| Rallycarperson | 04-03-2005 12:33 PM |
The Rally Tire Thread
�
�
Just curious which rally tires have the best grip, wear, weight, overal value, etc. From what I know the only brands available here are Michelin, Pirelli, Silverstone, and Kumho.
How do the Kumhos and Sliverstones compare with the more expensive Pirellis and Michelins?? Are they worth the extra $$?
Any reviews/comments about any brand are welcomed. [img]http://forums.nasioc.com/ubb-files/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
-Mark
MAPmotors.com
How do the Kumhos and Sliverstones compare with the more expensive Pirellis and Michelins?? Are they worth the extra $$?
Any reviews/comments about any brand are welcomed. [img]http://forums.nasioc.com/ubb-files/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
-Mark
MAPmotors.com
| thechickencow | 04-03-2005 01:02 PM |
I've used Michelin, Pirelli, and Silverstone on my G5 car. The Michelins/Pirellis seem to hold up better than the silverstones do, I think the compound of the silverstones is too soft.
Kumho's seem popular, Falkens are around a bit, and Hankook is rumored to be importing rally tires soon (as of last fall, haven't heard lately). If they're availiable soon I'll probably run Hankooks as the team is a dealer.
Jay
#583 G5
[url]www.step2racing.com[/url]
Kumho's seem popular, Falkens are around a bit, and Hankook is rumored to be importing rally tires soon (as of last fall, haven't heard lately). If they're availiable soon I'll probably run Hankooks as the team is a dealer.
Jay
#583 G5
[url]www.step2racing.com[/url]
| reddevil | 04-03-2005 01:35 PM |
While not true rally tires, I have had grand success by cutting snow tires for Rallycross. I took 14" Cooper brand snowtires, pulled the studs and cut the tread out in a zigzag around the tire. Amazing grip! Nothing could really touch me for accelleration in the mud and dirt last year. Car wasnt running this first rallycross though so I couldnt test them against Bill Price.
This years first rallycross in Oregon (Hillsborro) was won by an incredible margin by Bill Price. He drives an old 100hp Audi with narrow custom cut tires and he was beating EVERYONE by at least 20 seconds per lap. And this was a 1:24 time. Thats huge.
His tires simply cut the mud and dirt and he tracks like he is on rails. No spendy tires for him, just a few (20ish?) sitting in his garage with a tire cutter.
This years first rallycross in Oregon (Hillsborro) was won by an incredible margin by Bill Price. He drives an old 100hp Audi with narrow custom cut tires and he was beating EVERYONE by at least 20 seconds per lap. And this was a 1:24 time. Thats huge.
His tires simply cut the mud and dirt and he tracks like he is on rails. No spendy tires for him, just a few (20ish?) sitting in his garage with a tire cutter.
| Rallycarperson | 04-03-2005 01:49 PM |
Looks like Hankook is already making them...
[url="http://www.hankooktireusa.com/products_view.asp?CatID=3"]http://www.hankooktireusa.com/products_view.asp?CatID=3[/url]
The reason why many people are using Kumhos are probably, because they are the least expensive. Although, ive heard that they are really heavy.
thechickencow, in your opinion are the Michelins/Pirellis worth the extra $$?
-Mark
MAPmotors.com
[url="http://www.hankooktireusa.com/products_view.asp?CatID=3"]http://www.hankooktireusa.com/products_view.asp?CatID=3[/url]
The reason why many people are using Kumhos are probably, because they are the least expensive. Although, ive heard that they are really heavy.
thechickencow, in your opinion are the Michelins/Pirellis worth the extra $$?
-Mark
MAPmotors.com
| thechickencow | 04-03-2005 02:06 PM |
Hankook has them listed but I don't think they're availiable right now. I'll check my distributor.
All rally tires are heavy, I wouldn't be suprised if my wheel/tire combo approaches 40-50# easily.
I think most think the Michelin/Pirellis are better from what I've heard. In my direct experience I wouldn't spend the money on silverstones when I can get the other for only a bit more.
All rally tires are heavy, I wouldn't be suprised if my wheel/tire combo approaches 40-50# easily.
I think most think the Michelin/Pirellis are better from what I've heard. In my direct experience I wouldn't spend the money on silverstones when I can get the other for only a bit more.
| ANZAC_1915 | 04-03-2005 02:15 PM |
I use 13" Silverstones on my rally car (2000lb RWD) --- I've switched from the harder S7 compound to the soft S3 compound (car is very light). They hold up well, and grip is good.
I have 15" Silverstones for rallycrossing Subies, and the grip is good (I tend to run these 2 PSI higher than you would a "normal" rally tire).
I haven't driven on a set of expensive tires for a couple years, and even then they were well worn, so I don't have much to offer there.
From what I can see, if you're at the club/regional level, Silverstones work out fine.
I have 15" Silverstones for rallycrossing Subies, and the grip is good (I tend to run these 2 PSI higher than you would a "normal" rally tire).
I haven't driven on a set of expensive tires for a couple years, and even then they were well worn, so I don't have much to offer there.
From what I can see, if you're at the club/regional level, Silverstones work out fine.
| Rallycarperson | 04-03-2005 03:04 PM |
Thanks guys. So what are the vendors for Michelin/Pirelli? For Michelin I only know of Libra and Subesports, which are both around $180 per tire.
Pirelli...Autosport Eng.?
