what's been said above is true, it should, even it's it's just a few degrees. Now...would Water Wetter help at all if there's any antifreeze in the system, or is it only effective in 100% water? Hmmmmm....
| electricpork | 06-22-2005 01:40 PM |
Water Wetter does help a little bit with antifreeze/water mixtures, but it's ability to increase surface tension (thus helping the water to "stick" to the heads better) drops dramatically as the antifreeze % goes up. And yes, a 75/25 mix will yield better cooling results, but no guarantees in the freezing department!
| MarcsRX | 06-22-2005 01:45 PM |
Yes but generaly i think that the stock stuff will be ok. Besides the coolant make sure you let the car cool down befor you turn it off. If track days are on your agenda i would get a turbo timer, oh and dont put you e brake up until your brakes have cooled a lot.
| electricpork | 06-22-2005 01:53 PM |
^^^
Sorry OT, but what he said, and don't come to a complete stop on hot pads. ;)
Sorry OT, but what he said, and don't come to a complete stop on hot pads. ;)
| slickvic | 06-22-2005 02:02 PM |
Thanks for the advice fellas.
| AJ711 | 06-22-2005 05:13 PM |
There is a lot to be said for taking the last few laps and cooling the car down as well.
Keep track of the time you are out on the track or set a watch for ([i]Session Time - 5 minutes[/i]) and take the track around 60-70MPH or so. Keep the RPM's low but keep air flowing over the radiator.
This will help to evacuate the heat and allow the engine block to cool to much more acceptable levels for parking. I've used this method on long drives with sustained high speeds. Five to ten miles before I was planning on stopping I dropped down to the speed limit and cruised on in to where I was going. Cycled the fans once before turning the engine off and was fine. I watched the stock temperature gauge visibly move above the little water sign once when I did not take measures to cool the car off. Since that time, I've done what I described above and had no issues with things.
If you're overheating WHILE driving out on the track, definitely employ other methods (larger radiator, water wetter, greater percentage of water, lower temperature thermostat) as you're just producing too much heat for the stock radiator to handle.
AJ
Keep track of the time you are out on the track or set a watch for ([i]Session Time - 5 minutes[/i]) and take the track around 60-70MPH or so. Keep the RPM's low but keep air flowing over the radiator.
This will help to evacuate the heat and allow the engine block to cool to much more acceptable levels for parking. I've used this method on long drives with sustained high speeds. Five to ten miles before I was planning on stopping I dropped down to the speed limit and cruised on in to where I was going. Cycled the fans once before turning the engine off and was fine. I watched the stock temperature gauge visibly move above the little water sign once when I did not take measures to cool the car off. Since that time, I've done what I described above and had no issues with things.
If you're overheating WHILE driving out on the track, definitely employ other methods (larger radiator, water wetter, greater percentage of water, lower temperature thermostat) as you're just producing too much heat for the stock radiator to handle.
AJ
| rcracer | 06-23-2005 08:04 AM |
Yep. Ran Putnam twice this year and the car stays very cool. no Problems. Your brakes on the other hand...
| slickvic | 06-23-2005 09:06 AM |
well the brakes have been taken care of, at least I would hope so (Stoptech BBK and slotted rear rotors and pads).
| javid | 06-23-2005 09:27 AM |
[QUOTE=MarcsRX] If track days are on your agenda i would get a turbo timer, oh and dont put you e brake up until your brakes have cooled a lot.[/QUOTE]
You may be confusing our ebrakes with older styles that actually engauged the brake pad. Ours use a drum n shoe. If you use your reg brakes on track, do a cooler down lap, it is safe to use your ebrake. ;)
You may be confusing our ebrakes with older styles that actually engauged the brake pad. Ours use a drum n shoe. If you use your reg brakes on track, do a cooler down lap, it is safe to use your ebrake. ;)
| mav1c | 06-23-2005 09:31 AM |
I run a lot of track days in my WRX wagon and have done a lot around the goal of keeping heat down.
PWR Radiator.
Zerosports 160F thermostat
Samco hoses.
M2 TMIC.
Aftermarket grill with larger opening.
Next steps:
Change coolant to 25% Antifreeze / 75% Water and add Water Wetter.
Install oil cooler.
