| makofoto | 04-29-2004 01:16 AM |
Tein EDFC Controller O.K. for AX if turned Off ?
�
�
Tein USA told me today that their Electronic Dampening Force Controller was legal for AX ... if you engaged the deactivation "button?"
Is that true ... I was thinking that one would have to mount it out of reach for it to be legal ... mount in the trunk?
Is that true ... I was thinking that one would have to mount it out of reach for it to be legal ... mount in the trunk?
| afpdl | 04-29-2004 01:43 AM |
I think it would have to be out of reach/out of the car to be legal.
Theres no way to prove that it was deactivated the whole run.
Theres no way to prove that it was deactivated the whole run.
| nate49509 | 04-29-2004 01:58 AM |
Yeah its only illegal if you can get to it during your run. So either the trunk or glovebox to be safe.
| DrBiggly | 04-29-2004 11:06 AM |
Even with it out of reach, how would someone know that it was deactivated the entire run? You'd have to have everyone in your class watch you deactivate it before every run and then check the car afterwards to make sure it was still off, and this is if you mounted the control somewhere like in the trunk or what have you. I say no way is it legal. I think that salesguy at Tein wants your money. Plus, what if you have a hidden switch somewhere even with the controls mounted in the trunk? It's just not feasible in my opinion. I'd go for a different suspension if you're serious about autox. Granted, you could always run a class where it's allowed however I'm not sure what class that would be allowed in without checking. :confused:
| Orion | 04-29-2004 11:40 AM |
there's always the option of unplugging the controller and leaving it out of the car for your run.;)
| jmott | 04-29-2004 11:50 AM |
it would be fun to write some software for that thing that adjusts it automatically. make it full stiff when you turn the wheel, full soft when you are pointed straight.
you could absorb straightline bumps just fine but keep it stiff when turning
ghetto active suspension =)
you could absorb straightline bumps just fine but keep it stiff when turning
ghetto active suspension =)
| DrBiggly | 04-29-2004 11:58 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Orion[/i]
[B] there's always the option of unplugging the controller and leaving it out of the car for your run.;) [/B][/QUOTE]
Now that one I'd be ok with. :)
[B] there's always the option of unplugging the controller and leaving it out of the car for your run.;) [/B][/QUOTE]
Now that one I'd be ok with. :)
| jbrennen | 04-29-2004 12:21 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DrBiggly [/i]
[B]Granted, you could always run a class where it's allowed however I'm not sure what class that would be allowed in without checking. :confused: [/B][/QUOTE]
Street Modified.
[B]Granted, you could always run a class where it's allowed however I'm not sure what class that would be allowed in without checking. :confused: [/B][/QUOTE]
Street Modified.
| nate49509 | 04-29-2004 01:42 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DrBiggly [/i]
[B]Even with it out of reach, how would someone know that it was deactivated the entire run? You'd have to have everyone in your class watch you deactivate it before every run and then check the car afterwards to make sure it was still off, and this is if you mounted the control somewhere like in the trunk or what have you. I say no way is it legal. I think that salesguy at Tein wants your money. Plus, what if you have a hidden switch somewhere even with the controls mounted in the trunk? It's just not feasible in my opinion. I'd go for a different suspension if you're serious about autox. Granted, you could always run a class where it's allowed however I'm not sure what class that would be allowed in without checking. :confused: [/B][/QUOTE]
Even if the unit is not turned off if your unable to reach it while strapped into the seat I'm pretty sure its legal. They just don't want people making adjustments on the fly while on course. And like Orion said you could always unplug it.