-Mark
MAPmotors.com
Pirelli...Autosport Eng.?
-Mark
MAPmotors.com
| 387hardcore | 04-03-2005 03:26 PM |
not a rally tire but works great in the dirt and is cheap winterforce
| erikkellison | 04-03-2005 03:57 PM |
I thought I'd compile links for the tire manufacturers since that's about the only real contribution I can make to this thread.
[URL=http://www.michelinsport.com/sport/front/templates/affich.jsp?codeRubrique=598&lang=EN]Michelin Rally Tires[/URL]
[URL=http://www.pirellicompetizioni.com/en_41/products/catalogue_gravel.jhtml]Pirelli Rally Tires[/URL]
[URL=http://www.silverstone.com.my/]Silverstone Rally Tires[/URL]
[URL=http://www.polleymotorsport.co.uk/tyres/msport/A035.htm]Yokohama Rally Tires (closest thing to manufacturer site I could find)[/URL]
[URL=http://www.kumho-euro.com/Motorsports/KH_brochure03.html]Kumho Rally Tires[/URL]
[URL=http://www.hankooktireusa.com/products_view.asp?CatID=3]Hankook Rally Tires[/URL]
[URL=http://www.dunlop.co.nz/tyres.asp?tyreCatID=8]Dunlop Rally Tires[/URL]
[URL=http://www.keskipinta.fi/english/br_summer.htm]Black Rocket Rally Tires[/URL]
Sorry, some of these are international links since the US sites don't have rally tires on their webpages.
[SIZE=1]And respective comments: too expensive, too expensive, good p/e ratio, no clue but look great, very tempting, too new, not available, Finnish.[/SIZE]
[URL=http://www.michelinsport.com/sport/front/templates/affich.jsp?codeRubrique=598&lang=EN]Michelin Rally Tires[/URL]
[URL=http://www.pirellicompetizioni.com/en_41/products/catalogue_gravel.jhtml]Pirelli Rally Tires[/URL]
[URL=http://www.silverstone.com.my/]Silverstone Rally Tires[/URL]
[URL=http://www.polleymotorsport.co.uk/tyres/msport/A035.htm]Yokohama Rally Tires (closest thing to manufacturer site I could find)[/URL]
[URL=http://www.kumho-euro.com/Motorsports/KH_brochure03.html]Kumho Rally Tires[/URL]
[URL=http://www.hankooktireusa.com/products_view.asp?CatID=3]Hankook Rally Tires[/URL]
[URL=http://www.dunlop.co.nz/tyres.asp?tyreCatID=8]Dunlop Rally Tires[/URL]
[URL=http://www.keskipinta.fi/english/br_summer.htm]Black Rocket Rally Tires[/URL]
Sorry, some of these are international links since the US sites don't have rally tires on their webpages.
[SIZE=1]And respective comments: too expensive, too expensive, good p/e ratio, no clue but look great, very tempting, too new, not available, Finnish.[/SIZE]
| sunnynw | 04-03-2005 05:20 PM |
There is also a Finnish company Keskipinta Ltd that makes Black Rocket rally tyres:
[url]http://www.keskipinta.fi/english/br_summer.htm[/url]
They are the largest tyre manufacturer in Finland, making six different types of studded tyres for winter rallies, and three different types of summer rally tyres.
If you dig around on [url]www.specialstage.com[/url] you can find out more info on these tyres.
We personally run Silverstones. Depending on your driving stlye you can get several rallies out of the harder compound. But good luck finding them.
US Silverstone distributor:
[url]http://www.taborrallyteam.com/[/url]
[url]http://www.keskipinta.fi/english/br_summer.htm[/url]
They are the largest tyre manufacturer in Finland, making six different types of studded tyres for winter rallies, and three different types of summer rally tyres.
If you dig around on [url]www.specialstage.com[/url] you can find out more info on these tyres.
We personally run Silverstones. Depending on your driving stlye you can get several rallies out of the harder compound. But good luck finding them.
US Silverstone distributor:
[url]http://www.taborrallyteam.com/[/url]
| Geek Guy | 04-03-2005 06:41 PM |
We've run the silverstones and the khumos on our old Gr2 car, and they were decent. The did't hold up when we upgraded to the 4wd PGT car (then converted to open). We ran michellins (purchased through CanJam in Toronto).
Now that we're running yet another car, 4WD open with mucho horsepower, we've found that the yokos are really good. Plus, they are reasonably priced and have a variety of tread types and hardness.
Now that we're running yet another car, 4WD open with mucho horsepower, we've found that the yokos are really good. Plus, they are reasonably priced and have a variety of tread types and hardness.
| rupertberr | 04-03-2005 06:53 PM |
I think the Khumo's are a pretty good RallyCross tire. They seem to have more gaps and work better on a soft surface. I run Michelins and they seem better on a harder surface but not much better considering the price difference. 2�
| Rallycarperson | 04-03-2005 07:03 PM |
Thanks guys.
[url="http://www.kumho-euro.com/Motorsports/KH_brochure03.html"]http://www.kumho-euro.com/Motorsports/KH_brochure03.html[/url]
Looks like Kumho has a new tire- R800. The tread looks similar to the Michelin ZR tires. Anyone have experience about them?
-Mark
MAPmotors.com
[url="http://www.kumho-euro.com/Motorsports/KH_brochure03.html"]http://www.kumho-euro.com/Motorsports/KH_brochure03.html[/url]
Looks like Kumho has a new tire- R800. The tread looks similar to the Michelin ZR tires. Anyone have experience about them?
