| WRXdonkey | 03-30-2006 02:22 PM |
The Subaru Slump - WRC 2006
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Just wondering, is it mechanical failure or is it the drivers? I can't believe that Gronholm can screw up as much as he has this season - through his own fault or through that of his vehicle, and he still climbs right back to the top over the next few stages.
Meanwhile, we've got the Subies with multiple mechanical failures, or just terrible luck (Atkinson) this season which they have yet to overcome. And many more issues contributing to their "failure to launch."
Would Solberg be a better driver without those Pirelli tires? To me, using something other than everyone else should be done to a distinct competitive advantage. On all surfaces (tarmac, light/heavy gravel, etc.) these tires seem to give out far sooner than the competitors' BFGs. Outside of contractual obligations, why the hell is Subaru still running these tires?
It's just gut wrenching seeing the entire Suby team chasing the top drivers who are inconsistent as they make their 3rd-8th place advances. Guys who are great drivers, but find themselves in the top 8 inconsistently are beating out Subaru's drivers this year.
The Ford and Citroen teams just seem to have such promise exuding from the capabilities of their drivers who, if not for their sometimes blatant mistakes, would always be top 8s.
What happened at Catalunya? Tires? I know Tarmac is tough for these Suby drivers, but is it really the driver or the car? Catalunya 2006 made a mockery of the entire team. To see the Peugot 307 and the Red Bull Skodas casually passing the Subaru team in the final stages was just another nail in the coffin.
It's getting painful to keep watching this season, can anyone shed some perspective on the future of this team that I'm unaware of as a result of this new management shift?
Sorry for the random tangients throughout the thread, I'm at work and keep getting interrupted ;-)
Meanwhile, we've got the Subies with multiple mechanical failures, or just terrible luck (Atkinson) this season which they have yet to overcome. And many more issues contributing to their "failure to launch."
Would Solberg be a better driver without those Pirelli tires? To me, using something other than everyone else should be done to a distinct competitive advantage. On all surfaces (tarmac, light/heavy gravel, etc.) these tires seem to give out far sooner than the competitors' BFGs. Outside of contractual obligations, why the hell is Subaru still running these tires?
It's just gut wrenching seeing the entire Suby team chasing the top drivers who are inconsistent as they make their 3rd-8th place advances. Guys who are great drivers, but find themselves in the top 8 inconsistently are beating out Subaru's drivers this year.
The Ford and Citroen teams just seem to have such promise exuding from the capabilities of their drivers who, if not for their sometimes blatant mistakes, would always be top 8s.
What happened at Catalunya? Tires? I know Tarmac is tough for these Suby drivers, but is it really the driver or the car? Catalunya 2006 made a mockery of the entire team. To see the Peugot 307 and the Red Bull Skodas casually passing the Subaru team in the final stages was just another nail in the coffin.
It's getting painful to keep watching this season, can anyone shed some perspective on the future of this team that I'm unaware of as a result of this new management shift?
Sorry for the random tangients throughout the thread, I'm at work and keep getting interrupted ;-)
| mav1c | 03-30-2006 02:25 PM |
I think I'm glad this season [i]isn't[/i] on Speed. :(
| WRXdonkey | 03-30-2006 02:27 PM |
Hey, my SWRT is owning it up in Richard Burns Rally 2005 for PC this year ;-)
| burnera | 03-30-2006 03:54 PM |
catalunya was pretty bad, and i think that one was the drivers just not knowing how to race on tarmac.
kinda back seat driving, but it looked like they kept entering corners as if they were gravel, which means taking a horrible line.
kinda back seat driving, but it looked like they kept entering corners as if they were gravel, which means taking a horrible line.
| endeavor | 03-30-2006 04:06 PM |
All I know is that I am starting to get a bit tired of hearing the same old tires and the GDB platform excuses. It has to go beyond that.
| culturedetox | 03-30-2006 04:12 PM |
Sebastian Loeb is god on tarmac and Marcus is just dang amazing on anything. I always thought petter was too inconsistent.
Plus, with more and more sealed surface stages, the subie can't be the gravel specialist that it is and remain completive in the WRC. that and the Pirelli�s are too greasy on tarmac. BF goodwrench (Michelin) tires have always been the better tarmac tire.
-patrick
[size=1]just my 2� [/size]
Plus, with more and more sealed surface stages, the subie can't be the gravel specialist that it is and remain completive in the WRC. that and the Pirelli�s are too greasy on tarmac. BF goodwrench (Michelin) tires have always been the better tarmac tire.
-patrick
[size=1]just my 2� [/size]
| Chromer | 03-30-2006 04:12 PM |
[QUOTE=burnera]catalunya was pretty bad, and i think that one was the drivers just not knowing how to race on tarmac.
kinda back seat driving, but it looked like they kept entering corners as if they were gravel, which means taking a horrible line.[/QUOTE]
Fine theory, except Sarrazin(sp?) is a tarmac specialist...
kinda back seat driving, but it looked like they kept entering corners as if they were gravel, which means taking a horrible line.[/QUOTE]
Fine theory, except Sarrazin(sp?) is a tarmac specialist...
| DILLIGAF Racing | 03-30-2006 04:38 PM |
I've been wondering how they are doing this year. I guess not so good.
| Thumper23 | 03-30-2006 05:04 PM |
[QUOTE=mav1c]I think I'm glad this season [i]isn't[/i] on Speed. :([/QUOTE]
I'm feeling the same way so far :(
I'm feeling the same way so far :(
| WRXdonkey | 03-30-2006 05:18 PM |
So the Pirellis are supposed to be good on gravel? The compounds weren't worth a crap in Mexico on the gravel.
