| rexrat | 01-16-2002 11:12 AM |
Want to drive with Subaru Rally Team?
Its easy, just hook up with Vermont SportsCar...i just realized that if Ramana is now driving for Subaru, and last year Karl Scheible got a ride, then that means two years in a row a driver from Vermont SportsCar has been hired to drive for Subaru...crazy stuff.
| Subie Gal | 01-16-2002 11:23 AM |
yeah sure..
that and an extra $40-50K to contribute
towards your ride.... :rolleyes:
not having this conversation again...
J.
[url]www.subiegal.com[/url]
that and an extra $40-50K to contribute
towards your ride.... :rolleyes:
not having this conversation again...
J.
[url]www.subiegal.com[/url]
| PsychO | 01-16-2002 01:18 PM |
[img]http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif[/img]
hahaha
hahaha
| sumit | 01-16-2002 01:29 PM |
if you have 10K + to shell out per event, you can become a celebrity. Yes, skill have something to do with it too...but mainly money. And if you're shelling out that much money, you better get something in return. So basically, you're paying to be a factory driver. You're paying to be a US Performance Rally Star.
Now, If I"m a factory driver for a team, I expect to get paid not pay them, but thats the way that the US Rally series is being developed at this time of boom and it will become a norm.
so much for taking the sprot to the next level....yeah, take it to the next level financially. And drivers with more skills and less money just watch the drivers with more money and less skill walk away with glory.
Now, If I"m a factory driver for a team, I expect to get paid not pay them, but thats the way that the US Rally series is being developed at this time of boom and it will become a norm.
so much for taking the sprot to the next level....yeah, take it to the next level financially. And drivers with more skills and less money just watch the drivers with more money and less skill walk away with glory.
| WRXSTiVer5 | 01-16-2002 05:35 PM |
I'm not sure why this received the negative reaction that it got:confused: I thought Ramana did very well last year considering it was only his second year of rallying. This one just like the last thread about this turned into money. How do you guys know that Ramana is paying? I haven't read or heard anything about this anywhere. Do you know something I don't know and if you do please quote the source. I think it doesn't do the sport any good to pass false info and create circumstances that don't exist. There are some here who really support rallying in the US but by acting like this do the sport a great disfavor.
Rallying costs money, period. Go fast parts are expensive and to win a championship you have to be fast. Ramana is fast. He was top GrpN Privateer last year, second year out. Why can't this be accepted for what it is. I'm a Lagemann fan myself. I know I'm probably in the minority here as most folks seem to be blind to Ramana's speed and potential. Instead of knocking Ramana why don't you go talk to him, meet him at the next event you're at. When I met him he was really laid back and cool, not arrogant at all. I even got lucky during a press photo shoot to go for a ride with him, HE IS AWESOME in the car.
Rallying costs money, period. Go fast parts are expensive and to win a championship you have to be fast. Ramana is fast. He was top GrpN Privateer last year, second year out. Why can't this be accepted for what it is. I'm a Lagemann fan myself. I know I'm probably in the minority here as most folks seem to be blind to Ramana's speed and potential. Instead of knocking Ramana why don't you go talk to him, meet him at the next event you're at. When I met him he was really laid back and cool, not arrogant at all. I even got lucky during a press photo shoot to go for a ride with him, HE IS AWESOME in the car.
| Subie Gal | 01-16-2002 05:46 PM |
well...
to put it bluntly....
pat richard is the fastest privateer out there...
pat richard BEAT THE PANTS off ramana at the testing
that was done in the uk...
but is PAT RICHARD driving for Subaru?
no... why??? cuz it's all about the $$$$...
things like [i]this[/i] do a DIS FAVOR to OUR BELOVED SPORT
MANUFACTURERS taking over our PRO RALLY SERIES
instead of CREATING THEIR OWN does a DIS FAVOR
to OUR BELOVED SPORT
LIMITING who can and cant compete without a sub series
for the little man to compete in.... is a DISFAVOR to the sport...
i understand the sport is growing...
and change can be a good thing...
but dont TAKE OVER our series and drive us out!
create your own and let us have our sub series...
yeah... here i go again...
but obviously i feel strongly about this :D
Jamie (the un-opinionated)
[url]www.subiegal.com[/url]
to put it bluntly....
pat richard is the fastest privateer out there...
pat richard BEAT THE PANTS off ramana at the testing
that was done in the uk...
but is PAT RICHARD driving for Subaru?
no... why??? cuz it's all about the $$$$...
things like [i]this[/i] do a DIS FAVOR to OUR BELOVED SPORT
MANUFACTURERS taking over our PRO RALLY SERIES
instead of CREATING THEIR OWN does a DIS FAVOR
to OUR BELOVED SPORT
LIMITING who can and cant compete without a sub series
for the little man to compete in.... is a DISFAVOR to the sport...
i understand the sport is growing...
and change can be a good thing...
but dont TAKE OVER our series and drive us out!
create your own and let us have our sub series...
yeah... here i go again...
but obviously i feel strongly about this :D
Jamie (the un-opinionated)
[url]www.subiegal.com[/url]
| Jon Bogert | 01-16-2002 05:52 PM |
sumit, you speak the truth! Never have I wanted $60k to spend on an EVO so badly as at Sand Blast. My grandmother could win a rally in Seamus' car, and she's dead. Drislane and Nash are good, but those cars help more than a little.
WRXSTiVer5, don't get defensive--everyone knows Ramana is a great talent. But, put him in a $10k talon that breaks every other event and handles so poorly that he crashes all the time, and see if anybody notices how good he is.
WRXSTiVer5, don't get defensive--everyone knows Ramana is a great talent. But, put him in a $10k talon that breaks every other event and handles so poorly that he crashes all the time, and see if anybody notices how good he is.
| WRXSTiVer5 | 01-16-2002 06:14 PM |
:confused: Sorry, I didn't mean to sound defensive. I just don't understand all of the criticism, sarcasm, and cynicism. Everyone quotes "sources" regarding speed and money and spreads it as fact. Patrick is awesome and is very deserving of a drive. He has one with the Canada team and suredly deserves it. I don't mean anything against him, I think he is a fantastic driver. Please don't see me as defensive or on the attack. Just posting my opinion on this.
| GarySheehan | 01-16-2002 06:32 PM |
I'm surprised by all of the negativity surrounding the money aspect of this sport.
Autoracing is one of the most expensive sports in the world. And the nature of autoracing will pretty much keep it that way. This is not a sport where every team is a self-sufficient business like the football, baseball and basketball teams. They own venues that they can charge spectators to sit in, they have large catalogs of promotional items their fans can buy, and they belong to a large regulated body.
Autoracing is all about spending money. It's a one way proposition. Someone or something provides money. Just about all of that money gets spent. The next year more money is needed. That's why the sport is dependent on sponsorship. It's also why people with less skill than money get in the seat before the very talented pennyless people. The teams need the money.
The number of teams out there that are self-sufficient and are able to scour the world for the top talent are few and far between. Everyone else needs cash.
Instead of complaining about it, how about posting some suggestions to get around this problem?
Or start playing tennis...
Gary
Autoracing is one of the most expensive sports in the world. And the nature of autoracing will pretty much keep it that way. This is not a sport where every team is a self-sufficient business like the football, baseball and basketball teams. They own venues that they can charge spectators to sit in, they have large catalogs of promotional items their fans can buy, and they belong to a large regulated body.
Autoracing is all about spending money. It's a one way proposition. Someone or something provides money. Just about all of that money gets spent. The next year more money is needed. That's why the sport is dependent on sponsorship. It's also why people with less skill than money get in the seat before the very talented pennyless people. The teams need the money.
The number of teams out there that are self-sufficient and are able to scour the world for the top talent are few and far between. Everyone else needs cash.
Instead of complaining about it, how about posting some suggestions to get around this problem?
Or start playing tennis...
Gary
| TBreu007 | 01-16-2002 06:53 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by GarySheehan [/i]
[B]
Instead of complaining about it, how about posting some suggestions to get around this problem?
Gary [/B][/QUOTE]
That WOULD be nice...
[B]
Instead of complaining about it, how about posting some suggestions to get around this problem?
