| Zahnster | 05-02-2002 03:16 PM |
Time for the A1-Ring....
1. MS
2. MS
3. MS
4. MS
5. MS
6. MS
2. MS
3. MS
4. MS
5. MS
6. MS
| Fred Zaplitny | 05-02-2002 05:06 PM |
Yawn. It's too early for this thread.
See you next week.
See you next week.
| grandpa rex | 05-02-2002 05:38 PM |
Hey Fre, I think that the Zahnster has it right:
1. Red car
2. Red car
3. Red car
4. Red car
5. Red car
6. Red car
1. Red car
2. Red car
3. Red car
4. Red car
5. Red car
6. Red car
| Zahnster | 05-05-2002 10:51 PM |
Still too early?
| Arioch | 05-06-2002 12:46 AM |
yeah...
| STi_Pete | 05-06-2002 02:29 AM |
IF thats too early guess where I'll be in JUNE
Grand Prix Du Air Canada
Montreal
YEah Baby
Oh and yes
1. MS
Grand Prix Du Air Canada
Montreal
YEah Baby
Oh and yes
1. MS
| grandpa rex | 05-06-2002 08:41 AM |
Hey Pete, where do you sit in Montreal? I'm always at the hairpin
| ellisnc | 05-06-2002 07:24 PM |
if you were to bet on him winning the championship right now what are the odds?? like 1.1/1 or something :lol:
don't get me wrong, I'm a Ferrari fan and I like seeing them win, but I just wish it was more dramatic sometimes:rolleyes:
don't get me wrong, I'm a Ferrari fan and I like seeing them win, but I just wish it was more dramatic sometimes:rolleyes:
| Fred Zaplitny | 05-06-2002 07:25 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Zahnster [/i]
[B]Still too early? [/B][/QUOTE]
Nope, now is the time!
1. MS
2. JPM
3. DC
4. KR
5. JF
6. Mika Salo
[B]Still too early? [/B][/QUOTE]
Nope, now is the time!
1. MS
2. JPM
3. DC
4. KR
5. JF
6. Mika Salo
| OnTheGas | 05-10-2002 01:35 AM |
There is no way this will be right, as A1-Ring often sees some unusual leaders and races.[list=1][*]Michael[*]Rubens[*]Juan[*]Ralfie[*]David[*]Kimi[/list=1]
| tonytiger | 05-10-2002 05:02 PM |
Kimi will beat DC if the car lasts.
| Fred Zaplitny | 05-10-2002 10:48 PM |
Is it me or are these threads no longer as much fun? What happened? Where's all the humor, the insights, the babes?
| ChrisW | 05-10-2002 10:50 PM |
speaking of insights, what the hell happened to Villenue? 21st place? come on... I like the guy, but at some point you have to wonder.
[edit]
Even alex yoong was faster! A Minardi!!! go figure:rolleyes:
[edit]
Even alex yoong was faster! A Minardi!!! go figure:rolleyes:
| donjuan | 05-11-2002 09:47 AM |
no no no...
I could be wrong but I believe that Austria is the one GP on the current schedule that Michael has never won. The streak will continue as he retires early with flux capacitor and continuum transfunctioner failure.
1. Ralf Schumacher
2. Rubens Barrichello
3. Kimi Raikkonen
4. Nick Heidfeld
5. Jenson Button
6. Felipe Massa
Fred, as for babes, I think this brunette may dethrone the Orange Arrows girl you like so much. Jordan always comes through for pitbabes don't they?
[IMG]http://a324.g.akamai.net/f/324/3126/1d/www.f1-live.com/photos/2002/a1ring/diapo_411.jpg[/IMG]
1. Ralf Schumacher
2. Rubens Barrichello
3. Kimi Raikkonen
4. Nick Heidfeld
5. Jenson Button
6. Felipe Massa
Fred, as for babes, I think this brunette may dethrone the Orange Arrows girl you like so much. Jordan always comes through for pitbabes don't they?
[IMG]http://a324.g.akamai.net/f/324/3126/1d/www.f1-live.com/photos/2002/a1ring/diapo_411.jpg[/IMG]
| tailout | 05-11-2002 05:08 PM |
Micheal has never one at the A-1 Ring...
1. MS
2.RS
3.NH
4.KR
5.JB
6.MASSA
1. MS
2.RS
3.NH
4.KR
5.JB
6.MASSA
| donjuan | 05-12-2002 09:48 AM |
BAH!
Ferrari sucks d.ick. That finish was the biggest pile of horses.hit i've seen in a long time. :mad:
| TampaWRX | 05-12-2002 09:50 AM |
The finish to this race was one of the most disgusting things I have ever seen. I sincerely hope that Rubens NEVER has a chance at another win. Michael Schumacher and all of Ferrari should truly be ashamed...they have finally hit rock bottom.
What would Ayrton Senna have to say to Rubens if he were still alive?
:monkey: for you Rubens :monkey: :monkey: and two more for your team.
What would Ayrton Senna have to say to Rubens if he were still alive?
:monkey: for you Rubens :monkey: :monkey: and two more for your team.
| grandpa rex | 05-12-2002 09:53 AM |
I have been a Ferrari fan for a long time, but today's display was too much for me. Someone on the team had a massive brain f*rt on this one. I am disgusted. Rubhino won this one fair and square. He was faster all weekend. I predict a massive PR headache for Ferrari over this. Shame on you Ferrari!
| Ferg | 05-12-2002 09:58 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by TampaWRX [/i]
[B]What would Ayrton Senna have to say to Rubens if he were still alive?
[/B][/QUOTE]
Nothing, because Ruben's would have been letting Schu by for second or third!
:mad: Ferrari.......:monkey:
Ferg
[B]What would Ayrton Senna have to say to Rubens if he were still alive?
[/B][/QUOTE]
Nothing, because Ruben's would have been letting Schu by for second or third!
:mad: Ferrari.......:monkey:
Ferg
| johnfelstead | 05-12-2002 10:51 AM |
well said Ferg.
Boy oh Boy oh Boy has F1 gone down the ****ter since Ayrton left us. :(
Thats the last Live race i am going to watch this year.
Disgusted. :mad:
Boy oh Boy oh Boy has F1 gone down the ****ter since Ayrton left us. :(
Thats the last Live race i am going to watch this year.
Disgusted. :mad:
| Rick Hunter | 05-12-2002 11:35 AM |
Yep, majorly pissed off here too.
They should write a book: How to ruin a sport, by Ferrari.
They should write a book: How to ruin a sport, by Ferrari.
| gtguy | 05-12-2002 01:20 PM |
As I said in another thread, it's a terrible decision, but let's not forget that sometimes, teams have to do onerous stuff to make sure that they get the results that they want. Just as it helped Hakkinen when Coulthard moved over for him under McLaren team orders, this might potentially help Michael (though with the pace of the F2002, I doubt it).
I'm on the fence with this one. It sucks, and is one of the crappiest things I have seen in F1 in a while...well, since Coulthard let Hakkien past. But I don't really know what those guys must have to go through to make decisions like that. It must be so terribly hard.