Peter claims that the tires were his only issue in Mexico, throughout the entire rally, he consistently complained about the tires. That's about as gravel as it gets (Mexico).
Then, in Catalunya, we loose the friggin' brakes!?!? This was extremely dissappointing if you saw the Preview of Catalunya where the SWRT team leader goes over the importance of brakes on tarmac and highlights the differences between SWRT's gravel and tarmac brakes! Explaining further how important it is that they do not suffer from fade, etc. First thing that happens... Subaru gets walked, kudos to the brakes. =\
Peter claims that the tires were his only issue in Mexico, throughout the entire rally, he consistently complained about the tires. That's about as gravel as it gets (Mexico).
Then, in Catalunya, we loose the friggin' brakes!?!? This was extremely dissappointing if you saw the Preview of Catalunya where the SWRT team leader goes over the importance of brakes on tarmac and highlights the differences between SWRT's gravel and tarmac brakes! Explaining further how important it is that they do not suffer from fade, etc. First thing that happens... Subaru gets walked, kudos to the brakes. =\
| WRXedUSA | 03-30-2006 06:28 PM |
Mopho summarized some overseen points in this thread:
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13212709&postcount=94[/url]
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13212709&postcount=94[/url]
| datageek | 03-30-2006 08:44 PM |
[QUOTE]Would Solberg be a better driver without those Pirelli tires? [/QUOTE]
He would be the same driver. He just would have much more competative equipment. As an example, compare Sarrazin's performance in '04 versus his performance now. He should be doing better now than he had been doing in '04 since he has more rallying experience (and more experience of the events.) But he's struggling with the Pirellis to equal the results that he got while on Michelins. Same driver, different tires, different results.
[QUOTE]To me, using something other than everyone else should be done to a distinct competitive advantage. On all surfaces (tarmac, light/heavy gravel, etc.) these tires seem to give out far sooner than the competitors' BFGs. [/QUOTE]
Each tire has strengths and weaknesses, depending on conditions. You can't have one tire that is perfect for all surfaces and all conditions. Subaru trades off sucky performance on tarmac -- of which there are currently four out of sixteen rounds -- for better performance on the other three-quaters of the calendar.
(Okay, yes. I did choke when typing that "better performance". Last year Pirelli didn't seem to have much of an advantage on any surface. But previously they did.)
[QUOTE]Catalunya 2006 made a mockery of the entire team. To see the Peugot 307 and the Red Bull Skodas casually passing the Subaru team in the final stages was just another nail in the coffin. [/QUOTE]
I'm can't entirely agree with your statements here... First off, this year's finish was a lot better than last year's, where Petter finished in 13th, 18 minutes off the lead, and Sarrazin didn't finish at all. Points finishes for both drivers is progress from that perspective.
As for the cars... While the 307 wasn't great for winning rallies, but it was perfectly fine for getting on the podium. Alex Bengue may not be the most well known driver in the WRC, but he is very good on tarmac. And the Skodas... We've seen lots of examples of the car being fast in the right hands. (See Colin McRae in Rally Oz.) Francios Duval has always been fast on tarmac... And I'm not sure taking six stages of fighting to get past the Subarus could be called "causually passing".
I will agree that it's really tedious never seeing the Subarus finishing events at the top of the leaderboard. Unless the heavens open up and we get a rainstorm of Biblical proportions I wouldn't expect that to change in Corsica, though.
He would be the same driver. He just would have much more competative equipment. As an example, compare Sarrazin's performance in '04 versus his performance now. He should be doing better now than he had been doing in '04 since he has more rallying experience (and more experience of the events.) But he's struggling with the Pirellis to equal the results that he got while on Michelins. Same driver, different tires, different results.
[QUOTE]To me, using something other than everyone else should be done to a distinct competitive advantage. On all surfaces (tarmac, light/heavy gravel, etc.) these tires seem to give out far sooner than the competitors' BFGs. [/QUOTE]
Each tire has strengths and weaknesses, depending on conditions. You can't have one tire that is perfect for all surfaces and all conditions. Subaru trades off sucky performance on tarmac -- of which there are currently four out of sixteen rounds -- for better performance on the other three-quaters of the calendar.
(Okay, yes. I did choke when typing that "better performance". Last year Pirelli didn't seem to have much of an advantage on any surface. But previously they did.)
[QUOTE]Catalunya 2006 made a mockery of the entire team. To see the Peugot 307 and the Red Bull Skodas casually passing the Subaru team in the final stages was just another nail in the coffin. [/QUOTE]
I'm can't entirely agree with your statements here... First off, this year's finish was a lot better than last year's, where Petter finished in 13th, 18 minutes off the lead, and Sarrazin didn't finish at all. Points finishes for both drivers is progress from that perspective.
As for the cars... While the 307 wasn't great for winning rallies, but it was perfectly fine for getting on the podium. Alex Bengue may not be the most well known driver in the WRC, but he is very good on tarmac. And the Skodas... We've seen lots of examples of the car being fast in the right hands. (See Colin McRae in Rally Oz.) Francios Duval has always been fast on tarmac... And I'm not sure taking six stages of fighting to get past the Subarus could be called "causually passing".
