| D | 08-16-2002 04:39 PM |
Viability of a 2.5RS coupe in PGT Rally?
I may be able to get my hands on a salvage title 2.5RS coupe as a possible build up for some kind of race car. Rallying is a possibility and I was wondering about the viability of a 2.5RS coupe in PGT. It seems that most of the imprezas I see are sedans and it makes sense due to the easy access of the backseat and suspension through those doors. The necessity of having a back seat in PGT also will make it that much harder to get to the suspension. Are there ways around this or is that why sedans tend to be the majority?
Thanks
Thanks
| WagonMonster | 08-16-2002 05:08 PM |
Andy and Julie Sharples up in Washington have a PGT RS Coupe and they do very well.
:)
:)
| Thug | 08-16-2002 06:17 PM |
I think you see more sedans because they're more readily available and generally cheaper. I believe Pat Richard used to rally an RS coupe.
| MGXsport | 08-16-2002 07:49 PM |
1 Attachment(s)
Here is the quietest rally car
Sharples RS coupe
Chris
[url]www.4wheelphotos.com[/url]
Sharples RS coupe
Chris
[url]www.4wheelphotos.com[/url]
| Bill Westhead | 08-17-2002 02:04 AM |
PGT 2.5RS = UFO
...at least when Pat Richard is the pilot.
2000 SCCA PGT Champion
2000 CARS PGT Champion
2000 North American Rally Cup Champion
Yeah, I'd say it's viable :D
[IMG]http://www.rocketrally.com/photos/15-rockymtn/alberni-shayne-1-SM.jpg[/IMG]
2000 SCCA PGT Champion
2000 CARS PGT Champion
2000 North American Rally Cup Champion
Yeah, I'd say it's viable :D
[IMG]http://www.rocketrally.com/photos/15-rockymtn/alberni-shayne-1-SM.jpg[/IMG]
| MattDell | 08-18-2002 02:35 AM |
OMG.
Right Click ---> Save
Right Click ---> Save
| johnfelstead | 08-18-2002 10:05 AM |
That is of course before the WRX was available. Things move on. The RS is a good car but the WRX is faster.
| Joe Longworth | 08-18-2002 01:29 PM |
One of the other reasons a sedan is more common is that the sedan is lighter than the coupe. Go figure.
| Axiochus | 08-18-2002 09:42 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by johnfelstead [/i]
[B]That is of course before the WRX was available. Things move on. The RS is a good car but the WRX is faster. [/B][/QUOTE]
Yeah, but nobody wants to run PGT in a WRX. They'd all rather run "Group Psuedo N". Besides, even when Richard won all that, the RS wasn't the PGT car to have... the 1st Gen DSM was. It wasn't the car that won, it was the cajones.
Matt.
[B]That is of course before the WRX was available. Things move on. The RS is a good car but the WRX is faster. [/B][/QUOTE]
Yeah, but nobody wants to run PGT in a WRX. They'd all rather run "Group Psuedo N". Besides, even when Richard won all that, the RS wasn't the PGT car to have... the 1st Gen DSM was. It wasn't the car that won, it was the cajones.
Matt.
| Subie Gal | 08-19-2002 11:54 AM |
I think that the RS can still be competitive on the club level in PGT...
at the pro level? nope... WRX and DSM's will win overall...
but it's a great starter car... and fun car to learn in!!
:) Jamie
[url]www.subiegalracing.com[/url]
at the pro level? nope... WRX and DSM's will win overall...
but it's a great starter car... and fun car to learn in!!
:) Jamie
[url]www.subiegalracing.com[/url]
| RallyNavvie | 08-19-2002 12:42 PM |
Hey now, the Knight Rally Subarus are 2.5RSs and they do pretty well in the ProRally :D
~Garrett
~Garrett
| Jon Bogert | 08-19-2002 02:12 PM |
In terms of competitiveness, I think that a 2.5RS can compete with 32mm restricted DSMs. WRXs are tougher, but there have been discussions about forcing them to run in Group N or Open. Look at Randy Zimmer's stage times. His car is barely faster than a PGT 2.5 RS would be.
Advantages vs. DSMs:
a) 300-400lbs lighter
b) Much better gear ratios
c) Can run smaller tires (due to a, helps a & b)
d) Excellent power curve for rally
e) No engine management headaches
f) much better handling
g) much better visability/ergonomics
PGT rules require retaining the stock turbo and ECU. This is a huge disadvantage, which hurts the DSMs power curve and drivability quite a bit.
Perennial NEDiv PGT contender Bruce Perry's talon has gone from regular top-20 overall to more like top-30 since the restrictor rule change.
