| Lowball | 06-04-2003 01:29 PM |
Toyo RA-1's???
�
�
Has anyone used the Toyo RA-1's on the WRX Wagon? And if so what size tire, rim, and offset?
Thanks,
Lowball
Thanks,
Lowball
| grumbly | 06-04-2003 08:33 PM |
My last set of track tires were RA-1s. You can run stock size on the stock rim � 205/55/-16. If you have the extra cash get them shaved down a bit. I ran my set from full tread and I got uneven wear as the center tread blocks would roll up.
-chris
-chris
| dadswrx | 06-05-2003 06:35 AM |
I have 225/50/16 RA-1's on the stock WRX wheels.
Mike
02 WRX Wagon
Mike
02 WRX Wagon
| Lowball | 06-05-2003 11:43 AM |
It seems like a lot of people have them for the stock rims on the wagon. What about 17"?
I'm using my stocks for winter with Dunlops SP Sport5000's.
Need to know if anyone is using them on the wagon with 17" rims?
Thanks,
LB
I'm using my stocks for winter with Dunlops SP Sport5000's.
Need to know if anyone is using them on the wagon with 17" rims?
Thanks,
LB
| Lowball | 06-22-2003 05:09 AM |
Bump.
Can't believe no one has tried RA-1 on the wagon in a 17" rim. :confused:
Anyone??
Thanks,
Lowball
Can't believe no one has tried RA-1 on the wagon in a 17" rim. :confused:
Anyone??
Thanks,
Lowball
| dadswrx | 06-22-2003 08:23 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Lowball [/i]
Can't believe no one has tried RA-1 on the wagon in a 17" rim. :confused: [/B][/QUOTE]
I can believe it. Most people that run WRX's participate in either D-stock or the street touring classes. D-stock requires (basically) the use of the same size wheel as OE, and Street touring does not allow R-compound tires. You could use this combination in the street-prepared classes, however, I have never seen a WRX run in SP.
You could also run that combination at a HPDE, but it would probably cost you more than a stock size tire on the OE wheel. HPDE's get expensive so most might try to save where they can.
I would imagine that any size wheel tire combination that has fit on a WRX will work with the same size RA-1.
Just my .02
Mike
02 WRX Wagon
Can't believe no one has tried RA-1 on the wagon in a 17" rim. :confused: [/B][/QUOTE]
I can believe it. Most people that run WRX's participate in either D-stock or the street touring classes. D-stock requires (basically) the use of the same size wheel as OE, and Street touring does not allow R-compound tires. You could use this combination in the street-prepared classes, however, I have never seen a WRX run in SP.
You could also run that combination at a HPDE, but it would probably cost you more than a stock size tire on the OE wheel. HPDE's get expensive so most might try to save where they can.
I would imagine that any size wheel tire combination that has fit on a WRX will work with the same size RA-1.
Just my .02
Mike
02 WRX Wagon
| Lowball | 06-22-2003 12:36 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by dadswrx [/i]
[B]
I can believe it. Most people that run WRX's participate in either D-stock or the street touring classes. D-stock requires (basically) the use of the same size wheel as OE, and Street touring does not allow R-compound tires. You could use this combination in the street-prepared classes, however, I have never seen a WRX run in SP.
You could also run that combination at a HPDE, but it would probably cost you more than a stock size tire on the OE wheel. HPDE's get expensive so most might try to save where they can.
I would imagine that any size wheel tire combination that has fit on a WRX will work with the same size RA-1.
Just my .02
Mike
02 WRX Wagon [/B][/QUOTE]
Thanks Mike. I don't plan on using them for auto-x, just HPDE track events. I can get a pair that was only used twice and want to give them a try but don't want to if it's gonna be a problem. I guess I'm giving up some width switching to the 205's but they should still have more grip than my S03's. If I did run auto-x it would be just for fun so if I ran in SP that would be ok with me.
Thanks again.
Anyone else???
[B]
I can believe it. Most people that run WRX's participate in either D-stock or the street touring classes. D-stock requires (basically) the use of the same size wheel as OE, and Street touring does not allow R-compound tires. You could use this combination in the street-prepared classes, however, I have never seen a WRX run in SP.
You could also run that combination at a HPDE, but it would probably cost you more than a stock size tire on the OE wheel. HPDE's get expensive so most might try to save where they can.
I would imagine that any size wheel tire combination that has fit on a WRX will work with the same size RA-1.
Just my .02
Mike
02 WRX Wagon [/B][/QUOTE]
Thanks Mike. I don't plan on using them for auto-x, just HPDE track events. I can get a pair that was only used twice and want to give them a try but don't want to if it's gonna be a problem. I guess I'm giving up some width switching to the 205's but they should still have more grip than my S03's. If I did run auto-x it would be just for fun so if I ran in SP that would be ok with me.
Thanks again.
Anyone else???
| Lowball | 06-23-2003 11:52 AM |
Load
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Well I called Toyo today and they didn't recommend using the 205/40-17's on the WRX. It was because of the load ratings. Luke at TireRack also stated the same thing when I PM him and asked him about the tires. He stated "The 205/40-17 is too short and doesn't have the proper load capacity", and Toyo confirmed that.
The load rating on the RA1 in size 205/40-17 is
[COLOR=red]84[/COLOR]. According to Toyo the load rating required for the WRX is [COLOR=red]89[/COLOR]. Therefore Toyo said use the 235/45-17, which I'm still not sure it will work on the wagon...even though Toyo said it was shown on there filament chart. I did specifially ask for the Sport Wagon and they had a listing for it.
Anyway thanks for everyones responses.