Hey johnfelstead, was there this much ruckus when McLaren did it? I honestly forget. On the other hand, I don't think that Coulthard outdrove Hakkinen as convincingly as Rubens did Michael. It was a joyless win, a joyless podium and a joyless press conference. Follow this link for the entire press conference transcript:
[url]http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines02/05/s9454.html[/url]
And in two weeks, we get a tape-delayed Monaco on ABC in the 'States. I'll wait and see who the commentators are...
Kevin
I'm on the fence with this one. It sucks, and is one of the crappiest things I have seen in F1 in a while...well, since Coulthard let Hakkien past. But I don't really know what those guys must have to go through to make decisions like that. It must be so terribly hard.
Hey johnfelstead, was there this much ruckus when McLaren did it? I honestly forget. On the other hand, I don't think that Coulthard outdrove Hakkinen as convincingly as Rubens did Michael. It was a joyless win, a joyless podium and a joyless press conference. Follow this link for the entire press conference transcript:
[url]http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines02/05/s9454.html[/url]
And in two weeks, we get a tape-delayed Monaco on ABC in the 'States. I'll wait and see who the commentators are...
Kevin
| TampaWRX | 05-12-2002 03:09 PM |
I don't empathize at all with Rubens Barrichello. The man gave away a win. Hard decision, easy decision, you don't ever give away a win. Let's just hope he never gets another shot...no one who would treat a victory for flippantly deserves to take the number one spot on the podium.
| Ferg | 05-12-2002 04:17 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by gtguy [/i]
[B]Just as it helped Hakkinen when Coulthard moved over for him under McLaren team orders, this might potentially help Michael (though with the pace of the F2002, I doubt it).
Hey johnfelstead, was there this much ruckus when McLaren did it? I honestly forget. On the other hand, I don't think that Coulthard outdrove Hakkinen as convincingly as Rubens did Michael. [/B][/QUOTE]
The circumstances were a bit different for the 1998 Australian Grand Prix. Mika had dominated qualifying and the race, and lost the lead only when there was a mix-up in pit signals, causing him to drop behind DC. It must also be said that according to David, there were no team orders. It was an agreement that he and Mika had had that whoever led into the first corner (Mika) would win the race if they were running 1-2. David was just sticking to that agreement.
Now, this still sucked because it gave the illusion of racing when there was none.
What I want to know is WHEN Ruben's was told to let him by. Was the whole "race" a sham? Was Michael always going to be let through? Unfortunately it looks that way.:mad:
Ferg
[B]Just as it helped Hakkinen when Coulthard moved over for him under McLaren team orders, this might potentially help Michael (though with the pace of the F2002, I doubt it).
Hey johnfelstead, was there this much ruckus when McLaren did it? I honestly forget. On the other hand, I don't think that Coulthard outdrove Hakkinen as convincingly as Rubens did Michael. [/B][/QUOTE]
The circumstances were a bit different for the 1998 Australian Grand Prix. Mika had dominated qualifying and the race, and lost the lead only when there was a mix-up in pit signals, causing him to drop behind DC. It must also be said that according to David, there were no team orders. It was an agreement that he and Mika had had that whoever led into the first corner (Mika) would win the race if they were running 1-2. David was just sticking to that agreement.
Now, this still sucked because it gave the illusion of racing when there was none.
What I want to know is WHEN Ruben's was told to let him by. Was the whole "race" a sham? Was Michael always going to be let through? Unfortunately it looks that way.:mad:
Ferg
| TampaWRX | 05-12-2002 04:26 PM |
I just can't stop myself. :mad:
This from Patrick Head on Planet-F1:
Williams' technical director Patrick Head was blazingly angry after the finish of the Austrian Grand Prix and condemned Ferrari's actions in asking Rubens Barrichello to move over to allow Michael Schumacher to win.
F1 team bosses are normally quite careful about what they say, but Head was in doubt as to what he'd just seen.
"I think it's the most cynical event I've seen in my 27 years of Formula 1," said Patrick, "I think for a team like Ferrari, when you've produced a car as brilliant as they have done, you have an obligation to Formula 1 and an obligation to the spectators and that's to provide a motor race."
Head was quick to point out that during his own team's dominance of the sport, there were always two drivers who could win, "When we've produced a car that was ahead of the others we've provided some motor racing. [b]What we saw here was a disgusting, cynical act.[/b]" - my emphasis
This from Patrick Head on Planet-F1:
Williams' technical director Patrick Head was blazingly angry after the finish of the Austrian Grand Prix and condemned Ferrari's actions in asking Rubens Barrichello to move over to allow Michael Schumacher to win.
F1 team bosses are normally quite careful about what they say, but Head was in doubt as to what he'd just seen.
"I think it's the most cynical event I've seen in my 27 years of Formula 1," said Patrick, "I think for a team like Ferrari, when you've produced a car as brilliant as they have done, you have an obligation to Formula 1 and an obligation to the spectators and that's to provide a motor race."
Head was quick to point out that during his own team's dominance of the sport, there were always two drivers who could win, "When we've produced a car that was ahead of the others we've provided some motor racing. [b]What we saw here was a disgusting, cynical act.[/b]" - my emphasis
| ChrisW | 05-12-2002 04:44 PM |
As a Ferrari fan I demand an apology! When a driver has dominated a race such as Rubens did today, the team has no right to ask him to pull over.
I totally agree with Partick Head.
:monkey: to you Ferrari. What a disgusting way to win.:mad:
I totally agree with Partick Head.
:monkey: to you Ferrari. What a disgusting way to win.:mad:
| johnfelstead | 05-12-2002 05:21 PM |
Ferg is spot on re the McLaren issue. The drivers had a deal, and David stuck to that deal.
The FIA actually brought in new rules after that event, banning team orders, that included Rallying too as they judged it brought the sport into disrepute. They actually dropped that rule afterwards as it was imposible to police.
I believe Ferrari should be strung up before the FIA and have all their points taken away for this, because it was an in your face, up your arse to everyone display that HAS brought the sport into disrepute. They did it in the most cynical way. F1 simply doesnt need this right now as it's going through tough times financially.
Patric is absolutely right. That decision was outrageous.
Ross brawn said to the TV crew we get here in the UK that Rubens cant say he would have won anyway. He actually said "that wasnt a motor race, we controlled the drivers throughout" So the answer is rubens did know he was going to lose, or at least he expected the call. I think he got that call 2 laps from home because he dropped his pace by one second a lap with 2 laps to go and was cruising.
The FIA should act in the interests of the sport, this will hurt more than people realise right now. Patric head understands this!
I think all the teams should get together and make a fuss about this because the lower teams are the ones who are going to sufer finacialy as a result, no question about it!
The FIA actually brought in new rules after that event, banning team orders, that included Rallying too as they judged it brought the sport into disrepute. They actually dropped that rule afterwards as it was imposible to police.
I believe Ferrari should be strung up before the FIA and have all their points taken away for this, because it was an in your face, up your arse to everyone display that HAS brought the sport into disrepute. They did it in the most cynical way. F1 simply doesnt need this right now as it's going through tough times financially.
Patric is absolutely right. That decision was outrageous.