-Mark
MAPmotors.com
| Bort | 04-03-2005 08:39 PM |
You forgot Falken!
[url]http://www.falkentire.com/tires_rs01d.htm[/url]
I don't know anything about them.
[url]http://www.falkentire.com/tires_rs01d.htm[/url]
I don't know anything about them.
| randy zimmer | 04-03-2005 09:44 PM |
tires
�
�
There was a thread on SS that said Falken was selling out their stock and quitting.
---
I've only used Kumho and Michelin.
I broke a wheel a rally with Kumhos and after running Michelin, wouldn't use them except in soft mud.
Michelins hold up better, can be used longer, don't fail, work well on tarmac (Kumhos don't) and don't squirm.
A turn you would hit within a foot on a Kumho you can hit in 2 inches with the Michelin. Much more precise.
You will wear out a Kumho in less time and not get any extra performance in return.
Looking at other people and their problems, I believe Silverstones have more flats and Pirellis delaminate if run over 100mph to long.
These are just my observations over four years.
rz
---
I've only used Kumho and Michelin.
I broke a wheel a rally with Kumhos and after running Michelin, wouldn't use them except in soft mud.
Michelins hold up better, can be used longer, don't fail, work well on tarmac (Kumhos don't) and don't squirm.
A turn you would hit within a foot on a Kumho you can hit in 2 inches with the Michelin. Much more precise.
You will wear out a Kumho in less time and not get any extra performance in return.
Looking at other people and their problems, I believe Silverstones have more flats and Pirellis delaminate if run over 100mph to long.
These are just my observations over four years.
rz
| RB5 Clone | 04-03-2005 10:49 PM |
rally tire alchemy
�
�
[QUOTE=randy zimmer]
I broke a wheel a rally with Kumhos and after running Michelin, wouldn't use them except in soft mud.
Michelins hold up better, can be used longer, don't fail, work well on tarmac (Kumhos don't) and don't squirm.
rz[/QUOTE]
I've not had such bad luck with Kumhos...I just dent the wheels instead of breaking them :huh: Taco'ed 3 of my good super-tough Technomagnesio rims at Rally NY running the Kumhos. Have had quite good luck with the Kumhos in soft/wet conditions, tho. Some combination of tread compound and their open blocky tread pattern works great in the slop. When they're new and the tread blocks are nice and sharp, they work darn good in gravel.
I'm continuing to run Kumhos on my RS racer, they seem fine on the lower powered car. But our team's 98 WRX eats em up in anything except the wettest going. We ran Michelins for a couple seasons with good results...except for the time we went out on a half-frozen stage on hard compound ones and crashed hard after only a couple of km. (this was our fault for inappropriate tire choice, tho, not the Michelins') They also make a variety of compounds suited to whatever conditions you might find out there. Just apply cubic $$.
As our team manager said above, we have switched to Yokos and are happy happy, especially with the soft compound AO35s. Their snow and ice tires are also superb...and I have a fresh set of super-sexay Yoko tarmac gumballs just waiting to lay rubber to pavement at Rally NY in a couple weeks.
cheers,
Dave G
Connoisseur and collector of worn-wout gravel tires
LDR
I broke a wheel a rally with Kumhos and after running Michelin, wouldn't use them except in soft mud.
Michelins hold up better, can be used longer, don't fail, work well on tarmac (Kumhos don't) and don't squirm.
rz[/QUOTE]
I've not had such bad luck with Kumhos...I just dent the wheels instead of breaking them :huh: Taco'ed 3 of my good super-tough Technomagnesio rims at Rally NY running the Kumhos. Have had quite good luck with the Kumhos in soft/wet conditions, tho. Some combination of tread compound and their open blocky tread pattern works great in the slop. When they're new and the tread blocks are nice and sharp, they work darn good in gravel.
I'm continuing to run Kumhos on my RS racer, they seem fine on the lower powered car. But our team's 98 WRX eats em up in anything except the wettest going. We ran Michelins for a couple seasons with good results...except for the time we went out on a half-frozen stage on hard compound ones and crashed hard after only a couple of km. (this was our fault for inappropriate tire choice, tho, not the Michelins') They also make a variety of compounds suited to whatever conditions you might find out there. Just apply cubic $$.
As our team manager said above, we have switched to Yokos and are happy happy, especially with the soft compound AO35s. Their snow and ice tires are also superb...and I have a fresh set of super-sexay Yoko tarmac gumballs just waiting to lay rubber to pavement at Rally NY in a couple weeks.
cheers,
Dave G
Connoisseur and collector of worn-wout gravel tires
LDR
| Robin2 | 04-04-2005 12:07 AM |
Our driver was sponsored by Yokohama last year.... and they were much better than the silverstones.... He only requested 035 softs in 195-65-15 and 205-65-15 sizes.... Sidewalls were very stiff.....
We'd groove them for the really muddy/soft conditions.... not sure if it helped.... (I was learning what our tire guy was doing)..... At each rally, we'd use about 4-5 sets per race... as each set saw about 3 or 4 stages....
They still had lots tread... but since they were our sponsor..... we had a good supply of tires..... afterwards, lot of other teams would buy our used tires....