Lowball
The load rating on the RA1 in size 205/40-17 is
[COLOR=red]84[/COLOR]. According to Toyo the load rating required for the WRX is [COLOR=red]89[/COLOR]. Therefore Toyo said use the 235/45-17, which I'm still not sure it will work on the wagon...even though Toyo said it was shown on there filament chart. I did specifially ask for the Sport Wagon and they had a listing for it.
Anyway thanks for everyones responses.
Lowball
| Lowball | 04-04-2005 11:42 PM |
Well after close to 2 years I finally got my RA1's! :banana:
17x8 with 48mm offset 235/40-17's
Rolled fenders in the rear
Zeal Coilovers
2.4deg neg camber rear and 3.0deg neg camber front.
So can anyone recommend starting cold tire pressure for track days?
:)
17x8 with 48mm offset 235/40-17's
Rolled fenders in the rear
Zeal Coilovers
2.4deg neg camber rear and 3.0deg neg camber front.
So can anyone recommend starting cold tire pressure for track days?
:)
| jmolaver | 04-05-2005 01:59 AM |
:lol: congrats lowball..
btw that's some serious negative camber you have there!
btw that's some serious negative camber you have there!
| ratt_finkel | 04-05-2005 06:50 PM |
I'd dial out a tad bit or negative camber, in the rear. Say 1.5-2.0.
For a track day, I'd [i]guess[/i] 35 psi. They will heat up quickly. The optimum pressure is something you have to decide on yourself.
For a track day, I'd [i]guess[/i] 35 psi. They will heat up quickly. The optimum pressure is something you have to decide on yourself.
| Lowball | 04-05-2005 11:23 PM |
[QUOTE=ratt_finkel]I'd dial out a tad bit or negative camber, in the rear. Say 1.5-2.0.
For a track day, I'd [i]guess[/i] 35 psi. They will heat up quickly. The optimum pressure is something you have to decide on yourself.[/QUOTE]
I'll take that into consideration.
I just needed a starting point for the tires since I've never run them on track. I know the optimum pressure will be decided based on how the car is handling and tire temps (via Pyrometer).
For a track day, I'd [i]guess[/i] 35 psi. They will heat up quickly. The optimum pressure is something you have to decide on yourself.[/QUOTE]
I'll take that into consideration.
I just needed a starting point for the tires since I've never run them on track. I know the optimum pressure will be decided based on how the car is handling and tire temps (via Pyrometer).
| bgsntth | 04-06-2005 12:43 PM |
I'm sure you remember the absolutely ridiculous pressures I had to run due to my ride height and lack of camber (-1.2). The RA-1's seem to like higher pressure, and subsequently don't build-up as much heat. With your set-up and unshaved tires, I would probably start with 38f/34r. Chalk is your friend.
| TubeDriver | 04-06-2005 04:13 PM |
That kind of neg rear camber (with much less front camber) is going to lead to some serious understeer. Unshaved RA-1 are downrighht scary at track speeds because of tread squirm. I would consider them unusable at the track when at full tread depth (in the dry). They will also tend to blister if over heated when at full tread depth. Unshaved will work better at autoX. I would reccomend wearing them down a bit before you hit the track.
| Lowball | 04-06-2005 05:09 PM |
[QUOTE=TubeDriver]That kind of neg rear camber (with much less front camber) is going to lead to some serious understeer. Unshaved RA-1 are downrighht scary at track speeds because of tread squirm. I would consider them unusable at the track when at full tread depth (in the dry). They will also tend to blister if over heated when at full tread depth. Unshaved will work better at autoX. I would reccomend wearing them down a bit before you hit the track.[/QUOTE]
Yeah that's what I'm kinda hearing from Gary Sheehan too. He said it could lead to understeer and to dial back the rear camber 1/2 a degree at a time. Then if the rear is getting loose or unstable put back in camber in 1/4 deg settings. He said I needed a bubble gauge??? Any Idea what that is??
Yeah that's what I'm kinda hearing from Gary Sheehan too. He said it could lead to understeer and to dial back the rear camber 1/2 a degree at a time. Then if the rear is getting loose or unstable put back in camber in 1/4 deg settings. He said I needed a bubble gauge??? Any Idea what that is??
| TubeDriver | 04-06-2005 06:43 PM |
A bubble gauge is what it is. The gauge uses a bubble to tell you have far the angle has changed. You can use a regular strraight bubble level to guesstimate or buy a fancy one that mounts over your hub.
[QUOTE=Lowball]Yeah that's what I'm kinda hearing from Gary Sheehan too. He said it could lead to understeer and to dial back the rear camber 1/2 a degree at a time. Then if the rear is getting loose or unstable put back in camber in 1/4 deg settings. He said I needed a bubble gauge??? Any Idea what that is??[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Lowball]Yeah that's what I'm kinda hearing from Gary Sheehan too. He said it could lead to understeer and to dial back the rear camber 1/2 a degree at a time. Then if the rear is getting loose or unstable put back in camber in 1/4 deg settings. He said I needed a bubble gauge??? Any Idea what that is??[/QUOTE]
| GarySheehan | 04-06-2005 07:26 PM |
[img]http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/images/78260.jpg[/img]
[url]http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/long17.htm[/url]
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
[url]http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/long17.htm[/url]
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| Lowball | 04-06-2005 09:09 PM |
[QUOTE=GarySheehan]
[url]http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/long17.htm[/url]
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url][/QUOTE]
NICE! Thanks Gary!!!
[url]http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/long17.htm[/url]
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url][/QUOTE]
NICE! Thanks Gary!!!
| WillysPU | 04-07-2005 12:48 AM |
I usually start at 35 all around and then keep it steady at 41.
