| Opie | 02-12-2004 09:35 AM |
Toyota enters NASCAR with a strong showing
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Toyota's first ever attempt to qualify for a NASCAR race in the truck series ended up with all 4 Toyota entries in the top 12 for the opening race of the season this Friday night at Daytona International Speedway. The fastest Toyota was driven by Travis Kvapil and qualified in 3rd position with an average speed of 182.830mph only -0.218 behind the leader.
Lineup: [url]http://www.nascar.com/races/truck/2004/1/data/lineup.html[/url]
Story:
[url]http://www.nascar.com/2004/news/headlines/truck/02/11/tcook_pole/index.html[/url]
It's gonna be interesting with a foreign manufacturer in the series, even more interesting when they enter the Nextel Cup series in 2006. I wonder if we'll see Nissan step up with their new Nissan Titan pickup....afterall it's built in the U.S.A. too.
Lineup: [url]http://www.nascar.com/races/truck/2004/1/data/lineup.html[/url]
Story:
[url]http://www.nascar.com/2004/news/headlines/truck/02/11/tcook_pole/index.html[/url]
It's gonna be interesting with a foreign manufacturer in the series, even more interesting when they enter the Nextel Cup series in 2006. I wonder if we'll see Nissan step up with their new Nissan Titan pickup....afterall it's built in the U.S.A. too.
| MulletSlayer | 02-12-2004 09:57 AM |
I really hate anything to do with Nascar, but I might watch that race. Isn't it on Friday night?
I would love to see all the Good ol'boys get all worked up if Toyota does well.
I would love to see all the Good ol'boys get all worked up if Toyota does well.
| Chromer | 02-12-2004 10:17 AM |
That is an amazing accompishment, even if none of them finish.
To qualify ALL their trucks in the first event they've ever tried to enter is huge.
To have all but 1 in the top half of the field is simply amazing. TRD must be delighted.
To qualify ALL their trucks in the first event they've ever tried to enter is huge.
To have all but 1 in the top half of the field is simply amazing. TRD must be delighted.
| WRXMaster | 02-12-2004 10:37 AM |
too bad they had to cheat in rally :mad:
| afpdl | 02-12-2004 11:31 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by WRXMaster[/i]
[B] too bad they had to cheat in rally :mad: [/B][/QUOTE] You should probably change that to too bad they got caught cheating. Im sure other manufacuters were cheating at that time and probably currently they just havent been caught....yet.
[B] too bad they had to cheat in rally :mad: [/B][/QUOTE] You should probably change that to too bad they got caught cheating. Im sure other manufacuters were cheating at that time and probably currently they just havent been caught....yet.
| zoomfactor | 02-12-2004 01:21 PM |
Well I'm going to "out" myself
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I must admit that I actually tuned into Speeds coverage of the Truck qualifying. I was more than a little interested in how the Toyota's would do.
Maybe instead of NASCAR bashing we could just convert them to road racing
JD - still a road race fan at heart...:banana:
Maybe instead of NASCAR bashing we could just convert them to road racing
JD - still a road race fan at heart...:banana:
| Chromer | 02-12-2004 02:54 PM |
Re: Well I'm going to "out" myself
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[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by zoomfactor [/i]
[B]Maybe instead of NASCAR bashing we could just convert them to road racing[/B][/QUOTE]
One step at a time. One step at a time...
Getting the cars' mechanicals to *remotely* resemble the production vehicle would be a nice step too.
[B]Maybe instead of NASCAR bashing we could just convert them to road racing[/B][/QUOTE]
One step at a time. One step at a time...
Getting the cars' mechanicals to *remotely* resemble the production vehicle would be a nice step too.
| Opie | 02-12-2004 02:55 PM |
Re: Well I'm going to "out" myself
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[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by zoomfactor [/i]
[B]Maybe instead of NASCAR bashing we could just convert them to road racing
JD - still a road race fan at heart...:banana: [/B][/QUOTE]
I'm all for that, give them a few ovals; Daytona, Talledega, Bristol, Darligton...and them make the remaining 28 or so races all on road courses, that would rule!
[B]Maybe instead of NASCAR bashing we could just convert them to road racing
JD - still a road race fan at heart...:banana: [/B][/QUOTE]
I'm all for that, give them a few ovals; Daytona, Talledega, Bristol, Darligton...and them make the remaining 28 or so races all on road courses, that would rule!
| jmott | 02-12-2004 02:58 PM |
Id like to see a racing series like this:
12 races a year
2 ovals (one super speedway, one short track)
1 dirt short oval
3 'rally' type courses
6 road courses, 3 of which should be city street type courses like monaco, the others your standard super smooth dedicated road course.
and force teams to use the same car for all races.
=)
12 races a year
2 ovals (one super speedway, one short track)
1 dirt short oval
3 'rally' type courses
6 road courses, 3 of which should be city street type courses like monaco, the others your standard super smooth dedicated road course.
and force teams to use the same car for all races.
=)
| TV3WRX | 02-12-2004 08:14 PM |
I have to admit.....