Gary [/B][/QUOTE]
That WOULD be nice...
| Subie Gal | 01-16-2002 07:04 PM |
Gary your thoughts are appreciated - definately!
But the form of racing that you compete in and
SCCA ProRally are 2 totally different things...
We dont have several divisions to race in... we have 2 -
Club rally and Pro rally...
now the manufacturers are taking over our pro rally,
leaving us no where to go.....
I understand eventually the need for a a true,
PROFESSIONAL and $$$$ founded series.....
yet i dont see how this will work....
as when there's not enough entry fees to make pro rally go...
& when there's no workers to make pro rally go...
because the manufacturers are limiting who can compete...
where WILL it go?
they are driving the little man out...
and...
are you telling me that FORD, TOYOTA, HONDUH, etc are suddenly going to pop up and compete in the newly formed MANUFACTURERS CHAMPIONSHIP? I dont think so.
my fear/opinion is this....
I think that the Manufacturers and SCCA-know-it-alls
are taking over the Pro Rally series... no privateers wanted...
and i think soon they will find themselves completely,
and utterly.... alone... with ummmm no support at all.
what i'd like to see?
Well if the Pro rally does become the manufacturer mega elite rally series...
i'd like to see there become a 3rd series - somewhere between Club and Pro Rally.... somewhere for a newbie to aspire to get to!
but is there enough $$ and workers to make this happen?
is the USA really rally ready?
i dunno. whole thing makes my head hurt. :confused:
want to learn more?
[url]www.specialstage.com[/url]
that's all we talk about over there...
all day long - i'm not the only one a tad concerned...
j.
[url]www.subiegal.com[/url]
But the form of racing that you compete in and
SCCA ProRally are 2 totally different things...
We dont have several divisions to race in... we have 2 -
Club rally and Pro rally...
now the manufacturers are taking over our pro rally,
leaving us no where to go.....
I understand eventually the need for a a true,
PROFESSIONAL and $$$$ founded series.....
yet i dont see how this will work....
as when there's not enough entry fees to make pro rally go...
& when there's no workers to make pro rally go...
because the manufacturers are limiting who can compete...
where WILL it go?
they are driving the little man out...
and...
are you telling me that FORD, TOYOTA, HONDUH, etc are suddenly going to pop up and compete in the newly formed MANUFACTURERS CHAMPIONSHIP? I dont think so.
my fear/opinion is this....
I think that the Manufacturers and SCCA-know-it-alls
are taking over the Pro Rally series... no privateers wanted...
and i think soon they will find themselves completely,
and utterly.... alone... with ummmm no support at all.
what i'd like to see?
Well if the Pro rally does become the manufacturer mega elite rally series...
i'd like to see there become a 3rd series - somewhere between Club and Pro Rally.... somewhere for a newbie to aspire to get to!
but is there enough $$ and workers to make this happen?
is the USA really rally ready?
i dunno. whole thing makes my head hurt. :confused:
want to learn more?
[url]www.specialstage.com[/url]
that's all we talk about over there...
all day long - i'm not the only one a tad concerned...
j.
[url]www.subiegal.com[/url]
| Thug | 01-16-2002 07:09 PM |
So why wasnt Ramana winning when he was driving the Galant VR-4 that he put over a $100K into? This isnt all just speculation, I only live 3 hours away from VT SportsCar. Sure he's a great driver, but then again I probably would be too if I had that much money given to me and could ruin expen$ive cars and take driving schools all day.
| Subie Gal | 01-16-2002 07:15 PM |
hold on guys... Ramana has learned loads...
not trying to take anything away from him at all...!
I'm sure he put in a fair share of ca$h along the way...
regardless....
he's going to do just fine - and i hope he does!
he's now representing Subaru....
it's the whole manufacturer-coming-in-and-taking-over
thing that drives me mad....
they should start their own elite series...
not take over the one we've built up for years...
Subie *ok i'll shut up now* Gal
not trying to take anything away from him at all...!
I'm sure he put in a fair share of ca$h along the way...
regardless....
he's going to do just fine - and i hope he does!
he's now representing Subaru....
it's the whole manufacturer-coming-in-and-taking-over
thing that drives me mad....
they should start their own elite series...
not take over the one we've built up for years...
Subie *ok i'll shut up now* Gal
| Future Subaru Driver1 | 01-16-2002 07:58 PM |
woah!!
i personally don't think it's so much the Manufactures fault as it is the SCCA's fault. IMHO SCCA saw the sport growing with the introduction of Factory Teams "Subaru" and at the same time SCCA reached out there hand for the $$$ that was about to come in....Magically Prorally is getting huge TV coverage, Drivers from other countries, and huge amounts of Cash.
the Factory Teams (Subaru) are trying to find a series to promote their products so they can sell more cars and gain market apeal. Right now ProRally is the best series in which the manufactures can compete in, and you can't blame them for doing so.
Factory Teams aren't doing a disservice to ProRally. they are innocent in this matter in my opinion. SCCA is the body at fault in this case. because...they are allowing for this to happen in their seires.
No. a new series isn't going to pop up out of the blue and magically there will be 60 entries of Professional Drivers with Factory backing competeing. and should it?? probably not...because there is not really a need for one now.
what i believe should happen is SCCA needs to stop being greedy and put their hands back in their pockets. and clamp down on a few things...they need to find a way that the Privateer can compete with the Factory Teams, and establish a level playing field
what i think should happen and i would LOVE to see is a "spec" series.
where...say everyone must run a certain compound and tread pattern of tire. and then establish a maximum number of sets a team may use during the event (say 2). This will level the playing field greatly as part of the advantage of a Factory team is you have brand new tires all the time simply because the budget is there.....this will also lower the costs of Rallying...if SCCA can go to Michelin and make an agreement with them. if they make a single 13, 14, 15 inch inch tire of the same tire for every rally. Michelin will beable to sell more tires and will therefore beable to sell them cheaper at a reduced price to competitors.
another idea would be to Find a certain Suspension Manufacturer to build suspension set-ups to for all popular cars (WRX, EVO, Talon/Eclipse, GC8 Impreza) another advantage of the Factory Teams is that they usually have New or Close to suspension at every rally/stage and it's definately an advantage. so if everyone has to run the same suspension set-up then it comes down to a race of car set-up. This will also drive the prices down as say DMS could now have their Suspensions on every cay in the pro rally circuit and in turn sell more units, and then decrease the price.
These are just my pesonal ideas, they might work on might not. feel free to flame away if you so choose (i got the nomex zipped up)
Chris,
the Factory Teams (Subaru) are trying to find a series to promote their products so they can sell more cars and gain market apeal. Right now ProRally is the best series in which the manufactures can compete in, and you can't blame them for doing so.
Factory Teams aren't doing a disservice to ProRally. they are innocent in this matter in my opinion. SCCA is the body at fault in this case. because...they are allowing for this to happen in their seires.
No. a new series isn't going to pop up out of the blue and magically there will be 60 entries of Professional Drivers with Factory backing competeing. and should it?? probably not...because there is not really a need for one now.
what i believe should happen is SCCA needs to stop being greedy and put their hands back in their pockets. and clamp down on a few things...they need to find a way that the Privateer can compete with the Factory Teams, and establish a level playing field
what i think should happen and i would LOVE to see is a "spec" series.
where...say everyone must run a certain compound and tread pattern of tire. and then establish a maximum number of sets a team may use during the event (say 2). This will level the playing field greatly as part of the advantage of a Factory team is you have brand new tires all the time simply because the budget is there.....this will also lower the costs of Rallying...if SCCA can go to Michelin and make an agreement with them. if they make a single 13, 14, 15 inch inch tire of the same tire for every rally. Michelin will beable to sell more tires and will therefore beable to sell them cheaper at a reduced price to competitors.
another idea would be to Find a certain Suspension Manufacturer to build suspension set-ups to for all popular cars (WRX, EVO, Talon/Eclipse, GC8 Impreza) another advantage of the Factory Teams is that they usually have New or Close to suspension at every rally/stage and it's definately an advantage. so if everyone has to run the same suspension set-up then it comes down to a race of car set-up. This will also drive the prices down as say DMS could now have their Suspensions on every cay in the pro rally circuit and in turn sell more units, and then decrease the price.