Here is the setup I use on my wrx sedan:
Jim
Suspension:
Whiteline
front sway bar 22mm
front strut bar
rear (HD adj) sway bar 22-24-26mm set on 24,
rear strut bar,
steering bushings
Koni Adjustable Inserts (street setting one turn in front, 3/4 turn rear, track stetting almost full stiff front 1/ 1/2 turn rear)
Ground Control Coil Overs 340#/300#
GC Front Top Mount Plates
Noltec Rear C/C Adjustable Plates
Tires:
Toyo RA-1s on oem wheels for track
Brakes:
Front TWR 4 pots w/ 310 mm rotors bobcat pads for street/xp pads for track
Rear TWR 2 pots w/320 mm rotors TWR pads
Alignment:
Front:
Camber -2.6
Caster L - 3.9 R-4.4
Toe- 0.0
Cross Camber 0.0
Cross Caster -.5
Rear:
Camber -1.6
Toe 0.0
Hieght(measured from ground to fender apex)/Weight:
LF - 25 3/4" 1015lbs
RF - 25 7/8" 939lbs
LR - 25 3/8" 696lbs
RR - 25 3/8" 645lbs
Car Weight = 3115
Car + Driver (180lbs) = 3295
Front weight% vs rear weight% = 59.30%/40.70%
Left side weight% vs Right side weight% = 51.9%/48.1%
LF&RR cross weight 49.95%
RF&LR cross weight 50.05%
Here is the setup I use on my wrx sedan:
Jim
Suspension:
Whiteline
front sway bar 22mm
front strut bar
rear (HD adj) sway bar 22-24-26mm set on 24,
rear strut bar,
steering bushings
Koni Adjustable Inserts (street setting one turn in front, 3/4 turn rear, track stetting almost full stiff front 1/ 1/2 turn rear)
Ground Control Coil Overs 340#/300#
GC Front Top Mount Plates
Noltec Rear C/C Adjustable Plates
Tires:
Toyo RA-1s on oem wheels for track
Brakes:
Front TWR 4 pots w/ 310 mm rotors bobcat pads for street/xp pads for track
Rear TWR 2 pots w/320 mm rotors TWR pads
Alignment:
Front:
Camber -2.6
Caster L - 3.9 R-4.4
Toe- 0.0
Cross Camber 0.0
Cross Caster -.5
Rear:
Camber -1.6
Toe 0.0
Hieght(measured from ground to fender apex)/Weight:
LF - 25 3/4" 1015lbs
RF - 25 7/8" 939lbs
LR - 25 3/8" 696lbs
RR - 25 3/8" 645lbs
Car Weight = 3115
Car + Driver (180lbs) = 3295
Front weight% vs rear weight% = 59.30%/40.70%
Left side weight% vs Right side weight% = 51.9%/48.1%
LF&RR cross weight 49.95%
RF&LR cross weight 50.05%
| Lowball | 04-07-2005 01:45 AM |
[QUOTE=WillysPU]I usually start at 35 all around and then keep it steady at 41.
Here is the setup I use on my wrx sedan:
Jim
[/QUOTE]
Sounds like a nice set up Jim.
Here is mine:
Suspension:
Stock front sway 20mm
STi rear sway 21mm non-adjustable (pink)
STi lateral links, trailing arms, and endlinks (pink)
Poltec aluminum front endlinks
Whiteline steering rack bushings
Rev Lab QuickRack 12.5:1
STi front control arm bushings
STi lower arm brace
STi front strut bar (titanium)
Cusco rear strut bar (carbon)
Zeals Function V6 coilovers w/hard springs [10k(f) / 8k(r)] and camber plates f/r
Tires:
Track-RA1 235/40-17's on 17x8's
Street-PS2's 225/45 on 17x7.5's
Brakes:
Front: StopTech BBK (ST-40) w/s.s. lines, fluid and Pagid Orange pads (track) and axxis ultimate for street.
Rear: Stock w/s.s. lines, axxis ultimate pads for street and track
I haven't had it on track yet with the Zeals, QuickRack or the RA1's w/17x8's. Looking forward to it next week :devil:
But the general consensus seems to be to dial back the rear camber a bit if it's understeering. Gary was saying that the psi while hot should be in the range you are stating (38 to 42 psi).
Here is the setup I use on my wrx sedan:
Jim
[/QUOTE]
Sounds like a nice set up Jim.
Here is mine:
Suspension:
Stock front sway 20mm
STi rear sway 21mm non-adjustable (pink)
STi lateral links, trailing arms, and endlinks (pink)
Poltec aluminum front endlinks
Whiteline steering rack bushings
Rev Lab QuickRack 12.5:1
STi front control arm bushings
STi lower arm brace
STi front strut bar (titanium)
Cusco rear strut bar (carbon)
Zeals Function V6 coilovers w/hard springs [10k(f) / 8k(r)] and camber plates f/r
Tires:
Track-RA1 235/40-17's on 17x8's
Street-PS2's 225/45 on 17x7.5's
Brakes:
Front: StopTech BBK (ST-40) w/s.s. lines, fluid and Pagid Orange pads (track) and axxis ultimate for street.
Rear: Stock w/s.s. lines, axxis ultimate pads for street and track
I haven't had it on track yet with the Zeals, QuickRack or the RA1's w/17x8's. Looking forward to it next week :devil:
But the general consensus seems to be to dial back the rear camber a bit if it's understeering. Gary was saying that the psi while hot should be in the range you are stating (38 to 42 psi).
| WillysPU | 04-07-2005 12:10 PM |
Gary is the Man!
If I set my Koni's to stiff in the rear on certain tracks and certain corners the rear will hop across the corner under accerleration. By softening the rear, either by tire pressure or shock rebound, I can control that hop and dial out the understeer.
Once you have reached your optimal tire pressure take a reading about an hour after you finish racing, that will be the cold temp to start at next time.
