| GimmeScoobySnacks | 02-06-2002 05:02 PM |
using 4pt. harness without cage?
i know this is a dead horse that has been beat many times, but i have one simple question that i will lead to. i have a MY99 RS-T with [B]NO ROLL CAGE[/B] and two sparco 4pt harnesses from my last car. there are lots of canyons and mts. to run here in SoCal, and i was thinking of putting these harnesses in and using them.
THE POINT: Would it be safer, as safe, or not safe to use the harnesses while doing canyon runs? that is, if i roll down the side of a mountain, is it better to have regular seat belt or 4pt harness on?
THanks in advance.
Sid
THE POINT: Would it be safer, as safe, or not safe to use the harnesses while doing canyon runs? that is, if i roll down the side of a mountain, is it better to have regular seat belt or 4pt harness on?
THanks in advance.
Sid
| Jon Bogert | 02-06-2002 05:12 PM |
A better way of looking at it is active safety vs passive safety--you're less likely to go off the road if you're well restrained.
If you are concerned about what happens at the bottom of the hill, you should get an S-class Mercedes with lots of airbags.
If you are concerned about what happens at the bottom of the hill, you should get an S-class Mercedes with lots of airbags.
| Julian | 02-06-2002 05:33 PM |
Most of the arguements I've heard against this relate around the (magical) ability to somehow bend down/sideways when/if the roof caves in.
I still don't see how this is really possible. I've been in accidents, and the last thing you think about is trying to adjust your position. Combine that with the fact that any intertial-reel belt will have already locked with any sudden movement and I don't buy it.
I have run and will run harnesses in both my daily drivers (RS, '69 510). Any lengthy trips are run wearing the harnesses. I find them more comfortable, reassuring than 3-point belts I'm constantly tugging tighter.
Most bodily injury in accidents happens when the body hits other things as it moves in an accident. Restraining movement as much as possible is my goal, and accomplished with harnesses over seat belts.
If I fly off a cliff or roll my car, too many things have already gone wrong.
I still don't see how this is really possible. I've been in accidents, and the last thing you think about is trying to adjust your position. Combine that with the fact that any intertial-reel belt will have already locked with any sudden movement and I don't buy it.
I have run and will run harnesses in both my daily drivers (RS, '69 510). Any lengthy trips are run wearing the harnesses. I find them more comfortable, reassuring than 3-point belts I'm constantly tugging tighter.
Most bodily injury in accidents happens when the body hits other things as it moves in an accident. Restraining movement as much as possible is my goal, and accomplished with harnesses over seat belts.
If I fly off a cliff or roll my car, too many things have already gone wrong.
| Marquis | 02-07-2002 07:32 AM |
[QUOTE]Most of the arguements I've heard against this relate around the (magical) ability to somehow bend down/sideways when/if the roof caves in. [/QUOTE]
This is no "magical ability", it's physics. We're not talking about a person adjusting their position just before the roof caves in (if it does, it might not if the crash is not very severe). We're talking about the weight of the car forcing you to pivot down when you meet the roof. If you have booth shoulders pinned to the seat, the only thing that's going anywhere is your head with neck as the pivot point (presuming you have strong mount points for your harness; if you don't, you have bigger problems than rollovers). In contrast to what Martha Stewart likes to say, this is not "a good thing".
This is no "magical ability", it's physics. We're not talking about a person adjusting their position just before the roof caves in (if it does, it might not if the crash is not very severe). We're talking about the weight of the car forcing you to pivot down when you meet the roof. If you have booth shoulders pinned to the seat, the only thing that's going anywhere is your head with neck as the pivot point (presuming you have strong mount points for your harness; if you don't, you have bigger problems than rollovers). In contrast to what Martha Stewart likes to say, this is not "a good thing".
| Jon Bogert | 02-07-2002 09:55 AM |
[QUOTE]If you have booth shoulders pinned to the seat, the only thing that's going anywhere is your head with neck as the pivot point[/QUOTE]
That's no different from any racecar. Maybe F1 drivers should go to a diagonal shoulder belt.
Actually, harnesses have a bit of give in them--they're just more substantial seatbelts after all.
That's no different from any racecar. Maybe F1 drivers should go to a diagonal shoulder belt.
Actually, harnesses have a bit of give in them--they're just more substantial seatbelts after all.
| Julian | 02-07-2002 12:31 PM |
But if the structure of the car is caving in enough to begin bouncing off your grape, then I'd imagine the B-pillar is also compromised, as is the mount/location of the pivot of the stock belt system. If that moves, it'll loosen the belt and then you're a lot freer to smack various things inside the car.
Everything is a gamble, driving included. Vast majority of accidents aren't rollovers. I've spoken with race cage builders and they pretty much agree that a "convenient" cage isn't worth much, and tends to present more problems in the areas of heads meeting tubing in street accidents, which is a bad thing. A couple of the guys, after having seen my Datsun setup with Momo and harness, figured I was most of the way there as far as restraining the driver's body. None thought it would be worth the money for a convenient cage...now if I wanted a NASCAR style cage...
Everything is a gamble, driving included. Vast majority of accidents aren't rollovers. I've spoken with race cage builders and they pretty much agree that a "convenient" cage isn't worth much, and tends to present more problems in the areas of heads meeting tubing in street accidents, which is a bad thing. A couple of the guys, after having seen my Datsun setup with Momo and harness, figured I was most of the way there as far as restraining the driver's body. None thought it would be worth the money for a convenient cage...now if I wanted a NASCAR style cage...
| ChrisDP | 02-07-2002 12:59 PM |
An F1 car has a roll support structure. A conventional car's rollover protection is minimal at best. Not much of a fair comparison.