Ross brawn said to the TV crew we get here in the UK that Rubens cant say he would have won anyway. He actually said "that wasnt a motor race, we controlled the drivers throughout" So the answer is rubens did know he was going to lose, or at least he expected the call. I think he got that call 2 laps from home because he dropped his pace by one second a lap with 2 laps to go and was cruising.
The FIA should act in the interests of the sport, this will hurt more than people realise right now. Patric head understands this!
I think all the teams should get together and make a fuss about this because the lower teams are the ones who are going to sufer finacialy as a result, no question about it!
| johnfelstead | 05-12-2002 05:38 PM |
this is what our F1 comentator (who i dont particularly like) said today, i agree 100%
On ITV I called Ferraris' decision to deny Barrichello victory today outrageous and I stand by it. This was a cynical and quite unnecessary decision and it can only harm the image of F1, Ferrari and Michael Schumacher, although I do not believe he wanted this to happen today.
Let me explain how this is different from other team orders we have seen in recent years and why it is so much more damaging to F1.
In the 1998 Oz Grand Prix we saw DC move over for Hakkinen, but that was the first race of the season and Hakkinen had been the innocent victim of a team pit blunder. People who gambled on the race cried foul, but DC was the clear number two and he knew his place.
In 1999 at Hockenheim Mika Salo (deputising for an injured Schuey at Ferrari) handed the win to Eddie Irvine because Irvine was in a tight title fight with Mika Hakkinen. It was tough on Salo, but quite understandable
Last year in Austria, Rubens moved over for Schuey and again it was understandable. Coulthard had won the race and he was close to Schumacher at the time in the championship. Again I find this justifiable.
But today's move was a disastrous misjudgement. Michael was already 21 points clear of Montoya in the title race and the Ferrari is a long way ahead of Williams in development terms. There is no similarity to the circumstances of previous switches. Short of another injury to Schumacher, like 1999, it is hard to see the circumstances under which he could drop enough points to Montoya enough to lose the title. Anyone who knows anything about F1 can see that Ferrari is the dominant package and that Schumacher is the best driver. It is highly unlikely that Williams will find a performance gain of a second a lap, which is what they need, in the next few months in order to pass Ferrari.
Rubens was the fastest man all weekend, he dominated the race and it seems insane that the only man who could beat him was his own team boss Jean Todt. And what is to say that this will not happen next race or the race after that? Schuey admitted that Rubens was faster than him this weekend, but Rubens was close to beating him in San Marino and Spain. Will Ferrari keep asking him to move over?
But by doing this Ferrari has made this year's title a hollow victory. Whatever happens from now on, it will be remembered for this, not for the fabulous drives Schuey put in in Spain and Australia.
At a time what F1 is shoring up against an economic crisis and making sure it remains a hugely watchable sport passionately followed by millions around the world, it has shot itself in both feet and sporting values have gone right out of the window. If Ferrari had allowed Rubens to win the press would have been hugely favourable, Schuey would still have extended his lead over Montoya in the points table and would still be on course to wrap up the title by Hungary or Spa.
I better stop there before I say something I regret. I'm really angry.
On ITV I called Ferraris' decision to deny Barrichello victory today outrageous and I stand by it. This was a cynical and quite unnecessary decision and it can only harm the image of F1, Ferrari and Michael Schumacher, although I do not believe he wanted this to happen today.
Let me explain how this is different from other team orders we have seen in recent years and why it is so much more damaging to F1.
In the 1998 Oz Grand Prix we saw DC move over for Hakkinen, but that was the first race of the season and Hakkinen had been the innocent victim of a team pit blunder. People who gambled on the race cried foul, but DC was the clear number two and he knew his place.
In 1999 at Hockenheim Mika Salo (deputising for an injured Schuey at Ferrari) handed the win to Eddie Irvine because Irvine was in a tight title fight with Mika Hakkinen. It was tough on Salo, but quite understandable
Last year in Austria, Rubens moved over for Schuey and again it was understandable. Coulthard had won the race and he was close to Schumacher at the time in the championship. Again I find this justifiable.
But today's move was a disastrous misjudgement. Michael was already 21 points clear of Montoya in the title race and the Ferrari is a long way ahead of Williams in development terms. There is no similarity to the circumstances of previous switches. Short of another injury to Schumacher, like 1999, it is hard to see the circumstances under which he could drop enough points to Montoya enough to lose the title. Anyone who knows anything about F1 can see that Ferrari is the dominant package and that Schumacher is the best driver. It is highly unlikely that Williams will find a performance gain of a second a lap, which is what they need, in the next few months in order to pass Ferrari.
Rubens was the fastest man all weekend, he dominated the race and it seems insane that the only man who could beat him was his own team boss Jean Todt. And what is to say that this will not happen next race or the race after that? Schuey admitted that Rubens was faster than him this weekend, but Rubens was close to beating him in San Marino and Spain. Will Ferrari keep asking him to move over?
But by doing this Ferrari has made this year's title a hollow victory. Whatever happens from now on, it will be remembered for this, not for the fabulous drives Schuey put in in Spain and Australia.
At a time what F1 is shoring up against an economic crisis and making sure it remains a hugely watchable sport passionately followed by millions around the world, it has shot itself in both feet and sporting values have gone right out of the window. If Ferrari had allowed Rubens to win the press would have been hugely favourable, Schuey would still have extended his lead over Montoya in the points table and would still be on course to wrap up the title by Hungary or Spa.
I better stop there before I say something I regret. I'm really angry.
| WRSport | 05-12-2002 05:48 PM |
AMEN.
| Ferg | 05-12-2002 07:22 PM |
You've summed it up very nicely John. It's just a disgrace. It's not motor racing. It ruined what was otherwise a good race with plenty of ballsy drives (Villneuve deserved a points finish). It calls into question everything about this season from now on. At least Schumacher had the common sense to look embarresed about the whole thing.......but no more for me.
That's it.....I'm done for the season. :mad: :mad: :mad:
Someone start televising F3000 races in the States..please.
Ferg
That's it.....I'm done for the season. :mad: :mad: :mad:
Someone start televising F3000 races in the States..please.
Ferg
| gtguy | 05-12-2002 08:01 PM |
Thanks for the clarification on the McLaren thing Ferg. I had forgotten, but now that you talk about it, it all comes back.
I've been nosing about the web to look for more comments, etc., and the derision is almost universal. Peter Windsor is about the only pundit/commentator who is defending the move.
A few things are interesting here:
Schumacher destroyed any chances that he had of not being the "most despised" driver in F1. He could have simply applied the brakes. He wouldn't have been fired, or chastised, or anything else, I daresay. Montoya was far enough back where there needn't have been a concern about such things.
It sort of puts the whole Barrichello being serviced first under the first safety car thing in perspective, doesn't it? We thought that he was being treated as the best driver that weekend, and getting pride of place. But it seems that no matter what happened, Schumacher, if he was even close, was going to be awarded the win.
Schumacher's comments are also interesting, in that he is (disingenuously, I believe) claiming to be as much of a pawn as Rubens. His discomfort and displeasure were clear. But is he really, at the end of the day, just an employee? I think not.
Ferrari, with Ross Brawn's comments about team control, have raised some interesting questions about "racing." I think we've always known that Ferrari, more than any other team, has a clear number one driver. I admit that some of my discomfort has to do with having it rubbed in my face so blatantly.