Have fun.
btw, I ran my ra-1's with full tread, the tread float isn't too bad unless you are going at 10/10ths and the uneven wear is reduced by flipping the tires. . . they are unidirectional and the treads are only for water dispersion. I just completed my 12th track day on mine and I probably can go 3 or 4 more.
If I set my Koni's to stiff in the rear on certain tracks and certain corners the rear will hop across the corner under accerleration. By softening the rear, either by tire pressure or shock rebound, I can control that hop and dial out the understeer.
Once you have reached your optimal tire pressure take a reading about an hour after you finish racing, that will be the cold temp to start at next time.
Have fun.
btw, I ran my ra-1's with full tread, the tread float isn't too bad unless you are going at 10/10ths and the uneven wear is reduced by flipping the tires. . . they are unidirectional and the treads are only for water dispersion. I just completed my 12th track day on mine and I probably can go 3 or 4 more.
| Lowball | 04-07-2005 12:34 PM |
[QUOTE=WillysPU]Gary is the Man!
If I set my Koni's to stiff in the rear on certain tracks and certain corners the rear will hop across the corner under accerleration. By softening the rear, either by tire pressure or shock rebound, I can control that hop and dial out the understeer.
Once you have reached your optimal tire pressure take a reading about an hour after you finish racing, that will be the cold temp to start at next time.
Have fun.
btw, I ran my ra-1's with full tread, the tread float isn't too bad unless you are going at 10/10ths and the uneven wear is reduced by flipping the tires. . . they are unidirectional and the treads are only for water dispersion. I just completed my 12th track day on mine and I probably can go 3 or 4 more.[/QUOTE]
I could have swarn they were directional :confused: But you are saying that you put the right tires on the left side and left tires on the right side??? What about LF to RR and RR to LF (Diagonal) and so forth and so on??? Didnt' that make the car loose grip?
My damping is 6-way adjustable. Ridding around town on setting 4 is pretty stiff. I'm thinking 4 to 5 on track will be plenty, and then like you said just dial back the damping to help with reducing oversteer/understeer along with tire pressure.
It will take me a session or two to get use to the new set up I'm sure. I'll be sure to make note of my tire pressure 1hr. after the last session. :)
If I set my Koni's to stiff in the rear on certain tracks and certain corners the rear will hop across the corner under accerleration. By softening the rear, either by tire pressure or shock rebound, I can control that hop and dial out the understeer.
Once you have reached your optimal tire pressure take a reading about an hour after you finish racing, that will be the cold temp to start at next time.
Have fun.
btw, I ran my ra-1's with full tread, the tread float isn't too bad unless you are going at 10/10ths and the uneven wear is reduced by flipping the tires. . . they are unidirectional and the treads are only for water dispersion. I just completed my 12th track day on mine and I probably can go 3 or 4 more.[/QUOTE]
I could have swarn they were directional :confused: But you are saying that you put the right tires on the left side and left tires on the right side??? What about LF to RR and RR to LF (Diagonal) and so forth and so on??? Didnt' that make the car loose grip?
My damping is 6-way adjustable. Ridding around town on setting 4 is pretty stiff. I'm thinking 4 to 5 on track will be plenty, and then like you said just dial back the damping to help with reducing oversteer/understeer along with tire pressure.
It will take me a session or two to get use to the new set up I'm sure. I'll be sure to make note of my tire pressure 1hr. after the last session. :)
| WillysPU | 04-07-2005 12:57 PM |
Yep, not only can you switch them front to rear and diagonally you can also have the tire taken off the wheel, flipped over and put back on the wheel.
This allows you to move the outside edge of the tire to the inside. If you run alot of neg camber you will begin to see the inside edge wear more then the outside edge. By taking the tire off the wheel and flipping it over you can balance out the tread wear. If you plan to do this it should be done at about the mid point of the tires life to maximize the tread wear.
However, everytime you move the tire to a new position, additional tread wear occurs while that tire gets seated in the new position. So, it is best to leave them in the same positions for several track events and then flip them and rotate them.
I am at the point where I look for the tires with the most remaining tread and move those to the front.
This allows you to move the outside edge of the tire to the inside. If you run alot of neg camber you will begin to see the inside edge wear more then the outside edge. By taking the tire off the wheel and flipping it over you can balance out the tread wear. If you plan to do this it should be done at about the mid point of the tires life to maximize the tread wear.
However, everytime you move the tire to a new position, additional tread wear occurs while that tire gets seated in the new position. So, it is best to leave them in the same positions for several track events and then flip them and rotate them.
I am at the point where I look for the tires with the most remaining tread and move those to the front.
| narcotix | 04-07-2005 08:48 PM |
Found this recently on another forum (mainly applies to lighter rwd cars, but it gives a good general pic):
[QUOTE]RA-1 Care and Feeding
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1) Toyo Proxes RA-1's may be "flopped". That is, the tires can be rotated on the rim so as to move the inside shoulder to the outside shoulder position. This is actually a good way to increase the life of the tire if you are experiencing excessive outside or inside shoulder wear. If you are experiencing excessive inside or outside shoulder wear, you should flip the tires on the rim at or a little before the tires are half worn to maximize tire life. There is no difference in construction of the inside sidewall vs. the outside sidewall like the old BFGoodrich Comp T/A R1 tires, so doing this is not a problem. Also, if you are running in dry conditions, the tire can be run rotating in the opposite direction. This can be handy if for example you want to rotate the left front to the right rear position during a race weekend. Even though the tread pattern is directional, this is mostly for better water drainage. If you are running in wet conditions, they should definitely be run in the proper direction of rotation.