On a pure horsepower event like STPR, the 2.5RS would have a tough time. I bet one could do very well at a more technical event, though.
Advantages vs. DSMs:
a) 300-400lbs lighter
b) Much better gear ratios
c) Can run smaller tires (due to a, helps a & b)
d) Excellent power curve for rally
e) No engine management headaches
f) much better handling
g) much better visability/ergonomics
PGT rules require retaining the stock turbo and ECU. This is a huge disadvantage, which hurts the DSMs power curve and drivability quite a bit.
Perennial NEDiv PGT contender Bruce Perry's talon has gone from regular top-20 overall to more like top-30 since the restrictor rule change.
On a pure horsepower event like STPR, the 2.5RS would have a tough time. I bet one could do very well at a more technical event, though.
| Difuser | 08-19-2002 06:21 PM |
RS
Look at your future for rally PGT will be gone nationally If you are going to be club build it! We have done well this year against all the turbo cars where we didn't have horsepower we worked like mad on set-up and have been steadily leaving them behind.
Good driver, good set-up, good horsepower = bad news for RS
Take any of the three out and we walk away on stage times
Dan
Crew Chief
#255 Sharples Subaru
Good driver, good set-up, good horsepower = bad news for RS
Take any of the three out and we walk away on stage times
Dan
Crew Chief
#255 Sharples Subaru
| Axiochus | 08-19-2002 06:29 PM |
Well, since we're on this subject....
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Jon Bogert [/i]
[B]Advantages vs. DSMs:
a) 300-400lbs lighter
b) Much better gear ratios
c) Can run smaller tires (due to a, helps a & b)
d) Excellent power curve for rally
e) No engine management headaches
f) much better handling
g) much better visability/ergonomics
[/B][/QUOTE]
Doesn't the restrictor only apply to National PGT and not Club? If so, than there is little (and, I'd say probably no) advantage for a RS over a DSM for Club Rally.
On the other hand, we're quickly getting to the point where the first Gen DSM's will be outlawed on the Pro Ranks because of age. Building an RS for a few years of Club PGT with some pro events up the road might not be such a bad idea... seems like there won't be so many PGT eligible cars.
Either way, my philosophy is simple. Build what you'd like, and rally it in whatever class it falls. Worry about all the particulars once you're sure that you're not going to be hitting trees and rolling every event. Now, if I can only get my hands on that Stratos...
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Jon Bogert [/i]
[B]Advantages vs. DSMs:
a) 300-400lbs lighter
b) Much better gear ratios
c) Can run smaller tires (due to a, helps a & b)
d) Excellent power curve for rally
e) No engine management headaches
f) much better handling
g) much better visability/ergonomics
[/B][/QUOTE]
Doesn't the restrictor only apply to National PGT and not Club? If so, than there is little (and, I'd say probably no) advantage for a RS over a DSM for Club Rally.
On the other hand, we're quickly getting to the point where the first Gen DSM's will be outlawed on the Pro Ranks because of age. Building an RS for a few years of Club PGT with some pro events up the road might not be such a bad idea... seems like there won't be so many PGT eligible cars.
Either way, my philosophy is simple. Build what you'd like, and rally it in whatever class it falls. Worry about all the particulars once you're sure that you're not going to be hitting trees and rolling every event. Now, if I can only get my hands on that Stratos...
| Thug | 08-19-2002 07:58 PM |
Pat was kicking DSM and Jap. spec WRX arse in his old RS. There's no reason why someone else with some driving ability couldnt do the same. An RS rally car is going to be alot more reliable than a DSM. And Club Rally history has proven that just finishing events consistently will help towards a championship alot more than just having a fast car. I think Jon's list of advantages are all very valid. And if you're going with a '00 or '01 RS you'll also have the advantage of a rear LSD as well. Which is something most DMS dont have.
| randy zimmer | 08-19-2002 08:09 PM |
pgt
Buy my car and do the work to make it a legal PGT (easy with some effort and a donor car for interior details and title).
Check my times against Bob Henderson and then enter all the events like he did.
Enter and finish - that's the key to PGT.
rz
Check my times against Bob Henderson and then enter all the events like he did.
Enter and finish - that's the key to PGT.
rz
| iceweazel | 08-20-2002 02:34 PM |
>at the pro level? nope... WRX and DSM's will win overall
Yes, but I'm not sure I agree. I think an RS could win overall
in PGT easily and finish in the top 10 or even 5 with the right
prep and driver.
Having co-driven in the RS that won PGT at rim before
it was sold, (Lee Reodica/Rally New York) and it was fairly quick.
Obviously it can beat a WRX as evidenced by RIM. ;)
Having spent the weekend in the car with Randy I think
a well preped RS could rock. We started the event with a
plugged cat. Check out our times. Fairly good for a stock
engine/tranny. Fixed it and then had intercom issues and
we were still in the top 15 before the transmision went.