With a conventional seatbelt, you can get pushed out of the way of a collapsing roof. With a racing belt, that does not happen because you've got no place to go. Rather than the rollbar you should have installed, your head and neck get used as the rollbar. I've seen a picture of a M3 that rolled at Summit Point. I believe both passengers survived because they were pushed out of the way of the roof that caved in. BTW, if you saw the photos of the car... you might not be able to tell the car ever had a roof. It's that ugly. Me personally, I won't use a 4/5/6-pt harness on a public road or racetrack until I have a rollbar in my car. I don't like the idea of being made 3 feet tall in one fell swoop. BTW, in many states it's illegal to use a racing harness on the street for that reason.
With a conventional seatbelt, you can get pushed out of the way of a collapsing roof. With a racing belt, that does not happen because you've got no place to go. Rather than the rollbar you should have installed, your head and neck get used as the rollbar. I've seen a picture of a M3 that rolled at Summit Point. I believe both passengers survived because they were pushed out of the way of the roof that caved in. BTW, if you saw the photos of the car... you might not be able to tell the car ever had a roof. It's that ugly. Me personally, I won't use a 4/5/6-pt harness on a public road or racetrack until I have a rollbar in my car. I don't like the idea of being made 3 feet tall in one fell swoop. BTW, in many states it's illegal to use a racing harness on the street for that reason.
| hotrod | 02-07-2002 01:16 PM |
where are you thinking of mounting the shoulder straps ?
My question is where are you planning to mount the shoulder straps. You can't mount them to the roll bar since you won't have one, and the stock seat belt mount is way off to one side. That only leaves the floor which is a HUGH no no.
They should NEVER be mounted lower than the top of your shoulders. If you do the crash forces can cause tremendous forces that will try to crush your spine. :monkey:
Not good, easy way to end up in a wheel chair which it sounds is the thing you want to avoid.
Larry
They should NEVER be mounted lower than the top of your shoulders. If you do the crash forces can cause tremendous forces that will try to crush your spine. :monkey:
Not good, easy way to end up in a wheel chair which it sounds is the thing you want to avoid.
Larry
| Axiochus | 02-07-2002 01:27 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Jon Bogert [/i]
[B]A better way of looking at it is active safety vs passive safety--you're less likely to go off the road if you're well restrained.
If you are concerned about what happens at the bottom of the hill, you should get an S-class Mercedes with lots of airbags. [/B][/QUOTE]
Not to mention the fact that even if you have the cage with the belts, you may be no better off in a roll if you're not wearing a helmet.
Adding a cage gives you a lot of material to konk you head on as you thrash violently about when the car is rolling. There's no way I'd put a cage in a street car, unless I planned to wear my helmet when I drove.
I personally wouldn't put racing belts in a car, but I don't think it creates such a risk as to substantial increase any potential injury/death.
Matt.
[B]A better way of looking at it is active safety vs passive safety--you're less likely to go off the road if you're well restrained.
If you are concerned about what happens at the bottom of the hill, you should get an S-class Mercedes with lots of airbags. [/B][/QUOTE]
Not to mention the fact that even if you have the cage with the belts, you may be no better off in a roll if you're not wearing a helmet.
Adding a cage gives you a lot of material to konk you head on as you thrash violently about when the car is rolling. There's no way I'd put a cage in a street car, unless I planned to wear my helmet when I drove.
I personally wouldn't put racing belts in a car, but I don't think it creates such a risk as to substantial increase any potential injury/death.
Matt.
| Jon Bogert | 02-07-2002 01:56 PM |
There are four issues here:
1) Head injury. Don't use a rollbar/cage without a helmet--that one's easy.
2) Neck injury (from sudden deceleration or bouncing around). This is where I drew the F1 parallel. If you're worried wear a horse collar or HANS device, but no one would suggest not wearing harnesses for this reason!
3) A rollover that results in the roof caving in, yet the seats don't fail and your head is crushed by the roof. This is a serious long shot--again, not a reason to forego the important safety benefits. We've all heard the story about the BMW. Over and over. How many hundreds of accidents do people walk away from because they were properly restrained?
4) Freak accidents can happen. The benefits from harnesses in accident prevention and protection FAR outweighs the times they add to injury. I can't understand why people are so myopic about this issue! :mad:
1) Head injury. Don't use a rollbar/cage without a helmet--that one's easy.
2) Neck injury (from sudden deceleration or bouncing around). This is where I drew the F1 parallel. If you're worried wear a horse collar or HANS device, but no one would suggest not wearing harnesses for this reason!
3) A rollover that results in the roof caving in, yet the seats don't fail and your head is crushed by the roof. This is a serious long shot--again, not a reason to forego the important safety benefits. We've all heard the story about the BMW. Over and over. How many hundreds of accidents do people walk away from because they were properly restrained?
4) Freak accidents can happen. The benefits from harnesses in accident prevention and protection FAR outweighs the times they add to injury. I can't understand why people are so myopic about this issue! :mad:
| JamesC | 02-07-2002 01:57 PM |
I've had extensive conversations on this subject as well. I will not use a harness bar without a corresponding roll hoop (and everything else that goes with a proper cage).
If you need photographic proof of why not to run with a harness, even in an extremely safe car with airbags..look here. Let me know if any of you want to contact this driver. He can tell you himself that if he had been running a harness bar with harnesses neither he nor his instructor would be in the same form.
[IMG]http://www.northtexasaudigroup.com/albums/Random/aaj.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.northtexasaudigroup.com/albums/Random/aak.jpg[/IMG]
EDIT: He he, you can see them again Jon (since we posted at the same time). I'm frankly surprised you feel the way you do...
If you need photographic proof of why not to run with a harness, even in an extremely safe car with airbags..look here. Let me know if any of you want to contact this driver. He can tell you himself that if he had been running a harness bar with harnesses neither he nor his instructor would be in the same form.