These are just my pesonal ideas, they might work on might not. feel free to flame away if you so choose (i got the nomex zipped up)
Chris,
| GarySheehan | 01-16-2002 08:15 PM |
SubieGal,
Sounds like you are disenchanted with your sanctioning body. Ultimately, your series will end up where the series organizers want it to end up. If they are being greedy and think that catering to the manufacturers will be better for them than the average racing Joe, then that's where it will end up, despite all the pleading from it's current members. But that's what capitalism is all about. All you can do is hope your current sanctioning body cares about you, or, find/make a sanctioning body that does.
But my comments were more directed to the $$$ getting the seats. I don't think that will ever change.
Gary
Sounds like you are disenchanted with your sanctioning body. Ultimately, your series will end up where the series organizers want it to end up. If they are being greedy and think that catering to the manufacturers will be better for them than the average racing Joe, then that's where it will end up, despite all the pleading from it's current members. But that's what capitalism is all about. All you can do is hope your current sanctioning body cares about you, or, find/make a sanctioning body that does.
But my comments were more directed to the $$$ getting the seats. I don't think that will ever change.
Gary
| WRXSTiVer5 | 01-16-2002 08:40 PM |
Subie Gal- I understand your concerns. But, the manufacturers are only running a half a dozen cars out of at least 50+ entries. Grp N is wide open. Prod GT is wide open. Even Open class is a closely fought battle. Look at Burke, he almost had it. They are not taking ProRally away from anyone, at least I don't see it this way. You need to figure out a way to make it work for everybody. As far as I know no one is restricting anyone. It's true that the days of jumping in a $5000 beater and winning overall are over, but that's good isn't it? Motorsport is expensive. If you want a nationally recognized sport that gets TV coverage it's not going to happen with $10,000 cars. There is a class for that and the sport needs it but it can't be top level stuff. It's a feeder. Every form of racing in the world has feeder series that bring the drivers up. Nothing wrong with that. There's no reason why manufacturers and privateers can't compete together in SCCA ProRally.
I know the whole budget thing is super frustrating. I myself am a chair bound rally driver with no budget but a very strong desire to go rallying. I don't hold it against anybody that the sport is expensive. It's the way it is. What I don't like is when people hold things against others just because they aren't in the same situation. Karl and Ramana both earned the drive they got. KARL GAVE US SUBY FANS THE GRP N CHAMPIONSHIP. Isn't that enough? Why do you have to snivel about him paying. Same with Ramana. Second in Grp N IN A SUBARU. If you haven't physically seen the bank check, signed, don't spread it as fact.
Again, I'm not being defensive. I'm just saying how I see it. I've been following rallying for years and the sport does not need division over things that aren't even true.
I know the whole budget thing is super frustrating. I myself am a chair bound rally driver with no budget but a very strong desire to go rallying. I don't hold it against anybody that the sport is expensive. It's the way it is. What I don't like is when people hold things against others just because they aren't in the same situation. Karl and Ramana both earned the drive they got. KARL GAVE US SUBY FANS THE GRP N CHAMPIONSHIP. Isn't that enough? Why do you have to snivel about him paying. Same with Ramana. Second in Grp N IN A SUBARU. If you haven't physically seen the bank check, signed, don't spread it as fact.
Again, I'm not being defensive. I'm just saying how I see it. I've been following rallying for years and the sport does not need division over things that aren't even true.
| sumit | 01-16-2002 08:56 PM |
ok, my original post was not about the fact that the factory riders are buying their rides in factory teams. I'm a little dischanted that the factory ride should be for some one who is talented enough. If some one (Ramana, Karl etc) have the money to spend to drive a car that is built by the best in business....hey, more power to them
but I don't see why they should be wearing a Subaru driving suit. Lets look at WRC....which one of the top drivers is paying to drive the car??? Prodrive has their All Star team that they sell their cars to and provide service and support...and that has nothing to do with the factory SWRT
and if Subaru wanted to start this practice of buy your factory ride, why is Mark Lovell getting paid to drive in the US Pro Rally. Why are us americans paying for the glory of being a factory driver in our sport and prodrive is using that money to pay an old Brit to come and stomp the series.
logically, it just doensn't make sense. If you are a factory driver, you should get paid...not pay. Yes, you might spend a lot of money to enter events privately to prove yourself...but that should be it...and thats what Ramana did...but to pay money only so that he can be in the *official Subaru Rally Team USA*...that is what i don't agree with
Nothing against Ramana or Karl or anyone for that matter....they are all great guys. I'm just against what's happening.
The redefinition of the term : factory driver
- Sumit
but I don't see why they should be wearing a Subaru driving suit. Lets look at WRC....which one of the top drivers is paying to drive the car??? Prodrive has their All Star team that they sell their cars to and provide service and support...and that has nothing to do with the factory SWRT
and if Subaru wanted to start this practice of buy your factory ride, why is Mark Lovell getting paid to drive in the US Pro Rally. Why are us americans paying for the glory of being a factory driver in our sport and prodrive is using that money to pay an old Brit to come and stomp the series.
logically, it just doensn't make sense. If you are a factory driver, you should get paid...not pay. Yes, you might spend a lot of money to enter events privately to prove yourself...but that should be it...and thats what Ramana did...but to pay money only so that he can be in the *official Subaru Rally Team USA*...that is what i don't agree with
Nothing against Ramana or Karl or anyone for that matter....they are all great guys. I'm just against what's happening.
The redefinition of the term : factory driver
- Sumit
| WRXSTiVer5 | 01-16-2002 09:18 PM |
Maybe I didn't make it clear enough before.
A lot of people are "saying" that they are paying. You and loads of other people here take it as fact because Subie Gal and DMS USA say they are being paid. How do they know? Subie Gal just went to the Ring and got to drive it. Does that mean she's rich, does it mean she "paid" Jon F to drive his car? I'm going to start a rumor right now that Subie Gal "paid" to drive Jon's car and never would have even been considered unless she forked over cash because she isn't fast enough or worthy to do it any other way. We all know that's stupid because we all Know Subie Gal and Jon. Well the same is true for Karl and Ramana, you don't know them so there is no way for you to know whether they are paying. If I told you they weren't/hadn't would you believe me? It's always more exciting to make it controversial. "Ramana got his pants beat by Pat", "Ramana drove to the bank the fastest", "Karl kicked in $50,000". We don't need this for the sport. It isn't true and it doesn't help matters.
A lot of people are "saying" that they are paying. You and loads of other people here take it as fact because Subie Gal and DMS USA say they are being paid. How do they know? Subie Gal just went to the Ring and got to drive it. Does that mean she's rich, does it mean she "paid" Jon F to drive his car? I'm going to start a rumor right now that Subie Gal "paid" to drive Jon's car and never would have even been considered unless she forked over cash because she isn't fast enough or worthy to do it any other way. We all know that's stupid because we all Know Subie Gal and Jon. Well the same is true for Karl and Ramana, you don't know them so there is no way for you to know whether they are paying. If I told you they weren't/hadn't would you believe me? It's always more exciting to make it controversial. "Ramana got his pants beat by Pat", "Ramana drove to the bank the fastest", "Karl kicked in $50,000". We don't need this for the sport. It isn't true and it doesn't help matters.
| Subie Gal | 01-16-2002 10:24 PM |
hey you guys have some great ideas!
and i do believe SCCA is making us suffer on this one...
i sure hope that things work out.
i hope they listen to the common joe racer...
and i hope the manufacturers dont drive us out -
with SCCA's approval...
**(as for he said she said ramana this n that...
i dont care about all that... wish him all the luck in the world.
no more to say about that...
you're right it doesnt matter...)**
i'm just ticked at the WAY things are changing.
not the FACT that they are and have to, change.
They (SCCA) could do it so much better than they are...