I believe if Randy found the right sponsors and had the
right prep he'd slide into the top 10 every event in the RS.
Ed
Yes, but I'm not sure I agree. I think an RS could win overall
in PGT easily and finish in the top 10 or even 5 with the right
prep and driver.
Having co-driven in the RS that won PGT at rim before
it was sold, (Lee Reodica/Rally New York) and it was fairly quick.
Obviously it can beat a WRX as evidenced by RIM. ;)
Having spent the weekend in the car with Randy I think
a well preped RS could rock. We started the event with a
plugged cat. Check out our times. Fairly good for a stock
engine/tranny. Fixed it and then had intercom issues and
we were still in the top 15 before the transmision went.
I believe if Randy found the right sponsors and had the
right prep he'd slide into the top 10 every event in the RS.
Ed
| Joe Longworth | 08-20-2002 02:57 PM |
Speaking of PGT:
Two rules interest me. SCCA Rule book clearly states that there are no updating/backdating of cars. So am I to understand that building up an older Impreza (say 93 base model) to 2000 2.5 RS spec is verboten?
And in terms of mounting points on suspension. In order to install Camber/Caster plates on in Impreza from Ground Control, some cutting is involved. Would that be considered an altered suspension mounting point? So are STI hats the best choice available to comply w/ PGT at this point?
Two rules interest me. SCCA Rule book clearly states that there are no updating/backdating of cars. So am I to understand that building up an older Impreza (say 93 base model) to 2000 2.5 RS spec is verboten?
And in terms of mounting points on suspension. In order to install Camber/Caster plates on in Impreza from Ground Control, some cutting is involved. Would that be considered an altered suspension mounting point? So are STI hats the best choice available to comply w/ PGT at this point?
| randy zimmer | 08-20-2002 06:23 PM |
suspension
Joe:
Until you find a valid reason to change to a camber plate - leave it alone.
I can not understand the thought processes I read here.
"I want to buy a cage cheap" and "I want to make unnecessary (expensive) changes, what should I buy."
Scheeesh.
We're working with dirt and forward bite folks, a bit of negative to build cornering force doesn't make the car launch.
RZ
Until you find a valid reason to change to a camber plate - leave it alone.
I can not understand the thought processes I read here.
"I want to buy a cage cheap" and "I want to make unnecessary (expensive) changes, what should I buy."
Scheeesh.
We're working with dirt and forward bite folks, a bit of negative to build cornering force doesn't make the car launch.
RZ
| makeway | 08-20-2002 08:54 PM |
What about...
How about a WRX engine in a older Impreza body? Best of both worlds? or to much trouble? what class would you have to run it in, and would it be competative in that class? Just asking.:confused:
| Thug | 08-20-2002 09:46 PM |
You'd have to run in Open Class. Unless you got an actual Gr. N WRX from over seas.
| makeway | 08-20-2002 10:09 PM |
Open class
In open class can you go nuts with HP, like in group-B or what?:devil: :devil: :devil:
| Thug | 08-20-2002 10:21 PM |
Not really. There is a restrictor plate, 32mm, IIRC. More importantly, you will get your ass handed to you by those guys with last names like Lovell, Higgins, Choiniere and Burke for a good long time.
| makeway | 08-20-2002 10:33 PM |
Sweet
Sweeeeet!running with the big boys! Does anybody run open class with those guys now? BIG BALLIN! and who's to say you can't be competative...I'm not saying I got mad driving skills, but I'm shure someone out there could give them a run for the money in a private car, or am I just off my rocker? Watching to manny WRC tapes from the golden years when 2 door Impreza's ruled the stage's... that's my dream...whats yours? Sorry about the HP maddness, I keep telling myself "Brakes and suspention first!" I'm loseing it!:devil: :devil: :devil:
| slidewaysmike | 08-21-2002 12:52 AM |
[QUOTE]but I'm shure someone out there could give them a run for the money in a private car,[/QUOTE]
Actually your current points leader is a private car. Albeit an [U]EXTREMELY[/U] well funded private car, with one of the best drivers in the U.K. (dare I say in the world?) behind the wheel.
So you see, your not completely off your rocker, just a little crazy. :lol:
It would be cool for someone to build or get a GC8 WRX and run it for the whole season as opposed to just one or two events. Right Karl?
We need F. Dor to come back here with his car for a season.
Mike
Actually your current points leader is a private car. Albeit an [U]EXTREMELY[/U] well funded private car, with one of the best drivers in the U.K. (dare I say in the world?) behind the wheel.