[B]Even with it out of reach, how would someone know that it was deactivated the entire run? You'd have to have everyone in your class watch you deactivate it before every run and then check the car afterwards to make sure it was still off, and this is if you mounted the control somewhere like in the trunk or what have you. I say no way is it legal. I think that salesguy at Tein wants your money. Plus, what if you have a hidden switch somewhere even with the controls mounted in the trunk? It's just not feasible in my opinion. I'd go for a different suspension if you're serious about autox. Granted, you could always run a class where it's allowed however I'm not sure what class that would be allowed in without checking. :confused: [/B][/QUOTE]
Even if the unit is not turned off if your unable to reach it while strapped into the seat I'm pretty sure its legal. They just don't want people making adjustments on the fly while on course. And like Orion said you could always unplug it.
| DrBiggly | 04-29-2004 01:53 PM |
I would be ok with the unplugging. Just saying for the sake of argument that people have been protested over a LOT less before. It just depends on what autox class, etc. :)
| MNbiker | 04-29-2004 02:05 PM |
The ST rules actually state: "No shock absorber may be capable of adjustment while the car is in motion, unless fitted as original equipment."
IMHO - mounting the EDFC controller in the trunk would be completely legal, as it's not a part of the passenger compartment, making adjustment while in motion impossible. (unless you have a trunk monkey, of course!:disco: ) Personally, I wouldn't feel safe from protest, with the controller mounted in the glovebox.
-Steve
IMHO - mounting the EDFC controller in the trunk would be completely legal, as it's not a part of the passenger compartment, making adjustment while in motion impossible. (unless you have a trunk monkey, of course!:disco: ) Personally, I wouldn't feel safe from protest, with the controller mounted in the glovebox.
-Steve
| afpdl | 04-29-2004 02:07 PM |
Dont you run SM anyway makofoto?
| MNbiker | 04-29-2004 02:09 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by afpdl [/i]
[B]Dont you run SM anyway makofoto? [/B][/QUOTE]
Dohhh!:lol: :lol: :lol:
Mako, just mount the blasted thing wherever you want - it's legal for SM.
-Steve
[B]Dont you run SM anyway makofoto? [/B][/QUOTE]
Dohhh!:lol: :lol: :lol:
Mako, just mount the blasted thing wherever you want - it's legal for SM.
-Steve
| jbrennen | 04-29-2004 02:27 PM |
I think it's funny that if Formula 1 outlawed it in the last twenty years, it's probably legal in Street Modified... :D
Active suspension... check.
Anti-lock brakes... check.
Launch control... check.
Fully automatic manual gearboxes... check.
Tires without four circumferential grooves... check.
Traction control... check.
Turbocharging... check.
Active suspension... check.
Anti-lock brakes... check.
Launch control... check.
Fully automatic manual gearboxes... check.
Tires without four circumferential grooves... check.
Traction control... check.
Turbocharging... check.
| Chromer | 04-29-2004 10:58 PM |
Add 4-wheel drive to that list, though I think it was more than 20 years ago. That 6-wheeled car was the weirdest looking thing...
| makofoto | 04-30-2004 12:36 AM |
yah ... forgot to mention that this was for SM class ...
Does anyone know if these controllers make it difficult to do camber adjustments, ie. I guess ... do they come off easily in order to make camber adjustments ?
Ordered my Tein Flex's today ... 8/10 ... also ordered a Rev-lab steering rack ... there are somethings you have to love about SM ... :devil:
Does anyone know if these controllers make it difficult to do camber adjustments, ie. I guess ... do they come off easily in order to make camber adjustments ?
Ordered my Tein Flex's today ... 8/10 ... also ordered a Rev-lab steering rack ... there are somethings you have to love about SM ... :devil:
| afpdl | 04-30-2004 02:05 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by makofoto[/i]
[B] yah ... forgot to mention that this was for SM class ...
[/B][/QUOTE]
Hell you can actually do jmotts idea:lol:
[B] yah ... forgot to mention that this was for SM class ...
[/B][/QUOTE]
Hell you can actually do jmotts idea:lol:
| trojan9x | 04-30-2004 07:35 AM |
would be neat if you could wire it into a gtech pro competition model so it would use the sensors on that it could adjust stiffness based on speed/lateral G's. Who's a good electrical engineer? :devil:
| DrBiggly | 04-30-2004 10:36 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by afpdl[/i]
[B] Hell you can actually do jmotts idea:lol: [/B][/QUOTE]
DOH! Yeah, it's legal. :o
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trojan9x[/i]
[B] would be neat if you could wire it into a gtech pro competition model so it would use the sensors on that it could adjust stiffness based on speed/lateral G's. Who's a good electrical engineer? :devil: [/B][/QUOTE]
That's a cool idea!
