| Lightning Jack | 08-25-2002 03:11 PM |
What is up with Tommi?
he used to be good now he is no good :( Solberg is kicking his ass bigtime
| Thumper23 | 08-25-2002 03:13 PM |
Its not just Tommi, the whole Subaru team has seem to have been struck with a whole ****load of bad luck. Subaru as a whole has been doing bad.
| Subie Gal | 08-25-2002 03:21 PM |
it's not tommi...
he's still one of the best...
it's the car prep.... the car itself... the mechanics...
how would YOU like to go to make a hpn corner on a tarmac
rally and have the EBRAKE snap off in your hand??? :confused:
swrt needs to take more care in their car prep IMHO...
crazy things have been happening as of late...
and Solberg... well i say he WILL be a world champ sometime in the next few years... but he's nobody to blame but himself for his off in deutchland ;) he's got some learning to do, but he's come a long, long way in the past few years!
Jamie
[url]www.subiegalracing.com[/url]
[url]www.subiegal.com[/url]
he's still one of the best...
it's the car prep.... the car itself... the mechanics...
how would YOU like to go to make a hpn corner on a tarmac
rally and have the EBRAKE snap off in your hand??? :confused:
swrt needs to take more care in their car prep IMHO...
crazy things have been happening as of late...
and Solberg... well i say he WILL be a world champ sometime in the next few years... but he's nobody to blame but himself for his off in deutchland ;) he's got some learning to do, but he's come a long, long way in the past few years!
Jamie
[url]www.subiegalracing.com[/url]
[url]www.subiegal.com[/url]
| tonytiger | 08-25-2002 03:48 PM |
Tommi's still great. Recently his luck haven't shared the same adjective.
I'm also sad to say, but Subaru team this year has made many mistakes too. Broken handle of the hand brake is not the first thing that should brake on a rally car either.
The lack of power at Jyvaskyla Finland was also found after the rally, that's no way to compete in WRC.
I believe in San Remo Tommi will be the ace again. Today Tommi also tested for it.
tony
I'm also sad to say, but Subaru team this year has made many mistakes too. Broken handle of the hand brake is not the first thing that should brake on a rally car either.
The lack of power at Jyvaskyla Finland was also found after the rally, that's no way to compete in WRC.
I believe in San Remo Tommi will be the ace again. Today Tommi also tested for it.
tony
| Ethon | 08-25-2002 09:11 PM |
Jamie? You see one of the WRC Cars snap the rim? I agree...stuff like that shouldnt happen.
| CobraKLR | 08-25-2002 09:14 PM |
Tommi is getting old. He used to be the man, but the guard appears to be changing. Solberg has huge potential, Subaru just needs to hang on to him (if only they had kept Burns). My question is what is up with Peugot? They have been decimating the league.
| Thug | 08-25-2002 10:00 PM |
It's the car. The Subarus have been horrible. Every time he's crashed it's been because he was pushing 11/10ths to try and make up for a broken car. If Tommi and Solberg we're in Peugeots I honestly think they'd be 1-2. I almost wish Tommi had only signed a 1 year deal with SWRT, then he could go drive for Citroen next year and be in a car that actually doesnt break every event. I hope he doesnt end his career looking like a chump because Subaru couldnt keep the car together.
| pio!pio! | 08-26-2002 01:38 AM |
"heeee's the king of the rally roooodeo"
| bemani | 08-26-2002 01:52 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by brucelee [/i]
[B]Too bad we don't have the GC model, and Colin anymore. Ever since they changed cars, the SWRT has been going down hill.
:( [/B][/QUOTE]
What are you talking about! Burns won the driver's last year, and that was the new car!
[B]Too bad we don't have the GC model, and Colin anymore. Ever since they changed cars, the SWRT has been going down hill.
:( [/B][/QUOTE]
What are you talking about! Burns won the driver's last year, and that was the new car!
| westy66 | 08-26-2002 08:45 AM |
i dont know... i think Tommi has just LOST IT! he's just lost his edge, even when he has a great stage and his car holds up smoothly, he's still 8th fastest. and he's even said a few times that he feels like he flying and doing great, but that "he doesnt know why his times arent faster" :rolleyes:
Peter is the man, he has really grown a lot in the last couple years. i agree that he will be the Drivers Champion soon! when he pushes himself, he can either drive amazing, or do something REALLY stupid and out himself.
im just hoping that Subaru will sign Colin again!
Bob
Peter is the man, he has really grown a lot in the last couple years. i agree that he will be the Drivers Champion soon! when he pushes himself, he can either drive amazing, or do something REALLY stupid and out himself.
im just hoping that Subaru will sign Colin again!