Unfortunately, Ferrari is a team that inspires a lot of emotion, which makes the manipulated result more difficult for many. The tifosi love the Scuderia, so they're appalled. Most people seem to dislike M. Schumacher, so they're particularly outraged. And everyone hates a front runner, so I think that there is some piling on in this situation. There were a few interesting comments to the effect of "Ferrari did the right thing, when you consider that F1 isn't an individual sport, it's a team sport," etc. But I do feel that teams have to think of the fans in situations like this one. All of the great racing (Villeneuve!), the action, the tragedy averted (thankfully Sato is alright) have all been forgotten. All that remains is outrage.
I'm ultimately still not sure how I feel about it. I still love F1, and thought that Schumacher's gestures to Barrichello after the race were nice, but were just gestures. The chance that he had to make a real gesture, putting on the brakes, was lost. I don't think that the sport has been ruined for me, but I'm a journalist, so I'm probably a bit more cynical than the average bear. From the perspective of Ferrari, I understand the move.
But from the perspective of a guy sitting on the sofa with his wife on Sunday morning feeling hollow, it's a bit tough to stomach.
I think we do know one thing: Ferrari, or any other team, will never do this again. The sport is in trouble financially, but it was before Sunday's display. It's just too expensive. I think that the fans will get over it, but it will take some time. The question is, what will the FIA do, if anything? Apparently, an FIA representative said that there are no specific rules in place that govern that sort of behavior, but in the face of such a monstrous black eye for the sport, surely they must do something?
Kevin
I've been nosing about the web to look for more comments, etc., and the derision is almost universal. Peter Windsor is about the only pundit/commentator who is defending the move.
A few things are interesting here:
Schumacher destroyed any chances that he had of not being the "most despised" driver in F1. He could have simply applied the brakes. He wouldn't have been fired, or chastised, or anything else, I daresay. Montoya was far enough back where there needn't have been a concern about such things.
It sort of puts the whole Barrichello being serviced first under the first safety car thing in perspective, doesn't it? We thought that he was being treated as the best driver that weekend, and getting pride of place. But it seems that no matter what happened, Schumacher, if he was even close, was going to be awarded the win.
Schumacher's comments are also interesting, in that he is (disingenuously, I believe) claiming to be as much of a pawn as Rubens. His discomfort and displeasure were clear. But is he really, at the end of the day, just an employee? I think not.
Ferrari, with Ross Brawn's comments about team control, have raised some interesting questions about "racing." I think we've always known that Ferrari, more than any other team, has a clear number one driver. I admit that some of my discomfort has to do with having it rubbed in my face so blatantly.
Unfortunately, Ferrari is a team that inspires a lot of emotion, which makes the manipulated result more difficult for many. The tifosi love the Scuderia, so they're appalled. Most people seem to dislike M. Schumacher, so they're particularly outraged. And everyone hates a front runner, so I think that there is some piling on in this situation. There were a few interesting comments to the effect of "Ferrari did the right thing, when you consider that F1 isn't an individual sport, it's a team sport," etc. But I do feel that teams have to think of the fans in situations like this one. All of the great racing (Villeneuve!), the action, the tragedy averted (thankfully Sato is alright) have all been forgotten. All that remains is outrage.
I'm ultimately still not sure how I feel about it. I still love F1, and thought that Schumacher's gestures to Barrichello after the race were nice, but were just gestures. The chance that he had to make a real gesture, putting on the brakes, was lost. I don't think that the sport has been ruined for me, but I'm a journalist, so I'm probably a bit more cynical than the average bear. From the perspective of Ferrari, I understand the move.
But from the perspective of a guy sitting on the sofa with his wife on Sunday morning feeling hollow, it's a bit tough to stomach.
I think we do know one thing: Ferrari, or any other team, will never do this again. The sport is in trouble financially, but it was before Sunday's display. It's just too expensive. I think that the fans will get over it, but it will take some time. The question is, what will the FIA do, if anything? Apparently, an FIA representative said that there are no specific rules in place that govern that sort of behavior, but in the face of such a monstrous black eye for the sport, surely they must do something?
Kevin
| TampaWRX | 05-12-2002 08:38 PM |
Fact is, the FIA will likely do nothing, at least nothing of substance or genuine meaning. The FIA is about TV ratings, not racing, witness the birth of narrow cars, grooved tires, automatic transmissions and launch control. They are also extremely inconsistent, witness Juan Pablo Montoya's penalties this year.
F1 has been soiled for me ever since they let Senna and Prost run each other off the road, encouraged Michael Shumacher to do the same with Damon Hill and finally when Max Moseley offered up the "F1 is a chess match" explanation for the appalling racing post-1998. With this latest incident, I am totally over modern F1. I will still herald the history and worship the racers of the past, but F1 as a sport just became irrelevant in my universe. It's the WWF on wheels...totally absurd.
If being a journalist means you have to accept that such things are just a part of life, I pity you gtguy. :(
F1 has been soiled for me ever since they let Senna and Prost run each other off the road, encouraged Michael Shumacher to do the same with Damon Hill and finally when Max Moseley offered up the "F1 is a chess match" explanation for the appalling racing post-1998. With this latest incident, I am totally over modern F1. I will still herald the history and worship the racers of the past, but F1 as a sport just became irrelevant in my universe. It's the WWF on wheels...totally absurd.
If being a journalist means you have to accept that such things are just a part of life, I pity you gtguy. :(
| Ferg | 05-12-2002 08:47 PM |
To make myself feel better, I just watched my tape of Spa 2000. Mika's pass on Schumacher is all that is good with the world.
That's Motor Racing.
Ferg.
That's Motor Racing.
Ferg.
| TampaWRX | 05-12-2002 09:23 PM |
Amen to that. You're talking about the one where they split Zonta and go inside/outside. Awesome move. :D
| johnfelstead | 05-12-2002 09:28 PM |
I bet Mika is slapping himself on the back now for quiting when he did!
| gtguy | 05-12-2002 11:17 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by TampaWRX [/i]
[B]Fact is, the FIA will likely do nothing, at least nothing of substance or genuine meaning. The FIA is about TV ratings, not racing, witness the birth of narrow cars, grooved tires, automatic transmissions and launch control. They are also extremely inconsistent, witness Juan Pablo Montoya's penalties this year.
F1 has been soiled for me ever since they let Senna and Prost run each other off the road, encouraged Michael Shumacher to do the same with Damon Hill and finally when Max Moseley offered up the "F1 is a chess match" explanation for the appalling racing post-1998. With this latest incident, I am totally over modern F1. I will still herald the history and worship the racers of the past, but F1 as a sport just became irrelevant in my universe. It's the WWF on wheels...totally absurd.
If being a journalist means you have to accept that such things are just a part of life, I pity you gtguy. :( [/B][/QUOTE]
Naaah, I wouldn't pity me. I just think that I have seen the inside view, so I have the perspective that many don't have on such matters. Ultimately, we have to accept it, because we can't do anything about it, except perhaps not watch, or post on forums like this one.