2) The RA-1 does not really require heat cycling. The compounding is formulated to be very stable from the beginning of the tire's life to wear out. This is one of the reasons why many racers love the RA-1 for enduro's. Also, the compound is not very sensitive to the number of heat cycles you put on it. So even if you put a lot of short easy stints on them, they will not turn rock hard. So you CAN race on green tires. But if you are running at a very fast track such as Willow Springs in California, you may experience blistering if running full tread depth.
Here are some tips when running the RA-1. I have to emphasize that these are only recommendations. Setup boils down to making the car comfortable for each individual driver.
1) The optimum operating temperature for the RA-1 compound is about 200 degrees F. A general minimum operating temperature is about 160 F and a maximum of 220 F. Because tires cool off fairly quickly, you should be reading slightly lower temperatures when checking the tires in the hot pits. So, if your pyrometer is reading 200 F or higher in the pits, you're probably running too hot out on the track.
2) Target HOT pressures are the low 40's. For the 205/50R15, if you start around 34-PSI front/31-PSI rear COLD on the Miata, you should be getting up to around 43 PSI HOT. Hot pressures in the low 40's may be a lot higher than what you are used to, but (cautiously) give it a try and see how it feels to you. A lot of times people run the RA-1 too low. Hot pressures tell you how the tires are working. Adjust cold pressures to reach the optimum hot pressure.
3) As a general rule of thumb for camber setting on the Miata, max out negative camber on the front and use about 1 degree less in the rear (-3 degrees front, -2 degrees rear for example).
4) If you are running at a high speed track with high ambient temperature (again, using Willow Springs for example), you should run shaved tires in dry conditions. Having full tread depth may lead to excessive heat retention causing the tires to overheat, performance to drop off, and then eventually blister.
5) The RA-1 has slightly softer construction then some of the other competition tires out there. One comment I hear from a lot of guys is that you can push them a lot harder than you initially think. As you get used to the tire and how it feels, you may find that the limits are higher than you initially thought. Of course, please be careful when exploring those limits!
6) Just as a side note, one misconception that a lot of beginning racers have is that even tire wear reflects optimum tire setup. That's not necessarily the case. You usually make up the most time on the high speed sections of the circuit. Therefore, you should adjust your setup to optimize tire performance in those high speed areas. This often means more negative camber to optimize the tire contact patch when the suspension is heavily loaded. What you may find is that this leads to greater inside shoulder wear vs. what you are seeing on the outside shoulder since most of your heavy braking is done in a straight line.
I hope this information helps. If you feel this information is worth wile, please feel free to post it on any of the Spec. Miata bulletin boards. Let me know if you have any other questions. Thank you for trying out the RA-1. We'll be doing our best to support you guys. Good luck, and good racing!
Thomas Okihisa
Staff Engineer
Technical Service Department
Toyo Tire (U.S.A.) Corporation [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]RA-1 Care and Feeding
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1) Toyo Proxes RA-1's may be "flopped". That is, the tires can be rotated on the rim so as to move the inside shoulder to the outside shoulder position. This is actually a good way to increase the life of the tire if you are experiencing excessive outside or inside shoulder wear. If you are experiencing excessive inside or outside shoulder wear, you should flip the tires on the rim at or a little before the tires are half worn to maximize tire life. There is no difference in construction of the inside sidewall vs. the outside sidewall like the old BFGoodrich Comp T/A R1 tires, so doing this is not a problem. Also, if you are running in dry conditions, the tire can be run rotating in the opposite direction. This can be handy if for example you want to rotate the left front to the right rear position during a race weekend. Even though the tread pattern is directional, this is mostly for better water drainage. If you are running in wet conditions, they should definitely be run in the proper direction of rotation.
2) The RA-1 does not really require heat cycling. The compounding is formulated to be very stable from the beginning of the tire's life to wear out. This is one of the reasons why many racers love the RA-1 for enduro's. Also, the compound is not very sensitive to the number of heat cycles you put on it. So even if you put a lot of short easy stints on them, they will not turn rock hard. So you CAN race on green tires. But if you are running at a very fast track such as Willow Springs in California, you may experience blistering if running full tread depth.
Here are some tips when running the RA-1. I have to emphasize that these are only recommendations. Setup boils down to making the car comfortable for each individual driver.
1) The optimum operating temperature for the RA-1 compound is about 200 degrees F. A general minimum operating temperature is about 160 F and a maximum of 220 F. Because tires cool off fairly quickly, you should be reading slightly lower temperatures when checking the tires in the hot pits. So, if your pyrometer is reading 200 F or higher in the pits, you're probably running too hot out on the track.
2) Target HOT pressures are the low 40's. For the 205/50R15, if you start around 34-PSI front/31-PSI rear COLD on the Miata, you should be getting up to around 43 PSI HOT. Hot pressures in the low 40's may be a lot higher than what you are used to, but (cautiously) give it a try and see how it feels to you. A lot of times people run the RA-1 too low. Hot pressures tell you how the tires are working. Adjust cold pressures to reach the optimum hot pressure.
3) As a general rule of thumb for camber setting on the Miata, max out negative camber on the front and use about 1 degree less in the rear (-3 degrees front, -2 degrees rear for example).
4) If you are running at a high speed track with high ambient temperature (again, using Willow Springs for example), you should run shaved tires in dry conditions. Having full tread depth may lead to excessive heat retention causing the tires to overheat, performance to drop off, and then eventually blister.
5) The RA-1 has slightly softer construction then some of the other competition tires out there. One comment I hear from a lot of guys is that you can push them a lot harder than you initially think. As you get used to the tire and how it feels, you may find that the limits are higher than you initially thought. Of course, please be careful when exploring those limits!