Bob
| CobraKLR | 08-26-2002 09:36 AM |
Solberg reminds me a lot of a younger Collin McRae. He is usually either stage fastest, or crashes and burns. Real at the edge driver. I think he has huge potential.
| Subie Gal | 08-26-2002 09:49 AM |
doubt subaru will sign colin...
he's not too easy to "deal" with....
and Tommi has lost it???
since when? the first rally of this year? that he WON???
no, i dont think so.... i think more than 1/2 the issues lie in the car.
both Petter and Tommi have dealt with DNF's due to car failure this year... that's got to be frustrating and difficult to deal with.
Tommi hung in there and clawed back to 7th overall in this event... that in itself is amazing... :) I dont think he's lost anything, except maybe his patience with the car developement... ;)
Jamie
[url]www.subiegalracing.com[/url]
he's not too easy to "deal" with....
and Tommi has lost it???
since when? the first rally of this year? that he WON???
no, i dont think so.... i think more than 1/2 the issues lie in the car.
both Petter and Tommi have dealt with DNF's due to car failure this year... that's got to be frustrating and difficult to deal with.
Tommi hung in there and clawed back to 7th overall in this event... that in itself is amazing... :) I dont think he's lost anything, except maybe his patience with the car developement... ;)
Jamie
[url]www.subiegalracing.com[/url]
| CobraKLR | 08-26-2002 01:18 PM |
Collin McRae has had just as many problems with his car as Tommi has. If you use that reasoning, then McRae should be much further down in the standings.
Let's face it, Tommi is slowing down. Even when he has a perfect day is isn't setting that many fastest stages as Solberg does.
Let's face it, Tommi is slowing down. Even when he has a perfect day is isn't setting that many fastest stages as Solberg does.
| WagonMonster | 08-26-2002 01:21 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by brucelee [/i]
[B]Too bad we don't have the GC model, and Colin anymore. Ever since they changed cars, the SWRT has been going down hill.
:( [/B][/QUOTE]
Uh yeah,
Burns: Driver's Champion 2001
You're just bitter because you have an RS Automatic ;) :lol:
[B]Too bad we don't have the GC model, and Colin anymore. Ever since they changed cars, the SWRT has been going down hill.
:( [/B][/QUOTE]
Uh yeah,
Burns: Driver's Champion 2001
You're just bitter because you have an RS Automatic ;) :lol:
| imprezaf | 08-26-2002 02:19 PM |
I don't think there is anything wrong with Tommi. Sure there have been freak occurances with the car, and he's had to do 110% just to stay competitive. everyone knows that once you start driving beyond your abilities, you are bound to make mistakes. As much as I can't stand hearing Ralph Sheenen's voice, he did say something very interesting. He stated that the team has been experimenting with "test set-ups" and on the second day of the rally, they changed back to a competition set-up. Once they did that, Tommi charged very hard, and almost got 6th place.
-Mike
-Mike
| Jewbaru | 08-26-2002 02:44 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by tonytiger [/i]
[B]The lack of power at Jyvaskyla Finland was also found after the rally, that's no way to compete in WRC.
[/B][/QUOTE]
What was wrong?
[B]The lack of power at Jyvaskyla Finland was also found after the rally, that's no way to compete in WRC.
[/B][/QUOTE]
What was wrong?
| Thug | 08-26-2002 02:48 PM |
I dont understand why people think a guy who won his 4th consecutive world title just 2+ years ago could just "lose it" all of a sudden.
| Jewbaru | 08-26-2002 02:51 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by y2k4door [/i]
[B]I dont understand why people think a guy who won his 4th consecutive world title just 2+ years ago could just "lose it" all of a sudden. [/B][/QUOTE]
I think it's a mix of both. He's broken the car a few times, and the car's broken on him other times. The hand brake should not come off, but it might be one of the things the mechanics don't check. :rolleyes:
[B]I dont understand why people think a guy who won his 4th consecutive world title just 2+ years ago could just "lose it" all of a sudden. [/B][/QUOTE]
I think it's a mix of both. He's broken the car a few times, and the car's broken on him other times. The hand brake should not come off, but it might be one of the things the mechanics don't check. :rolleyes:
| ShockWave | 08-26-2002 04:32 PM |
Tommi will be a threat soon enough. One thing that hasn't been pointed out is that he just moved to a new car after spending nearly a decade with Mitsu, a team that was built specifically to suit his needs.
He's in the learning process now, learning the new car, the new team, all the quirks, how to talk to them and how to hear them. You can't just jump teams and be right up to full speed. How many drivers championships has McCrae won since leaving SWRT?
And it doesn't help that Peugot appears to be outspending the other teams by leaps and bounds. It only makes things tougher.
Tommi was my favorite driver before joining SWRT, and he's still my fav. Petter is great, but he still has some lessons in maintaining his equipment to learn, and he will. But until then, Tommi is the man!