[IMG]http://www.northtexasaudigroup.com/albums/Random/aaj.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.northtexasaudigroup.com/albums/Random/aak.jpg[/IMG]
EDIT: He he, you can see them again Jon (since we posted at the same time). I'm frankly surprised you feel the way you do...
| grimlock | 02-07-2002 02:15 PM |
I would never run 4pt or up harnesses because I have an irrational fear of getting my car stuffed under a semi trailer and I want to be able to duck behind the dash if I'm headed that way...
But that's just me.
Ross N.
But that's just me.
Ross N.
| Jon Bogert | 02-07-2002 02:37 PM |
Two years ago a Ski Sawmill a rally car went off towards a streambed, rolled a quarter turn and hit a tree at an odd angle. The tree came through the A-pillar, snapped the (perfectly legal) roll cage which bent and killed the co-driver.
Are you suggesting I should remove the roll cage from my rally car?
Roll cages kill! See, this one example proves it.
I really don't know how I can make my point with more clarity...
Are you suggesting I should remove the roll cage from my rally car?
Roll cages kill! See, this one example proves it.
I really don't know how I can make my point with more clarity...
| bbbradley | 02-07-2002 03:56 PM |
You are also missing the point about 4 point harnesses in general being a poor idea. With no anti-sub mechanism you run the risk if having the lap belt come off your hips (hard, boney parts) and crush your abdomen and internal organs.
/bill
/bill
| GimmeScoobySnacks | 02-07-2002 04:39 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by bbbradley [/i]
[B]You are also missing the point about 4 point harnesses in general being a poor idea. With no anti-sub mechanism you run the risk if having the lap belt come off your hips (hard, boney parts) and crush your abdomen and internal organs.
/bill [/B][/QUOTE]
uhh...do you realize how fast you would have to be going for the "sub" theory to be a factor? for one thing, i dont drive that fast and for another i'm talking about Canyon/Mountain driving where full force frontal impacts aren't my biggest worse-case-scenario fear.
Everyone, thank you for your input. Jon and Julian make the best points (or maybe just the points i wanted to hear :lol: ) and i will be installing the harnesses soon. yes of course my head and neck could get smashed, but then again i could hit a wooden fence and be impaled by a stake. (saw that on "Rescue 911" :eek: )
[B]You are also missing the point about 4 point harnesses in general being a poor idea. With no anti-sub mechanism you run the risk if having the lap belt come off your hips (hard, boney parts) and crush your abdomen and internal organs.
/bill [/B][/QUOTE]
uhh...do you realize how fast you would have to be going for the "sub" theory to be a factor? for one thing, i dont drive that fast and for another i'm talking about Canyon/Mountain driving where full force frontal impacts aren't my biggest worse-case-scenario fear.
Everyone, thank you for your input. Jon and Julian make the best points (or maybe just the points i wanted to hear :lol: ) and i will be installing the harnesses soon. yes of course my head and neck could get smashed, but then again i could hit a wooden fence and be impaled by a stake. (saw that on "Rescue 911" :eek: )
| JamesC | 02-07-2002 04:45 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Jon Bogert [/i]
[B]
Roll cages kill! See, this one example proves it.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Red Herring.
JamesC
[B]
Roll cages kill! See, this one example proves it.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Red Herring.
JamesC
| Jon Bogert | 02-07-2002 04:59 PM |
[QUOTE]Red Herring.[/QUOTE]
Exactly!
Exactly!
| JamesC | 02-07-2002 05:05 PM |
I can add no further value than :p
JamesC
JamesC
| Julian | 02-07-2002 06:03 PM |
Schroth harnesses have not only DOT approval (so cops can't meaningfully harrass you), they also incorporate anti-submarining measures (ASM). Go to their site for more information. And the harness tail IS attached to the rear C-pillar, you just adjust the shoulder straps to compensate. Proves to be no problem.
I still really doubt anyone would have the presense of mind to duck under the dash if faced with going under a semi trailer. Have any of you guys been in an auto accident? You don't think, you react. Any reaction involving moving suddenly with the seat belt on will lock the belt. Has someone ducked under the dash before? I'm sure. Are they very lucky? Absolutely.
Again, the point of a harness or seat belt is to restrain body movement in a crash, and in the case of a harness to anchor the body so it doesn't move around during aggresive driving. More restraint = better. Again, most auto injuries are from the body hitting things during/after an impact, not from metal/chassis intrusion.
I still really doubt anyone would have the presense of mind to duck under the dash if faced with going under a semi trailer. Have any of you guys been in an auto accident? You don't think, you react. Any reaction involving moving suddenly with the seat belt on will lock the belt. Has someone ducked under the dash before? I'm sure. Are they very lucky? Absolutely.
Again, the point of a harness or seat belt is to restrain body movement in a crash, and in the case of a harness to anchor the body so it doesn't move around during aggresive driving. More restraint = better. Again, most auto injuries are from the body hitting things during/after an impact, not from metal/chassis intrusion.
| GoodFinder | 02-07-2002 07:23 PM |
... thanks for the dialog here ... I have really been wanting to put some good seats in my WRX so that I don't move around so much on the track ... but then I was thinking I should do a harness in order to do it right ... which meant I also figured I should do a roll cage in order to be able to do the harness correctly ... but then when I am on the street in my WRX of course I will not be wearing a helmet ... now, I was thinking of padding the roll bar anyway, but ... so much to think about here ...
GoodFinder :)
GoodFinder :)
| JamesC | 02-07-2002 07:35 PM |
==================
(sorry, side issue)
We looked for you at MSR this past weekend Goodfinder but I guess you didn't come out on Sunday? Maybe next time...