[quote]what i believe should happen is SCCA needs to stop being greedy and put their hands back in their pockets. and clamp down on a few things...they need to find a way that the Privateer can compete with the Factory Teams, and establish a level playing field [/quote]
guess that's what i was trying to say, without having the ball balls to say it :D excellent thought!!!!
jamie
[url]www.subiegal.com[/url]
and i do believe SCCA is making us suffer on this one...
i sure hope that things work out.
i hope they listen to the common joe racer...
and i hope the manufacturers dont drive us out -
with SCCA's approval...
**(as for he said she said ramana this n that...
i dont care about all that... wish him all the luck in the world.
no more to say about that...
you're right it doesnt matter...)**
i'm just ticked at the WAY things are changing.
not the FACT that they are and have to, change.
They (SCCA) could do it so much better than they are...
[quote]what i believe should happen is SCCA needs to stop being greedy and put their hands back in their pockets. and clamp down on a few things...they need to find a way that the Privateer can compete with the Factory Teams, and establish a level playing field [/quote]
guess that's what i was trying to say, without having the ball balls to say it :D excellent thought!!!!
jamie
[url]www.subiegal.com[/url]
| iceweazel | 01-16-2002 11:10 PM |
Regarding the original observation:
What shop did Prodrive use to run the season out of all year?
Vermont Sportscar. amazing co-incidence, no? :rolleyes:
Nothing personal,WRXSti5, but some of the posters here
compete and know the folks in question. How often
are you at the events competing and working with
us? I think some of us know what we're talking about.
We're out there competing once or twice a month, and
as the community is INSANELY smaller than most other
motorsports its very much closer. I think my last 'regional'
road race had 400 or so participants I hear? Last weekends'
club rally in SC had ~40 cars (well 39, one didn't start)
It's a very well known fact that Karl paid for his spot.
I've not heard regarding Ramana, but I'd ass-u-me the
same thing is true. Rallying ain't cheap. (well it is
compared to offshore powerboat racing anyway)
People fear change. Things are changing BIG time here.
Sure things are changing mightely in the SCCA rally area.
Most folks are just pissed at the almost TOTAL lack of
information and feedback coming from the PRB and
the current rally director. Zip. nada. maru. nichts. nothing.
It would be easier to take if they had at the least listed
WHY they wanted to change some things (g2/g5 merge, etc)
than just try and ram them through the board of directors
with no explanation. This left a LOT of people angry for
many reasons. (car age, group merges, rules, etc,etc)
SCCA rally was always (in the past) more like a big
(albiet ugly) family than a sport. Not so anymore.
It no longer even feels like a club at club rallys.
People are now more likely to run you over than
stop for a held-out tow rope. This weekend was
proof.
In the next 2 years the "pro" rally will have a much
different look if things keep going the way they are now.
Someone kick Felstead and ask him what he thinks about
"clubman" rallying in the UK over the past couple years
and the what the folks there think happened.
Several of the chaps who came over last year mentioned
they saw the same thing happening here but without a
one-make series to help.
Hey Jon I'll bet your grandma wouldn't drive down
to a 5 way and end up back on the stage going the wrong
way like SOME evo drivers, either! Stage captain blamed
Drislane. (oh big surprise THERE) Cripes MY dead-grandma
could out drive some of these recent bozos ("what time are
you in? What time should I be in? Can you show me
how my odo works? Whens our service? How many stage
miles will we run?")
Ed
What shop did Prodrive use to run the season out of all year?
Vermont Sportscar. amazing co-incidence, no? :rolleyes:
Nothing personal,WRXSti5, but some of the posters here
compete and know the folks in question. How often
are you at the events competing and working with
us? I think some of us know what we're talking about.
We're out there competing once or twice a month, and
as the community is INSANELY smaller than most other
motorsports its very much closer. I think my last 'regional'
road race had 400 or so participants I hear? Last weekends'
club rally in SC had ~40 cars (well 39, one didn't start)
It's a very well known fact that Karl paid for his spot.
I've not heard regarding Ramana, but I'd ass-u-me the
same thing is true. Rallying ain't cheap. (well it is
compared to offshore powerboat racing anyway)
People fear change. Things are changing BIG time here.
Sure things are changing mightely in the SCCA rally area.
Most folks are just pissed at the almost TOTAL lack of
information and feedback coming from the PRB and
the current rally director. Zip. nada. maru. nichts. nothing.
It would be easier to take if they had at the least listed
WHY they wanted to change some things (g2/g5 merge, etc)
than just try and ram them through the board of directors
with no explanation. This left a LOT of people angry for
many reasons. (car age, group merges, rules, etc,etc)
SCCA rally was always (in the past) more like a big
(albiet ugly) family than a sport. Not so anymore.
It no longer even feels like a club at club rallys.
People are now more likely to run you over than
stop for a held-out tow rope. This weekend was
proof.
In the next 2 years the "pro" rally will have a much
different look if things keep going the way they are now.
Someone kick Felstead and ask him what he thinks about
"clubman" rallying in the UK over the past couple years
and the what the folks there think happened.
Several of the chaps who came over last year mentioned
they saw the same thing happening here but without a
one-make series to help.
Hey Jon I'll bet your grandma wouldn't drive down
to a 5 way and end up back on the stage going the wrong
way like SOME evo drivers, either! Stage captain blamed
Drislane. (oh big surprise THERE) Cripes MY dead-grandma
could out drive some of these recent bozos ("what time are
you in? What time should I be in? Can you show me
how my odo works? Whens our service? How many stage
miles will we run?")
Ed
| Robin2 | 01-16-2002 11:18 PM |
Rally in North America is a rich man/women's sport (or should I say Hobby)......
Period.....
Sponsorships doesn't even exist (or barely) and prize money for winning is a joke......
When I was in Maine rally (2001) at the banquet, Besner (from Quebec) finished 2nd in Group N class (9th overall in a field of 120 teams) and got a check for $75US...
That paid his bar tab for a while.....
Robin
NCSC
Period.....
Sponsorships doesn't even exist (or barely) and prize money for winning is a joke......
When I was in Maine rally (2001) at the banquet, Besner (from Quebec) finished 2nd in Group N class (9th overall in a field of 120 teams) and got a check for $75US...
That paid his bar tab for a while.....
Robin
NCSC
| sumit | 01-17-2002 02:36 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Robin2 [/i]
[B]Rally in North America is a rich man/women's sport (or should I say Hobby)......
[/B][/QUOTE]
I totally agree...and if thats the case then why even bother running the series...jsut have an open auction in January to see who has the most money to win the championship..and that'll settle it.
Seamus Burke did a great job of holding off Lovell for the most part all through the year...thats competition and I respect that but the rally series, last time i checked, is called sports car club of AMERICA ProRally Championship. not a battle of old timers from the BRITISH championship.
Subaru came and upped the level of competition and look what it did to the sport, now we have the Higgins competing in the SCCA PRO RALLY for 2002, and we have Mark Lovell and i'm sure Richard Tuthill will be at a few events.
What are we turning into??? a series where all these brits can settle their lost battles that could not be settled in UK.
I'm nowhere competitive as these guys....and i know it...but I AM a member of SCCA and I don't have a problem with these Brits fighting their battles...as long as they fight it without compromising the SCCA ProRally Championship.
IF you're not a legal resident of the United States and you want to run in our rallies...you can only run in FIA classes as long as you have a FIA license. Leave the open, pgt, p, g2 and g5 to us americans.
What does SCCA get out of letting all of this happens...I would say nothing...except on paper it looks good. If I was to write an article on US ProRally in 2001, I would say that our series is so competitive and so great that likes of Mark Lovell and Richard Tuthill and Jeremy Easson came to compete in our series. Fact of the matter is that its not competitive and Subaru realised that and got Mark Lovell and won the championship.
Its all about how the media percieves it...and thats what is going to help the people in keeping their jobs @ SCCA. But if the changes done to the ProRally are so effective, why don't we have it on the speedvision calendar (at the time of writing this post). If we were so good, shouldn't Speedvision be jumping on the oppurtunity to air our program?
All of the changes that are happening are in favoring the top 1-5% of the group. I don't understand how will it be confusing for the TV viewers to adjust to the 5 classes that we have, when our neighbours (Canada) have 5 classes too and believe me, their coverage on the rally is WWWWAAAYYY much better than ours. How come they don't have all these problems as we do...because they are still a club...