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...even though I have been a NASCAR hater for about the last 15 yrs, I watched the Truck practice and qualifying with GREAT interest, as I was so anxious to see Toyota do well. They had been making steady progress since the first practice where they were either sandbagging or just not there yet on hp. So, it was pretty fun yesterday when Kvapil all of a sudden did that fast lap to qualify 3rd, inside second row. Not to mention the other 3 Toyos in the top 12. Great showing.
It's really really funny to go to the various NASCAR boards right now and see all the anti-Toyota stuff going on. "Nascar only for Americans......blah....remember pearl harbor.....japs cant build fast trucks....blah.....Ford rules.....blah blah blah. Hysterical. I'm so embarrassed for them and all that pea-brained throw-back nationalism.
The fact is, the rules are so tight on the series specs, and pushrod V8 race motors are so old-tech and well known, that any manufacturer with money and good management could come in and do just as Toyota has. You just have to hire the right folks as they have. Just the same, I love seeing the arrogant "big three" folks freak out completely over this, so hats off to Toyota. I'll be rooting them on all year for sure. Bring on Nissan, too.:cool:
It's really really funny to go to the various NASCAR boards right now and see all the anti-Toyota stuff going on. "Nascar only for Americans......blah....remember pearl harbor.....japs cant build fast trucks....blah.....Ford rules.....blah blah blah. Hysterical. I'm so embarrassed for them and all that pea-brained throw-back nationalism.
The fact is, the rules are so tight on the series specs, and pushrod V8 race motors are so old-tech and well known, that any manufacturer with money and good management could come in and do just as Toyota has. You just have to hire the right folks as they have. Just the same, I love seeing the arrogant "big three" folks freak out completely over this, so hats off to Toyota. I'll be rooting them on all year for sure. Bring on Nissan, too.:cool:
| Opie | 02-12-2004 08:34 PM |
Re: I have to admit.....
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[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by TV3WRX [/i]
[B] Bring on Nissan, too.:cool: [/B][/QUOTE]
:D Since GM owns part of Subaru now you think we could throw a GM V8 in a Baja and get Subaru into Nascar? :lol:
[B] Bring on Nissan, too.:cool: [/B][/QUOTE]
:D Since GM owns part of Subaru now you think we could throw a GM V8 in a Baja and get Subaru into Nascar? :lol:
| TV3WRX | 02-12-2004 09:26 PM |
Absolutely
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Oh what I would give to see THAT.:disco:
Could someone please give us a photochop idea of what that might look like?:lol:
Please?
Just widen it and lower it, add the requisite "aereo package", cab roll cage extentions to the bed, cover the bed, add window nets and big rear downforce spoiler, standard issue series wheels, and a NASIOC sponsor/decal package, and we're there. We can call it the NASCARU. OR NECKARU, or um......whatever. BAHASCAR? OK, I should stop now.:alien:
Could someone please give us a photochop idea of what that might look like?:lol:
Please?
Just widen it and lower it, add the requisite "aereo package", cab roll cage extentions to the bed, cover the bed, add window nets and big rear downforce spoiler, standard issue series wheels, and a NASIOC sponsor/decal package, and we're there. We can call it the NASCARU. OR NECKARU, or um......whatever. BAHASCAR? OK, I should stop now.:alien:
| mofugga | 02-12-2004 10:05 PM |
i may turn this on tomorrow night to see the redneck's freak out that a japanese V8 is superior to a domestic V8 in their first year in nascar :devil:
| CoiloverKid | 02-13-2004 12:37 AM |
[IMG]http://www.nascar.com/2004/news/headlines/truck/01/12/tmusgrave_testing/trucks_xl.jpg[/IMG]
they're coming for you,cletus!!
they're coming for you,cletus!!
| jmott | 02-13-2004 12:46 AM |
Re: I have to admit.....
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UPDATE:
overhead cam tech is older than pushrod tech.
USA sackriding is no worse than import sackriding
=)
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by TV3WRX [/i]
[B]...even though I have been a NASCAR hater for about the last 15 yrs, I watched the Truck practice and qualifying with GREAT interest, as I was so anxious to see Toyota do well. They had been making steady progress since the first practice where they were either sandbagging or just not there yet on hp. So, it was pretty fun yesterday when Kvapil all of a sudden did that fast lap to qualify 3rd, inside second row. Not to mention the other 3 Toyos in the top 12. Great showing.
It's really really funny to go to the various NASCAR boards right now and see all the anti-Toyota stuff going on. "Nascar only for Americans......blah....remember pearl harbor.....japs cant build fast trucks....blah.....Ford rules.....blah blah blah. Hysterical. I'm so embarrassed for them and all that pea-brained throw-back nationalism.
The fact is, the rules are so tight on the series specs, and pushrod V8 race motors are so old-tech and well known, that any manufacturer with money and good management could come in and do just as Toyota has. You just have to hire the right folks as they have. Just the same, I love seeing the arrogant "big three" folks freak out completely over this, so hats off to Toyota. I'll be rooting them on all year for sure. Bring on Nissan, too.:cool: [/B][/QUOTE]
overhead cam tech is older than pushrod tech.
USA sackriding is no worse than import sackriding
=)
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by TV3WRX [/i]
[B]...even though I have been a NASCAR hater for about the last 15 yrs, I watched the Truck practice and qualifying with GREAT interest, as I was so anxious to see Toyota do well. They had been making steady progress since the first practice where they were either sandbagging or just not there yet on hp. So, it was pretty fun yesterday when Kvapil all of a sudden did that fast lap to qualify 3rd, inside second row. Not to mention the other 3 Toyos in the top 12. Great showing.