Things like that ARE a part of life. F1 has had more than its share of appalling moments..team orders, cheating, drivers ramming each other; this is but another one, and it too, shall pass. Whether it passes with or without the participation/viewership of many fans who are outraged about the incident, is up to those individuals.
And IMHO, I know that everyone thinks that Schumacher ran Damon Hill off of the road to win his first title. But I watch that race every now and then, and am I crazy, or should Hill have simply shown a bit of patience? He was faster than Schumacher at that time, and was eating him up, which was why Schumacher got into trouble. His car would have been damaged from that incident, and if Hill had waited a bit, he could have simply passed on the course, rather than trying to rush past when it was obvious that Schumacher was going to try to get back on the racing line. I know it's heat of the moment and all that jazz, but...
And let's not forget that they had to suspend Schumacher for almost a third of the season to get Hill to that point, where he had a shot at the title. As I recall back then, the comments were that the suspension of Schumacher was excessive, and cynics suggested that the FIA was artificially trying to make the championship closer. Without those races in the dock, Schumacher would have been gone. End of story.
Now, when Schumacher tried to punt Villeneuve, THAT was a horrific display of sportsmanship, and Schumacher got what he deserved, though it could be argued that Ferrari didn't (they kept Constructors points).
BTW, I like this forum a lot. It's the only one I have seen where people can disagree and make contentions, without having things dissolve into a flame war/personal ugliness. I think that's cool. Perhaps it helps that the subjects of our commentary aren't really related to us or our car choices, etc.
Kevin
[B]Fact is, the FIA will likely do nothing, at least nothing of substance or genuine meaning. The FIA is about TV ratings, not racing, witness the birth of narrow cars, grooved tires, automatic transmissions and launch control. They are also extremely inconsistent, witness Juan Pablo Montoya's penalties this year.
F1 has been soiled for me ever since they let Senna and Prost run each other off the road, encouraged Michael Shumacher to do the same with Damon Hill and finally when Max Moseley offered up the "F1 is a chess match" explanation for the appalling racing post-1998. With this latest incident, I am totally over modern F1. I will still herald the history and worship the racers of the past, but F1 as a sport just became irrelevant in my universe. It's the WWF on wheels...totally absurd.
If being a journalist means you have to accept that such things are just a part of life, I pity you gtguy. :( [/B][/QUOTE]
Naaah, I wouldn't pity me. I just think that I have seen the inside view, so I have the perspective that many don't have on such matters. Ultimately, we have to accept it, because we can't do anything about it, except perhaps not watch, or post on forums like this one.
Things like that ARE a part of life. F1 has had more than its share of appalling moments..team orders, cheating, drivers ramming each other; this is but another one, and it too, shall pass. Whether it passes with or without the participation/viewership of many fans who are outraged about the incident, is up to those individuals.
And IMHO, I know that everyone thinks that Schumacher ran Damon Hill off of the road to win his first title. But I watch that race every now and then, and am I crazy, or should Hill have simply shown a bit of patience? He was faster than Schumacher at that time, and was eating him up, which was why Schumacher got into trouble. His car would have been damaged from that incident, and if Hill had waited a bit, he could have simply passed on the course, rather than trying to rush past when it was obvious that Schumacher was going to try to get back on the racing line. I know it's heat of the moment and all that jazz, but...
And let's not forget that they had to suspend Schumacher for almost a third of the season to get Hill to that point, where he had a shot at the title. As I recall back then, the comments were that the suspension of Schumacher was excessive, and cynics suggested that the FIA was artificially trying to make the championship closer. Without those races in the dock, Schumacher would have been gone. End of story.
Now, when Schumacher tried to punt Villeneuve, THAT was a horrific display of sportsmanship, and Schumacher got what he deserved, though it could be argued that Ferrari didn't (they kept Constructors points).
BTW, I like this forum a lot. It's the only one I have seen where people can disagree and make contentions, without having things dissolve into a flame war/personal ugliness. I think that's cool. Perhaps it helps that the subjects of our commentary aren't really related to us or our car choices, etc.
Kevin
| OnTheGas | 05-13-2002 05:59 AM |
Great Race!
That was a great F1 race... drama through-out, on-track passes galore, differing race strategies (common wisdom in the paddock was that this was a one-stop track... wrong!), and to hear the jeering and whistles afterwards was really enjoyable.
I watched this race with some fellow F1 fans on a big screen over at the local indoor kart racing track which made it even more fun to watch.
So many good drives today... where to begin? Perhaps some midfield runners like JV, Heidfeld, Fisi? And how about McLaren, boom! Williams? Ferrari? I'll start with the good drives through the mid-field...
In the past at A1-Ring, we have seen some good drives from Villeneuve in his Bar-car, but today's drive was almost outstanding. Unfotunately, on the first lap, he made a mistake, for which he would pay dearly, running into Bernoldi and ending Bernoldi's race.
After the contre-temp, JV was in 18th place. On the 14th lap, after some clean but aggressive driving, he was in 8th place! First he track passed his dear friend, Eddie Irvine, then Takuma, then his own team-mate Panis (who was on a one stop strategy, and going backwards). Then between laps six and fourteen, he track passed Trulli, McNish, Fisichella, Button, and Salo, which put him in 7th!
JV then did his 1st pit-stop, and came out down in 12th. The safety car came out for his team-mates lurid blow up and slide down the front straight (if this was fiction, we could call that event fore-shadowing!). He took advantage one of the safety cars, to serve a drive though penalty for ending Bernoldi's race on the 1st lap.
When the green flag flew which began the run to the end of the race, JV was in 7th due to various pit-stop stategies of competitors. Then he track passed Fisi, and DC. Ralf, and Juan pitted in front of him, and he was in third position when JV came into the pits for his final fuel stop. He exited in eighth, but the motor was starting to do its own foreshadowing, and he did not pass anyone else, before his motor blew up.
A more fortunate Honda driver was Fisi, who started 15th, but finished 5th! Jordan, and Honda's first points of the season! I believe his one and only track pass was the most crucial, he passed DC for fifth. It is interesting, that Fisi was on the more conventional 1 stopper strategy, but JV, Rubens, and MS sure seemed to show that the Bridgestones work well on a two-stopper stategy.
It should be noted that DC had the better of Kimi briefly before Kimi's motor blew-up, and also Button. (The british press make a big deal about the Button/DC rivalry for best english driver, but frankly I think outside of britain, few people care about such trivia.) But this track suits DC well, we should not be surpised. Nonetheless, I was very curious to see Kimi's performance against DC on this track. If Kimi had driven around DC, it would have been an interesting statement about his abilities. We'll have to wait til later in the season, I suppose!
Speaking of intra-team rivalries, over at BMW.Williams, we have two of the best drivers strapping on helmets on today's F1 grid. At the last race, Barcelona, in studying the laptime charts, I noticed that Juan did an excellent job of pressuring Ralf. Check out this chart, [url]http://www.forix.com/asp/gp.asp?z=0&k=0&l=0&r=10205&c=7[/url]
Looking at the dark blue line, which is Ralf, before he drops off, you can see that Juan, in th medium blue line, clearly was increasing the pressure. The laptimes show this as well. Chalk one up at Spain for Juan.