Subaru and Yokohama has been sponsoring the Canadian Championship rallies for years but there has never been a rush to acquire high dollar cars to be competitive. They still show all class leaders during every broadcast....Pat Richard ran PGT in 2001 in Canada. And here in the US, if you want to be on TV, you better have an Open Class Subaru or a Gr N Subaru...thats BS
Admit it, we've been sold to the highest bidder
ok, flame on...
[B]Rally in North America is a rich man/women's sport (or should I say Hobby)......
[/B][/QUOTE]
I totally agree...and if thats the case then why even bother running the series...jsut have an open auction in January to see who has the most money to win the championship..and that'll settle it.
Seamus Burke did a great job of holding off Lovell for the most part all through the year...thats competition and I respect that but the rally series, last time i checked, is called sports car club of AMERICA ProRally Championship. not a battle of old timers from the BRITISH championship.
Subaru came and upped the level of competition and look what it did to the sport, now we have the Higgins competing in the SCCA PRO RALLY for 2002, and we have Mark Lovell and i'm sure Richard Tuthill will be at a few events.
What are we turning into??? a series where all these brits can settle their lost battles that could not be settled in UK.
I'm nowhere competitive as these guys....and i know it...but I AM a member of SCCA and I don't have a problem with these Brits fighting their battles...as long as they fight it without compromising the SCCA ProRally Championship.
IF you're not a legal resident of the United States and you want to run in our rallies...you can only run in FIA classes as long as you have a FIA license. Leave the open, pgt, p, g2 and g5 to us americans.
What does SCCA get out of letting all of this happens...I would say nothing...except on paper it looks good. If I was to write an article on US ProRally in 2001, I would say that our series is so competitive and so great that likes of Mark Lovell and Richard Tuthill and Jeremy Easson came to compete in our series. Fact of the matter is that its not competitive and Subaru realised that and got Mark Lovell and won the championship.
Its all about how the media percieves it...and thats what is going to help the people in keeping their jobs @ SCCA. But if the changes done to the ProRally are so effective, why don't we have it on the speedvision calendar (at the time of writing this post). If we were so good, shouldn't Speedvision be jumping on the oppurtunity to air our program?
All of the changes that are happening are in favoring the top 1-5% of the group. I don't understand how will it be confusing for the TV viewers to adjust to the 5 classes that we have, when our neighbours (Canada) have 5 classes too and believe me, their coverage on the rally is WWWWAAAYYY much better than ours. How come they don't have all these problems as we do...because they are still a club...
Subaru and Yokohama has been sponsoring the Canadian Championship rallies for years but there has never been a rush to acquire high dollar cars to be competitive. They still show all class leaders during every broadcast....Pat Richard ran PGT in 2001 in Canada. And here in the US, if you want to be on TV, you better have an Open Class Subaru or a Gr N Subaru...thats BS
Admit it, we've been sold to the highest bidder
ok, flame on...
| jmullan | 01-17-2002 03:25 AM |
<rant>
Okay, so let's say that I go to all the organizer meetings for a certain Minnesota ProRally. What should I be doing to ensure your happiness about the series? If I know members of the performance rally board, as well as people who have a lot of sway on the others, what do I say to them?
"Don't sell out ProRally!"
"Make it National and Divisional ProRally again!"
"Get us more coverage of lower level cars"
"What is National doing for us, anyway?"
Doesn't it cost $100k for a team to run the whole series anyway? Isn't that what sponsors are for? Aren't factory teams just fully-sponsored rides? What difference does it make if Karl Scheible spends $50k of his own money to run a "regular" open class car or a "factory" open class car.
For that matter, does no one remember Hyundai's domination? How about that guy who had the Cosworth? Motorsports are won by cubic dollars.
How about National and Divisional ClubRally?
What has National [I]ever[/I] done for us? Come to Minnesota and look at the difference between Headwaters and Ojibwe. You can decide if it is worth it.
P.S.:
Don't look at the organizers glaringly when it comes to tv coverage. The production company that does the shows has a lock on it somehow. The ProRally organizers are just glad to not have to pay $5k per event anymore. I don't know what national thinks about it. I'm just glad that Tim Winker knows how to pronounce people's names. Also, he's been rallying for xxxx years, but whatever.
Also:
Next you're gonna complain about unfair competition within Open Prepared in SCCA-LOL region rallycross. You're just going to have to face it, my 1996 Impreza (normally aspirated 2.2L AWD) is not going to beat Todd Jarvey's Galant VR4, no matter how hard you might root for me. It won't beat Rhys Millen either, especially if people don't count the $#(%&load of cones that he hit at the Triple Caution Rallycross. $#*%#$ where were his penalties? Did he even pay? What the $#&%#*?
</rant>
Okay, so let's say that I go to all the organizer meetings for a certain Minnesota ProRally. What should I be doing to ensure your happiness about the series? If I know members of the performance rally board, as well as people who have a lot of sway on the others, what do I say to them?
"Don't sell out ProRally!"
"Make it National and Divisional ProRally again!"
"Get us more coverage of lower level cars"
"What is National doing for us, anyway?"
Doesn't it cost $100k for a team to run the whole series anyway? Isn't that what sponsors are for? Aren't factory teams just fully-sponsored rides? What difference does it make if Karl Scheible spends $50k of his own money to run a "regular" open class car or a "factory" open class car.
For that matter, does no one remember Hyundai's domination? How about that guy who had the Cosworth? Motorsports are won by cubic dollars.
How about National and Divisional ClubRally?
What has National [I]ever[/I] done for us? Come to Minnesota and look at the difference between Headwaters and Ojibwe. You can decide if it is worth it.
P.S.:
Don't look at the organizers glaringly when it comes to tv coverage. The production company that does the shows has a lock on it somehow. The ProRally organizers are just glad to not have to pay $5k per event anymore. I don't know what national thinks about it. I'm just glad that Tim Winker knows how to pronounce people's names. Also, he's been rallying for xxxx years, but whatever.
Also:
Next you're gonna complain about unfair competition within Open Prepared in SCCA-LOL region rallycross. You're just going to have to face it, my 1996 Impreza (normally aspirated 2.2L AWD) is not going to beat Todd Jarvey's Galant VR4, no matter how hard you might root for me. It won't beat Rhys Millen either, especially if people don't count the $#(%&load of cones that he hit at the Triple Caution Rallycross. $#*%#$ where were his penalties? Did he even pay? What the $#&%#*?
</rant>
| Jon Bogert | 01-17-2002 10:24 AM |
TV coverage? What TV coverage? Check your Speedvision schedule and show me where the ProRally coverage for 2002 is! Hint: nowhere.
I wonder at what point the pure motives of improving U.S. rally take (or took) a back seat?
I wonder at what point the pure motives of improving U.S. rally take (or took) a back seat?
| Subie Gal | 01-17-2002 10:36 AM |
hey Jon...
i cant wait to meet you...
i want to shake your hand!!!! (and Daphne's too!)
:D
j.
[url]www.subiegal.com[/url]
i cant wait to meet you...
i want to shake your hand!!!! (and Daphne's too!)
:D
j.
[url]www.subiegal.com[/url]
| RallyNavvie | 01-17-2002 10:53 AM |
OK so from what I'm hearing here what you want is for the sponsored or factory teams to take it somewhere else. Perhaps they should just start their own series strictly under the FIA and ditch the SCCA completely like the Ramada Inn rally? Think what that would mean. For years we've wanted more exposure of the general public to the sport to try to make it known to the American public. I was disappointed Hyundai never made a big deal about their participation. In fact I has blasted by the fact that Volkswagen beat them all to the punch when they aired their rally commercial on broadcast television. Things started taking off then. Subaru hasn't really done something of that magnitude yet, not on broadcast television anyway. But they did bring more people into the sport. Ever so often when I'm talk to someone and tell them I drive a Subaru they ask me if I'm interested in rally. A couple years ago they wouldn't have a clue what a Subaru was, let alone rally. Wasn't the whole point of having these expensive teams come in was to bring publicity to the sport? It has, trust me. The standing room only crowd on top of Brockway this year is proof of that. But I think now we're realizing that with publicity come changes, and changes that we probably won't like.