6) Just as a side note, one misconception that a lot of beginning racers have is that even tire wear reflects optimum tire setup. That's not necessarily the case. You usually make up the most time on the high speed sections of the circuit. Therefore, you should adjust your setup to optimize tire performance in those high speed areas. This often means more negative camber to optimize the tire contact patch when the suspension is heavily loaded. What you may find is that this leads to greater inside shoulder wear vs. what you are seeing on the outside shoulder since most of your heavy braking is done in a straight line.
I hope this information helps. If you feel this information is worth wile, please feel free to post it on any of the Spec. Miata bulletin boards. Let me know if you have any other questions. Thank you for trying out the RA-1. We'll be doing our best to support you guys. Good luck, and good racing!
Thomas Okihisa
Staff Engineer
Technical Service Department
Toyo Tire (U.S.A.) Corporation [/QUOTE]
| Lowball | 04-07-2005 10:41 PM |
Narcotix - Thanks for finding that and posting it in my thread :D
That is some sweet info!!!!!
That is some sweet info!!!!!
| RoninSTI | 04-08-2005 04:25 AM |
Subscribing as I am ordering my RA-1s at the beginning of next week. I'm mainly going to be using these for autox so it looks like i'm going to go unshaved...yes no? PS sorry for hijack
| WillysPU | 04-08-2005 12:14 PM |
[QUOTE=RoninSTI]Subscribing as I am ordering my RA-1s at the beginning of next week. I'm mainly going to be using these for autox so it looks like i'm going to go unshaved...yes no? PS sorry for hijack[/QUOTE]
I have only used my ra-1's for hpde events and I know that it takes about 2-3 laps on the track for the tires to come up to temp and once they are they are much more sticky. I am not sure how this would work for autox.
Anyone have experience using these for autox?
I have only used my ra-1's for hpde events and I know that it takes about 2-3 laps on the track for the tires to come up to temp and once they are they are much more sticky. I am not sure how this would work for autox.
Anyone have experience using these for autox?
| WRX_Mundi | 04-08-2005 05:22 PM |
I used them on the track once. Great tires there -- much grippier than the RE070s or Azenis (of course).
I have taken mine to 16 autocrosses, 6 of which I got 1st overall PAX and never out of the top 7, so they can get the job done (just local stuff in 4 different regions, but beat a few national trophy winners on V710s and A3S04s). I finally threw mine away this week after 137 autocross runs, 150 miles of track use, 200 street miles, and a bit over a year old. They had just finished getting 1st in PAX and 4th raw time (darn shifter karts :)) in a local event, with one shoulder just beginning to cord (they were all flipped on the rims at some point). Unlike the Hoosier A3S04's which will heat cycle out even before they cord, these don't seem to lose grip. I have first hand experience that these old tires outgripped a set of Hoosiers with 65 runs on them.
(P.S., I'm really not that great at autocross -- I mean this to say that the tires have been fabulous for me for AX, even though you'd be stupid to take them to Nationals if you planned to be competitive. Some people think they're really hard and not useful, but I haven't experienced that at all -- they're about 80% of the way from an Azenis to a Hoosier, and GRM's old test found them to be 70-90% of the way).
The Hoosier A3S04's and Kumho Ecsta V700's are a bit grippier, but it's not night and day -- nothing like the jump from maximum performance street tires to the RA-1s which is literally 2 seconds on a typical autocross course. I mostly used them as backup tires -- what I could run if the autocross tires hadn't arrived or were wearing out or whatever. If you are on a strict budget, you might consider them as they're over 3x less money than a Hoosier once you include wear. Consider Victoracers as well though. For someone who wants the tires for track days or silly-grip summer tires with an occasional autocross, they're also worth considering. But for serious autocross the V710, Hoosier A3S05, or V700's would be what you ought to have.
I ran them on my ESP 2004 STi at 38-41 pounds hot front and about 3 pounds less in back. The pyrometer said that my 39F 36R was about right for my car / alignment settings (pyrometer use for autocross is debatable).
I have taken mine to 16 autocrosses, 6 of which I got 1st overall PAX and never out of the top 7, so they can get the job done (just local stuff in 4 different regions, but beat a few national trophy winners on V710s and A3S04s). I finally threw mine away this week after 137 autocross runs, 150 miles of track use, 200 street miles, and a bit over a year old. They had just finished getting 1st in PAX and 4th raw time (darn shifter karts :)) in a local event, with one shoulder just beginning to cord (they were all flipped on the rims at some point). Unlike the Hoosier A3S04's which will heat cycle out even before they cord, these don't seem to lose grip. I have first hand experience that these old tires outgripped a set of Hoosiers with 65 runs on them.
(P.S., I'm really not that great at autocross -- I mean this to say that the tires have been fabulous for me for AX, even though you'd be stupid to take them to Nationals if you planned to be competitive. Some people think they're really hard and not useful, but I haven't experienced that at all -- they're about 80% of the way from an Azenis to a Hoosier, and GRM's old test found them to be 70-90% of the way).
The Hoosier A3S04's and Kumho Ecsta V700's are a bit grippier, but it's not night and day -- nothing like the jump from maximum performance street tires to the RA-1s which is literally 2 seconds on a typical autocross course. I mostly used them as backup tires -- what I could run if the autocross tires hadn't arrived or were wearing out or whatever. If you are on a strict budget, you might consider them as they're over 3x less money than a Hoosier once you include wear. Consider Victoracers as well though. For someone who wants the tires for track days or silly-grip summer tires with an occasional autocross, they're also worth considering. But for serious autocross the V710, Hoosier A3S05, or V700's would be what you ought to have.
I ran them on my ESP 2004 STi at 38-41 pounds hot front and about 3 pounds less in back. The pyrometer said that my 39F 36R was about right for my car / alignment settings (pyrometer use for autocross is debatable).
| RoninSTI | 04-08-2005 08:36 PM |
Sounds exactly like what I want them for, thanks wrx_mundi
| triguy | 04-09-2005 01:33 AM |
Ride heights
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Lowball - what are your ride heights front and rear measured from center hub to fender lip?