Year before.... we mainly ran silverstones (soft, medium and hard compound)...... mediocre tire.... at best..... lots of flats.... but the evo is an open class.... probably not a good combo..... lower hp car or novice driver probably would have been fine.....
The only michelins we ran were winters..... such as C5's and another discontinued one.... g something....
Robin
We'd groove them for the really muddy/soft conditions.... not sure if it helped.... (I was learning what our tire guy was doing)..... At each rally, we'd use about 4-5 sets per race... as each set saw about 3 or 4 stages....
They still had lots tread... but since they were our sponsor..... we had a good supply of tires..... afterwards, lot of other teams would buy our used tires....
Year before.... we mainly ran silverstones (soft, medium and hard compound)...... mediocre tire.... at best..... lots of flats.... but the evo is an open class.... probably not a good combo..... lower hp car or novice driver probably would have been fine.....
The only michelins we ran were winters..... such as C5's and another discontinued one.... g something....
Robin
| JC_595 | 04-04-2005 08:46 AM |
We ran Yoko A035's on the G2 GTI & loved them. They worked very well. Much better than the Kuhmo's.
We are trying both Pirelli's & Michlins on the WRX. So far in practice, the Michlins seem much more stiff in the sidewall in hard slides on hardpack. I have alos heard from Utecht that the Michelins are more durable.
The Pirelli's have a little more open corner pattern, which I think will be better in the soft stuff. So we'll be using both in varying conditions...
Kuhmo's & Silverstones seem to be very effective Club/Regional tires for the money.
Good luck & have fun!
JC
We are trying both Pirelli's & Michlins on the WRX. So far in practice, the Michlins seem much more stiff in the sidewall in hard slides on hardpack. I have alos heard from Utecht that the Michelins are more durable.
The Pirelli's have a little more open corner pattern, which I think will be better in the soft stuff. So we'll be using both in varying conditions...
Kuhmo's & Silverstones seem to be very effective Club/Regional tires for the money.
Good luck & have fun!
JC
| bjorn240 | 04-04-2005 09:05 AM |
I'll echo Robin's comments.
Andrew and I ran the Silverstones in 2002. They were ok, but we were forced to run very high tire pressures to compensate for the weak sidewalls, and we still had more flats that year than I think is reasonable. I think Silverstones may be appropriate if you're just out there having fun. If you're trying to win, they appear to me to be false economy.
As between the Michelins and the Pirellis, I'd give a slight edge to the Michelins. In my experience, in the same compound, Pirellis tend to wear less than a Michelin, but once a Pirelli is half-worn it seems to lose a lot of grip and be basically worn out. Michelins seem to stay sticky until there's basically nothing left. And clearly, in the US, the price favors Michelin.
- Christian
Andrew and I ran the Silverstones in 2002. They were ok, but we were forced to run very high tire pressures to compensate for the weak sidewalls, and we still had more flats that year than I think is reasonable. I think Silverstones may be appropriate if you're just out there having fun. If you're trying to win, they appear to me to be false economy.
As between the Michelins and the Pirellis, I'd give a slight edge to the Michelins. In my experience, in the same compound, Pirellis tend to wear less than a Michelin, but once a Pirelli is half-worn it seems to lose a lot of grip and be basically worn out. Michelins seem to stay sticky until there's basically nothing left. And clearly, in the US, the price favors Michelin.
- Christian
| 10th Warrior | 04-04-2005 12:06 PM |
the R800 has been out for awhile now, but its not available here AFAIK.
Also, one of the RX7's at 100AW was on Hankooks, so there must be some in the country ;)
Also, one of the RX7's at 100AW was on Hankooks, so there must be some in the country ;)
| erikkellison | 04-04-2005 04:48 PM |
Anyone know if there's anything cheaper than the Kumho's that's still a "rally" tire and not a cheap snow tire?
| rupertberr | 04-04-2005 05:14 PM |
[QUOTE=erikkellison]Anyone know if there's anything cheaper than the Kumho's that's still a "rally" tire and not a cheap snow tire?[/QUOTE]
Used rally tires.
Used rally tires.
| erikkellison | 04-04-2005 05:30 PM |
Know anyone in WA that sells used rally tires? I can't find any teams in either Seattle or Vancouver, BC that have advertised that they have tires for sale.
Well, I did find one guy, but he wanted $50/tire and they were about half worn, which means they have used 2/3 of their life up, and I get the crappy last 1/3, for $50, when I can get Kumho's shipped to me for $90/tire, and they're new?
Seriously, any teams in NW WA or SW BC that have tires to sell me that are decent?
Well, I did find one guy, but he wanted $50/tire and they were about half worn, which means they have used 2/3 of their life up, and I get the crappy last 1/3, for $50, when I can get Kumho's shipped to me for $90/tire, and they're new?
Seriously, any teams in NW WA or SW BC that have tires to sell me that are decent?
| sunnynw | 04-04-2005 07:09 PM |
[QUOTE=erikkellison]
Seriously, any teams in NW WA or SW BC that have tires to sell me that are decent?[/QUOTE]
Dave Clark has some of the Hintz brother's used Pirellis. Most are approximately 64 centimeters high and 16 centimeters wide (Pirelli 205-65-15). Prices are probably $10 to $20 depending on DC's mood.
Located at Dave Clark's shop near Seatac (425-221-2470).