We still have club, no one has taken that away from us (yet). We still have somewhere to play. I rally for fun, not because I want to become famous someday beccause of it. If I wanted that I'd go over to the UK and start codriving over there; be one of the only Yank rally guys in Europe. Do I have something to look forward to? Yeah, podium finishes in Club events! If you do well consistently in Club events and do better than a majority of Pro guys in the same class than you're bound to get noticed by a sponsored team. You can then take their offer if you really want to take over Pro. What I'm looking forward to this season is Mark Utecht stomping the factory teams at their own game. I'd love to see him at the top of the list over the factory teams. I have nothing against the factory teams, it would just be a notice to the SCCA that there are better drivers than the ones who are running for manufacturers.
The only thing that disappoints me is the lack of television coverage now. What happened to it? Since Speedvision is changing hands they were pressured to drop filming ov rallies? That would be an outrage to the sport. We should stop all this infighting amongst ourselves and focus it on something of mutual interest like television coverage. It doesn't make any sense that out coverage gets cut just as rally really starts to take off in popularity.
~Garrett
We still have club, no one has taken that away from us (yet). We still have somewhere to play. I rally for fun, not because I want to become famous someday beccause of it. If I wanted that I'd go over to the UK and start codriving over there; be one of the only Yank rally guys in Europe. Do I have something to look forward to? Yeah, podium finishes in Club events! If you do well consistently in Club events and do better than a majority of Pro guys in the same class than you're bound to get noticed by a sponsored team. You can then take their offer if you really want to take over Pro. What I'm looking forward to this season is Mark Utecht stomping the factory teams at their own game. I'd love to see him at the top of the list over the factory teams. I have nothing against the factory teams, it would just be a notice to the SCCA that there are better drivers than the ones who are running for manufacturers.
The only thing that disappoints me is the lack of television coverage now. What happened to it? Since Speedvision is changing hands they were pressured to drop filming ov rallies? That would be an outrage to the sport. We should stop all this infighting amongst ourselves and focus it on something of mutual interest like television coverage. It doesn't make any sense that out coverage gets cut just as rally really starts to take off in popularity.
~Garrett
| Jon Bogert | 01-17-2002 11:05 AM |
Garrett,
Luckily, there is a new organization, CNAR, which says they'll be producing a North American FIA rally series.
Mark Utecht is a great guy and an absolutely first class driver. So is Andrew Havas and they had no trouble stomping on his EVO and WRX embarassing efforts.
The lack of TV coverage might have more to do with SCCA and manufacturers politics than Speedvisions format change.
Luckily, there is a new organization, CNAR, which says they'll be producing a North American FIA rally series.
Mark Utecht is a great guy and an absolutely first class driver. So is Andrew Havas and they had no trouble stomping on his EVO and WRX embarassing efforts.
The lack of TV coverage might have more to do with SCCA and manufacturers politics than Speedvisions format change.
| WRXSTiVer5 | 01-17-2002 01:46 PM |
[quote]The lack of TV coverage has more to do with SCCA and manufacturers politics than Speedvisions format change.[/quote]
[quote]TV coverage? What TV coverage? Check your Speedvision schedule and show me where the ProRally coverage for 2002 is! Hint: nowhere. [/quote]
You seem to know what you're talking about. I wonder why a manufacturer would drop hundred of thousands of dollars into a car and then not promote it with TV coverage? Or do I remember Subaru and Hyundai helping out with television coverage expenses last year. "brought to you by Hyundai/ Subaru" seems to be words I heard alot last year. This season has not even begun yet and the doomsayers are at every street corner yelling at the top of their lungs, " It's over, we're doomed" . What's going to happen when you're watching it on TV on Speedchannel. Is anybody going to come back and say "sorry guys I overeacted. I guess I really didn't know" NO. Why don't you wait and see like the rest of us. It aint started yet.
[quote]TV coverage? What TV coverage? Check your Speedvision schedule and show me where the ProRally coverage for 2002 is! Hint: nowhere. [/quote]
You seem to know what you're talking about. I wonder why a manufacturer would drop hundred of thousands of dollars into a car and then not promote it with TV coverage? Or do I remember Subaru and Hyundai helping out with television coverage expenses last year. "brought to you by Hyundai/ Subaru" seems to be words I heard alot last year. This season has not even begun yet and the doomsayers are at every street corner yelling at the top of their lungs, " It's over, we're doomed" . What's going to happen when you're watching it on TV on Speedchannel. Is anybody going to come back and say "sorry guys I overeacted. I guess I really didn't know" NO. Why don't you wait and see like the rest of us. It aint started yet.
| Jon Bogert | 01-17-2002 01:57 PM |
Did you know about SOA stiffing a couple of organizers towards the end of last season? Do you know about the unkept promises and bare knuckle negotiation these beneficent manufacturers are inflicting on the SCCA? I know I routinely bust on SCCA's rally folks, but they're dealing with some pretty capricious companies.
I hope that marketing weenies from Subaru, Hyundai and (especially) Mitsubishi write some big checks--not just make promises.
I hope that marketing weenies from Subaru, Hyundai and (especially) Mitsubishi write some big checks--not just make promises.
| WRXSTiVer5 | 01-17-2002 02:08 PM |
Fair enough. I guess we'll just have to wait and see. I'm just depressed by all of the chicken little " the sky is falling" stuff concerning every aspect of rallying in the US. It's in the drivers, TV coverage, organizers. You'd think it was a soap opera. I can't think of any sport where backstabbing and malicious gossip is more prevelant than F1 but it is arguably the pinnacle of motorsport at the same time. I haven't figured that one out yet. Let's give our sport some time and encouragement and do what we can instead of ripping it all apart. That's all I'm saying.
| jmullan | 01-17-2002 02:27 PM |
Um, hearsay? You mean rumors? Hmm. Don't trust rally rumors. I mean it. Rally gossip is the worst.
| jmullan | 01-17-2002 03:12 PM |
CNAR? the only hit that I got searching google for "CNAR rally" comes up with:
[url]http://www.carsrally.ca/2001/news/e10052001a.html[/url]
And the SCCA is part of that. Just another piece of information.
Championship North American Rally (CNAR): (The name works in all three languages while NARC is a word with a negative meaning in Spanish.)
There are rumours out there about a new FIA Zone Championship Rally Series for North America, but there will NOT be a North America Zone Championship in 2002. However, it looks like there will be a 'self declared' championship series involving Canada, Mexico and the United States. I attended an organizational meeting in Chicago in August as the representative from ASN Canada FIA. An agreement was reached whereby there would be a seven event series that would run in 2002 and that an evaluation would be made part way through the season whether to ask the FIA, through the three ASNs involved, for recognition as an official FIA Zone Championship for 2003. As well, each of the events would be evaluated as to their suitability to be part of the series. The events will follow the FIA general prescriptions including supplementary route notes and reconnaissance. During 2002, the events will attempt to comply with as many of the FIA requirements as possible with full compliance in 2003 including being internationally listed and requiring international licences. The events would be open to Group A and N plus any of the National classes in the three countries. The events will be:
Feb. 1-3 Rallye de Quebec Quebec City, Quebec
Mar. 15-17 International Cherokee Trails Rally Chattanooga, Tennessee
Apr. 13-15 Corona Rally Mexico (Rally America) Leon, Mexico
July 5-7 Rally de las 24 Hours Mexico City, Mexico
Sept. 5-7 Wild West Rally Olympia; Olympia, Washington
Oct. 24-27 Rallye International de Charlevoix La Malbaie, Quebec
Dec. 12-15 Ramada Express International Rally Laughlin, Nevada
The work on this proposed series is continuing and, as further developments happen, more information will be forth coming. There will be implications that could affect both the North American Rally Cup and the Subaru Canadian Rally Championship. Those implications are detailed in Section Two of this message and your input is requested.
[QUOTE]Jon Bogert
Luckily, there is a new organization, CNAR, which will be producing a North American FIA rally series. Strict FIA rules, international exposure, etc, etc, all without disrupting the established U.S. events.
[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.carsrally.ca/2001/news/e10052001a.html[/url]
And the SCCA is part of that. Just another piece of information.