[B] Hell you can actually do jmotts idea:lol: [/B][/QUOTE]
DOH! Yeah, it's legal. :o
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trojan9x[/i]
[B] would be neat if you could wire it into a gtech pro competition model so it would use the sensors on that it could adjust stiffness based on speed/lateral G's. Who's a good electrical engineer? :devil: [/B][/QUOTE]
That's a cool idea!
| trojan9x | 04-30-2004 10:48 AM |
Funny thing is that I'd love to see someone actually make adjustments while on coarse and actually improve your times.. I mean it has to be difficult to look down at that unit and press that button while on a coarse unless it's a horribly boring coarse with lots of straights.
I don't think I'd protest someone with them even if they did beat me (well, maybe if it was a matter of 1st or 2nd ;) ) because I think it would hurt more than it would help.
I don't think I'd protest someone with them even if they did beat me (well, maybe if it was a matter of 1st or 2nd ;) ) because I think it would hurt more than it would help.
| AUTOwrXER | 04-30-2004 11:08 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Orion[/i]
[B] there's always the option of unplugging the controller and leaving it out of the car for your run.;) [/B][/QUOTE]
I've been doing this for the last two years. Nobody save for one person has had a problem with me running it. I set it up, take it out, and then plug it back in in grid to make any necessary adjustments. The one person that had a problem with it said that I may have another controller somewhere and that it is illegal. My response to that it, protest the car and show me the other controller.
I think you'd have to be a nut to try any driver-prompted suspension changes during an autocross run. Everything happens too quickly. It's a great feature for test and tunes, not to mention changing driving conditions during the everyday commute. I pop on the interstate and soften up the shocks via preset number 1, and then I have two sportier presets depending on how hard I want to push :devil:
Joel
[B] there's always the option of unplugging the controller and leaving it out of the car for your run.;) [/B][/QUOTE]
I've been doing this for the last two years. Nobody save for one person has had a problem with me running it. I set it up, take it out, and then plug it back in in grid to make any necessary adjustments. The one person that had a problem with it said that I may have another controller somewhere and that it is illegal. My response to that it, protest the car and show me the other controller.
I think you'd have to be a nut to try any driver-prompted suspension changes during an autocross run. Everything happens too quickly. It's a great feature for test and tunes, not to mention changing driving conditions during the everyday commute. I pop on the interstate and soften up the shocks via preset number 1, and then I have two sportier presets depending on how hard I want to push :devil:
Joel
| jbrennen | 04-30-2004 11:27 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by AUTOwrXER [/i]
[B]I think you'd have to be a nut to try any driver-prompted suspension changes during an autocross run.[/B][/QUOTE]
Depends how easy it is to switch, and how quickly the system can actually change the suspension settings.
I could easily imagine a system with a push button on the steering wheel which would switch the car between its sweeper suspension settings and its slalom suspension settings. Any autoXer knows that the perfect suspension setup for long sweepers is not optimal for slaloms, and vice versa. Button pressed for slaloms. Button released for sweepers.
AFAIK, that's not something that's possible with the EDFC, but it would be legal in SM.
If my memory is correct, some Formula 1 active suspensions were controlled in a similar way, with a button on the steering wheel. I remember that one team had the button set up so that when the button was released, the car would "tilt forward" -- the entire car would act like a big downforce wing -- and when the button was pressed, the car would level out to minimize drag. The driver would press the button when acceleration was more important than aerodynamic grip -- generally on the straights.
[B]I think you'd have to be a nut to try any driver-prompted suspension changes during an autocross run.[/B][/QUOTE]
Depends how easy it is to switch, and how quickly the system can actually change the suspension settings.
I could easily imagine a system with a push button on the steering wheel which would switch the car between its sweeper suspension settings and its slalom suspension settings. Any autoXer knows that the perfect suspension setup for long sweepers is not optimal for slaloms, and vice versa. Button pressed for slaloms. Button released for sweepers.