Seriously, any teams in NW WA or SW BC that have tires to sell me that are decent?[/QUOTE]
Dave Clark has some of the Hintz brother's used Pirellis. Most are approximately 64 centimeters high and 16 centimeters wide (Pirelli 205-65-15). Prices are probably $10 to $20 depending on DC's mood.
Located at Dave Clark's shop near Seatac (425-221-2470).
| thechickencow | 04-04-2005 07:23 PM |
Prices for Clark also depend on how tall the stack of tires is. :)
A good tire used is still great for rallyx and such.
A good tire used is still great for rallyx and such.
| Rallycarperson | 04-04-2005 08:20 PM |
I noticed that most of the 'big boys' are using Pirellis. Any reason for this?
-Mark
MAPmotors.com
-Mark
MAPmotors.com
| bjorn240 | 04-04-2005 10:24 PM |
[QUOTE=Rallycarperson]'big boys' [/QUOTE]
Assuming you mean WRC drivers, the answer is money and marketing. The tire contracts are decided between the car manufacturers and the tire manufacturers. The drivers have very little, if any input in the process. They drive the tires they're given, and provide feedback to the manufacturer to develop them further.
- Christian
Assuming you mean WRC drivers, the answer is money and marketing. The tire contracts are decided between the car manufacturers and the tire manufacturers. The drivers have very little, if any input in the process. They drive the tires they're given, and provide feedback to the manufacturer to develop them further.
- Christian
| erikkellison | 04-05-2005 01:35 AM |
I don't think he meant WRC, because from the looks of it, there are at least as many contending WRC rally teams running Michelin as there are running Pirelli. Regardless, the reason stated above is the reason as soon as you hit sponsorship. They give you free tires, you take them. They usually work so close to what any other manufacturer is offering that it comes down more to the individual tire selection than the manufacturer.
| bjorn240 | 04-05-2005 10:59 AM |
[QUOTE=erikkellison]I don't think he meant WRC[/QUOTE]
Well, he certainly can't have meant in the US. I think Peter Workum and Alex Gelsomino may have run them last year. Maybe. But they'd be the only ones, as far as I know.
Other than that, I can't think of any competitors who've used them since Prodrive packed their bags in 2003.
- Christian
Well, he certainly can't have meant in the US. I think Peter Workum and Alex Gelsomino may have run them last year. Maybe. But they'd be the only ones, as far as I know.
Other than that, I can't think of any competitors who've used them since Prodrive packed their bags in 2003.
- Christian
| JC_595 | 04-05-2005 12:19 PM |
Yes, Graham (Autosport Engineering) uses Pirelli. I bought a new set of take-off Michelins from him & some used P's too. He's got oodles of new Pirelli's for use & for sale.
I would guess that due to their business with Graham, Jon B & Otis D may use P's also.
I would guess that due to their business with Graham, Jon B & Otis D may use P's also.
| digitalpimp | 04-05-2005 12:39 PM |
CPD uses Pirelli tires. a lot of the ones sold by autosport are old and old compounds from what i hear. but i beleive he's about to order a new load of pirellies and then he'll have the new stuff. we ran a few new-new tires on doug havir's car and they were a fair bit better, a little softer, and lasted longer.
i also thought patR ran pirelli...
usually i hear pirelli for gravel, michelin for tarmac. pirelli are a lot better for avoiding punctures too.
i also thought patR ran pirelli...
usually i hear pirelli for gravel, michelin for tarmac. pirelli are a lot better for avoiding punctures too.
| MarkA | 04-05-2005 02:32 PM |
Anyone find a source/pricing info on the Hankook's?
| bjorn240 | 04-05-2005 03:54 PM |
[QUOTE=digitalpimp]pirelli are a lot better for avoiding punctures too.[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure you can say that with any certainty at all. Since 2003, I've run probably 800 stage miles on Michelins. In that time, I've experienced two punctures, one of which was caused by hitting a berm so hard I saw stars, so I'm willing to bet no rally tire would have held up to that.
I think the only people who would have any sense of the puncture resistance of the tires would be a WRC team that has run both in back-to-back seasons. Other than that, there are just too many variables and too little stage mileage to make any meaningful comparison.
- Christian
I'm not sure you can say that with any certainty at all. Since 2003, I've run probably 800 stage miles on Michelins. In that time, I've experienced two punctures, one of which was caused by hitting a berm so hard I saw stars, so I'm willing to bet no rally tire would have held up to that.
I think the only people who would have any sense of the puncture resistance of the tires would be a WRC team that has run both in back-to-back seasons. Other than that, there are just too many variables and too little stage mileage to make any meaningful comparison.
- Christian
| erikkellison | 04-05-2005 04:01 PM |
I've been watching the 2004 WRC season, and I can't see any team willfully using a tire knowing it will be much less effective at preventing punctures. Peugot switched to Pirelli in 2004 for the 2005 season, but that's not because they were having puncture problems. They were one of the teams with the least puncture problems. Can you imagine a team who gets a tire for free running said tire, knowing it may end all chances of a finish? I think it was on Cyprus that Solberg got three punctures in one stage on Pirelli's, yet was able to finish because of that autoinflate mousse thingy.
I do find it interesting though that all the WRC cars DO seem to run either P's or M's, and no Silverstones, Black Rockets, Kumhos, etc. etc...