So you see, your not completely off your rocker, just a little crazy. :lol:
It would be cool for someone to build or get a GC8 WRX and run it for the whole season as opposed to just one or two events. Right Karl?
We need F. Dor to come back here with his car for a season.
Mike
| Joe Longworth | 08-21-2002 11:36 AM |
Re: suspension
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by randy zimmer [/i]
[B]Joe:
Until you find a valid reason to change to a camber plate - leave it alone.
I can not understand the thought processes I read here.
"I want to buy a cage cheap" and "I want to make unnecessary (expensive) changes, what should I buy."
Scheeesh.
We're working with dirt and forward bite folks, a bit of negative to build cornering force doesn't make the car launch.
RZ [/B][/QUOTE]
I'm not looking at it from an adjustment standpoint. Have you _seen_ the ground-control camber plates? Those things milled out of billet aluminum and are solid as all get out. I'm looking at it from a 'adds durability' standpoint.
[B]Joe:
Until you find a valid reason to change to a camber plate - leave it alone.
I can not understand the thought processes I read here.
"I want to buy a cage cheap" and "I want to make unnecessary (expensive) changes, what should I buy."
Scheeesh.
We're working with dirt and forward bite folks, a bit of negative to build cornering force doesn't make the car launch.
RZ [/B][/QUOTE]
I'm not looking at it from an adjustment standpoint. Have you _seen_ the ground-control camber plates? Those things milled out of billet aluminum and are solid as all get out. I'm looking at it from a 'adds durability' standpoint.
| Difuser | 08-21-2002 01:59 PM |
Camber Plates
You still have to have a whole lotta stage miles to really tear up those strut tops, and the ground control involves [B]cutting[/B]and [B]bolting[/B] aluminium to a [B]steel [/B] strut top with three or four bolts which become the weakest points
| Thug | 08-21-2002 02:17 PM |
If you're looking to increase durability why not just weld some steel to the strut towers? Cheaper and easier, IMO.
| makeway | 08-21-2002 09:16 PM |
A Little...
I'm not crazy!Someone told me if you say that you are crazy. So here we go, I even talked my sister into being my co-driver!:devil: I'm going to hell in rally car!
| Red-Impreza | 08-22-2002 11:17 AM |
[QUOTE]2 door Impreza's ruled the stage's... that's my dream...whats yours? [/QUOTE]
Supercharged 2.5 RS in open class (club). Instant torque at any speed in almost any gear.
:devil:
Supercharged 2.5 RS in open class (club). Instant torque at any speed in almost any gear.
:devil:
| DCRallyDave | 08-22-2002 06:31 PM |
Zimmer comparision
Yeah, you can only drive a RS fast like Randy only if you ARE Randy.
Its Randy that makes it go fast. Of course he doesn't have the speed on the straights or start control launches, but he doesn't lift for turns and knows how to carry the speed he has.
The 2.5 RS can only hold its own in any class now on really twisty or slippy stages. But its a great car to learn with and has enormous potential to update to an Open class car when you are ready for more power.
Dave Shindle
Its Randy that makes it go fast. Of course he doesn't have the speed on the straights or start control launches, but he doesn't lift for turns and knows how to carry the speed he has.
The 2.5 RS can only hold its own in any class now on really twisty or slippy stages. But its a great car to learn with and has enormous potential to update to an Open class car when you are ready for more power.
Dave Shindle
| randy zimmer | 08-23-2002 05:47 PM |
zimmer rebuff
Dave, owe you a beer...
I bought a Subaru because it has no vices.
It is tough, quick enough and handles and stops well.
You can't learn by sitting on the side of the road and you don't want to spend your effort learning how to deal with a car that doesn't work. Because when you DO get a good handling car, you'd have to re-learn everything.
Getting a car because it is fast or can win isn't always the best route. Get a GOOD car, a RELIABLE car and worry about the fast later. The trees don't care.
rz
I bought a Subaru because it has no vices.
It is tough, quick enough and handles and stops well.
You can't learn by sitting on the side of the road and you don't want to spend your effort learning how to deal with a car that doesn't work. Because when you DO get a good handling car, you'd have to re-learn everything.
Getting a car because it is fast or can win isn't always the best route. Get a GOOD car, a RELIABLE car and worry about the fast later. The trees don't care.
rz
| randy zimmer | 08-23-2002 05:50 PM |
makeway's sister
Sorry, but when I went to rally school, the first thing they said was that two people without a clue is not good. Find a good, experienced navigator to start out. Navs, find a reliable driver that knows the ropes and stays out of the bushes.
One newbie per car is enough.
rz
One newbie per car is enough.
rz
Không có nhận xét nào:
Đăng nhận xét