AFAIK, that's not something that's possible with the EDFC, but it would be legal in SM.
If my memory is correct, some Formula 1 active suspensions were controlled in a similar way, with a button on the steering wheel. I remember that one team had the button set up so that when the button was released, the car would "tilt forward" -- the entire car would act like a big downforce wing -- and when the button was pressed, the car would level out to minimize drag. The driver would press the button when acceleration was more important than aerodynamic grip -- generally on the straights.
| RebelINS | 05-01-2004 09:15 PM |
[QUOTE]The one person that had a problem with it said that I may have another controller somewhere and that it is illegal. [/QUOTE]
Couldn't that argument used for any mod? Someone could easily hide a boost controller, or find a way to change ECU maps on the fly and change them back. I don't think it is really a valid argument.
-Wes
Couldn't that argument used for any mod? Someone could easily hide a boost controller, or find a way to change ECU maps on the fly and change them back. I don't think it is really a valid argument.
-Wes
| makofoto | 05-02-2004 12:56 AM |
I imagine the EDFC controller uses little motors to turn the dampner controls ... no way they could change the setting quickly enough on an AX course ...
| AUTOwrXER | 05-02-2004 08:54 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by makofoto[/i]
[B] I imagine the EDFC controller uses little motors to turn the dampner controls ... no way they could change the setting quickly enough on an AX course ... [/B][/QUOTE]
Exactly right. It could make a small change quickly, but not a big enough change to make a difference without 5-6 seconds.
[B] I imagine the EDFC controller uses little motors to turn the dampner controls ... no way they could change the setting quickly enough on an AX course ... [/B][/QUOTE]
Exactly right. It could make a small change quickly, but not a big enough change to make a difference without 5-6 seconds.
| AUTOwrXER | 05-02-2004 08:55 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by RebelINS[/i]
[B] Couldn't that argument used for any mod? Someone could easily hide a boost controller, or find a way to change ECU maps on the fly and change them back. I don't think it is really a valid argument.
-Wes [/B][/QUOTE]
Yep. It was an ignorant position.
[B] Couldn't that argument used for any mod? Someone could easily hide a boost controller, or find a way to change ECU maps on the fly and change them back. I don't think it is really a valid argument.
-Wes [/B][/QUOTE]
Yep. It was an ignorant position.
| AUTOwrXER | 05-02-2004 08:56 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by jbrennen[/i]
[B] AFAIK, that's not something that's possible with the EDFC, but it would be legal in SM. [/B][/QUOTE]
I believe the ability to change suspension on the fly is banned under the general rules, and therefore not legal for any class. The SEB doesn't want technology like active suspension, active aero, carbon fiber brakes, etc making it's way into autocross. Next thing you know you've got a class where you need a CART budget to be competitive.
[B] AFAIK, that's not something that's possible with the EDFC, but it would be legal in SM. [/B][/QUOTE]
I believe the ability to change suspension on the fly is banned under the general rules, and therefore not legal for any class. The SEB doesn't want technology like active suspension, active aero, carbon fiber brakes, etc making it's way into autocross. Next thing you know you've got a class where you need a CART budget to be competitive.
| leecea | 05-02-2004 09:09 PM |
[QUOTE]find a way to change ECU maps on the fly and change them back. I don't think it is really a valid argument.[/QUOTE]
FYI: I can't remember the name of the product that allows ECU maps to be changed, but there have been a bunch of threads similar to this one, with the general concensus being that it is illegal in STS/X. So, I think it may be a valid argument if you compete at a high enough level.