==================
JamesC
(sorry, side issue)
We looked for you at MSR this past weekend Goodfinder but I guess you didn't come out on Sunday? Maybe next time...
==================
JamesC
| Brad O. | 02-07-2002 07:39 PM |
I just installed my 3 point sparco harnasses yesterday, with No cage! I wanted them mainly for when I auto cross, but since my car is a daily driver I use them on the street to. I saw two other wrxs with them at the track with no cage. they keep you in the seat better when cornering hard. I don't plan roll but If I do I'm too tall anyways.:lol: Like somone said though make sure that the angle going back isn't to steep. The back seat belt bolt holes in the middle was ok on my car.
:( Ps wouldn't what to go off in a canon with them on though.
:( Ps wouldn't what to go off in a canon with them on though.
| Axiochus | 02-07-2002 10:04 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by GoodFinder [/i]
[B]... thanks for the dialog here ... I have really been wanting to put some good seats in my WRX so that I don't move around so much on the track ... but then I was thinking I should do a harness in order to do it right ... which meant I also figured I should do a roll cage in order to be able to do the harness correctly ... but then when I am on the street in my WRX of course I will not be wearing a helmet ... now, I was thinking of padding the roll bar anyway, but ... so much to think about here ...
GoodFinder :) [/B][/QUOTE]
I think this underscores the importance of thinking long and hard before you start to alter any of the safety equiptment in your street car. Cages, helmets, seats, belts, window nets, etc.. are all designed to work together, and if you only install one or two pieces of the set it better be the right one or two pieces.
There is no way I'd ever install a cage in my daily driver unless I knew that there was no possible way my head could contact any part of it (which would be an interesting feat... if not impossible with a decent cage). Roll bar padding will offer little help if your head smashes into part of the cage at 80 MPH.
Like I said before, I don't think installing racing a harness in a street car is taking any big gamble. And, to be honest, if you were to put in "real" seats, with the harnesses, you'd be even better off in nearly any sort of impact. HOWEVER (and, it's a big HOWEVER), looking backwards as you're going in reverse, and checking you blind spot while turning or changing lanes is not something that is easily done when cinched into racing seats.
I usually combat this by un-attaching the shoulder straps when backing out... but I don't drive that car on the street a whole lot, so it's not that big of a deal.
Just a couple more things to think about.
Matt.
[B]... thanks for the dialog here ... I have really been wanting to put some good seats in my WRX so that I don't move around so much on the track ... but then I was thinking I should do a harness in order to do it right ... which meant I also figured I should do a roll cage in order to be able to do the harness correctly ... but then when I am on the street in my WRX of course I will not be wearing a helmet ... now, I was thinking of padding the roll bar anyway, but ... so much to think about here ...
GoodFinder :) [/B][/QUOTE]
I think this underscores the importance of thinking long and hard before you start to alter any of the safety equiptment in your street car. Cages, helmets, seats, belts, window nets, etc.. are all designed to work together, and if you only install one or two pieces of the set it better be the right one or two pieces.
There is no way I'd ever install a cage in my daily driver unless I knew that there was no possible way my head could contact any part of it (which would be an interesting feat... if not impossible with a decent cage). Roll bar padding will offer little help if your head smashes into part of the cage at 80 MPH.
Like I said before, I don't think installing racing a harness in a street car is taking any big gamble. And, to be honest, if you were to put in "real" seats, with the harnesses, you'd be even better off in nearly any sort of impact. HOWEVER (and, it's a big HOWEVER), looking backwards as you're going in reverse, and checking you blind spot while turning or changing lanes is not something that is easily done when cinched into racing seats.
I usually combat this by un-attaching the shoulder straps when backing out... but I don't drive that car on the street a whole lot, so it's not that big of a deal.
Just a couple more things to think about.
Matt.
| p-car | 02-07-2002 10:27 PM |
Sid, you should pm Scrappydo for his opinion on this topic. Stephen did exactly what you describe in Latigo Canyon, with stock belt and walked away. IIRC the center of the roof caved in a bit, and he prolly would've been OK with a harness too.
I think you were at Willow Springs in July when the red Integra rolled. The passenger a-pillar caved in so a passenger with harnesses would have used his melon to hold the car up.
Personally, I'd rather keep the car on the road by driving below my limits on open public roads.
john - opinions are like a$$holes, everybody has one
I think you were at Willow Springs in July when the red Integra rolled. The passenger a-pillar caved in so a passenger with harnesses would have used his melon to hold the car up.
Personally, I'd rather keep the car on the road by driving below my limits on open public roads.
john - opinions are like a$$holes, everybody has one
| GoodFinder | 02-07-2002 10:29 PM |
Matt,
So now that I've made it home and had a great dinner and some nice quality time with my wife, maybe my brain is thinking more clearly, and then I see your very helpful post on the perspective of really thinking this all the way through. Question, what are your thoughts of [URL=http://www.harnessbars.com/subaru/wrx.asp]Harness Bars[/URL] in the WRX?
GoodFinder :)
ps, JamesC, sorry we missed each other at the track last Sunday, yes I was there on Saturday, but after my first session, I did my usual routine of measurements and such, and then driving away from the garage, I heard some nasty CV joint noises on both sides in the front, so I drove it over to Cobb Tuning and left it there for CV and wheel bearings (plus the drivetrain upgrade and a few other goodies) ... looking forward to being back in the WRX indeed!
So now that I've made it home and had a great dinner and some nice quality time with my wife, maybe my brain is thinking more clearly, and then I see your very helpful post on the perspective of really thinking this all the way through. Question, what are your thoughts of [URL=http://www.harnessbars.com/subaru/wrx.asp]Harness Bars[/URL] in the WRX?