I will agree that it's really tedious never seeing the Subarus finishing events at the top of the leaderboard. Unless the heavens open up and we get a rainstorm of Biblical proportions I wouldn't expect that to change in Corsica, though.
| datageek | 03-30-2006 08:52 PM |
[QUOTE=WRXdonkey]So the Pirellis are supposed to be good on gravel? The compounds weren't worth a crap in Mexico on the gravel. [/QUOTE]
Petter led the entire rally until the power steering failed on the last stage of the second day. What part of that is not worth a crap?
[QUOTE]Peter claims that the tires were his only issue in Mexico, [/QUOTE]
I dunno... I think if you asked him how he felt about the power steering he might have a few minor complaints in that direction.
Petter led the entire rally until the power steering failed on the last stage of the second day. What part of that is not worth a crap?
[QUOTE]Peter claims that the tires were his only issue in Mexico, [/QUOTE]
I dunno... I think if you asked him how he felt about the power steering he might have a few minor complaints in that direction.
| Slick33 | 03-30-2006 09:23 PM |
From my perspective, there's a whole lot of issues plaguing the SWRT. As mentioned, the tires and mechanical failures are the two biggest ones. Then there's the drivers - Petter is a fine driver, but one can't help wonder if his confidence has been shaken by not scoring a win in about a year now. Loeb is on a roll, Gronholm looks poised to make his comeback after a few lame seasons with the 307, and there's a lot of younger drivers and experienced but lesser-known guys that are starting to show what they're made of, so Petter may be feeling the heat more than he did when he won the title a few years back. Atkinson shows promise, but he also displays the Duval syndrome of not making it to the end of the rally in one piece. With more time, he could be a great driver, but he needs to quit making mistakes that damage the car.
Finally, as Petter showed us at the end of last season, the team has just been hitting a string of bad luck. It happens to the best teams in any motorsport, and all we can do as fans is just wait it out and hope for the best!
Part of me hopes that SWRT can get their act together, but I've got to admit that watching Ford show that they've got what it takes to compete this season has got me rooting for the home team (even if the car they're using is light years ahead of the lame ducks we can drive away from the dealership). I just hope Gronholm can beat Loeb this year...I never did care much for that guy! :P
Finally, as Petter showed us at the end of last season, the team has just been hitting a string of bad luck. It happens to the best teams in any motorsport, and all we can do as fans is just wait it out and hope for the best!
Part of me hopes that SWRT can get their act together, but I've got to admit that watching Ford show that they've got what it takes to compete this season has got me rooting for the home team (even if the car they're using is light years ahead of the lame ducks we can drive away from the dealership). I just hope Gronholm can beat Loeb this year...I never did care much for that guy! :P
| Chromer | 03-30-2006 10:01 PM |
One other thing on the tires: They have to nominate their tires about a month in advance, which means making an educated guess on what the air and pavement temperatures are going to be. IIRC they're allowed to nominate two different compounds, along with intermediate and wet tires. Wouldn't be the first time Pirelli made a really bad guess on compounds (this year...)
| HeyChris | 03-31-2006 12:01 AM |
:subscribe:
- btw, anyone know how long their contract is with Pirelli, or why they keep renewing it? Heck, they might as well run a Bridgestones.... :shrugs:
- btw, anyone know how long their contract is with Pirelli, or why they keep renewing it? Heck, they might as well run a Bridgestones.... :shrugs:
| WRXdonkey | 03-31-2006 12:50 AM |
[QUOTE=datageek]Petter led the entire rally until the power steering failed on the last stage of the second day. What part of that is not worth a crap?
I dunno... I think if you asked him how he felt about the power steering he might have a few minor complaints in that direction.[/QUOTE]
I stand corrected, forgot about that power steering issue! I remembered him complaining about the tires, but not the mechanical failure.
Thanks for your insights in the post prior to the quotes above. You're right on so many levels, that's why I wanted to bring this to light... see what others think about this season.
It's just been a frustrating season, and I think you're dead on when you say that Corisica will be just as frustrating. Perhaps the season will "do a 180" for the SWRT once we get off of the tarmac.
Until then, I'll be taking my Richard Burns Rally 2005 WRX to the top and rooting for the SWRT ;-)
____
Also, good points on Gronholm/Ford. It's a damned shame that we've never been offered a Cosworth! I'm rooting for Gronholm (even though he looks like an anorexic herman munster) whenever SWRT is out within the first 1/2 of the rally. I have to say, I'm thoroughly impressed with Loeb's speed and sheer tenacity... but I just can't get myself to root for the guy. Gronholm's got my vote for winner if SWRT drivers can't pull it off this year. He's an awesome driver, he's never cocky, and he never allows his success to get to his head. His success this season has definitely given me a whole new respect for those Fords. I was far from impressed until I saw him and Hirvonen start working them this year. If Hirvonen can drop the Atkinson syndrome, then he'll be a podium candidate.
Loeb isn't a bad guy... I just can't find myself rooting for that guy, even remotely. Probably because he's French... who the hell knows.