Michelin! Holy Cow! Did you see Juan run the whole darned race on one set of tires? That blew my mind! If he could have tanked up w/enough fuel for the whole race, he would not have had to stop, and he might have gained a position or won!
At A1-Ring, Juan and Ralf were on different tires and strategies, so comparisons are difficult. Ralf ran the softer tire on a one stop strategy, but came home one spot behind his team-mate in fourth. But Ralf thought that he would have faired better, if he could have come in during the second safety car period, but Williams would not let him because it appeared that Juan had a problem with one of his front wings. It turns out there was no problem, fortunately. Nonetheless, Ralf was slower coming into his pit-stop, where as Juan was able to really push again. [url]http://www.forix.com/asp/gp.asp?z=0&k=0&l=0&r=10206&c=7[/url]
So, does that mean that Michelin's soft compound had worn out by the time Ralf made it in? And why did Ralf not rip off some fast laps on his new tires, whereas Juan did? I don't recall seeing this on the broadcast, and I'm speculating, but he might have come out of the pits behind a lapped dogfight, which will slow laptimes down for a couple of laps or so. Juan came out and ran a good race pace, but Ralf was able to gain on him. In comparison to the Bridgestones, I would say that Michelin failed again at A1-Ring. (More on this in the future.)
In the group at the local indoor kart with which I watched the race, everyone there but me were surprised and disappointed by Ferrari ordering Rubens to give first place to Michael.
It seemed like a pretty logical decision to me. Here is why:[list][*]Ferrari is different than the other top teams, in that their objective is to win [b]both[/b] the Constructor's Championship, [b]and[/b] the Drivers Championship. Whereas Williams and McLaren are playing this game [b]only[/b] to win the Constructor's Championship. A Drivers Championship is only a bonus, not a primary objective.[*][quote][i]Jean Todt [/i][URL=http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=92045]presents Ferrari's recent history well:[/URL]
[b]In the past we have lost the Drivers' Championship at the last race three times in a row and we know we are up against strong opposition.[/b][/quote][*]Ferrari has been unreliable this year, and they have been fortunate that the unreliability has only struck Rubens. Malaysia, Brazil, and Spain all saw broken Ferrari cars. Michael's turn is coming, but they don't know if he will lose only one race to unreliability, or multiple races to unreliability. BMW.Williams on the otherhand, has been nearly bullet proof, both cars scoring points everytime out, excepting Ralf's two mistakes which took him out of the points, Australia, and Spain.
[*]Finally, and a more obvious reason why this was not surprising is that Michael's luck, and abilities have never shone at the A1-Ring. He has often been out-performed by his team-mate, but pulled himself back up to the position behind his team-mate, and Ferrari team orders have given him an extra position. This is one of few circuits where Michael is out-performed, year after year. No surprises today.[/list]Logical, conservative, ruthless, yes, call it what you will, but Jean Todt is not paid to please race fans, he is paid to win. Jean does his job very well.
So, to look the future from Ferrari's viewpoint, when may Michael and Rubens be cut loose to race free? If Bridgestone keeps showing up to races with better tires, while Michelin fumbles in dark, (three races in a row, Imola, Barcelona, and now A1-Ring), and if the F2002 continues to show itself to be anywhere from a half to a full second faster at many circuits, then the championship could be wrapped perhaps as soon as the British GP (with out doing the serious math, I'm just guessing), and that would be the end of the team orders.
On the other hand, Michelin may wake up and smell the french coffee. BMW.Williams, Renault, and McLaren may find more speed in the next few weeks than does Ferrari. And then they could start hunting down Ferraris on race weekends. It is not likely (especially if Pierre Dupasquier continues as Michelin's Motorsport Director), but one can always hope.
So don't be mad, or upset. It was very special to see Rubens joy after the race. Though he seemed subdued due to the weird circumstances, he did seem very pleased with his performance. He didn't seem surprised to hear the orders come over the radio. I love what he said when asked if, as a racer, there was some twinge (of hesitation) to obey the order. [quote][i]Rubens Barrichello [url]http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=92065[/url] [/i]
[b]I'm going through a period of a very good time of my life. I'm becoming a better person, a better driver, so there's no point in arguing. I think my determination will bring me a lot more wins, so that's the way I see it, so there's no point arguing. We saw it when Michael gave me the trophy, the trophy I take home today so I'm happy for that. [/b][/quote]It's true that he has become a better driver, and he is obviously proud to have out-driven Michael. Very few people can say that. I do believe that his day is coming...
Rubens was another driver that drove a great race, and what great race that was!
I watched this race with some fellow F1 fans on a big screen over at the local indoor kart racing track which made it even more fun to watch.
So many good drives today... where to begin? Perhaps some midfield runners like JV, Heidfeld, Fisi? And how about McLaren, boom! Williams? Ferrari? I'll start with the good drives through the mid-field...
In the past at A1-Ring, we have seen some good drives from Villeneuve in his Bar-car, but today's drive was almost outstanding. Unfotunately, on the first lap, he made a mistake, for which he would pay dearly, running into Bernoldi and ending Bernoldi's race.
After the contre-temp, JV was in 18th place. On the 14th lap, after some clean but aggressive driving, he was in 8th place! First he track passed his dear friend, Eddie Irvine, then Takuma, then his own team-mate Panis (who was on a one stop strategy, and going backwards). Then between laps six and fourteen, he track passed Trulli, McNish, Fisichella, Button, and Salo, which put him in 7th!
JV then did his 1st pit-stop, and came out down in 12th. The safety car came out for his team-mates lurid blow up and slide down the front straight (if this was fiction, we could call that event fore-shadowing!). He took advantage one of the safety cars, to serve a drive though penalty for ending Bernoldi's race on the 1st lap.
When the green flag flew which began the run to the end of the race, JV was in 7th due to various pit-stop stategies of competitors. Then he track passed Fisi, and DC. Ralf, and Juan pitted in front of him, and he was in third position when JV came into the pits for his final fuel stop. He exited in eighth, but the motor was starting to do its own foreshadowing, and he did not pass anyone else, before his motor blew up.
A more fortunate Honda driver was Fisi, who started 15th, but finished 5th! Jordan, and Honda's first points of the season! I believe his one and only track pass was the most crucial, he passed DC for fifth. It is interesting, that Fisi was on the more conventional 1 stopper strategy, but JV, Rubens, and MS sure seemed to show that the Bridgestones work well on a two-stopper stategy.
It should be noted that DC had the better of Kimi briefly before Kimi's motor blew-up, and also Button. (The british press make a big deal about the Button/DC rivalry for best english driver, but frankly I think outside of britain, few people care about such trivia.) But this track suits DC well, we should not be surpised. Nonetheless, I was very curious to see Kimi's performance against DC on this track. If Kimi had driven around DC, it would have been an interesting statement about his abilities. We'll have to wait til later in the season, I suppose!
Speaking of intra-team rivalries, over at BMW.Williams, we have two of the best drivers strapping on helmets on today's F1 grid. At the last race, Barcelona, in studying the laptime charts, I noticed that Juan did an excellent job of pressuring Ralf. Check out this chart, [url]http://www.forix.com/asp/gp.asp?z=0&k=0&l=0&r=10205&c=7[/url]
Looking at the dark blue line, which is Ralf, before he drops off, you can see that Juan, in th medium blue line, clearly was increasing the pressure. The laptimes show this as well. Chalk one up at Spain for Juan.