He's in the learning process now, learning the new car, the new team, all the quirks, how to talk to them and how to hear them. You can't just jump teams and be right up to full speed. How many drivers championships has McCrae won since leaving SWRT?
And it doesn't help that Peugot appears to be outspending the other teams by leaps and bounds. It only makes things tougher.
Tommi was my favorite driver before joining SWRT, and he's still my fav. Petter is great, but he still has some lessons in maintaining his equipment to learn, and he will. But until then, Tommi is the man!
| tonytiger | 08-26-2002 04:34 PM |
Tommi himself stated the reason for the lack of power was found. It was briefly said on the sport news and the reason for it wasn't told if I remember it correctly. He said it was something like 10% of the peak power.
I was at the Jyvaskyla and there was the super special stage for audience. As you know (and did understand the event I ment :)) two cars are put on the same line. There was a farily long part of the track where one could compare the acceleration. Tommi's Subie was visibly slower no matter what. The stage was run twice and the second time it was run the competing manufacturer was Citroen driven by Loeb if I recall correctly. The first day I don't remember who was it against Tommi.
[IMG]http://www.helsinki.fi/~tjliimat/Nesterally2002/rallyaction/9.8.2002/bestones/MVC-124X.jpg[/IMG]
As that somewhat subject experience on the base, I'd said Tommi was telling the thruth.
Tommi was testing for San Remo at the second and third day. The testing included changes to power train and, as Tommi said, radical changes to the suspension. The third day the take of some of the new setup as the change of 6th place came possible. Tommi would have earned at least that... :(
Actually Jewbaru, if I understood you right, the hand brake didn't come of, but the carbon handle of hand brake snapped! I'm sorry if I understood you wrong.
This is beginning to sound like mystery phenomenoms at McLaren :)
Tommi, Solberg and Subaru will show their place again, hopefully at San Remo.
tony
I was at the Jyvaskyla and there was the super special stage for audience. As you know (and did understand the event I ment :)) two cars are put on the same line. There was a farily long part of the track where one could compare the acceleration. Tommi's Subie was visibly slower no matter what. The stage was run twice and the second time it was run the competing manufacturer was Citroen driven by Loeb if I recall correctly. The first day I don't remember who was it against Tommi.
[IMG]http://www.helsinki.fi/~tjliimat/Nesterally2002/rallyaction/9.8.2002/bestones/MVC-124X.jpg[/IMG]
As that somewhat subject experience on the base, I'd said Tommi was telling the thruth.
Tommi was testing for San Remo at the second and third day. The testing included changes to power train and, as Tommi said, radical changes to the suspension. The third day the take of some of the new setup as the change of 6th place came possible. Tommi would have earned at least that... :(
Actually Jewbaru, if I understood you right, the hand brake didn't come of, but the carbon handle of hand brake snapped! I'm sorry if I understood you wrong.
This is beginning to sound like mystery phenomenoms at McLaren :)
Tommi, Solberg and Subaru will show their place again, hopefully at San Remo.
tony
| Jewbaru | 08-26-2002 04:53 PM |
Tony, you heard me wrong. I watched the coverage, I know it snapped. What I meant was the handbrake should just snap like that, but maybe it was weakend from use, and just never checked for strength. CF will break.
| elgorey | 08-26-2002 05:27 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by brucelee [/i]
[B]Too bad we don't have the GC model, and Colin anymore. Ever since they changed cars, the SWRT has been going down hill.
[/B][/QUOTE]
riiiiight.......drivers championship in the first year of the new car....that sure is going down hill! When was the last time the GC car won anything? 95, 96?
[B]Too bad we don't have the GC model, and Colin anymore. Ever since they changed cars, the SWRT has been going down hill.
[/B][/QUOTE]
riiiiight.......drivers championship in the first year of the new car....that sure is going down hill! When was the last time the GC car won anything? 95, 96?
| Jewbaru | 08-26-2002 05:39 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by elgorey [/i]
[B]
riiiiight.......drivers championship in the first year of the new car....that sure is going down hill! When was the last time the GC car won anything? 95, 96? [/B][/QUOTE]
1995 : World Manufacturers' Champion
1996 : World Manufacturers' Champion
1997 : World Manufacturers' Champion
1998 : 3rd in Manufacturers' Championship
1999 : 2nd in Manufacturers' Championship
2000 : 3rd in Manufacturers' Championship
2001 : 4th in Manufacturers' Championship <= 1st year of the GD
:p ;) :D
[B]
riiiiight.......drivers championship in the first year of the new car....that sure is going down hill! When was the last time the GC car won anything? 95, 96? [/B][/QUOTE]
1995 : World Manufacturers' Champion
1996 : World Manufacturers' Champion
1997 : World Manufacturers' Champion
1998 : 3rd in Manufacturers' Championship
1999 : 2nd in Manufacturers' Championship
2000 : 3rd in Manufacturers' Championship
2001 : 4th in Manufacturers' Championship <= 1st year of the GD
:p ;) :D
| Jon Bogert | 08-26-2002 05:40 PM |
[QUOTE]Too bad we don't have the GC model[/QUOTE]
How can you say that?!? A bigger car is a much better choice. Look at the Peugeots--they're much bigger than all the other cars.