Regardless, it's shaping up to be one hell of a season... I think the competition will get thicker as we get off of tarmac. :banana:
I dunno... I think if you asked him how he felt about the power steering he might have a few minor complaints in that direction.[/QUOTE]
I stand corrected, forgot about that power steering issue! I remembered him complaining about the tires, but not the mechanical failure.
Thanks for your insights in the post prior to the quotes above. You're right on so many levels, that's why I wanted to bring this to light... see what others think about this season.
It's just been a frustrating season, and I think you're dead on when you say that Corisica will be just as frustrating. Perhaps the season will "do a 180" for the SWRT once we get off of the tarmac.
Until then, I'll be taking my Richard Burns Rally 2005 WRX to the top and rooting for the SWRT ;-)
____
Also, good points on Gronholm/Ford. It's a damned shame that we've never been offered a Cosworth! I'm rooting for Gronholm (even though he looks like an anorexic herman munster) whenever SWRT is out within the first 1/2 of the rally. I have to say, I'm thoroughly impressed with Loeb's speed and sheer tenacity... but I just can't get myself to root for the guy. Gronholm's got my vote for winner if SWRT drivers can't pull it off this year. He's an awesome driver, he's never cocky, and he never allows his success to get to his head. His success this season has definitely given me a whole new respect for those Fords. I was far from impressed until I saw him and Hirvonen start working them this year. If Hirvonen can drop the Atkinson syndrome, then he'll be a podium candidate.
Loeb isn't a bad guy... I just can't find myself rooting for that guy, even remotely. Probably because he's French... who the hell knows.
Regardless, it's shaping up to be one hell of a season... I think the competition will get thicker as we get off of tarmac. :banana:
| meebs | 03-31-2006 09:58 AM |
Perhaps Prodrive are shifting focus to F1? While I'm sure there is enough personel to go around to run both series, I'm gathering there is an over all shift of mental focus within the company.
| chaddeus | 03-31-2006 11:39 AM |
Actually, the mechanical failure can be blamed by luck and also the design. Citroen usually is a very reliable car and we can see it last year. Loeb is seen as a smoother driver compared to Solberg thus putting less stress on the component.
The tires is also another issue. Initially, Pirelli's have an advantage on gravel surfaces but we see that they no longer have the advantage last year. They are at most on par on gravel surfaces.
As for who's a better driver. I don't know. Its hard to say and top drivers do not want to admit that they are worst but we can see that Loeb is really good and don't make mistakes. As for Marcus and Solberg. I don't know.
For cars, I don't know either but when Hirvonen drove Subaru, he wasn't doing well. Then switched to Ford and been doing pretty well.
As for the Subaru Management, I don't think its the shift of focus or whatever reason. They have the same mechanic, some group of people but just different upper management but its not the upper management that design the car.
- Charles
The tires is also another issue. Initially, Pirelli's have an advantage on gravel surfaces but we see that they no longer have the advantage last year. They are at most on par on gravel surfaces.
As for who's a better driver. I don't know. Its hard to say and top drivers do not want to admit that they are worst but we can see that Loeb is really good and don't make mistakes. As for Marcus and Solberg. I don't know.
For cars, I don't know either but when Hirvonen drove Subaru, he wasn't doing well. Then switched to Ford and been doing pretty well.
As for the Subaru Management, I don't think its the shift of focus or whatever reason. They have the same mechanic, some group of people but just different upper management but its not the upper management that design the car.
- Charles
| WRXdonkey | 03-31-2006 01:59 PM |
I think upper management needs to get involved and use some executive powers to invoke change.
I'm thinking the Perellis need to go or get more competitive.
I don't think Loeb is any easier on equipment than Gronholm or Solberg. In fact, and I could be wrong here, I think that he's harder on the equipment, but he doesn't crash out or wreck as often. He also does a great job of avoiding the crap sitting in the road which leads to crash outs or unexpected damage. He's definitely a good driver... I think Gronholm is better, so long as he's not crashing.
I'm thinking the Perellis need to go or get more competitive.
I don't think Loeb is any easier on equipment than Gronholm or Solberg. In fact, and I could be wrong here, I think that he's harder on the equipment, but he doesn't crash out or wreck as often. He also does a great job of avoiding the crap sitting in the road which leads to crash outs or unexpected damage. He's definitely a good driver... I think Gronholm is better, so long as he's not crashing.
| RBelcher00 | 03-31-2006 02:13 PM |
Thank you for starting this thread. I was going to start one identical to this right now.
| RB5 Clone | 03-31-2006 03:27 PM |
get outa the back seat
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[QUOTE=burnera]catalunya was pretty bad, and i think that one was the drivers just not knowing how to race on tarmac.
kinda back seat driving, but it looked like they kept entering corners as if they were gravel, which means taking a horrible line.[/QUOTE]
Heh, you ARE back seat driving.
They "kept entering corners as if they were on gravel" because they WERE on gravel, scattered there by cars cutting corners ahead of them. The "horrible lines" you mention are due to the drivers looking for someplace on the pavement that's got less gravel and more grip. Gravely tarmac is a very tricky surface-- takes lots of practice, familiarity, and gonzo driving skill.
Not to mention cojones of steel.
It';s a whole lot better to slow down a bit than wreck the car needlessly because of trying to go too fast. Solberg and Atkinson have both been guilty of this in the past, but they're getting better. Remember, Atkinson took 4th overall at the all-tarmac Rally Ireland just before Catalunya..in a Group N car no less!