GoodFinder :)
ps, JamesC, sorry we missed each other at the track last Sunday, yes I was there on Saturday, but after my first session, I did my usual routine of measurements and such, and then driving away from the garage, I heard some nasty CV joint noises on both sides in the front, so I drove it over to Cobb Tuning and left it there for CV and wheel bearings (plus the drivetrain upgrade and a few other goodies) ... looking forward to being back in the WRX indeed!
| Axiochus | 02-07-2002 10:56 PM |
That harness bar seems to be tucked far enough behind the B-pillar so as not to present any major problems.
That's with Stock WRX seats mounted on the stock sliders in the stock position, though. If you plan on going with competition style seats, your results may vary. If you want to do the harness thing, that doesn't doesn't seem to be like a bad set up. Plus, with the stock WRX seats seeing the blind spots wouldn't be so bad (although, like I said above, it's a trade-off... WRX seats aren't nearly as supportive as competition-type stuff).
On the other hand, I'd have some reservations about letting anybody ride in the back of the car (especially if that anybody wasn't belted in). That bar looks like a good way to lose a mouthfull of teeth. If you don't often carry unbelted people back there, though, that's probably not an issue.
One other thought: If I were going to put in harnesses in my WRX, I'd run the sub. It wouldn't be that hard to do (I'll bet you could do it without any drilling at all) and, if nothing else, it will ensure that the belts don't slide up on you hips and force your body to bend at the wrong points upon impact (again, I'm not a big believe in the "decapitation theory", unless you're driving a formula car, or your drive in an extremely laid back position).
Just my thoughts,
Matt.
*EDIT* One afterthought about that bar, and harnesses. Suppose you do get into an accident while you're wearing the belts you installed, attached to the bar you installed. I'm not sure how your insurance company would look at that. Yeah, you and I know that the bar/harness set-up is probably safer, but what will they think about that "tinkering" with the safety features of your car?
That's with Stock WRX seats mounted on the stock sliders in the stock position, though. If you plan on going with competition style seats, your results may vary. If you want to do the harness thing, that doesn't doesn't seem to be like a bad set up. Plus, with the stock WRX seats seeing the blind spots wouldn't be so bad (although, like I said above, it's a trade-off... WRX seats aren't nearly as supportive as competition-type stuff).
On the other hand, I'd have some reservations about letting anybody ride in the back of the car (especially if that anybody wasn't belted in). That bar looks like a good way to lose a mouthfull of teeth. If you don't often carry unbelted people back there, though, that's probably not an issue.
One other thought: If I were going to put in harnesses in my WRX, I'd run the sub. It wouldn't be that hard to do (I'll bet you could do it without any drilling at all) and, if nothing else, it will ensure that the belts don't slide up on you hips and force your body to bend at the wrong points upon impact (again, I'm not a big believe in the "decapitation theory", unless you're driving a formula car, or your drive in an extremely laid back position).
Just my thoughts,
Matt.
*EDIT* One afterthought about that bar, and harnesses. Suppose you do get into an accident while you're wearing the belts you installed, attached to the bar you installed. I'm not sure how your insurance company would look at that. Yeah, you and I know that the bar/harness set-up is probably safer, but what will they think about that "tinkering" with the safety features of your car?
| Marquis | 02-08-2002 07:04 AM |
If the Scroth harnesses are DOT-approved, then I believe those are the ones where one side is designed to give way to allow your body to rotate down in a rollover. I have no issues with the use of this piece of equipment, as it's designed to act like a standard 3-point in a crash.
| bbbradley | 02-08-2002 07:40 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by GimmeScoobySnacks [/i]
[B]
uhh...do you realize how fast you would have to be going for the "sub" theory to be a factor? for one thing, i dont drive that fast and for another i'm talking about Canyon/Mountain driving where full force frontal impacts aren't my biggest worse-case-scenario fear.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Actually not very fast at all... people don't realize the amount of force involved in an accident, even at relatively low speeds. I am not talking about submarining, I am talking that when your body pushes against the straps, the lap belt gets pulled up into a bad spot.
And if you aren't driving that fast why do you need harnesses in the first place? Why not just get Type "R" seat belt pads... :rolleyes:
I don't see a reason for harnesses on public roads...
/bill
[B]
uhh...do you realize how fast you would have to be going for the "sub" theory to be a factor? for one thing, i dont drive that fast and for another i'm talking about Canyon/Mountain driving where full force frontal impacts aren't my biggest worse-case-scenario fear.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Actually not very fast at all... people don't realize the amount of force involved in an accident, even at relatively low speeds. I am not talking about submarining, I am talking that when your body pushes against the straps, the lap belt gets pulled up into a bad spot.
And if you aren't driving that fast why do you need harnesses in the first place? Why not just get Type "R" seat belt pads... :rolleyes:
I don't see a reason for harnesses on public roads...
/bill
| GoodFinder | 02-08-2002 08:27 AM |
Although my WRX is my daily driver, it is also the primary car I take to the track, hence my desire to be able to be cinched in to the seat more tightly, therefore my thinking about the good seats and harness assembly. When I am driving on the street, I would assume that I would want to use the normal seat belts. I really do need to figure this out, because (a) it will improve my lap times at the track, and (b) it will be more enjoyable driving at the track. But, these are all good points to take into consideration. GoodFinder :)
| bbbradley | 02-08-2002 12:13 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by GoodFinder [/i]
[B]Although my WRX is my daily driver, it is also the primary car I take to the track, hence my desire to be able to be cinched in to the seat more tightly, therefore my thinking about the good seats and harness assembly. [/B][/QUOTE]
Forgot to mention: I would ask the club(s) you plan to run with about harnesses. A couple of the ones up here do not allow 4 point harnesses. Some also forbid harnesses without a cage/rollbar.