Championship North American Rally (CNAR): (The name works in all three languages while NARC is a word with a negative meaning in Spanish.)
There are rumours out there about a new FIA Zone Championship Rally Series for North America, but there will NOT be a North America Zone Championship in 2002. However, it looks like there will be a 'self declared' championship series involving Canada, Mexico and the United States. I attended an organizational meeting in Chicago in August as the representative from ASN Canada FIA. An agreement was reached whereby there would be a seven event series that would run in 2002 and that an evaluation would be made part way through the season whether to ask the FIA, through the three ASNs involved, for recognition as an official FIA Zone Championship for 2003. As well, each of the events would be evaluated as to their suitability to be part of the series. The events will follow the FIA general prescriptions including supplementary route notes and reconnaissance. During 2002, the events will attempt to comply with as many of the FIA requirements as possible with full compliance in 2003 including being internationally listed and requiring international licences. The events would be open to Group A and N plus any of the National classes in the three countries. The events will be:
Feb. 1-3 Rallye de Quebec Quebec City, Quebec
Mar. 15-17 International Cherokee Trails Rally Chattanooga, Tennessee
Apr. 13-15 Corona Rally Mexico (Rally America) Leon, Mexico
July 5-7 Rally de las 24 Hours Mexico City, Mexico
Sept. 5-7 Wild West Rally Olympia; Olympia, Washington
Oct. 24-27 Rallye International de Charlevoix La Malbaie, Quebec
Dec. 12-15 Ramada Express International Rally Laughlin, Nevada
The work on this proposed series is continuing and, as further developments happen, more information will be forth coming. There will be implications that could affect both the North American Rally Cup and the Subaru Canadian Rally Championship. Those implications are detailed in Section Two of this message and your input is requested.
[QUOTE]Jon Bogert
Luckily, there is a new organization, CNAR, which will be producing a North American FIA rally series. Strict FIA rules, international exposure, etc, etc, all without disrupting the established U.S. events.
[/QUOTE]
| Future Subaru Driver1 | 01-17-2002 03:39 PM |
good stuff.
anyone have an opinion on my "SPEC" idea?
| mwilliams | 01-17-2002 03:48 PM |
I find it so funny that people have complained for years that they cannot get decent sponsors for their rally programs b/c US rally is not on the radar screen of race fans.
Now, Subaru/SCCA brings some marketability into the sport and everyone bitches. How many of you "privateers" plan to run ALL the SCCA PRORally events this year?
How is spending $$ to win the PRORally series different than most other forms of racing. Big dogs ALWAYS get on TV b/c they spend big $$$ on big programs...all to sell/market products.
Do you think Subaru really cares about rallying in the US??? Hell no...they want to sell cars and Prodrive wants to sell cars. Plain and simple.
It is a business. Get over it and move on.
Now, Subaru/SCCA brings some marketability into the sport and everyone bitches. How many of you "privateers" plan to run ALL the SCCA PRORally events this year?
How is spending $$ to win the PRORally series different than most other forms of racing. Big dogs ALWAYS get on TV b/c they spend big $$$ on big programs...all to sell/market products.
Do you think Subaru really cares about rallying in the US??? Hell no...they want to sell cars and Prodrive wants to sell cars. Plain and simple.
It is a business. Get over it and move on.
| Thug | 01-17-2002 03:50 PM |
This wasnt very hard to find, it was posted in this forum
[url]http://www.cnarally.org/[/url]
| jmullan | 01-17-2002 04:23 PM |
[QUOTE]Luckily, there is a new organization, CNAR, which will be producing a North American FIA rally series. Strict FIA rules, international exposure, etc, etc, all without disrupting the established U.S. events. [/QUOTE]
I'm sorry, I searched google and specialstage.com, but not our own boards.
[url]http://www.cnarally.org/[/url]
Cherokee Trails and the Wild West ProRally are both SCCA events. That's my point - that was the piece of information that I was inserting - CNAR is just an alliance between the SCCA, CARS, ASRG, and the CMR
I'm sorry, I searched google and specialstage.com, but not our own boards.
[url]http://www.cnarally.org/[/url]
Cherokee Trails and the Wild West ProRally are both SCCA events. That's my point - that was the piece of information that I was inserting - CNAR is just an alliance between the SCCA, CARS, ASRG, and the CMR
| Jon Bogert | 01-17-2002 04:39 PM |
mwilliams, you can't be THE mwilliams, right? Otherwise you'd likely know more than I do about this. :D Perhaps I'll just post to a rally forum under "jbuffum"--that won't cause any confusion.
To your point mwilliams, there are two issues:
1) SCCA hijacking ProRally from the competitors.
2) SCCA mismanaging the relationship with the manufacturers such that the manufacturers effectively run the series with little or no gain for the competitors.
Nobody questions the goals of the manufacturers. The trick is to negotiate skillfully to make them pay as dearly as possible for the benefit of using ProRally to sell their cars.
All of us rallyists would LOVE to see a WRC event in the U.S. but not at the expense of our existing events/series.
To your point mwilliams, there are two issues:
1) SCCA hijacking ProRally from the competitors.
2) SCCA mismanaging the relationship with the manufacturers such that the manufacturers effectively run the series with little or no gain for the competitors.
Nobody questions the goals of the manufacturers. The trick is to negotiate skillfully to make them pay as dearly as possible for the benefit of using ProRally to sell their cars.
All of us rallyists would LOVE to see a WRC event in the U.S. but not at the expense of our existing events/series.
| jmullan | 01-17-2002 05:20 PM |
[QUOTE][QUOTE]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cherokee Trails and the Wild West ProRally are both SCCA events.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[/QUOTE]
They were last year... THAT's true.
[QUOTE]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CNAR is just an alliance between the SCCA, CARS, ASRG, and the CMR
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[/QUOTE]
Again, you're making an assumption here. The SCCA did send someone to the first "official" meeting--what's less clear is whether that someone was invited.
Just wait and see. This could go either way, but don't think for a minute that the SCCA is in the driver's seat.
[/QUOTE]
Okay, then, I'll ask the people that I know what the frell is going on.
I think that I would have heard something if the centerpiece of ProRally (Cherokee Trails) were about to secede from the SCCA.
And when did I imply that the SCCA would be "in the driver's seat"
I pointed out that it was not a new sanctioning body but an alliance of four groups.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cherokee Trails and the Wild West ProRally are both SCCA events.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[/QUOTE]
They were last year... THAT's true.
[QUOTE]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CNAR is just an alliance between the SCCA, CARS, ASRG, and the CMR
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[/QUOTE]
Again, you're making an assumption here. The SCCA did send someone to the first "official" meeting--what's less clear is whether that someone was invited.
Just wait and see. This could go either way, but don't think for a minute that the SCCA is in the driver's seat.
[/QUOTE]
Okay, then, I'll ask the people that I know what the frell is going on.
I think that I would have heard something if the centerpiece of ProRally (Cherokee Trails) were about to secede from the SCCA.
And when did I imply that the SCCA would be "in the driver's seat"
I pointed out that it was not a new sanctioning body but an alliance of four groups.
| jblaine | 01-17-2002 05:45 PM |
Every time this comes up, I read. It's puzzling to me, because I can't seem to relate to most peoples' feelings on it, therefore it's interesting to me to try to relate to.
Disclaimer: I'm an outsider looking in.
It seems to me that any "Pro-level" rally series in the US will not exist for long without a foundation "lower level" rally series to generate the next generation of "Pro-level" participants. You can't sustain something you want to be big without feeding it from the bottom and middle. If the SCCA thinks they're going to, they're likely in for a rude awakening and sure, possibly at ClubRallyists' cost. At this point though, it seems delusional to me to think that screaming (out of fear of the future because change is happening), "Don't forget us!" is actually making a dent in the heads of the people looking to fund this thing. They either understand how it works by now or they're going to fail miserably.
ClubRally exists, and as I see it, is where anyone wanting to be picked up should be spending their time and winning.