Somebody mentioned earlier that "top management ought to get involved and straighten things out." I'd submit that's a big part of the problem...the tweed suits (Scooby and Prodrive bean counters) should just let the blue suits (race team) do their thing.
There's still a lot of struggling between Japan and Prodrive.
Dave G
PS If you want to see real live rally on tarmac (sand learn more about what tarmac rally racers are up against), check out Rally NY next weekend. It's one of the very few pavement-only US events. rallynewyork.com
kinda back seat driving, but it looked like they kept entering corners as if they were gravel, which means taking a horrible line.[/QUOTE]
Heh, you ARE back seat driving.
They "kept entering corners as if they were on gravel" because they WERE on gravel, scattered there by cars cutting corners ahead of them. The "horrible lines" you mention are due to the drivers looking for someplace on the pavement that's got less gravel and more grip. Gravely tarmac is a very tricky surface-- takes lots of practice, familiarity, and gonzo driving skill.
Not to mention cojones of steel.
It';s a whole lot better to slow down a bit than wreck the car needlessly because of trying to go too fast. Solberg and Atkinson have both been guilty of this in the past, but they're getting better. Remember, Atkinson took 4th overall at the all-tarmac Rally Ireland just before Catalunya..in a Group N car no less!
Somebody mentioned earlier that "top management ought to get involved and straighten things out." I'd submit that's a big part of the problem...the tweed suits (Scooby and Prodrive bean counters) should just let the blue suits (race team) do their thing.
There's still a lot of struggling between Japan and Prodrive.
Dave G
PS If you want to see real live rally on tarmac (sand learn more about what tarmac rally racers are up against), check out Rally NY next weekend. It's one of the very few pavement-only US events. rallynewyork.com
| RB5 Clone | 03-31-2006 03:32 PM |
Pirelli + $$$$$$$$$$$$$
�
�
One thing to recognize before ppl slag Pirelli...
Pirelli is paying seriously large piles of cubic dollars to have the blue cars race on their rubber.
One of the hard realities of racing is that even Subaru couldn't afford to go play in the WRC circus without Pirelli support.
Dave G
Pirelli is paying seriously large piles of cubic dollars to have the blue cars race on their rubber.
One of the hard realities of racing is that even Subaru couldn't afford to go play in the WRC circus without Pirelli support.
Dave G
| runnah | 03-31-2006 07:29 PM |
A couple weekends back at the 12 hrs of Sebring the Aston Martin team was having problems with their Pirellis wearing out fast as well.
| WRXdonkey | 03-31-2006 09:25 PM |
without being too much of a smarta** here, what the hell are cubic dollars? I'll just assume that you mean a friggin' buttload ;-)
I'd have to also assume that Bridgestone or BFG or whoever else would pay similar dividends to see their brand listed on the cars, magazines, videos, video games, etc. over the course of their contractual obligations.
Money is never a good reason to stay in a crap situation... just look at all of the people who stay in terrible marriages because of financial reasons. I don't really think that's a concern for anyone with the SWRT.
I'd have to also assume that Bridgestone or BFG or whoever else would pay similar dividends to see their brand listed on the cars, magazines, videos, video games, etc. over the course of their contractual obligations.
Money is never a good reason to stay in a crap situation... just look at all of the people who stay in terrible marriages because of financial reasons. I don't really think that's a concern for anyone with the SWRT.
| RB5 Clone | 03-31-2006 09:53 PM |
for better or worse
�
�
[QUOTE=WRXdonkey]
Money is never a good reason to stay in a crap situation... just look at all of the people who stay in terrible marriages because of financial reasons. I don't really think that's a concern for anyone with the SWRT.[/QUOTE]
Well, money is why Subaru and Pirelli got married in the WRC. They're tied together contractually, and marriage metaphors aside, they're in a competitive business (and, OK, sporting) situation-- diff car companies and diff tire companies trying to kick each other's butts.
It's not like Subaru can just decide to dump Pirelli and go sob on the Michelin man's shoulder. At least not until the current contract runs out at the end of this season or whatever.
If you "don't really think money is a concern to SWRT", you have absolutely no idea about the astronomical costs involved with running a rally business at the WRC level. OF COURSE money is always a concern at SWRT. You have to realize that neither Subaru nor Pirelli can afford to race in the WRC by themselves. It's a team effort, for better or worse (sorry, another bad marriage metaphor) ;)
Dave G
Money is never a good reason to stay in a crap situation... just look at all of the people who stay in terrible marriages because of financial reasons. I don't really think that's a concern for anyone with the SWRT.[/QUOTE]
Well, money is why Subaru and Pirelli got married in the WRC. They're tied together contractually, and marriage metaphors aside, they're in a competitive business (and, OK, sporting) situation-- diff car companies and diff tire companies trying to kick each other's butts.
It's not like Subaru can just decide to dump Pirelli and go sob on the Michelin man's shoulder. At least not until the current contract runs out at the end of this season or whatever.