Michelin! Holy Cow! Did you see Juan run the whole darned race on one set of tires? That blew my mind! If he could have tanked up w/enough fuel for the whole race, he would not have had to stop, and he might have gained a position or won!
At A1-Ring, Juan and Ralf were on different tires and strategies, so comparisons are difficult. Ralf ran the softer tire on a one stop strategy, but came home one spot behind his team-mate in fourth. But Ralf thought that he would have faired better, if he could have come in during the second safety car period, but Williams would not let him because it appeared that Juan had a problem with one of his front wings. It turns out there was no problem, fortunately. Nonetheless, Ralf was slower coming into his pit-stop, where as Juan was able to really push again. [url]http://www.forix.com/asp/gp.asp?z=0&k=0&l=0&r=10206&c=7[/url]
So, does that mean that Michelin's soft compound had worn out by the time Ralf made it in? And why did Ralf not rip off some fast laps on his new tires, whereas Juan did? I don't recall seeing this on the broadcast, and I'm speculating, but he might have come out of the pits behind a lapped dogfight, which will slow laptimes down for a couple of laps or so. Juan came out and ran a good race pace, but Ralf was able to gain on him. In comparison to the Bridgestones, I would say that Michelin failed again at A1-Ring. (More on this in the future.)
In the group at the local indoor kart with which I watched the race, everyone there but me were surprised and disappointed by Ferrari ordering Rubens to give first place to Michael.
It seemed like a pretty logical decision to me. Here is why:[list][*]Ferrari is different than the other top teams, in that their objective is to win [b]both[/b] the Constructor's Championship, [b]and[/b] the Drivers Championship. Whereas Williams and McLaren are playing this game [b]only[/b] to win the Constructor's Championship. A Drivers Championship is only a bonus, not a primary objective.[*][quote][i]Jean Todt [/i][URL=http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=92045]presents Ferrari's recent history well:[/URL]
[b]In the past we have lost the Drivers' Championship at the last race three times in a row and we know we are up against strong opposition.[/b][/quote][*]Ferrari has been unreliable this year, and they have been fortunate that the unreliability has only struck Rubens. Malaysia, Brazil, and Spain all saw broken Ferrari cars. Michael's turn is coming, but they don't know if he will lose only one race to unreliability, or multiple races to unreliability. BMW.Williams on the otherhand, has been nearly bullet proof, both cars scoring points everytime out, excepting Ralf's two mistakes which took him out of the points, Australia, and Spain.
[*]Finally, and a more obvious reason why this was not surprising is that Michael's luck, and abilities have never shone at the A1-Ring. He has often been out-performed by his team-mate, but pulled himself back up to the position behind his team-mate, and Ferrari team orders have given him an extra position. This is one of few circuits where Michael is out-performed, year after year. No surprises today.[/list]Logical, conservative, ruthless, yes, call it what you will, but Jean Todt is not paid to please race fans, he is paid to win. Jean does his job very well.
So, to look the future from Ferrari's viewpoint, when may Michael and Rubens be cut loose to race free? If Bridgestone keeps showing up to races with better tires, while Michelin fumbles in dark, (three races in a row, Imola, Barcelona, and now A1-Ring), and if the F2002 continues to show itself to be anywhere from a half to a full second faster at many circuits, then the championship could be wrapped perhaps as soon as the British GP (with out doing the serious math, I'm just guessing), and that would be the end of the team orders.
On the other hand, Michelin may wake up and smell the french coffee. BMW.Williams, Renault, and McLaren may find more speed in the next few weeks than does Ferrari. And then they could start hunting down Ferraris on race weekends. It is not likely (especially if Pierre Dupasquier continues as Michelin's Motorsport Director), but one can always hope.
So don't be mad, or upset. It was very special to see Rubens joy after the race. Though he seemed subdued due to the weird circumstances, he did seem very pleased with his performance. He didn't seem surprised to hear the orders come over the radio. I love what he said when asked if, as a racer, there was some twinge (of hesitation) to obey the order. [quote][i]Rubens Barrichello [url]http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=92065[/url] [/i]
[b]I'm going through a period of a very good time of my life. I'm becoming a better person, a better driver, so there's no point in arguing. I think my determination will bring me a lot more wins, so that's the way I see it, so there's no point arguing. We saw it when Michael gave me the trophy, the trophy I take home today so I'm happy for that. [/b][/quote]It's true that he has become a better driver, and he is obviously proud to have out-driven Michael. Very few people can say that. I do believe that his day is coming...
Rubens was another driver that drove a great race, and what great race that was!
| gtguy | 05-13-2002 07:56 AM |
Hats off to you, OnTheGas. Excellent post. I fully intend to be in front of my telly come Monaco, even in its ABC tape-delayed guise. I might have to turn the sound off, but I'll be there! :lol:
I'll have to check out Montoya's tires at the end of the race again, but it was pretty amazing that Michelin could give him a set that went a race distance, and the safety car periods helped him a LOT. With no safety cars, I wonder how deep into the field Rubens and Michael would have lapped. As it was, I think that the safety car periods made for better racing, despite the carnage that caused them.
It looks like this season is going to shape up to be Ferrari off by itself, then Williams fighting it out, then the rest of the gang. I just don't see Williams getting fast enough to challenge Ferrari this season, car redesigns notwithstanding. The pace that Rubens and Michael were showing (18+ sec lead over Ralf, 11 laps into the race) was staggering. Even if there had been no safety car periods and you extrapolate from the existing data, by lap 23 (pit stop window, though who knows how long they could have gone?), both Ferrari drivers would have had plenty of time to stop and come out in the same position they'd left the track. That would have left things exactly as they in fact turned out, but with closer on-track gaps for the matched (Ferrari second, Williams one and only) pit stops. The Williams cars probably would have been closer during that stint, because of lighter fuel load, vs. heavier fuel load in the Ferrari. Look at Michael being behind Ralf for that brief period in the race, after the second safety car period.
And Michael had the highest straightaway speed? What's up with that? Isn't Williams supposed to have a significant horsepower advantage? I think that the F2002, given how well it handles, is going to be scary to watch at Monaco, a track where Michael traditionally shines, even in a lesser car.
I had thought that qualifying would be indicative of racing gaps somewhat, and that the Williams cars would be closer to Ferrari. I was surprised by how rapidly Rubens and Michael just checked out.
And OTG, I agree with your assessments of the Ferrari strategy, now that things have had a chance to settle a bit. I understood at the time, but after watching Rubens spank Michael all weekend, and being a huge fan of both drivers, the fan in me thinks that Rubens should have gotten the win.
Montoya, at the press conference, said it best, when he wondered what Ferrari had to be afraid of? They had the fastest car, a large lead in the driver's championship, and everything going their way.
But I'm sure that Todt is flashing back to the "broken leg" year, or that period where Michael kept getting caught in starting episodes, and thinking that he wants more points, right now.