What is it about ClubRally that the complaining people are so against? Nobody ever really outright answers this around here, so all anyone is left to do is speculate that the complainers are simply people who want to have a "Pro" label and be famous tomorrow morning without putting in years of top-5 results. So, if that's truly not what your hangup on ClubRally is, and you're complaining, then please... someone explain because it just doesn't add up to anything other than what I said.
Have any of the standard ClubRally events been cancelled for 2002?
Are you all geared up for winning 2002 ClubRally so that you're doing your part to make it strong? If you're not, why should the SCCA? Did you place even divisionally in 2001, 2000, and 1999?
That's all I am trying to say: If there's [b]one[/b] consistent thing that you can ideally rely on, if you consistently win at an amateur level (and I don' t mean just this year), then in the long run (let's say 3-5 years) you have to believe you'll be picked up, about to be picked up (maybe next year) and already heavily sponsored to coast/continue where you are already, assuming the US has any organized rally infrastructure still at that time. Yes, there will be people who "unfairly" got "in" ahead of their time. If you're not trying to do that already, then uhh... well...
If you can't believe in that, and set out to try to do it, then hell... give up already. It's all you have. I think it's naive to think you have anything more for them to pay attention to other than, "I placed top 5 the last 4 years."
Just my thoughts. Don't hunt me down and kill me.
------
Famous college joke:
Q: How do you tell who is a freshmen?
A: A freshmen still believes the university is run for the students.
Disclaimer: I'm an outsider looking in.
It seems to me that any "Pro-level" rally series in the US will not exist for long without a foundation "lower level" rally series to generate the next generation of "Pro-level" participants. You can't sustain something you want to be big without feeding it from the bottom and middle. If the SCCA thinks they're going to, they're likely in for a rude awakening and sure, possibly at ClubRallyists' cost. At this point though, it seems delusional to me to think that screaming (out of fear of the future because change is happening), "Don't forget us!" is actually making a dent in the heads of the people looking to fund this thing. They either understand how it works by now or they're going to fail miserably.
ClubRally exists, and as I see it, is where anyone wanting to be picked up should be spending their time and winning.
What is it about ClubRally that the complaining people are so against? Nobody ever really outright answers this around here, so all anyone is left to do is speculate that the complainers are simply people who want to have a "Pro" label and be famous tomorrow morning without putting in years of top-5 results. So, if that's truly not what your hangup on ClubRally is, and you're complaining, then please... someone explain because it just doesn't add up to anything other than what I said.
Have any of the standard ClubRally events been cancelled for 2002?
Are you all geared up for winning 2002 ClubRally so that you're doing your part to make it strong? If you're not, why should the SCCA? Did you place even divisionally in 2001, 2000, and 1999?
That's all I am trying to say: If there's [b]one[/b] consistent thing that you can ideally rely on, if you consistently win at an amateur level (and I don' t mean just this year), then in the long run (let's say 3-5 years) you have to believe you'll be picked up, about to be picked up (maybe next year) and already heavily sponsored to coast/continue where you are already, assuming the US has any organized rally infrastructure still at that time. Yes, there will be people who "unfairly" got "in" ahead of their time. If you're not trying to do that already, then uhh... well...
If you can't believe in that, and set out to try to do it, then hell... give up already. It's all you have. I think it's naive to think you have anything more for them to pay attention to other than, "I placed top 5 the last 4 years."
Just my thoughts. Don't hunt me down and kill me.
------
Famous college joke:
Q: How do you tell who is a freshmen?
A: A freshmen still believes the university is run for the students.
| Jon Bogert | 01-17-2002 05:59 PM |
Good comments/questions.
Here in the Northeast (NEDiv), the four best ClubRallies were run in conjunction with ProRallies: Main Forest and STPR. All four of those ClubRallies have been cancelled. There is currently one (1) ClubRally on the NEDiv schedule. Likely a couple more will get it together in the next couple of months, but nothing like what we lost.
Neither I nor 90% of the ProRallyists have any delusion of being "picked up" either by a team or national sponsor. I realized pretty quickly that I better keep my day job. :D The drivers who are that good, or young and ballsy enough to get that good have different priorities--I accept that. Your comments are correct for them, but not for the vast majority of us who rally for fun.
Also, I really don't care if you call it "pansy-in-a-slow-ugly-car-rally" as long as I get plenty of stage miles. It's not losing the ProRally name that counts, it's being (eventually) excluded from all the big events.
Regarding your last comment, the SCCA often forgets it's a club made up of members. Unlike students in college, we're actually supposed to have some say...
Here in the Northeast (NEDiv), the four best ClubRallies were run in conjunction with ProRallies: Main Forest and STPR. All four of those ClubRallies have been cancelled. There is currently one (1) ClubRally on the NEDiv schedule. Likely a couple more will get it together in the next couple of months, but nothing like what we lost.
Neither I nor 90% of the ProRallyists have any delusion of being "picked up" either by a team or national sponsor. I realized pretty quickly that I better keep my day job. :D The drivers who are that good, or young and ballsy enough to get that good have different priorities--I accept that. Your comments are correct for them, but not for the vast majority of us who rally for fun.
Also, I really don't care if you call it "pansy-in-a-slow-ugly-car-rally" as long as I get plenty of stage miles. It's not losing the ProRally name that counts, it's being (eventually) excluded from all the big events.
Regarding your last comment, the SCCA often forgets it's a club made up of members. Unlike students in college, we're actually supposed to have some say...
| jmullan | 01-17-2002 06:10 PM |
Here in CenDiv, Clubrallies are multiplying like rabbits because of the wonderful volunteers and organizers who spend large amounts of time and money.
Maybe you go sabotage some of your 100 car fields. Get 'em down to 50 again and there will be room for the Club guys.
Maybe you go sabotage some of your 100 car fields. Get 'em down to 50 again and there will be room for the Club guys.
| jblaine | 01-17-2002 06:44 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Jon Bogert [/i]
[B]Here in the Northeast (NEDiv), the four best ClubRallies were run in conjunction with ProRallies: Main Forest and STPR. All four of those ClubRallies have been cancelled. There is currently one (1) ClubRally on the NEDiv schedule. Likely a couple more will get it together in the next couple of months, but nothing like what we lost.[/b][/quote]OOF. I was unaware of that. Very interesting.[quote][b]Your comments are correct for them, but not for the vast majority of us who rally for fun.
...
Also, I really don't care if you call it "pansy-in-a-slow-ugly-car-rally" as long as I get plenty of stage miles. It's not losing the ProRally name that counts, it's being (eventually) excluded from all the big events.[/b][/quote]That's refreshing to hear (the 1st part). So, I guess what I have to ask when combining the top part of the quote and last sentence is: What is it about ProRally that's so much more attractive to you that you care about being excluded from it? Is it the courses and challenge? Something else?
I know it can be a hassle to explain things that are second nature to you to newbies, so thank you for your response already.
[quote][b]Regarding your last comment, the SCCA often forgets it's a club made up of members. Unlike students in college, we're actually supposed to have some say... [/B][/QUOTE]Oh yeah! Good point. I'd lost sight of that.
[B]Here in the Northeast (NEDiv), the four best ClubRallies were run in conjunction with ProRallies: Main Forest and STPR. All four of those ClubRallies have been cancelled. There is currently one (1) ClubRally on the NEDiv schedule. Likely a couple more will get it together in the next couple of months, but nothing like what we lost.[/b][/quote]OOF. I was unaware of that. Very interesting.[quote][b]Your comments are correct for them, but not for the vast majority of us who rally for fun.
...
Also, I really don't care if you call it "pansy-in-a-slow-ugly-car-rally" as long as I get plenty of stage miles. It's not losing the ProRally name that counts, it's being (eventually) excluded from all the big events.[/b][/quote]That's refreshing to hear (the 1st part). So, I guess what I have to ask when combining the top part of the quote and last sentence is: What is it about ProRally that's so much more attractive to you that you care about being excluded from it? Is it the courses and challenge? Something else?
I know it can be a hassle to explain things that are second nature to you to newbies, so thank you for your response already.
[quote][b]Regarding your last comment, the SCCA often forgets it's a club made up of members. Unlike students in college, we're actually supposed to have some say... [/B][/QUOTE]Oh yeah! Good point. I'd lost sight of that.
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