If you "don't really think money is a concern to SWRT", you have absolutely no idea about the astronomical costs involved with running a rally business at the WRC level. OF COURSE money is always a concern at SWRT. You have to realize that neither Subaru nor Pirelli can afford to race in the WRC by themselves. It's a team effort, for better or worse (sorry, another bad marriage metaphor) ;)
Dave G
| djviper | 03-31-2006 10:11 PM |
remember one main thing, its world championship racing and teams have good and bad seasons!
youll probably find subaru use pirelly for "sponsorship devolopment"reasons you have to remember tyres are under constant devolopement and the can change from round to round, a different disiplin i know but who remembers the us f1 GP?!
if at the end of the day the multi million dollar R=D department at srt thought they would gain an advantage by changing tyre manufactures they would, but wouldnt it be foolish to blow such a long shared partnership on one crappy start to a season?
youll probably find subaru use pirelly for "sponsorship devolopment"reasons you have to remember tyres are under constant devolopement and the can change from round to round, a different disiplin i know but who remembers the us f1 GP?!
if at the end of the day the multi million dollar R=D department at srt thought they would gain an advantage by changing tyre manufactures they would, but wouldnt it be foolish to blow such a long shared partnership on one crappy start to a season?
| SCRAPPYDO | 04-01-2006 09:03 AM |
just out of curiosity, where are you guys watching this!!!
Speed has sold out. So how do you see it!
SCRAPPYDO
Speed has sold out. So how do you see it!
SCRAPPYDO
| mrbobble | 04-01-2006 11:48 AM |
IMHO, Petter has been doing a pretty sweet job of keeping things neat and tidy as a driver. Sure, Sebastian is a better driver. Sure, Marcus has a more reliable car. But DAMN, lets give our boy Petter a big round of applause for all the times he almost just ruined everyones S#!T. He's got the skills on gravel and this has been proven consistently. Poor bastard just needs to ........wait a minute.......WTF happened to my rally coverage!? Iv'e been watching TiVo from two years ago? Someone help me! How do you watch rally now these days? SpeedTV is now LETS DRIVE LEFT AND GO FAST TV. Where are you all seeing this rally action?
HELP!
HELP!
| HeyChris | 04-01-2006 11:50 AM |
[QUOTE=SCRAPPYDO]just out of curiosity, where are you guys watching this!!!
Speed has sold out. So how do you see it!
SCRAPPYDO[/QUOTE]
We have our super secret sources.... :devil: But its kinda like Fight Club! Where you can't break Rule #1
D'oh... did I just do that? ;)
Chris.
[COLOR=Silver]Let the interweb be your friend.....[/COLOR]
Speed has sold out. So how do you see it!
SCRAPPYDO[/QUOTE]
We have our super secret sources.... :devil: But its kinda like Fight Club! Where you can't break Rule #1
D'oh... did I just do that? ;)
Chris.
[COLOR=Silver]Let the interweb be your friend.....[/COLOR]
| theicewall | 04-01-2006 11:59 AM |
I can't reveal my sources but browse around for Eurosport broadcastings and see if you find anything. They are the actual source for rally coverage at the moment.
| WRXdonkey | 04-01-2006 01:37 PM |
pm me if you need links to current rally footage.
RB5, I understand that the money is necessary, but it's not a major factor when there are other tire mfgrs willing to sever arms and legs to be subaru's bed partner.
Either way, if they loose all season, I'll still wear blue and yellow and cheer for them. It's just that no one will hear my cries of anguish/glory in New Orleans, lol...
Regardless, good stuff here... great discussions. I'm just keeping my fingers crossed for Corsica.
RB5, I understand that the money is necessary, but it's not a major factor when there are other tire mfgrs willing to sever arms and legs to be subaru's bed partner.
Either way, if they loose all season, I'll still wear blue and yellow and cheer for them. It's just that no one will hear my cries of anguish/glory in New Orleans, lol...
Regardless, good stuff here... great discussions. I'm just keeping my fingers crossed for Corsica.
| RB5 Clone | 04-01-2006 06:40 PM |
[QUOTE=SCRAPPYDO]just out of curiosity, where are you guys watching this!!!
Speed has sold out. So how do you see it!
SCRAPPYDO[/QUOTE]
By flying to down to watch Corona Rally Mexico from inside the service park (with a team pass) and out on the stages. Seeing the Prodrive crew attack Atkinson's wrecked car (rolled, ripped most of the back off, in fact it looked kinda like an El Camino when it limped back to service), and then sending it back out gleaming and 100% mechanically ready to rumble, was truly amazing.
Watching those WRC pilotes keep the hammer down...well, you have NO IDEA until you're out there sucking their dust as the cars blast by you at 110 mph, 5 feet away from where you are cringing in the ditch under a barbed-wire fence on some Mexican rancher's land WAYup in the mountains. They aren't just crazy...they're bloody good drivers in the best cars money can buy.
also rally-live.com
rally-action.com
it's out there. seek and ye shall find.
Dave G
PS--WRXdonkey, the tire thing is huge beyond belief, and seeing the scene in person at Rally Mexico made it very clear.. There is NO other tire mfr who can step up to the plate and deliver what these guys need. Part of SWRT's problems are their own, and unfortunately Pirelli is taking heat for lots of that. NO other tire mfr in the rally scene -- Yokohama Falken Kumho Silverstone etc -- can hack it at the WRC level. for better or worse, Subaru and Pirelli are commmercially and realistically married for the foreseeable future.
Speed has sold out. So how do you see it!