It's really really funny to go to the various NASCAR boards right now and see all the anti-Toyota stuff going on. "Nascar only for Americans......blah....remember pearl harbor.....japs cant build fast trucks....blah.....Ford rules.....blah blah blah. Hysterical. I'm so embarrassed for them and all that pea-brained throw-back nationalism.
The fact is, the rules are so tight on the series specs, and pushrod V8 race motors are so old-tech and well known, that any manufacturer with money and good management could come in and do just as Toyota has. You just have to hire the right folks as they have. Just the same, I love seeing the arrogant "big three" folks freak out completely over this, so hats off to Toyota. I'll be rooting them on all year for sure. Bring on Nissan, too.:cool: [/B][/QUOTE]
| TV3WRX | 02-13-2004 05:43 AM |
That may be.....
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Thanks for the history lesson Mr. Z06, I didnt mean to hurt your feelings. It's a nice car you have.
To rephrase for you, building carb'd pushrod V8 Nascar-style race motors is an old and well understood game at this point, and is therefore old hat and low tech.....nothing new about it, so there is no engine technology advantage for the big three. There are many many guys/shops in the US alone who have the expertise to build them to series spec and to within 5 hp of each other. Not to mention Australia or Canada. The point is, any one of those folks could be hired to do it for any new manufacturer that wanted in, and wanted to cast their own. Money is the only barrier, there is no technology mystery, not that you could convince yer average NASCAR fan of that. You want a KIA or Hyundai or Suzuki or Skoda Carb'd V8 Nascar-spec race motor? It can be had. Not many companies in the rest of the world interested in pushrod engine development, though; Too much weight/size and gas consumption required to get a good hp numbers. Like I said, old tech. Toyota was smart to do it though, because they know that to sell big trucks in the USA and to rival Ford, they gotta have big motors and race em on ovals, to impress Cletus.
Any sackriding that includes right turns, is better than sackriding with only left turns, where-ever it is done and with whichever brand of sack, from whichever country of origin.
:)
To rephrase for you, building carb'd pushrod V8 Nascar-style race motors is an old and well understood game at this point, and is therefore old hat and low tech.....nothing new about it, so there is no engine technology advantage for the big three. There are many many guys/shops in the US alone who have the expertise to build them to series spec and to within 5 hp of each other. Not to mention Australia or Canada. The point is, any one of those folks could be hired to do it for any new manufacturer that wanted in, and wanted to cast their own. Money is the only barrier, there is no technology mystery, not that you could convince yer average NASCAR fan of that. You want a KIA or Hyundai or Suzuki or Skoda Carb'd V8 Nascar-spec race motor? It can be had. Not many companies in the rest of the world interested in pushrod engine development, though; Too much weight/size and gas consumption required to get a good hp numbers. Like I said, old tech. Toyota was smart to do it though, because they know that to sell big trucks in the USA and to rival Ford, they gotta have big motors and race em on ovals, to impress Cletus.
Any sackriding that includes right turns, is better than sackriding with only left turns, where-ever it is done and with whichever brand of sack, from whichever country of origin.
:)
| Protege Menace | 02-13-2004 05:53 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by afpdl [/i]
[B]You should probably change that to too bad they got caught cheating. Im sure other manufacuters were cheating at that time and probably currently they just havent been caught....yet. [/B][/QUOTE]
what now? never heard of this
[B]You should probably change that to too bad they got caught cheating. Im sure other manufacuters were cheating at that time and probably currently they just havent been caught....yet. [/B][/QUOTE]
what now? never heard of this
| afpdl | 02-13-2004 06:21 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Protege Menace[/i]
[B] what now? never heard of this [/B][/QUOTE]
Its competition someone is always pushing the limits of the rules somewhere. I cant think of any competitive event that wouldnt have a cheater somewhere in it.
[B] what now? never heard of this [/B][/QUOTE]
Its competition someone is always pushing the limits of the rules somewhere. I cant think of any competitive event that wouldnt have a cheater somewhere in it.
| Big C | 02-13-2004 07:06 AM |
Sorry, as a Tundra owner I can't really get too excited about a tube frame, pushrod V8 powered race car that was re-skinned to look something vaugely like the truck I own. Nevermind that I can't understand the attraction to racing "trucks" (which are just reskinned racecars) to begin with. Not a huge suprise that they are succeeding already given that they aren't really doing anything new.....
| TimStevens | 02-13-2004 07:16 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Big C[/i]
[B] Not a huge suprise that they are succeeding already given that they aren't really doing anything new..... [/B][/QUOTE]
This is ALL new for Toyota. The technology may be rather outdated as far as consumer vehicles go, but that's exactly why Toyota is new to this.
I'd like to tune in tonight to watch the race, but we'll see whether the GF will allow that during her birthday party :)
[B] Not a huge suprise that they are succeeding already given that they aren't really doing anything new..... [/B][/QUOTE]
This is ALL new for Toyota. The technology may be rather outdated as far as consumer vehicles go, but that's exactly why Toyota is new to this.