I do find it interesting though that all the WRC cars DO seem to run either P's or M's, and no Silverstones, Black Rockets, Kumhos, etc. etc...
| digitalpimp | 04-05-2005 04:42 PM |
i personally have little experince with the michelins, but i've heard at least 4 very experienced (a few ex-prodrive) people say that pirelli's have a much stronger sidewall. and the one m tire that i looked at off the rim didn't seem to have nearly as thick of a sidewall as a pirelli. eventually you reach the point where you either add weight to make the tire more relilable, or have a lighter tire and risk it breaking.
i'm sure one reason you don't see other tire manufacturers is that they don't have enough tire choices. take pirelli for example, most of them look the same, but you have both K's and KM's, in 2 4 and 6 compounds, and then RF (reinforced) of all of those. and this is just for the basic gravel tire design. and beyond that, if your a big team, you work with pirelli and they make you special test compounts (a few of which are floating around here in the states). then you add in tarmac tires, hard gravel/clay tires, snow, ect...
also, i'd assume that most of the other tire manufactures can not put that effort forth. you have to send your own employee's out to the events to moniter the tires, fit them, conduct PR. and also simply to pay enought to have your name on the side of the car. on top of all of that, what if your tire isn't good enough at the end of the day? all for theoretical sales? who here has bought a pirelli because SWRT uses them?
wow i got off topic. {/rant}
i'm sure one reason you don't see other tire manufacturers is that they don't have enough tire choices. take pirelli for example, most of them look the same, but you have both K's and KM's, in 2 4 and 6 compounds, and then RF (reinforced) of all of those. and this is just for the basic gravel tire design. and beyond that, if your a big team, you work with pirelli and they make you special test compounts (a few of which are floating around here in the states). then you add in tarmac tires, hard gravel/clay tires, snow, ect...
also, i'd assume that most of the other tire manufactures can not put that effort forth. you have to send your own employee's out to the events to moniter the tires, fit them, conduct PR. and also simply to pay enought to have your name on the side of the car. on top of all of that, what if your tire isn't good enough at the end of the day? all for theoretical sales? who here has bought a pirelli because SWRT uses them?
wow i got off topic. {/rant}
| Rallycarperson | 04-05-2005 08:25 PM |
Well, yeah I meant in the US. After looking at many Open Class cars (two years ago), I have noticed that many people used Pirellis.
Graham, AFAIK used Pirellis, because Autosport Eng carries them.
-Mark
MAPmotors.com
Graham, AFAIK used Pirellis, because Autosport Eng carries them.
-Mark
MAPmotors.com
| thechickencow | 04-05-2005 11:15 PM |
Looks like the hankooks are avaliable now, we're checking on availiability and such. I'll post once I know more, but more than likely due to pricing and being a dealer I'll be running them later this year.
Jay
Jay
| patr | 04-06-2005 02:52 AM |
eveyone can guess but I've run thousands of kms on multiple brands (000s on each brand) including 'customer' and 'non-customer' spec tires and I can assure you that ther top brands (pirelli and michelin) each have their own advantages. If you dont know why you need them, you dont need them. Including one car/test rig that ran on three brands over three seasons.
crappystones have crap sidewalls, but decent gravel compounds in terms of compound grip
michelin has grippier compounds than pirelli but weaker sidewalls
pirelli km pattern is better than michelin za in damp/muddy/gravelly
pirelli have stiffer feel but michelins you can feel the tires better (for ze feeling for ze Auriol fans) - so feeling wise some drivers prefer the 'bite' feeling on michelin and others prefer the 'ok it grips' feeling on pirelli
anyone who says silverstones are as good doesn't know what they are talking about
yokos have better mud traction than all but have crappy pattern for light gravel, and have way better sidewalls than kumho or silverstone, they are close to michelin but not as strong and the compounds not as grippy/durable, but not that far off. Like quite close, just the pattern on the 'customer' tires that is off. The 'non-customer' yokos (not available here) are equal to our customer michelins.
I disagree with christian I would rather drive on a 50km pirelli than a 50km michelin, but I would rather drive on a zero km michelin than a zero km pirelli (50km of 'real' use), but it is all compopund, tread and condition dependent. You cant generalize so much. Dont look at WRC guys, for one the tires are not available to you anyways, they might look the same but trust me they are not.
if you want to know what people want, look to see what the top teams who pay for their tires are using.
there are the top 2 brands, yoko right behind, and the rest way behind.
As a beginner all you should care about is durability, not compound. By the time you figure out how to use the compound they will be worn out anyways. on top of that, the compounds are tempaerature dependent and the top teams will take AT LEAST 2-3 compounds to a rally.
If you want used gravel tires in BC see email [email="[email�protected]"][email�protected][/email]. Some sell for $30 cdn and some sell for $100+ depending on what is on them. We have sold over 200 used gravel tires in the last 2 months alone no complaints. About 100 left. We have a strict policy of only selling used stuff to locals. If it were me, I would buy a used michelin/pirelli (you dont need the compound since you are not wearing them down anyhow) since it will last through ten times as much beat down as a lesser brand. For new the yokos have the best value/price point. But hey what do I know. Don't listen to people who are speculating about product they have never used !
crappystones have crap sidewalls, but decent gravel compounds in terms of compound grip
michelin has grippier compounds than pirelli but weaker sidewalls
pirelli km pattern is better than michelin za in damp/muddy/gravelly
pirelli have stiffer feel but michelins you can feel the tires better (for ze feeling for ze Auriol fans) - so feeling wise some drivers prefer the 'bite' feeling on michelin and others prefer the 'ok it grips' feeling on pirelli
anyone who says silverstones are as good doesn't know what they are talking about
yokos have better mud traction than all but have crappy pattern for light gravel, and have way better sidewalls than kumho or silverstone, they are close to michelin but not as strong and the compounds not as grippy/durable, but not that far off. Like quite close, just the pattern on the 'customer' tires that is off. The 'non-customer' yokos (not available here) are equal to our customer michelins.