As far as Brakes. I run the Stoptech BBK and Legacy GT rear vented rotors. Most recent track day was with Pagid Black pads in the Stoptechs and Carbotech XP8 pads in the rear. Also running stainless lines all around and ATE brake fluid. My biggest issue has been finding brake pads that can handle the heat. The Pagids performed well. I ran Carbotech XP9's before these and they did do well, but I got he dreaded "ring around the rotor" from them. Next step is to add brake cooling ducts and hoses.
PWR Radiator.
Zerosports 160F thermostat
Samco hoses.
M2 TMIC.
Aftermarket grill with larger opening.
Next steps:
Change coolant to 25% Antifreeze / 75% Water and add Water Wetter.
Install oil cooler.
As far as Brakes. I run the Stoptech BBK and Legacy GT rear vented rotors. Most recent track day was with Pagid Black pads in the Stoptechs and Carbotech XP8 pads in the rear. Also running stainless lines all around and ATE brake fluid. My biggest issue has been finding brake pads that can handle the heat. The Pagids performed well. I ran Carbotech XP9's before these and they did do well, but I got he dreaded "ring around the rotor" from them. Next step is to add brake cooling ducts and hoses.
| MarcsRX | 06-23-2005 11:19 AM |
Mav1c What dot Fluid are you using in your breaks?? I want to run 5.1. I also just purchased SS Lines and want to get a better fluid. I think the brembos have a lot more in them than what the factory crap tells me. I also have carboteck bobcats
| mav1c | 06-23-2005 11:31 AM |
Make sure you use DOT 5.1, not DOT 5. I use ATE Super Blue or Type 200, which is DOT 4.
[QUOTE]The problem is that while DOTs 2, 3, and 4 are all compatible with each other, none are compatible with DOT 5. If you add DOT 5 to a system that already contains 2, 3 or 4, the resulting mixture will dissolve the rubber 0-rings common to all hydraulic systems. Within a couple of hours the brake system will leak like a sieve, and the fix requires a complete system overhaul with all new rubber parts. Not cheap, or easy. The moral of this story so far: Don't ever mix DOT 5 with any other DOT fluids.[/QUOTE]
Carbotech Bobcats will not work well at the track. You'll experience fade and overheat them pretty quickly.
[QUOTE]The problem is that while DOTs 2, 3, and 4 are all compatible with each other, none are compatible with DOT 5. If you add DOT 5 to a system that already contains 2, 3 or 4, the resulting mixture will dissolve the rubber 0-rings common to all hydraulic systems. Within a couple of hours the brake system will leak like a sieve, and the fix requires a complete system overhaul with all new rubber parts. Not cheap, or easy. The moral of this story so far: Don't ever mix DOT 5 with any other DOT fluids.[/QUOTE]
Carbotech Bobcats will not work well at the track. You'll experience fade and overheat them pretty quickly.
| javid | 06-23-2005 11:32 AM |
[QUOTE=MarcsRX] I also have carboteck bobcats[/QUOTE] Aint gonna work well for a track day... won't stop well and you will use them up in <4 track hours. Try XP8s, much better compound for street tires at the track, should last you 10 track hours.
| MarcsRX | 06-23-2005 12:52 PM |
I used them on the track and they did pretty well. Granted i did have some fade but i would say it was due to crappy fluid and me not bleeding the brakes!
| slickvic | 06-23-2005 12:57 PM |
Ok well while we are on brakes I got some pagid orange brake pads for the stoptech front calipers and was planning on leaving the axxiss ultimates pads in the rear.
Will axxiss ultimate pads be ok in the rear for a track day on stock sized slotted wrx rotors.
Will axxiss ultimate pads be ok in the rear for a track day on stock sized slotted wrx rotors.
| mav1c | 06-23-2005 01:23 PM |
I don't know the track you're running, or how hard you run the car, but I ran the Pagid Orange pads and cooked them. They held up for the first couple sessions, but by the end of the day there was noticable fade and when I removed them they were cracked and had obviously been overheated. If you're not running REALLy hard and the track isn't too hard on brakes, you should be OK. Same goes for the Axxis Ultimate rear pads. If you're not really hard on brakes, you should be OK.
| slickvic | 06-23-2005 04:47 PM |
Ok I'll see how the oranges and the ultimates do for me at Putnam Park and if they can't handle the heat I'll have to change them before Road America in the fall.
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