I'd like to tune in tonight to watch the race, but we'll see whether the GF will allow that during her birthday party :)
| Sparks | 02-13-2004 08:13 AM |
The best part is the only thing Toyota is the body and motor. Everything else is the same.
| TimStevens | 02-13-2004 08:14 AM |
Found some... uhh... entertaining threads on NASCAR boards:
[url]http://forums.racingone.com/messageview.cfm?catid=2&threadid=49811&highlight_key=y&keyword1=toyota[/url]
[url]http://forums.racingone.com/messageview.cfm?catid=2&threadid=49812&highlight_key=y&keyword1=toyota[/url]
[url]http://insider.speedtv.com/viewtopic.php?t=27721[/url]
[url]http://www.racinhistory.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=41[/url]
All I can say is :rolleyes:
[url]http://forums.racingone.com/messageview.cfm?catid=2&threadid=49811&highlight_key=y&keyword1=toyota[/url]
[url]http://forums.racingone.com/messageview.cfm?catid=2&threadid=49812&highlight_key=y&keyword1=toyota[/url]
[url]http://insider.speedtv.com/viewtopic.php?t=27721[/url]
[url]http://www.racinhistory.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=41[/url]
All I can say is :rolleyes:
| Opie | 02-13-2004 08:33 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Sparks [/i]
[B]The best part is the only thing Toyota is the body and motor. Everything else is the same. [/B][/QUOTE]
And Toyota builds their own cast iron blocks, a feat in itself considering all of Toyota's recent blocks were aluminum. They opened a new, specialized TRD facility just to produce these blocks! Cast-Iron V8 blocks that can spin up to 9,000 rpm putting out 600-800 HP....pretty cool if you ask me. Outdated...maybe, but cool none-the-less.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by TimStevens [/i]
[B]Found some... uhh... entertaining threads on NASCAR boards:
.....
All I can say is [/B][/QUOTE]
:( Unfortunately ignorance and bigotry still exists. Don't let the views of a few vocal idiots distort what the majority think is right and wrong.
[B]The best part is the only thing Toyota is the body and motor. Everything else is the same. [/B][/QUOTE]
And Toyota builds their own cast iron blocks, a feat in itself considering all of Toyota's recent blocks were aluminum. They opened a new, specialized TRD facility just to produce these blocks! Cast-Iron V8 blocks that can spin up to 9,000 rpm putting out 600-800 HP....pretty cool if you ask me. Outdated...maybe, but cool none-the-less.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by TimStevens [/i]
[B]Found some... uhh... entertaining threads on NASCAR boards:
.....
All I can say is [/B][/QUOTE]
:( Unfortunately ignorance and bigotry still exists. Don't let the views of a few vocal idiots distort what the majority think is right and wrong.
| TimStevens | 02-13-2004 08:35 AM |
Yeah, thankfully most of the people who started those threads were put in their place... but a disappointingly large number of people agreed too...
| DonA | 02-13-2004 09:08 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Big C[/i]
[B] Sorry, as a Tundra owner I can't really get too excited about a tube frame, pushrod V8 powered race car that was re-skinned to look something vaugely like the truck I own. Nevermind that I can't understand the attraction to racing "trucks" (which are just reskinned racecars) to begin with. Not a huge suprise that they are succeeding already given that they aren't really doing anything new..... [/B][/QUOTE]
I agree! The rules state that the body from the base of the windscreen forward is up to manufacturer and base of the windscreen rearward must be identical between all brands
So develop a nose in the wind tunnel and bolt it on the Spec chassis and it�s a Tundra race truck!
:rolleyes:
What's next a Camry in the Nextel Cup series running a V8
[B] Sorry, as a Tundra owner I can't really get too excited about a tube frame, pushrod V8 powered race car that was re-skinned to look something vaugely like the truck I own. Nevermind that I can't understand the attraction to racing "trucks" (which are just reskinned racecars) to begin with. Not a huge suprise that they are succeeding already given that they aren't really doing anything new..... [/B][/QUOTE]
I agree! The rules state that the body from the base of the windscreen forward is up to manufacturer and base of the windscreen rearward must be identical between all brands
So develop a nose in the wind tunnel and bolt it on the Spec chassis and it�s a Tundra race truck!
:rolleyes:
What's next a Camry in the Nextel Cup series running a V8
| Opie | 02-13-2004 09:46 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DonA [/i]
[B]I agree! The rules state that the body from the base of the windscreen forward is up to manufacturer and base of the windscreen rearward must be identical between all brands][/QUOTE]
Not exactly identical, the bodies from the base of the windscreen rearward must all fit the same template +/- a half inch or so. Similar to the rules in just about any other racing series to create "equal" competition.
In my opinion it should go back to the "run what ya brung ;)" era. Cars would be required to be factory bodied (with roll cages and such for safety) and be required to run any motor limited up to the same size, fuel delivery type and displacement as is availible to the public.
[QUOTE][B]What's next a Camry in the Nextel Cup series running a V8 [/B][/QUOTE]
Yep, in 2006 :D
[B]I agree! The rules state that the body from the base of the windscreen forward is up to manufacturer and base of the windscreen rearward must be identical between all brands][/QUOTE]
Not exactly identical, the bodies from the base of the windscreen rearward must all fit the same template +/- a half inch or so. Similar to the rules in just about any other racing series to create "equal" competition.