A race seat, cage, and a 5/6 point setup is really the best option but it makes some pretty big sacrifices to daily driver comfort.
/bill
[B]Although my WRX is my daily driver, it is also the primary car I take to the track, hence my desire to be able to be cinched in to the seat more tightly, therefore my thinking about the good seats and harness assembly. [/B][/QUOTE]
Forgot to mention: I would ask the club(s) you plan to run with about harnesses. A couple of the ones up here do not allow 4 point harnesses. Some also forbid harnesses without a cage/rollbar.
A race seat, cage, and a 5/6 point setup is really the best option but it makes some pretty big sacrifices to daily driver comfort.
/bill
| Tangmere | 02-09-2002 10:41 AM |
One concern out here in Colorado are elk and mule deer, both tall enough that if you hit them they will come through the windshield (especially my car, it sits quite low). My thought is to duck if I have the chance, can't do that if you're wearing a harness.
Mark
Mark
| tifosi77 | 02-09-2002 10:53 AM |
The DOT has been pushing car manufacturers for years to use four point belts but manufacturers have resisted because most people wold feel that they are too restrictive. There is a reason that every child seat has four or five point belts. While some sill say you cannot compare shild seats I beg to differ, obviously if four and five point belts are dangerous there would be a three point set-up within the child seat. bottom line four and five point belts are safer in all situations including roll over, the forces acting on the body during roll over almost preclude the ability to "duck" since you would be forced towards the roof, we can all cite examples of this person or that but most of those are just freak occurences. Nothing is totally safe, just my .02
| GoodFinder | 02-11-2002 06:59 PM |
My Sparco "Milano" sport seats arrive soon, so I need to "decide" on which approach to take:
(a) normal seat belts
(b) harnesses with the [URL=http://www.harnessbars.com]Harness Bars[/URL]
(c) harnesses with full roll cage
Any "final thoughts" from the i-club community here before I take the plunge?
GoodFinder :)
(a) normal seat belts
(b) harnesses with the [URL=http://www.harnessbars.com]Harness Bars[/URL]
(c) harnesses with full roll cage
Any "final thoughts" from the i-club community here before I take the plunge?
GoodFinder :)
| p-car | 02-12-2002 01:58 AM |
my $.02
Use the stock belts on the street and 4 points for auto-x events. For the shoulder belts, you can use eye bolts to hold the oem rear belts (lap points under the seat) and put "clip-ins" on the race-belt shoulder straps.
Harness bars...are they harness [B]guide[/B] bars or harness mounts that are designed and tested to withstand the g's that a good crash can induce?
Here's an example of the latter: [URL]http://www.bkauto.com/hm1030.html[/URL]
There is a British company that makes "removeable cages" that sound interesting for a daily driver that also gets some serious track time - forgot who makes em tho. Sure wish someone in the states would get one and post pics of it in their car ;)
Use the stock belts on the street and 4 points for auto-x events. For the shoulder belts, you can use eye bolts to hold the oem rear belts (lap points under the seat) and put "clip-ins" on the race-belt shoulder straps.
Harness bars...are they harness [B]guide[/B] bars or harness mounts that are designed and tested to withstand the g's that a good crash can induce?
Here's an example of the latter: [URL]http://www.bkauto.com/hm1030.html[/URL]
There is a British company that makes "removeable cages" that sound interesting for a daily driver that also gets some serious track time - forgot who makes em tho. Sure wish someone in the states would get one and post pics of it in their car ;)
| Ryan | 02-16-2002 08:52 PM |
Some of you guys that insist on using harnesses on the street, or on the racetrack are nuts - its only a matter of time before it catches up with you. I read this forum alot, and only when i read stuff like this that really gets to me....
Here's my $.02
[b]Why you should not run a harness on the street:[/b]
A 4 point harness can seriously injure your midsection in an accident.
Can you *safely* check your blind spot, look to change lanes, look around you, etc with a harness on? Hell no... thats unsafe. And if its loose enough so that you can, the harnesses arent doing you any good - they do stretch on impacts.
If you were in a serious accident, you would have no means of moving around in the cabin. A schroth Ralleye harness provides this ability, this is why they are DOT approved (and they sell left- and right-side specific harnesses for this reason).
Car manufacturers have the DOT approve their seat belt / restraint systems - if they were not safe they would not be there. Harnesses are not legal because of the million possible 'unsafe' ways to install them (on the floor in the rear, no sub belt, etc).
[b]Why you should not run a harness with a 'harness bar'[/b]
They are not designed to withstand the stresses of a seat belt mount, they will break/deform/fail and cause serious injury in an accident. Just because they're bolted to a seat belt mount, doesnt mean they're safe. They should be used merely as a harness guide... not a securing mechanism.
For autocross competition, these are more or less moot points - the speeds are slow, there are no other cars around, and much much less to worry about, so a 4-point is "safe" although there is still risk for rollover.
[b]Why you should not run a harness on a race track without a roll cage/bar[/b]
I think the BMW picture says it all. Also, you can read the story behind it here:
[url]http://www.tux.org/~joel/bmw/m3.txt[/url]
The reality of it is, if you are using just one or two safety devices on the track, then you're doing it wrong. There is nothing [i]wrong[/i] with stock/oem equipment - its been crash tested and DOT approved. Things happen so go**amn fast on a track that you can go in just too hot, too early, and before you know it you are in a flat spin toward the trees. You may say "i dont plan on going that fast" but it does not take a 100mph firey crash to cause some severe impacts.
Using 4 points with no other safety equipment on the track is probably one of the dumbest things you can do with yourself. You may be a great driver, but things happen so fast and there is always something that can go wrong - most of the time it doesnt, which makes track days fun and safe - but you have to plan for the worst case scenerio.