SCRAPPYDO[/QUOTE]
By flying to down to watch Corona Rally Mexico from inside the service park (with a team pass) and out on the stages. Seeing the Prodrive crew attack Atkinson's wrecked car (rolled, ripped most of the back off, in fact it looked kinda like an El Camino when it limped back to service), and then sending it back out gleaming and 100% mechanically ready to rumble, was truly amazing.
Watching those WRC pilotes keep the hammer down...well, you have NO IDEA until you're out there sucking their dust as the cars blast by you at 110 mph, 5 feet away from where you are cringing in the ditch under a barbed-wire fence on some Mexican rancher's land WAYup in the mountains. They aren't just crazy...they're bloody good drivers in the best cars money can buy.
also rally-live.com
rally-action.com
it's out there. seek and ye shall find.
Dave G
PS--WRXdonkey, the tire thing is huge beyond belief, and seeing the scene in person at Rally Mexico made it very clear.. There is NO other tire mfr who can step up to the plate and deliver what these guys need. Part of SWRT's problems are their own, and unfortunately Pirelli is taking heat for lots of that. NO other tire mfr in the rally scene -- Yokohama Falken Kumho Silverstone etc -- can hack it at the WRC level. for better or worse, Subaru and Pirelli are commmercially and realistically married for the foreseeable future.
| Slick33 | 04-01-2006 06:53 PM |
[QUOTE=SCRAPPYDO]just out of curiosity, where are you guys watching this!!!
Speed has sold out. So how do you see it!
SCRAPPYDO[/QUOTE]
Do a search on the rally threads (Monte Carlo/Sweden/Mexico) created for this year's events...you'll find some useful links in them.
Speed has sold out. So how do you see it!
SCRAPPYDO[/QUOTE]
Do a search on the rally threads (Monte Carlo/Sweden/Mexico) created for this year's events...you'll find some useful links in them.
| WRXdonkey | 04-01-2006 07:34 PM |
[QUOTE=RB5 Clone]By flying to down to watch Corona Rally Mexico from inside the service park (with a team pass) and out on the stages. Seeing the Prodrive crew attack Atkinson's wrecked car (rolled, ripped most of the back off, in fact it looked kinda like an El Camino when it limped back to service), and then sending it back out gleaming and 100% mechanically ready to rumble, was truly amazing.
Watching those WRC pilotes keep the hammer down...well, you have NO IDEA until you're out there sucking their dust as the cars blast by you at 110 mph, 5 feet away from where you are cringing in the ditch under a barbed-wire fence on some Mexican rancher's land WAYup in the mountains. They aren't just crazy...they're bloody good drivers in the best cars money can buy.
also rally-live.com
rally-action.com
it's out there. seek and ye shall find.
Dave G
PS--WRXdonkey, the tire thing is huge beyond belief, and seeing the scene in person at Rally Mexico made it very clear.. There is NO other tire mfr who can step up to the plate and deliver what these guys need. Part of SWRT's problems are their own, and unfortunately Pirelli is taking heat for lots of that. NO other tire mfr in the rally scene -- Yokohama Falken Kumho Silverstone etc -- can hack it at the WRC level. for better or worse, Subaru and Pirelli are commmercially and realistically married for the foreseeable future.[/QUOTE]
Maan, you've been out there? I want your diary/log that you undoubtedly kept to share the experience with the world!
Inevitably... once I retire as a millionaire ^_^... I'll spend my years traveling around following an entire season of WRC, place to place, etc. It's a dream of mine, like the Great American One Lap.
Watching those WRC pilotes keep the hammer down...well, you have NO IDEA until you're out there sucking their dust as the cars blast by you at 110 mph, 5 feet away from where you are cringing in the ditch under a barbed-wire fence on some Mexican rancher's land WAYup in the mountains. They aren't just crazy...they're bloody good drivers in the best cars money can buy.
also rally-live.com
rally-action.com
it's out there. seek and ye shall find.
Dave G
PS--WRXdonkey, the tire thing is huge beyond belief, and seeing the scene in person at Rally Mexico made it very clear.. There is NO other tire mfr who can step up to the plate and deliver what these guys need. Part of SWRT's problems are their own, and unfortunately Pirelli is taking heat for lots of that. NO other tire mfr in the rally scene -- Yokohama Falken Kumho Silverstone etc -- can hack it at the WRC level. for better or worse, Subaru and Pirelli are commmercially and realistically married for the foreseeable future.[/QUOTE]
Maan, you've been out there? I want your diary/log that you undoubtedly kept to share the experience with the world!
Inevitably... once I retire as a millionaire ^_^... I'll spend my years traveling around following an entire season of WRC, place to place, etc. It's a dream of mine, like the Great American One Lap.
| RB5 Clone | 04-02-2006 10:10 AM |
shot LOTS of video
will be working up a little movie, and post on our team website
[url]www.lastditchracing.net[/url]
will be a while, lots of projects going on at the moment
getting ready for Rally NY and Rocky Mtn Rally next month.
will post PR when time comes.
Cheers
Dave g
will be working up a little movie, and post on our team website
[url]www.lastditchracing.net[/url]
will be a while, lots of projects going on at the moment
getting ready for Rally NY and Rocky Mtn Rally next month.
will post PR when time comes.