In my opinion it should go back to the "run what ya brung ;)" era. Cars would be required to be factory bodied (with roll cages and such for safety) and be required to run any motor limited up to the same size, fuel delivery type and displacement as is availible to the public.
[QUOTE][B]What's next a Camry in the Nextel Cup series running a V8 [/B][/QUOTE]
Yep, in 2006 :D
| TV3WRX | 02-13-2004 10:21 AM |
I cant wait for the Nextel Camry, either
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That'll be round two of the big three freak-out. Woohoo!
Tim, those threads over at the NASCAR forums are positively scary scary stuff. What's even scarier is that there really are a LOT of people in this country that think that way. That's why I love it when they get their asses kicked, figuratively speaking. And one of the reasons I'm so anti big-three is that each of those companies is well know to intentionally play on all that isolationist mentality crap when marketing to the domestic market rank and file. The more successful they are at it, the less they actually have to build a good competitive product. In a way they know who they can easily cheat. The only thing that has ever happened to make them think twice about it, is the influx of Japanese cars into this market. German cars too. Without that they'd still be trying to sell us Granadas and K cars.
Tim, those threads over at the NASCAR forums are positively scary scary stuff. What's even scarier is that there really are a LOT of people in this country that think that way. That's why I love it when they get their asses kicked, figuratively speaking. And one of the reasons I'm so anti big-three is that each of those companies is well know to intentionally play on all that isolationist mentality crap when marketing to the domestic market rank and file. The more successful they are at it, the less they actually have to build a good competitive product. In a way they know who they can easily cheat. The only thing that has ever happened to make them think twice about it, is the influx of Japanese cars into this market. German cars too. Without that they'd still be trying to sell us Granadas and K cars.
| jmott | 02-13-2004 11:16 AM |
Re: That may be.....
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actualy I don't have a z06 any more.
I have a DOHC engined car at the moment.
if nascar had a spec DOHC engine it would be just as easy to duplicate as a pushrod engine I bet.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by TV3WRX [/i]
[B]Thanks for the history lesson Mr. Z06, I didnt mean to hurt your feelings. It's a nice car you have.
To rephrase for you, building carb'd pushrod V8 Nascar-style race motors is an old and well understood game at this point, and is therefore old hat and low tech.....nothing new about it, so there is no engine technology advantage for the big three. There are many many guys/shops in the US alone who have the expertise to build them to series spec and to within 5 hp of each other. Not to mention Australia or Canada. The point is, any one of those folks could be hired to do it for any new manufacturer that wanted in, and wanted to cast their own. Money is the only barrier, there is no technology mystery, not that you could convince yer average NASCAR fan of that. You want a KIA or Hyundai or Suzuki or Skoda Carb'd V8 Nascar-spec race motor? It can be had. Not many companies in the rest of the world interested in pushrod engine development, though; Too much weight/size and gas consumption required to get a good hp numbers. Like I said, old tech. Toyota was smart to do it though, because they know that to sell big trucks in the USA and to rival Ford, they gotta have big motors and race em on ovals, to impress Cletus.
Any sackriding that includes right turns, is better than sackriding with only left turns, where-ever it is done and with whichever brand of sack, from whichever country of origin.
:) [/B][/QUOTE]
I have a DOHC engined car at the moment.
if nascar had a spec DOHC engine it would be just as easy to duplicate as a pushrod engine I bet.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by TV3WRX [/i]
[B]Thanks for the history lesson Mr. Z06, I didnt mean to hurt your feelings. It's a nice car you have.
To rephrase for you, building carb'd pushrod V8 Nascar-style race motors is an old and well understood game at this point, and is therefore old hat and low tech.....nothing new about it, so there is no engine technology advantage for the big three. There are many many guys/shops in the US alone who have the expertise to build them to series spec and to within 5 hp of each other. Not to mention Australia or Canada. The point is, any one of those folks could be hired to do it for any new manufacturer that wanted in, and wanted to cast their own. Money is the only barrier, there is no technology mystery, not that you could convince yer average NASCAR fan of that. You want a KIA or Hyundai or Suzuki or Skoda Carb'd V8 Nascar-spec race motor? It can be had. Not many companies in the rest of the world interested in pushrod engine development, though; Too much weight/size and gas consumption required to get a good hp numbers. Like I said, old tech. Toyota was smart to do it though, because they know that to sell big trucks in the USA and to rival Ford, they gotta have big motors and race em on ovals, to impress Cletus.
Any sackriding that includes right turns, is better than sackriding with only left turns, where-ever it is done and with whichever brand of sack, from whichever country of origin.
:) [/B][/QUOTE]
| TheMirror | 02-13-2004 11:37 AM |
Re: That may be.....