And you have think when installing safety equipment: "I may need this to save my life"
FWIW, YMMV.
-Ryan-
Here's my $.02
[b]Why you should not run a harness on the street:[/b]
A 4 point harness can seriously injure your midsection in an accident.
Can you *safely* check your blind spot, look to change lanes, look around you, etc with a harness on? Hell no... thats unsafe. And if its loose enough so that you can, the harnesses arent doing you any good - they do stretch on impacts.
If you were in a serious accident, you would have no means of moving around in the cabin. A schroth Ralleye harness provides this ability, this is why they are DOT approved (and they sell left- and right-side specific harnesses for this reason).
Car manufacturers have the DOT approve their seat belt / restraint systems - if they were not safe they would not be there. Harnesses are not legal because of the million possible 'unsafe' ways to install them (on the floor in the rear, no sub belt, etc).
[b]Why you should not run a harness with a 'harness bar'[/b]
They are not designed to withstand the stresses of a seat belt mount, they will break/deform/fail and cause serious injury in an accident. Just because they're bolted to a seat belt mount, doesnt mean they're safe. They should be used merely as a harness guide... not a securing mechanism.
For autocross competition, these are more or less moot points - the speeds are slow, there are no other cars around, and much much less to worry about, so a 4-point is "safe" although there is still risk for rollover.
[b]Why you should not run a harness on a race track without a roll cage/bar[/b]
I think the BMW picture says it all. Also, you can read the story behind it here:
[url]http://www.tux.org/~joel/bmw/m3.txt[/url]
The reality of it is, if you are using just one or two safety devices on the track, then you're doing it wrong. There is nothing [i]wrong[/i] with stock/oem equipment - its been crash tested and DOT approved. Things happen so go**amn fast on a track that you can go in just too hot, too early, and before you know it you are in a flat spin toward the trees. You may say "i dont plan on going that fast" but it does not take a 100mph firey crash to cause some severe impacts.
Using 4 points with no other safety equipment on the track is probably one of the dumbest things you can do with yourself. You may be a great driver, but things happen so fast and there is always something that can go wrong - most of the time it doesnt, which makes track days fun and safe - but you have to plan for the worst case scenerio.
And you have think when installing safety equipment: "I may need this to save my life"
FWIW, YMMV.
-Ryan-
| TrackMonster_2002 | 08-07-2012 01:48 AM |
[/QUOTE]
Can you *safely* check your blind spot, look to change lanes, look around you, etc with a harness on? Hell no... thats unsafe.
[b]Why you should not run a harness on a race track without a roll cage/bar[/b]
I think the BMW picture says it all. Also, you can read the story behind it here:
[/QUOTE]
So for the safely checking your blind spot. If your mirrors are adjusted properly, the blind spot should be minimal. And secondly, even strapped in with 4/5 point harnesses, as long as your not using a hans device and helmet, you can turn your head to the left and right, and you can move your head forward to, so YES, you can safely check your blind spot/change lanes.
For the BMW picture. I wasn't there to see the wreck, but to me it doesn't look like it rolled, it looked like it went airborne, then slammed down on its roof. Usually in a roll, the car's roof doesn't take all of the impact, like it did in the BMW wreck. And to me, being more restricted in the car during an impact is better, as I am less likely to be ejected from my seat using the 3 points(far fetched, i know) and i am less likely to hit anything in the cabin of the car.
Can you *safely* check your blind spot, look to change lanes, look around you, etc with a harness on? Hell no... thats unsafe.
[b]Why you should not run a harness on a race track without a roll cage/bar[/b]
I think the BMW picture says it all. Also, you can read the story behind it here:
[/QUOTE]
So for the safely checking your blind spot. If your mirrors are adjusted properly, the blind spot should be minimal. And secondly, even strapped in with 4/5 point harnesses, as long as your not using a hans device and helmet, you can turn your head to the left and right, and you can move your head forward to, so YES, you can safely check your blind spot/change lanes.
For the BMW picture. I wasn't there to see the wreck, but to me it doesn't look like it rolled, it looked like it went airborne, then slammed down on its roof. Usually in a roll, the car's roof doesn't take all of the impact, like it did in the BMW wreck. And to me, being more restricted in the car during an impact is better, as I am less likely to be ejected from my seat using the 3 points(far fetched, i know) and i am less likely to hit anything in the cabin of the car.
| Psychoreo | 08-07-2012 03:26 AM |
[quote=TrackMonster_2002;37763737]
So for the safely checking your blind spot. If your mirrors are adjusted properly, the blind spot should be minimal. And secondly, even strapped in with 4/5 point harnesses, as long as your not using a hans device and helmet, you can turn your head to the left and right, and you can move your head forward to, so YES, you can safely check your blind spot/change lanes.
For the BMW picture. I wasn't there to see the wreck, but to me it doesn't look like it rolled, it looked like it went airborne, then slammed down on its roof. Usually in a roll, the car's roof doesn't take all of the impact, like it did in the BMW wreck. And to me, being more restricted in the car during an impact is better, as I am less likely to be ejected from my seat using the 3 points(far fetched, i know) and i am less likely to hit anything in the cabin of the car.[/quote]
2002.
So for the safely checking your blind spot. If your mirrors are adjusted properly, the blind spot should be minimal. And secondly, even strapped in with 4/5 point harnesses, as long as your not using a hans device and helmet, you can turn your head to the left and right, and you can move your head forward to, so YES, you can safely check your blind spot/change lanes.