I've found when tracking my wagon on sweepers like Riverside at Buttonwillow that the rear of the wagon is most stable when it's about 1/2 inch lower than the front. I drive 13.9" in front, 13.4" rear.
Can't wait to hear how you like you're set up on the track, especially the new steering rack.
I've found when tracking my wagon on sweepers like Riverside at Buttonwillow that the rear of the wagon is most stable when it's about 1/2 inch lower than the front. I drive 13.9" in front, 13.4" rear.
Can't wait to hear how you like you're set up on the track, especially the new steering rack.
| Lowball | 04-09-2005 02:27 AM |
[QUOTE=triguy]Lowball - what are your ride heights front and rear measured from center hub to fender lip?
I've found when tracking my wagon on sweepers like Riverside at Buttonwillow that the rear of the wagon is most stable when it's about 1/2 inch lower than the front. I drive 13.9" in front, 13.4" rear.
Can't wait to hear how you like you're set up on the track, especially the new steering rack.[/QUOTE]
I'm at 13.5" in front and 12.5" in the rear. So the gap is more but it's because of the fender design. My siderails are even from both the front and rear (about 5.5").
I know from my past setup that the front gap was always higher and that Subaru designed it that way for a reason. I had STi Pink 4-way adjustable struts and STi pink springs w/STi strut tops.
So I don't think it's actually lower in the rear, it would be just even if both fender were the same. If you know what I mean. The car is lower than before. Due to tires and coilovers.
The "rack" is sick!!!! Steering rack is quick to say the least. After I drove an EVO8 at a local Subaru meet I was hooked. It just lets you put the car where you want it much quicker without much steering input.
I've found when tracking my wagon on sweepers like Riverside at Buttonwillow that the rear of the wagon is most stable when it's about 1/2 inch lower than the front. I drive 13.9" in front, 13.4" rear.
Can't wait to hear how you like you're set up on the track, especially the new steering rack.[/QUOTE]
I'm at 13.5" in front and 12.5" in the rear. So the gap is more but it's because of the fender design. My siderails are even from both the front and rear (about 5.5").
I know from my past setup that the front gap was always higher and that Subaru designed it that way for a reason. I had STi Pink 4-way adjustable struts and STi pink springs w/STi strut tops.
So I don't think it's actually lower in the rear, it would be just even if both fender were the same. If you know what I mean. The car is lower than before. Due to tires and coilovers.
The "rack" is sick!!!! Steering rack is quick to say the least. After I drove an EVO8 at a local Subaru meet I was hooked. It just lets you put the car where you want it much quicker without much steering input.
| triguy | 04-09-2005 08:10 PM |
That's low
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Lowball - so how much did the install for the steering rack cost or did you DIY?
You're set up is similar to a blue WRX wagon I ran into at Buttonwillow last month. He had the Toyos RA1s and was riding low with HKS dampers. It was the most tricked out wagon I've seen complete with a JDM roll bar cage, FMIC, Recaro seats, etc. Works for Subyspecialties in the LA basin. Saw him slide off the track on a sweeper, though, in my rear view.
I'm off to Buttonwillow on Friday, May 6, with Speedventures. Trying out a new set Bridgestones RE070s. I liked the PS2s but sidewalls were too soft on the track. Don't know if you make it down this way but it would be great to see your wagon.
You're set up is similar to a blue WRX wagon I ran into at Buttonwillow last month. He had the Toyos RA1s and was riding low with HKS dampers. It was the most tricked out wagon I've seen complete with a JDM roll bar cage, FMIC, Recaro seats, etc. Works for Subyspecialties in the LA basin. Saw him slide off the track on a sweeper, though, in my rear view.
I'm off to Buttonwillow on Friday, May 6, with Speedventures. Trying out a new set Bridgestones RE070s. I liked the PS2s but sidewalls were too soft on the track. Don't know if you make it down this way but it would be great to see your wagon.
| pastorman | 04-09-2005 08:47 PM |
Ra-1
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I have an 04 WRX and I am wondering if anyone could recommend the proper tire size to run on my stock wheels for track days. Right now, I have BBS RGR w/ 225/45/17 Pilot Sports.
Suspension pieces:
Fulcrom coilovers w/ Koni inserts
Front and rear anti-sway bars (IPD)
Front and rear strut tower supports (Alutec)
I have stock wheels from my car and I'd love to know what to put on for track days (Portland International Raceway). I would like to buy ones that would provide not only the grip, but also the same diameter of my 17's so I don't need to mess with my coilovers too much.
Thanks
Suspension pieces:
Fulcrom coilovers w/ Koni inserts
Front and rear anti-sway bars (IPD)
Front and rear strut tower supports (Alutec)
I have stock wheels from my car and I'd love to know what to put on for track days (Portland International Raceway). I would like to buy ones that would provide not only the grip, but also the same diameter of my 17's so I don't need to mess with my coilovers too much.
Thanks
| makofoto | 04-09-2005 09:17 PM |
Realize that RA1's can only be used in AX classes that allow R compounds, ie. you can't used them in STX or STU. RA1's have a 100 wear factor ... Azenis's 200. Anything above 160 is considered a SCCA street tire ...
| Lowball | 04-09-2005 09:41 PM |
[QUOTE=triguy]Lowball - so how much did the install for the steering rack cost or did you DIY?
You're set up is similar to a blue WRX wagon I ran into at Buttonwillow last month. He had the Toyos RA1s and was riding low with HKS dampers. It was the most tricked out wagon I've seen complete with a JDM roll bar cage, FMIC, Recaro seats, etc. Works for Subyspecialties in the LA basin. Saw him slide off the track on a sweeper, though, in my rear view.