�
�
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by TV3WRX [/i]
[B] so there is no engine technology advantage for the big three. There are many many guys/shops in the US alone who have the expertise to build them to series spec and to within 5 hp of each other. Not to mention Australia or Canada. The point is, any one of those folks could be hired to do it for any new manufacturer that wanted in, and wanted to cast their own.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Ah, respectfully disagree. Building Busch series and (cough) 'NEXTEL' cup engines is expensive and difficult. It can be done by a regular race engine builder, just don't expect to run anywhere near up front. Without a full tilt 24/7 R&D program, perfectionist manufacturing techniques, constant improvements, etc. you're fading back to the pack. No way even an experienced engine builder could build a 'Cup' engine to within 5 hp, and make it last more than a handful of laps anyway. Engine building is top science in top level NASCAR just like it is in any other big series. Certainly they don't have all the computer stuff and telemetry, but they're working around the clock to unlock little secrets in those engines. After all, Roush Racing and Robert Yates racing were so concerned about their lack of power this year that they actually teamed up their engine programs to help each other out! Unheard of.
-Mirror
[B] so there is no engine technology advantage for the big three. There are many many guys/shops in the US alone who have the expertise to build them to series spec and to within 5 hp of each other. Not to mention Australia or Canada. The point is, any one of those folks could be hired to do it for any new manufacturer that wanted in, and wanted to cast their own.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Ah, respectfully disagree. Building Busch series and (cough) 'NEXTEL' cup engines is expensive and difficult. It can be done by a regular race engine builder, just don't expect to run anywhere near up front. Without a full tilt 24/7 R&D program, perfectionist manufacturing techniques, constant improvements, etc. you're fading back to the pack. No way even an experienced engine builder could build a 'Cup' engine to within 5 hp, and make it last more than a handful of laps anyway. Engine building is top science in top level NASCAR just like it is in any other big series. Certainly they don't have all the computer stuff and telemetry, but they're working around the clock to unlock little secrets in those engines. After all, Roush Racing and Robert Yates racing were so concerned about their lack of power this year that they actually teamed up their engine programs to help each other out! Unheard of.
-Mirror
| TheMirror | 02-13-2004 11:40 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Opie [/i]
[B]And Toyota builds their own cast iron blocks, a feat in itself considering all of Toyota's recent blocks were aluminum. [/B][/QUOTE]
Actually, all 4.7L V-8 Toyota truck blocks are cast iron with aluminum heads. Of course, that block has little or nothing to do with the NASCAR block, but I feel like splitting hairs this morning. :D
Cheers,
-Mirror
[B]And Toyota builds their own cast iron blocks, a feat in itself considering all of Toyota's recent blocks were aluminum. [/B][/QUOTE]
Actually, all 4.7L V-8 Toyota truck blocks are cast iron with aluminum heads. Of course, that block has little or nothing to do with the NASCAR block, but I feel like splitting hairs this morning. :D
Cheers,
-Mirror
| TV3WRX | 02-13-2004 12:22 PM |
Roush and Yates
�
�
.....teamed up to share resources, to lower their costs, to make more money. But they are never going to actually say that publicly.
Engines: I think you are giving them too much credit. The spec rules of the series are very very tight, and engine development happens within those limitations, so there are not a lot of unknowns at this point. Some tricks and secrets yes, but it's not like building an F16. The real point was, there are more than enough competent NASCAR engine guys around for hire, and any brand who wants to come in could do it, even though it is expensive for initial tooling and testing. Therfore, there is no advantage for the big three, despite the common thinking out in fan-land. So, it should not be that much of a shock for anti-Toyota folks to learn that the Japanese can do race trucks in a year just as well as the big three after 50 years of it.
Engines: I think you are giving them too much credit. The spec rules of the series are very very tight, and engine development happens within those limitations, so there are not a lot of unknowns at this point. Some tricks and secrets yes, but it's not like building an F16. The real point was, there are more than enough competent NASCAR engine guys around for hire, and any brand who wants to come in could do it, even though it is expensive for initial tooling and testing. Therfore, there is no advantage for the big three, despite the common thinking out in fan-land. So, it should not be that much of a shock for anti-Toyota folks to learn that the Japanese can do race trucks in a year just as well as the big three after 50 years of it.
| TheMirror | 02-13-2004 12:40 PM |
Again, I must respectfully disagree. You can't just jump into 'Cup racing with even an experienced engine builder and expect to run anywhere near up front....not to mention reliably. Take Dodge for example; they broke into NASCAR in 1996 in the truck series with the eventual goal of tackling Winston Cup.....which they did in 2001. Dodge won only one race in Winston Cup in 2001, late in the season at Lowe's.
It takes a long time for any engine program to take a new engine (Mopar in this case) and make it not only powerful, but reliable as well. That's why Dodge started out in Trucks for several years, and why Toyota is doing the same. Its a better development series with less aggressive engine rules.
Now, if you take an established engine package and throw an experienced engine builder at it, you can get closer but still won't be competitive without a vigorous R&D program and lots of money. Different teams are constantly going one up on each other for power, due to their frenetic engine development programs. Tony Stewart was talking this week about how they were really behind on engine power, so they concentrated really hard on handling. This is 2002's champ and he ran around in the 30th fastest range all week until surprising himself with that good 125 run.
Roush and Yates have been fierce competitors for years. Considering that Roush racing won the cup last year, there's no way they'd give anything away to their competitors unless there was a dire need. The Roush/Yates teamup has raised eyebrows all over the NASCAR garage.