For the BMW picture. I wasn't there to see the wreck, but to me it doesn't look like it rolled, it looked like it went airborne, then slammed down on its roof. Usually in a roll, the car's roof doesn't take all of the impact, like it did in the BMW wreck. And to me, being more restricted in the car during an impact is better, as I am less likely to be ejected from my seat using the 3 points(far fetched, i know) and i am less likely to hit anything in the cabin of the car.[/quote]
2002.
| mjfubar101 | 08-07-2012 09:03 AM |
Hey he has to get his posts up, hence why I am posting now... haha
| oconnor | 08-10-2012 03:38 PM |
I was asking myself the same questions as the OP yesterday and watched this video from Schroth
[url]http://www.schrothracing.com/docs/SchrothASMII.wmv[/url]
I won't be using any harness that doesn't include ASM (Anti-Submarine Mechanism). Street, track, autocross, anywhere.
[url]http://www.schrothracing.com/docs/SchrothASMII.wmv[/url]
I won't be using any harness that doesn't include ASM (Anti-Submarine Mechanism). Street, track, autocross, anywhere.
| mhoward1 | 08-16-2012 08:53 AM |
[quote=oconnor;37793869]I was asking myself the same questions as the OP yesterday and watched this video from Schroth
[url]http://www.schrothracing.com/docs/SchrothASMII.wmv[/url]
I won't be using any harness that doesn't include ASM (Anti-Submarine Mechanism). Street, track, autocross, anywhere.[/quote]
Good choice. 3 points don't have them since they are designed to push the person to the side. A 4 point only has one direction to go, down.
[url]http://www.schrothracing.com/docs/SchrothASMII.wmv[/url]
I won't be using any harness that doesn't include ASM (Anti-Submarine Mechanism). Street, track, autocross, anywhere.[/quote]
Good choice. 3 points don't have them since they are designed to push the person to the side. A 4 point only has one direction to go, down.
| thereplacement | 08-16-2012 06:13 PM |
Back from the dead man... but I was actually just discussing this with friends the other day, the 2 general rules I've been told:
[B]DON'T USE A HARNESS WITHOUT A CAGE - YOU RISK HEAD AND NECK INJURY IN A ROLL OVER.[/B]
...ok, [I]maybe[/I] a DOT approved harness designed for a specific car, like the scroth quick fit, is ok in some cases, but I still wouldn't consider it for anything other than autocross, definitely not for street driving
[B]DON'T USE A CAGE ON THE STREET - YOU RISK HEAD INJURY IF YOU CRASH AND HIT YOUR HEAD ON A BAR WITHOUT A HELMET ON.[/B] (yes even if it's padded... think of how soft that padding is compared to say, a bicycle helmet)
These both seem like common sense to me, and if there's anything I'm not taking chances with it's head and neck injury.
[B]DON'T USE A HARNESS WITHOUT A CAGE - YOU RISK HEAD AND NECK INJURY IN A ROLL OVER.[/B]
...ok, [I]maybe[/I] a DOT approved harness designed for a specific car, like the scroth quick fit, is ok in some cases, but I still wouldn't consider it for anything other than autocross, definitely not for street driving
[B]DON'T USE A CAGE ON THE STREET - YOU RISK HEAD INJURY IF YOU CRASH AND HIT YOUR HEAD ON A BAR WITHOUT A HELMET ON.[/B] (yes even if it's padded... think of how soft that padding is compared to say, a bicycle helmet)
These both seem like common sense to me, and if there's anything I'm not taking chances with it's head and neck injury.
| Mike.J | 08-17-2012 07:16 AM |
Not trying to start a flame war, but how often do you see roll overs? (YOU RISK HEAD AND NECK INJURY IN A ROLL OVER.) How often do yu see front end crashes? I work the odds and I'd rather have a 4 point harnes holding me back in the much more likley front end crash.
As for no anti-submarine fixture in a 4 point harness - true. But there is no anti-submarine in a 3 point harness either.
As for no anti-submarine fixture in a 4 point harness - true. But there is no anti-submarine in a 3 point harness either.
| mav1c | 08-17-2012 07:37 AM |
[quote=Mike.J;37842033]Not trying to start a flame war, but how often do you see roll overs? (YOU RISK HEAD AND NECK INJURY IN A ROLL OVER.) How often do yu see front end crashes? I work the odds and I'd rather have a 4 point harnes holding me back in the much more likley front end crash.
As for no anti-submarine fixture in a 4 point harness - true. But there is no anti-submarine in a 3 point harness either.[/quote]
You don't get it. Do some more reading.
In a front end collision, 4-pt's are bad because you slide down under the lap belt. Hence why you need the anti-submarine belt.
3-pt belts don't need an anti-submarine because they're designed to allow you to fold over the lab belt, not slide under it.
As for no anti-submarine fixture in a 4 point harness - true. But there is no anti-submarine in a 3 point harness either.[/quote]
You don't get it. Do some more reading.
In a front end collision, 4-pt's are bad because you slide down under the lap belt. Hence why you need the anti-submarine belt.
3-pt belts don't need an anti-submarine because they're designed to allow you to fold over the lab belt, not slide under it.
| mhoward1 | 08-17-2012 08:17 AM |
[quote=mav1c;37842074]You don't get it. Do some more reading.
In a front end collision, 4-pt's are bad because you slide down under the lap belt. Hence why you need the anti-submarine belt.
3-pt belts don't need an anti-submarine because they're designed to allow you to fold over the lab belt, not slide under it.[/quote]
Bingo, A front end collision is exactly when you don't want a 4 point, that's where submarining happens and you end up in the foot well.
In a front end collision, 4-pt's are bad because you slide down under the lap belt. Hence why you need the anti-submarine belt.
3-pt belts don't need an anti-submarine because they're designed to allow you to fold over the lab belt, not slide under it.[/quote]
Bingo, A front end collision is exactly when you don't want a 4 point, that's where submarining happens and you end up in the foot well.
Không có nhận xét nào:
Đăng nhận xét