I disagree with christian I would rather drive on a 50km pirelli than a 50km michelin, but I would rather drive on a zero km michelin than a zero km pirelli (50km of 'real' use), but it is all compopund, tread and condition dependent. You cant generalize so much. Dont look at WRC guys, for one the tires are not available to you anyways, they might look the same but trust me they are not.
if you want to know what people want, look to see what the top teams who pay for their tires are using.
there are the top 2 brands, yoko right behind, and the rest way behind.
As a beginner all you should care about is durability, not compound. By the time you figure out how to use the compound they will be worn out anyways. on top of that, the compounds are tempaerature dependent and the top teams will take AT LEAST 2-3 compounds to a rally.
If you want used gravel tires in BC see email [email="[email�protected]"][email�protected][/email]. Some sell for $30 cdn and some sell for $100+ depending on what is on them. We have sold over 200 used gravel tires in the last 2 months alone no complaints. About 100 left. We have a strict policy of only selling used stuff to locals. If it were me, I would buy a used michelin/pirelli (you dont need the compound since you are not wearing them down anyhow) since it will last through ten times as much beat down as a lesser brand. For new the yokos have the best value/price point. But hey what do I know. Don't listen to people who are speculating about product they have never used !
| LyveWRX | 04-06-2005 08:28 AM |
Thanks pat.
| rallynutdon | 04-06-2005 01:40 PM |
[QUOTE=digitalpimp]i personally have little experince with the michelins, but i've heard at least 4 very experienced (a few ex-prodrive) people say that pirelli's have a much stronger sidewall. [/QUOTE]
I don't know about puncture resistance, but I bought 5 Pirellis and ran them about 2 years ago. The side wall was much stiffer (actually too stiff) than the Michelins. They were a real bitch to mount! I did have one develop a huge bubble in the side wall after only 1 event. I've only had 1 real puncture with the Michelins.
I don't know about puncture resistance, but I bought 5 Pirellis and ran them about 2 years ago. The side wall was much stiffer (actually too stiff) than the Michelins. They were a real bitch to mount! I did have one develop a huge bubble in the side wall after only 1 event. I've only had 1 real puncture with the Michelins.
| wagonbeast | 04-06-2005 05:38 PM |
I've used them all, and my 2 cents is don't waste your time with the silverstones and kumhos. A blow out or bubble will happen quickly and quickly annoy you as well. Performance of new michelins and new pirellis is very similar, but I like the stiff sidewall feel of the pirelli and its wear characteristics.
| digitalpimp | 04-06-2005 09:23 PM |
[QUOTE=rallynutdon]I don't know about puncture resistance, but I bought 5 Pirellis and ran them about 2 years ago. The side wall was much stiffer (actually too stiff) than the Michelins. They were a real bitch to mount! I did have one develop a huge bubble in the side wall after only 1 event. I've only had 1 real puncture with the Michelins.[/QUOTE]
oh baby are they hard to mount! i thought my 275/40/17 victorracers were bad, nope.
oh baby are they hard to mount! i thought my 275/40/17 victorracers were bad, nope.
| LyveWRX | 04-11-2005 02:00 PM |
Ok so this thread seems to be right on time. Some questions:
1. In the coverage of rally NZ last night the michelin tires tended to last much longer than the perelli tires. When one of the Mitsu drivers came up to the camera the tire was shredded and lots of really yellow fabric was flapping around. Pat says we cant buy the tires that they use in WRC. my ? is:
What do you think, have teh WRC tires become specialized composite constructions of rubber, kevlar, and steel.
And if so, what is the difference when compared to the tires that we can buy?
2. Does anyone remember teh designation of the Michelin tire that everyone liked?
3. It also seemed to me that the better drivers; (more experience/faster); got way more life from their tires. Is that true, smoother, more efficient drivers place less demands on their tires so they retain their performace longer into the stage?
1. In the coverage of rally NZ last night the michelin tires tended to last much longer than the perelli tires. When one of the Mitsu drivers came up to the camera the tire was shredded and lots of really yellow fabric was flapping around. Pat says we cant buy the tires that they use in WRC. my ? is:
What do you think, have teh WRC tires become specialized composite constructions of rubber, kevlar, and steel.
And if so, what is the difference when compared to the tires that we can buy?
2. Does anyone remember teh designation of the Michelin tire that everyone liked?
3. It also seemed to me that the better drivers; (more experience/faster); got way more life from their tires. Is that true, smoother, more efficient drivers place less demands on their tires so they retain their performace longer into the stage?
| bjorn240 | 04-11-2005 02:17 PM |
[QUOTE=LyveWRX] What do you think, have the WRC tires become specialized composite constructions of rubber, kevlar, and steel.[/QUOTE]
All radial ply tires are specialized composite constructions of rubber, steel, polyester etc. Some also have aramid fibers as part of the ply. If you're getting at the underlying [I]method[/I] of construction, the tires used in WRC aren't that different from the ones available to customers.