Cheers,
-Mirror
It takes a long time for any engine program to take a new engine (Mopar in this case) and make it not only powerful, but reliable as well. That's why Dodge started out in Trucks for several years, and why Toyota is doing the same. Its a better development series with less aggressive engine rules.
Now, if you take an established engine package and throw an experienced engine builder at it, you can get closer but still won't be competitive without a vigorous R&D program and lots of money. Different teams are constantly going one up on each other for power, due to their frenetic engine development programs. Tony Stewart was talking this week about how they were really behind on engine power, so they concentrated really hard on handling. This is 2002's champ and he ran around in the 30th fastest range all week until surprising himself with that good 125 run.
Roush and Yates have been fierce competitors for years. Considering that Roush racing won the cup last year, there's no way they'd give anything away to their competitors unless there was a dire need. The Roush/Yates teamup has raised eyebrows all over the NASCAR garage.
Cheers,
-Mirror
| Doughboy | 02-13-2004 12:51 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by TimStevens [/i]
[B]Found some... uhh... entertaining threads on NASCAR boards:
[url]http://forums.racingone.com/messageview.cfm?catid=2&threadid=49811&highlight_key=y&keyword1=toyota[/url]
[url]http://forums.racingone.com/messageview.cfm?catid=2&threadid=49812&highlight_key=y&keyword1=toyota[/url]
[url]http://insider.speedtv.com/viewtopic.php?t=27721[/url]
[url]http://www.racinhistory.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=41[/url]
All I can say is :rolleyes: [/B][/QUOTE]
dude, you have no idea. my great-grandma lived through the japanese invasion of china (we're chinese). if you even mention japan, she gets into a riot. there is still some deep (and founded) resentment towards japan.
not saying it's right or wrong, but i do feel it's justified if they (the chinese) had to live through what the history books are telling us.
db
[B]Found some... uhh... entertaining threads on NASCAR boards:
[url]http://forums.racingone.com/messageview.cfm?catid=2&threadid=49811&highlight_key=y&keyword1=toyota[/url]
[url]http://forums.racingone.com/messageview.cfm?catid=2&threadid=49812&highlight_key=y&keyword1=toyota[/url]
[url]http://insider.speedtv.com/viewtopic.php?t=27721[/url]
[url]http://www.racinhistory.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=41[/url]
All I can say is :rolleyes: [/B][/QUOTE]
dude, you have no idea. my great-grandma lived through the japanese invasion of china (we're chinese). if you even mention japan, she gets into a riot. there is still some deep (and founded) resentment towards japan.
not saying it's right or wrong, but i do feel it's justified if they (the chinese) had to live through what the history books are telling us.
db
| TimStevens | 02-13-2004 01:07 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Doughboy[/i]
[B] not saying it's right or wrong, but i do feel it's justified if they (the chinese) had to live through what the history books are telling us. [/B][/QUOTE]
Oh I agree... the Japanese did some terrible things. Read "Flags of our Fathers" if you want to hear some of the atrocities captured American GI's were put through.
But, it's in the past. I can understand your grandmother's fears, she lived through it, but you really can't hold it against the modern nation of Japan, IMHO.
[B] not saying it's right or wrong, but i do feel it's justified if they (the chinese) had to live through what the history books are telling us. [/B][/QUOTE]
Oh I agree... the Japanese did some terrible things. Read "Flags of our Fathers" if you want to hear some of the atrocities captured American GI's were put through.
But, it's in the past. I can understand your grandmother's fears, she lived through it, but you really can't hold it against the modern nation of Japan, IMHO.
| brainrally | 02-13-2004 01:10 PM |
[QUOTE]RAM DISK is NOT an installation procedure! [/QUOTE]
Color me weird, but this is all I get out of it. :lol:
That was one of the poster's bylines.
Color me weird, but this is all I get out of it. :lol:
That was one of the poster's bylines.
| brainrally | 02-13-2004 01:12 PM |
Let me ask this question:
What nation has never at any time committed a wrongful act against another nation, or its own people?
What nation has never at any time committed a wrongful act against another nation, or its own people?
| jmott | 02-13-2004 02:21 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by brainrally [/i]
[B]Let me ask this question:
What nation has never at any time committed a wrongful act against another nation, or its own people? [/B][/QUOTE]
Monaco?
lol
[B]Let me ask this question:
What nation has never at any time committed a wrongful act against another nation, or its own people? [/B][/QUOTE]
Monaco?
lol
| Chromer | 02-13-2004 02:37 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by TheMirror[/i]
[B]Certainly they don't have all the computer stuff and telemetry, but they're working around the clock to unlock little secrets in those engines. [/B][/QUOTE]
Maybe not on race day, but you can bet that the engines running race simulations on the engine dynanometers are fully data-logged.
For the haters, start reading [url=http://www.theoldone.com/about/default.asp]here[/url] about what one of the leading engine shops (no idea if he still does NASCAR programs or not) has accomplished. And he's still building new tools to investigate new areas in optomizing combustion...
Your turbocharged DOHC all-aluminum engine owes much of it's performance to shops just like this...
[B]Certainly they don't have all the computer stuff and telemetry, but they're working around the clock to unlock little secrets in those engines. [/B][/QUOTE]
Maybe not on race day, but you can bet that the engines running race simulations on the engine dynanometers are fully data-logged.