I'm off to Buttonwillow on Friday, May 6, with Speedventures. Trying out a new set Bridgestones RE070s. I liked the PS2s but sidewalls were too soft on the track. Don't know if you make it down this way but it would be great to see your wagon.[/QUOTE]
Yeah I saw that thing on "The Wagon Thread". That rollbar was pretty sweet! JDM and I think it's about a grand+shipping I'm sure. I would love to get some Recaro's and a rollbar/cage next if I'm going to keep doing these track days.
Buttonwillow is quite the trek for me...about 4hrs. We went down year before last with the i-club guys for the exclusive Subaru day and had a blast. Gary Sheehan was there shreadin' the track all up! :devil: Don't know that I will take the hike again unless it's a Suby day. Laguna is more than likely the place I would go...which is still pretty far. I have Thunderhill and Sears which are all within 1.5hrs drive.
Thanks for the props on the wag. I love it! I have some video I can link to this page or e-mail to you if you want.
I'm sorry you didn't care for the PS2's. I felt they worked great for me at the track. They didn't feel like the sidewalls were super soft. I still have them for daily and for any wet track days that may come up. They were super quiet and felt pretty nice IMO.
You're set up is similar to a blue WRX wagon I ran into at Buttonwillow last month. He had the Toyos RA1s and was riding low with HKS dampers. It was the most tricked out wagon I've seen complete with a JDM roll bar cage, FMIC, Recaro seats, etc. Works for Subyspecialties in the LA basin. Saw him slide off the track on a sweeper, though, in my rear view.
I'm off to Buttonwillow on Friday, May 6, with Speedventures. Trying out a new set Bridgestones RE070s. I liked the PS2s but sidewalls were too soft on the track. Don't know if you make it down this way but it would be great to see your wagon.[/QUOTE]
Yeah I saw that thing on "The Wagon Thread". That rollbar was pretty sweet! JDM and I think it's about a grand+shipping I'm sure. I would love to get some Recaro's and a rollbar/cage next if I'm going to keep doing these track days.
Buttonwillow is quite the trek for me...about 4hrs. We went down year before last with the i-club guys for the exclusive Subaru day and had a blast. Gary Sheehan was there shreadin' the track all up! :devil: Don't know that I will take the hike again unless it's a Suby day. Laguna is more than likely the place I would go...which is still pretty far. I have Thunderhill and Sears which are all within 1.5hrs drive.
Thanks for the props on the wag. I love it! I have some video I can link to this page or e-mail to you if you want.
I'm sorry you didn't care for the PS2's. I felt they worked great for me at the track. They didn't feel like the sidewalls were super soft. I still have them for daily and for any wet track days that may come up. They were super quiet and felt pretty nice IMO.
| triguy | 04-10-2005 12:03 AM |
Pastorman - how much tire your sedan can handle depends on width of your rims. If they're 7.5" wide or below, typically 225s are the way to go. Some guys stretch it with 235s but manufacturers don't recommend it. If you have 8" rims you can up to 235s and maybe 245s depending on the offset of your rims and if you're willing to have your rear fenders rolled.
You'll get a lot of grip with 225s if you get sticky street tires like the Kumho MX, Falken Azenis, Michelin PS2, Bridgestone S03, BFGoodrich KDs or KDWs.
You'll get a lot of grip with 225s if you get sticky street tires like the Kumho MX, Falken Azenis, Michelin PS2, Bridgestone S03, BFGoodrich KDs or KDWs.
| makofoto | 04-10-2005 11:56 AM |
8.5"X 17" Rota Slipstreams are the way to go if you want to use 235 or 245 tires. :devil:
[img]http://images9.fotki.com/v165/photos/4/43793/1961534/MakoFat-vi.jpg[/img]
I know you are talking about RA1's for track days ... most people feel the RA1's take to long to warm up for auto cross. But Randy Chase, a former National AX Champ, who is now campaigning a Lotus Elise in Super Stock ... says that RA1's can be good for auto cross, he likes them, perhaps especially on a heavier car like the WRX/STI. It's just that there are other R compounds that are much sticker. But as a beginner R tire ... it's probably an economical way to go ... and it's available in that great 235/40/17 size.
[img]http://images9.fotki.com/v165/photos/4/43793/1961534/MakoFat-vi.jpg[/img]
I know you are talking about RA1's for track days ... most people feel the RA1's take to long to warm up for auto cross. But Randy Chase, a former National AX Champ, who is now campaigning a Lotus Elise in Super Stock ... says that RA1's can be good for auto cross, he likes them, perhaps especially on a heavier car like the WRX/STI. It's just that there are other R compounds that are much sticker. But as a beginner R tire ... it's probably an economical way to go ... and it's available in that great 235/40/17 size.
| Lowball | 04-10-2005 12:43 PM |
[QUOTE=triguy]Lowball - so how much did the install for the steering rack cost or did you DIY?
[/QUOTE]
I got the rack from a vender here on NASIOC. [URL=http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=715406]Aerosim Research Ltd.[/URL] The install was 3-bills. I wanted to DIY but didn't feel I had the time or the right tools. The shop had done one before so they bumped the price on me compaired to the other guy. But I was a happy camper regardless :D It feels really good with the Whiteline steering rack bushings too. Snaps right back into place and keeps a tight line.
[/QUOTE]
I got the rack from a vender here on NASIOC. [URL=http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=715406]Aerosim Research Ltd.[/URL] The install was 3-bills. I wanted to DIY but didn't feel I had the time or the right tools. The shop had done one before so they bumped the price on me compaired to the other guy. But I was a happy camper regardless :D It feels really good with the Whiteline steering rack bushings too. Snaps right back into place and keeps a tight line.
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