[QUOTE=LyveWRX] And if so, what is the difference when compared to the tires that we can buy?
[/QUOTE]
The compounds are different and the construction details (# of plies, material and construction of plies) are different. If you pick up a customer-spec tire and a WRC-spec tire in either hand, you can feel the difference in weight easily. I don't have an estimate for the difference, but it's easily a few pounds. Basically, in the way we think about tire "models," it's a totally different tire.
And yes, drivers who drive "smoother", with less tire scrub, definitely make their tires last longer.
- Christian
All radial ply tires are specialized composite constructions of rubber, steel, polyester etc. Some also have aramid fibers as part of the ply. If you're getting at the underlying [I]method[/I] of construction, the tires used in WRC aren't that different from the ones available to customers.
[QUOTE=LyveWRX] And if so, what is the difference when compared to the tires that we can buy?
[/QUOTE]
The compounds are different and the construction details (# of plies, material and construction of plies) are different. If you pick up a customer-spec tire and a WRC-spec tire in either hand, you can feel the difference in weight easily. I don't have an estimate for the difference, but it's easily a few pounds. Basically, in the way we think about tire "models," it's a totally different tire.
And yes, drivers who drive "smoother", with less tire scrub, definitely make their tires last longer.
- Christian
| erikkellison | 04-11-2005 02:25 PM |
I didn't get to watch the rally, but I'll bet the Michelin that everyone liked was the "Z" tire with the close tread pattern in a hard compound. I've noticed that Markko Martin seems to do well with tire life despite his preference for slightly softer tires because he likes to track through corners more than slide. I'd be willing to bet that Gronholm and probably Duval both had tire longevity problems. However, Michelin versus Pirelli? I thought that the Pirelli gravel tire usually outlasted and worked better on gravel than the Michy... but then again, Solberg and Gronholm aren't exactly what you'd call "laid back" drivers...
I would be interested to find out if someone did a side-by-side comparison of WRC tires versus commercially available counterparts. I know that the WRC cars run a mousse, and I wouldn't be surprised if the sidewalls were beefier or there was some sort of dual compound in some of the tires, if indeed they are different. However, unless they're testing tires while competing, I can't see them running something all that different from what we can buy. Definitive information on this would indeed be cool.
I would be interested to find out if someone did a side-by-side comparison of WRC tires versus commercially available counterparts. I know that the WRC cars run a mousse, and I wouldn't be surprised if the sidewalls were beefier or there was some sort of dual compound in some of the tires, if indeed they are different. However, unless they're testing tires while competing, I can't see them running something all that different from what we can buy. Definitive information on this would indeed be cool.
| GravelRash | 04-11-2005 07:52 PM |
Why ever not? Consider that they do small batches of tires - even smaller under the new rules, and vary at least the compound(s) from venue to venue depending on expected conditions. Considering the stakes I have no doubt they do anything and everything within their current state of knowledge and technical capability to try to gain any advantage they can for their customers at that level of competition.
As for the tires we can buy, the volumes are miniscule compared to virtually any road - or even R compound - "normal" tire, and they have to meet a price point to sell any at all. They have no control over what venue the tire will be used in, so - again give the small volumes - they have to take their best guess at what will work well and give some reasonable longevity under a broad range of potential conditions. Then make them in batch sizes they can reasonably expect to sell and move them into the retail channels worldwide - months ahead of any potential actual use.
A WRC tire for expected "medium size crushed gravel, shallow, over soft sand and clay base, damp to wet with considerable recent rain, more expected on the stages, and temps from 5C to 10C" will likely be [I]completely[/I] different than one for "small rounded gravel, 3-6cm deep, over dry solid clay base, no recent rain, nor any expected on stage, temps 25-40C". Different compound(s?), tread pattern, possibly even carcass construction. And that could be just for 2 different days on the same rally!
A retail tire in some cases will just be that makers "gravel" tire (Kumho?); at most a small number of tread variations, possibly(?) with compound changes, in a given makers product line (Michelin) to handle any/all gravel/mud/dirt/sand/rock/etc. condition - anything and everything that isn't either tarmac of snow/ice.
As for the tires we can buy, the volumes are miniscule compared to virtually any road - or even R compound - "normal" tire, and they have to meet a price point to sell any at all. They have no control over what venue the tire will be used in, so - again give the small volumes - they have to take their best guess at what will work well and give some reasonable longevity under a broad range of potential conditions. Then make them in batch sizes they can reasonably expect to sell and move them into the retail channels worldwide - months ahead of any potential actual use.
A WRC tire for expected "medium size crushed gravel, shallow, over soft sand and clay base, damp to wet with considerable recent rain, more expected on the stages, and temps from 5C to 10C" will likely be [I]completely[/I] different than one for "small rounded gravel, 3-6cm deep, over dry solid clay base, no recent rain, nor any expected on stage, temps 25-40C". Different compound(s?), tread pattern, possibly even carcass construction. And that could be just for 2 different days on the same rally!
A retail tire in some cases will just be that makers "gravel" tire (Kumho?); at most a small number of tread variations, possibly(?) with compound changes, in a given makers product line (Michelin) to handle any/all gravel/mud/dirt/sand/rock/etc. condition - anything and everything that isn't either tarmac of snow/ice.
Không có nhận xét nào:
Đăng nhận xét