Cheers
Dave g
| WRXdonkey | 04-02-2006 04:17 PM |
Nice, post the link on here when it's ready. I love hot, dusty, amatuer footage!
| datageek | 04-02-2006 05:01 PM |
[QUOTE=Chromer]One other thing on the tires: They have to nominate their tires about a month in advance, which means making an educated guess on what the air and pavement temperatures are going to be. [/QUOTE]
This is a good point. For European rounds I believe the tire nominations have to be in by two weeks before the event. For long haul events they have to be done five or six weeks in advance. The first three rounds have all run at the same time as they were last year (though the weather always makes tire selection on Monte and Sweden a crap shoot to begin with), but all the rounds in the Med have moved to a different place on the calendar, as has New Zealand.
Many drivers (including Sebastien Loeb, who has so far been very lucky with his tire selections) have complained that it's not very nice that they could lose the event before they even set foot in the host country because the tire nominations have to be done so far in advance.
This is a good point. For European rounds I believe the tire nominations have to be in by two weeks before the event. For long haul events they have to be done five or six weeks in advance. The first three rounds have all run at the same time as they were last year (though the weather always makes tire selection on Monte and Sweden a crap shoot to begin with), but all the rounds in the Med have moved to a different place on the calendar, as has New Zealand.
Many drivers (including Sebastien Loeb, who has so far been very lucky with his tire selections) have complained that it's not very nice that they could lose the event before they even set foot in the host country because the tire nominations have to be done so far in advance.
| WJM | 04-02-2006 05:08 PM |
They should just bring the GC8 back. That'll solve most problems.
The solution to EVERYTHING is to bring back the Leone RX/II with Possum Borne behind the wheel.
*We miss you Possum Borne*
The solution to EVERYTHING is to bring back the Leone RX/II with Possum Borne behind the wheel.
*We miss you Possum Borne*
| theicewall | 04-02-2006 05:08 PM |
What is the actual rules with tires? How many compounds are you allowed to bring with you or nominate, and has this always been a rule? I thought I once remember seeing a photo of the subaru tire truck that had something like 40 tires of certainly more than one compound?
| WJM | 04-02-2006 05:16 PM |
the rules are very different these days...I rememeber back in the 90's and up to about 2001 or 2002 you could bring any amount of tires/compounds/types with you as long as it was from your 'said sponsored tire maker' or something like that.
| STiMULi | 04-02-2006 05:24 PM |
[QUOTE=HeyChris]We have our super secret sources.... :devil: But its kinda like Fight Club! Where you can't break Rule #1[/QUOTE]
[SIZE=1][COLOR=Silver]Be careful or you will be swimming with the fishes :cool: [/COLOR][/SIZE]
[SIZE=1][COLOR=Silver]Be careful or you will be swimming with the fishes :cool: [/COLOR][/SIZE]
| datageek | 04-02-2006 11:26 PM |
[QUOTE=theicewall]What are the actual rules with tires? How many compounds are you allowed to bring with you or nominate, and has this always been a rule? [/QUOTE]
The actual rules are pretty lengthy, and can be found [URL=http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/568522310__WRC_reg_a.pdf]here[/URL]. The relevent parts are section 3.10 and Appendix V.
The Reader's Digest version is: The number of tread patterns varies from rally to rally. Monte Carlo allows three; Mexico allows only one. Exactly when the tires need to be nominated depends on the event. For example, tires for Corsica need to be nominated by 17:00 CET tomorrow (4/3). Tires for Mexico, however, had to be nominated by 1/21. There is a provision allowing for the exchange of up to 12 tires no later than the Friday before the rally. So changing weather conditions do not completely screw everyone over on long haul events.
How many tires are allowed depends on the number of "tire changing opportunities". Basically a tire changing opportunity is something like service, shakedown, or a designated remote tire zone (aka, service light). The number of tires that can be used versus the number of tires that can be nominated varies from rally to rally, but in generally works out to be about 20 more tires than may be used.
And to answer your last question, no, these have not always been the rules. The rules on how many of what type of tire the manufacturers can bring has been undergoing a lot of changes recently. This year the changes weren't that significant, but last year the changes were fairly marked. I suspect this might have had some impact on why there were so many bad tire choices -- though I don't think that's the only reason.
The actual rules are pretty lengthy, and can be found [URL=http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/568522310__WRC_reg_a.pdf]here[/URL]. The relevent parts are section 3.10 and Appendix V.
The Reader's Digest version is: The number of tread patterns varies from rally to rally. Monte Carlo allows three; Mexico allows only one. Exactly when the tires need to be nominated depends on the event. For example, tires for Corsica need to be nominated by 17:00 CET tomorrow (4/3). Tires for Mexico, however, had to be nominated by 1/21. There is a provision allowing for the exchange of up to 12 tires no later than the Friday before the rally. So changing weather conditions do not completely screw everyone over on long haul events.
How many tires are allowed depends on the number of "tire changing opportunities". Basically a tire changing opportunity is something like service, shakedown, or a designated remote tire zone (aka, service light). The number of tires that can be used versus the number of tires that can be nominated varies from rally to rally, but in generally works out to be about 20 more tires than may be used.
And to answer your last question, no, these have not always been the rules. The rules on how many of what type of tire the manufacturers can bring has been undergoing a lot of changes recently. This year the changes weren't that significant, but last year the changes were fairly marked. I suspect this might have had some impact on why there were so many bad tire choices -- though I don't think that's the only reason.
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