For the haters, start reading [url=http://www.theoldone.com/about/default.asp]here[/url] about what one of the leading engine shops (no idea if he still does NASCAR programs or not) has accomplished. And he's still building new tools to investigate new areas in optomizing combustion...
Your turbocharged DOHC all-aluminum engine owes much of it's performance to shops just like this...
| TheMirror | 02-13-2004 02:40 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Chromer [/i]
[B]Maybe not on race day, but you can bet that the engines running race simulations on the engine dynanometers are fully data-logged.
[/B][/QUOTE]
THAT'S for sure. The only place Cup engine builders do NOT use computers is with the engine management itself. Everything else is CAD, CNC, etc. etc.
Great link by the way. :)
-Mirror
[B]Maybe not on race day, but you can bet that the engines running race simulations on the engine dynanometers are fully data-logged.
[/B][/QUOTE]
THAT'S for sure. The only place Cup engine builders do NOT use computers is with the engine management itself. Everything else is CAD, CNC, etc. etc.
Great link by the way. :)
-Mirror
| Chromer | 02-13-2004 03:39 PM |
I just noticed that TOO might actually be involved in the Tundra/NASCAR project...
[url]http://www.theoldone.com/archive/import_n_nascar.htm[/url]
Hmmm. Now THAT's interesting...
"Posted by NITRO on September 05, 1998 at 15:33:25:
One Asian manufacturer has had an on-going 5.6 ltr push rod program for almost 6 years now. We were first exposed to it during a test drive session. The car performed well, but when they opened the hood, finding a push rod V-8 was a shocker.
T.O.O. wondered why anyone would take a step backwards on our trip home, and then it became clear.
We have built some componments for their program including manifolds that accomodate Holley 4bbls , and the engine performance is on par with anything we've seen.
You will not see this in a Lexus running in NASCAR, but it will be coming to a track near you soon. "
In 1998 they had 6 years of development on the engine. Yeah, we'll just call a builder and slap an engine together... :rolleyes:
[url]http://www.theoldone.com/archive/import_n_nascar.htm[/url]
Hmmm. Now THAT's interesting...
"Posted by NITRO on September 05, 1998 at 15:33:25:
One Asian manufacturer has had an on-going 5.6 ltr push rod program for almost 6 years now. We were first exposed to it during a test drive session. The car performed well, but when they opened the hood, finding a push rod V-8 was a shocker.
T.O.O. wondered why anyone would take a step backwards on our trip home, and then it became clear.
We have built some componments for their program including manifolds that accomodate Holley 4bbls , and the engine performance is on par with anything we've seen.
You will not see this in a Lexus running in NASCAR, but it will be coming to a track near you soon. "
In 1998 they had 6 years of development on the engine. Yeah, we'll just call a builder and slap an engine together... :rolleyes:
| TheMirror | 02-13-2004 05:18 PM |
That's a fastinating link. So I guess Toyota has been messing around with it for quite some time. Even back when their CART engines were exploding in fireballs on a regular basis. Must say, 4 trucks in the top 12 in their first race is mighty impressive. Let's see about reliability now. Should be pretty good with that much development under it. Only 3 hours to go, we'll see!
-Mirror
-Mirror
| TV3WRX | 02-13-2004 07:43 PM |
OK, it's race time....
�
�
.....so no more hair-splitting for me.
Again, go Toyota! Destroy the myth! Do in a year (or six as some say) what the big three have done in 60! Top ten is good enough for me!:D
Again, go Toyota! Destroy the myth! Do in a year (or six as some say) what the big three have done in 60! Top ten is good enough for me!:D
| mofugga | 02-13-2004 10:52 PM |
heh, toyota got 2nd & another in the top 10 if i remember right:banana:
| TV3WRX | 02-13-2004 10:59 PM |
Yep.
�
�
They sure did. And this is one case when all things considered, the 2nd place may just be better than the first. I think they held Travis back intentionally.
Boogityato, boogityato, boogityato.:eek:
Boogityato, boogityato, boogityato.:eek:
| TV3WRX | 02-13-2004 11:11 PM |
[QUOTE]Again, I must respectfully disagree. You can't just jump into 'Cup racing with even an experienced engine builder and expect to run anywhere near up front....not to mention reliably. [/QUOTE]
:huh: :huh: :huh:
:huh: :huh: :huh:
| WRXMaster | 02-14-2004 12:43 AM |
It was too boring to watch .............so i just waited for the last 10 laps :cool:
| TheMirror | 02-14-2004 11:23 AM |
Here's a picture of the little engine that could. Nice job for Toyo! Looking competitive already. Looks like that 2007 Nextel Cup goal might be attainable. That makes it a 3 year plan vs. Dodge's 5. Looking back in the news archives, it looks like there were considerable rumblings that NASCAR management furnished Toyota with current engines, cars (Gibbs), but I didn't find anything that confirmed it. Only angry statements from Tony Stewart and various people from various teams. I can see it.....
[IMG]http://jayski.thatsracin.com/schemes/misc/trd-engine.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://jayski.thatsracin.com/schemes/misc/trd-engine.jpg[/IMG]
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