And thanks for reminding me of the different philosophies, in that Williams and McLaren value constructors, while Ferrari wants both. I actually think that Ferrari would prefer driver's championship, given the way that it positions itself in the marketplace. :lol:
Kevin
I'll have to check out Montoya's tires at the end of the race again, but it was pretty amazing that Michelin could give him a set that went a race distance, and the safety car periods helped him a LOT. With no safety cars, I wonder how deep into the field Rubens and Michael would have lapped. As it was, I think that the safety car periods made for better racing, despite the carnage that caused them.
It looks like this season is going to shape up to be Ferrari off by itself, then Williams fighting it out, then the rest of the gang. I just don't see Williams getting fast enough to challenge Ferrari this season, car redesigns notwithstanding. The pace that Rubens and Michael were showing (18+ sec lead over Ralf, 11 laps into the race) was staggering. Even if there had been no safety car periods and you extrapolate from the existing data, by lap 23 (pit stop window, though who knows how long they could have gone?), both Ferrari drivers would have had plenty of time to stop and come out in the same position they'd left the track. That would have left things exactly as they in fact turned out, but with closer on-track gaps for the matched (Ferrari second, Williams one and only) pit stops. The Williams cars probably would have been closer during that stint, because of lighter fuel load, vs. heavier fuel load in the Ferrari. Look at Michael being behind Ralf for that brief period in the race, after the second safety car period.
And Michael had the highest straightaway speed? What's up with that? Isn't Williams supposed to have a significant horsepower advantage? I think that the F2002, given how well it handles, is going to be scary to watch at Monaco, a track where Michael traditionally shines, even in a lesser car.
I had thought that qualifying would be indicative of racing gaps somewhat, and that the Williams cars would be closer to Ferrari. I was surprised by how rapidly Rubens and Michael just checked out.
And OTG, I agree with your assessments of the Ferrari strategy, now that things have had a chance to settle a bit. I understood at the time, but after watching Rubens spank Michael all weekend, and being a huge fan of both drivers, the fan in me thinks that Rubens should have gotten the win.
Montoya, at the press conference, said it best, when he wondered what Ferrari had to be afraid of? They had the fastest car, a large lead in the driver's championship, and everything going their way.
But I'm sure that Todt is flashing back to the "broken leg" year, or that period where Michael kept getting caught in starting episodes, and thinking that he wants more points, right now.
And thanks for reminding me of the different philosophies, in that Williams and McLaren value constructors, while Ferrari wants both. I actually think that Ferrari would prefer driver's championship, given the way that it positions itself in the marketplace. :lol:
Kevin
| TampaWRX | 05-13-2002 11:00 AM |
Rose colored glasses anyone? I think Stirling Moss said it best,"I would tell them to bugger off if they told me to move over". How's that for an inside view? Patrick Head stated that yesterday's finish was the most disgusting thing he had seen in F1...he's been involved for well over 20 years.
I'm not sure what you think F1 should be, but motor racing should be anything but a soap opera. Champions drive to win, drivers show up to get a pay check. I think it's clear that Rubens is no champion, but to so blatantly thumb your nose at the fans...THE FANS MAKE ALL THIS POSSIBLE BTW!!...is just disgraceful.
Sponsors pay all that money to be associated with a team in order to sell goods. Fans are a primary target point for said sponsors because they are the ones who spend the most time watching the cars. If Jean Todt is not worried about the fans, he needs to consider that his sponsors might be.
Yesterday's race was good right up until the end, when it became a farce and an insult to fans of motor racing, as well as the other participants. This ethos of anything being acceptable is disturbing and is probably as much a commentary on the modern state of society as a whole as it is on the sad state of affairs in high level motor racing.
Empathize, sympathize and justify whichever way you can. If it had been a true champion in that car, you would have had to shoot him to take away a potential win. If the team had any dignity left in its rotten soul...Enzo, you must be screaming today...they would have let the result stand and denied Herr Schumacher those "much needed" 4 points.
BTW, 6% of Italians polled by Italy's number on sports paper supported the decision by Ferrari. If they do not care about the tifosi, they truly are a team who has turned its back on its heritage.
I'm not sure what you think F1 should be, but motor racing should be anything but a soap opera. Champions drive to win, drivers show up to get a pay check. I think it's clear that Rubens is no champion, but to so blatantly thumb your nose at the fans...THE FANS MAKE ALL THIS POSSIBLE BTW!!...is just disgraceful.
Sponsors pay all that money to be associated with a team in order to sell goods. Fans are a primary target point for said sponsors because they are the ones who spend the most time watching the cars. If Jean Todt is not worried about the fans, he needs to consider that his sponsors might be.
Yesterday's race was good right up until the end, when it became a farce and an insult to fans of motor racing, as well as the other participants. This ethos of anything being acceptable is disturbing and is probably as much a commentary on the modern state of society as a whole as it is on the sad state of affairs in high level motor racing.
Empathize, sympathize and justify whichever way you can. If it had been a true champion in that car, you would have had to shoot him to take away a potential win. If the team had any dignity left in its rotten soul...Enzo, you must be screaming today...they would have let the result stand and denied Herr Schumacher those "much needed" 4 points.
BTW, 6% of Italians polled by Italy's number on sports paper supported the decision by Ferrari. If they do not care about the tifosi, they truly are a team who has turned its back on its heritage.
| Zahnster | 05-13-2002 01:45 PM |
I like the full press conference. Especially the very last question.
[QUOTE]Q: All three of you are talking about this as a team sport. Why do we have an individual world championship for drivers?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Q: All three of you are talking about this as a team sport. Why do we have an individual world championship for drivers?[/QUOTE]
| TampaWRX | 05-13-2002 03:34 PM |
If it truly is a team sport, why did it matter that Michael come first? Like I said before, to a champion there is no team, there is only "I" and that's why MS went through and Rubens allowed himself to be robbed of a win. I say again, what kind of a racecar driver moves over to let another driver win???? True motorSPORT is dead, now it's all marketing spin and rhetoric. I guess in a way, you could say it's all politics, complete with super rich politicians and their misguided agendas (Bernie, Max, Bill France Jr.). I was born twenty years too late. There's nothing admirable about modern auto racing. Give me Jimmy Clark, Jackie Stewart and the golden age of modern racing. When's "Nine Days in Summer" supposed to come out on DVD anyway?
| Ferg | 05-13-2002 03:48 PM |
I watched "Champions Forever, The Quick and the Dead." on Friday night.....some things about modern motor racing are very welcome (the increased safety, the better haircuts), but the romance and spectacle are gone I'm afraid.
I'm going to watch "LeMans" with McQueen this afternoon. I just hope the fact that it ends under "team orders" doesn't ruin the movie......
Ferg
.....and I'm renaming my band "Two Fingers to Ferrari":mad:
I'm going to watch "LeMans" with McQueen this afternoon. I just hope the fact that it ends under "team orders" doesn't ruin the movie......
Ferg
.....and I'm renaming my band "Two Fingers to Ferrari":mad:
| TampaWRX | 05-13-2002 07:43 PM |
Everybody go here: [url]http://www.petitiononline.com/F1race/petition.html[/url] and voice your disgust. :mad:
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