FYI: I can't remember the name of the product that allows ECU maps to be changed, but there have been a bunch of threads similar to this one, with the general concensus being that it is illegal in STS/X. So, I think it may be a valid argument if you compete at a high enough level.
| jbrennen | 05-02-2004 09:27 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by AUTOwrXER [/i]
[B]I believe the ability to change suspension on the fly is banned under the general rules, and therefore not legal for any class.[/B][/QUOTE]
If so, please show me where... The only prohibitions I see are in section 14.5 of the Street Touring rules and section 15.5 of the Street Prepared rules, which use the same wording:
[quote]
No shock absorber may be capable of adjustment while the
car is in motion, unless fitted as original equipment.[/quote]
While section 16.1 of the Street Modified rules says:
[quote]
Suspension components are unrestricted as long as they use the
original attachment points.[/quote]
As far as needing a CART budget to be competitive, the Street Modified rules already are permissive enough to allow such a situation. The reason it hasn't happened -- and probably never will -- is because somebody who is willing to spend that kind of money on a car is going to want a much better return on their investment than free tires and a couple grand a year in contingency money.
[B]I believe the ability to change suspension on the fly is banned under the general rules, and therefore not legal for any class.[/B][/QUOTE]
If so, please show me where... The only prohibitions I see are in section 14.5 of the Street Touring rules and section 15.5 of the Street Prepared rules, which use the same wording:
[quote]
No shock absorber may be capable of adjustment while the
car is in motion, unless fitted as original equipment.[/quote]
While section 16.1 of the Street Modified rules says:
[quote]
Suspension components are unrestricted as long as they use the
original attachment points.[/quote]
As far as needing a CART budget to be competitive, the Street Modified rules already are permissive enough to allow such a situation. The reason it hasn't happened -- and probably never will -- is because somebody who is willing to spend that kind of money on a car is going to want a much better return on their investment than free tires and a couple grand a year in contingency money.
| afpdl | 05-02-2004 10:15 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by leecea[/i]
[B] FYI: I can't remember the name of the product that allows ECU maps to be changed, but there have been a bunch of threads similar to this one, with the general concensus being that it is illegal in STS/X. So, I think it may be a valid argument if you compete at a high enough level. [/B][/QUOTE]
Its completely removable, as long as they flash to an stx map at home and dont bring the accessport to the autox you have no way of knowing they even own one unless they tell you.
[B] FYI: I can't remember the name of the product that allows ECU maps to be changed, but there have been a bunch of threads similar to this one, with the general concensus being that it is illegal in STS/X. So, I think it may be a valid argument if you compete at a high enough level. [/B][/QUOTE]
Its completely removable, as long as they flash to an stx map at home and dont bring the accessport to the autox you have no way of knowing they even own one unless they tell you.
| AUTOwrXER | 05-04-2004 12:23 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by jbrennen[/i]
[B] If so, please show me where... The only prohibitions I see are in section 14.5 of the Street Touring rules and section 15.5 of the Street Prepared rules, which use the same wording:
While section 16.1 of the Street Modified rules says:
As far as needing a CART budget to be competitive, the Street Modified rules already are permissive enough to allow such a situation. The reason it hasn't happened -- and probably never will -- is because somebody who is willing to spend that kind of money on a car is going to want a much better return on their investment than free tires and a couple grand a year in contingency money. [/B][/QUOTE]
My rulebook is in another state or I'd take another look at it. I am speaking from memory after reading the rulebook cover-to-cover before last season. I may be mistaken (it wouldn't be the first time my memory failed me), but I thought it was in the same area that deals with semi-(re)active suspentions (like what Mercedes offers) and that the system must be disabled in order to change shocks.
[B] If so, please show me where... The only prohibitions I see are in section 14.5 of the Street Touring rules and section 15.5 of the Street Prepared rules, which use the same wording:
While section 16.1 of the Street Modified rules says:
As far as needing a CART budget to be competitive, the Street Modified rules already are permissive enough to allow such a situation. The reason it hasn't happened -- and probably never will -- is because somebody who is willing to spend that kind of money on a car is going to want a much better return on their investment than free tires and a couple grand a year in contingency money. [/B][/QUOTE]
My rulebook is in another state or I'd take another look at it. I am speaking from memory after reading the rulebook cover-to-cover before last season. I may be mistaken (it wouldn't be the first time my memory failed me), but I thought it was in the same area that deals with semi-(re)active suspentions (like what Mercedes offers) and that the system must be disabled in order to change shocks.
Không có nhận xét nào:
Đăng nhận xét