Ummmm... NOT! :D
The new Subaru and Mitsubishis may be more technically advanced than ever, but nowadays they belong with Skoda in the ponderous sedan category at the back of the pack. Subaru is paying the price for a base car choice and design dictated by the need to sell street cars.
Given [u]an equivalent level[/u] of preparation and technology, the smaller old style Impreza would be faster overall...
Oh, and last year was a very close finish--anyone could have won.
How can you say that?!? A bigger car is a much better choice. Look at the Peugeots--they're much bigger than all the other cars.
Ummmm... NOT! :D
The new Subaru and Mitsubishis may be more technically advanced than ever, but nowadays they belong with Skoda in the ponderous sedan category at the back of the pack. Subaru is paying the price for a base car choice and design dictated by the need to sell street cars.
Given [u]an equivalent level[/u] of preparation and technology, the smaller old style Impreza would be faster overall...
Oh, and last year was a very close finish--anyone could have won.
| elgorey | 08-26-2002 05:52 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Jewbaru [/i]
[B]
1995 : World Manufacturers' Champion
1996 : World Manufacturers' Champion
1997 : World Manufacturers' Champion
1998 : 3rd in Manufacturers' Championship
1999 : 2nd in Manufacturers' Championship
2000 : 3rd in Manufacturers' Championship
2001 : 4th in Manufacturers' Championship <= 1st year of the GD
:p ;) :D [/B][/QUOTE]
I said [b]won[/b]
97 it is then, thats a long time ago
2nd place is the first loser
[B]
1995 : World Manufacturers' Champion
1996 : World Manufacturers' Champion
1997 : World Manufacturers' Champion
1998 : 3rd in Manufacturers' Championship
1999 : 2nd in Manufacturers' Championship
2000 : 3rd in Manufacturers' Championship
2001 : 4th in Manufacturers' Championship <= 1st year of the GD
:p ;) :D [/B][/QUOTE]
I said [b]won[/b]
97 it is then, thats a long time ago
2nd place is the first loser
| Jewbaru | 08-26-2002 05:56 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by elgorey [/i]
[B]
I said [b]won[/b]
97 it is then, thats a long time ago
2nd place is the first loser [/B][/QUOTE]
and fourth place doesn't even get to hold the chapaigne. Still, 2nd is better than the GD has been able to muster.
[B]
I said [b]won[/b]
97 it is then, thats a long time ago
2nd place is the first loser [/B][/QUOTE]
and fourth place doesn't even get to hold the chapaigne. Still, 2nd is better than the GD has been able to muster.
| Ryan24 | 08-26-2002 11:50 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by CobraKLR [/i]
[B]Let's face it, Tommi is slowing down. Even when he has a perfect day is isn't setting that many fastest stages as Solberg does. [/B][/QUOTE]
I just love comments like this:lol:
Monte Carlo-Win
Sweden-Engine/Retirement
Corsica-Crashed/Retirement
Catalunya-Mechanical Problems/Retirement
Cyprus-5 Stage wins/ 3rd Place
Argentina-5 Stage wins/ Crashed/ Retirement
Acropolis-Lost Wheel/ Retirement
Safari-2 Stage Wins/ Suspension problems/ Retirement
Finland- 6th Place with Power Problems
Germany-7th Place
-SS11: 3rd Fastest time
-SS12: 2nd Fastest time
-SS14: 4th Fastest time
-SS15: 5th Fastest time
-SS16: 3rd Fastest time
-SS20: 3rd Fastest time
-SS21: 4th Fastest time
-SS22: 4th Fastest time
-SS23: 5th Fastest time
All this in a car not really know for it's tarmac ability
Especially compared to Peugeot and Citroen
BTW, let's be honest about San Remo
Peugeot 1-2-3 again:mad:
[B]Let's face it, Tommi is slowing down. Even when he has a perfect day is isn't setting that many fastest stages as Solberg does. [/B][/QUOTE]
I just love comments like this:lol:
Monte Carlo-Win
Sweden-Engine/Retirement
Corsica-Crashed/Retirement
Catalunya-Mechanical Problems/Retirement
Cyprus-5 Stage wins/ 3rd Place
Argentina-5 Stage wins/ Crashed/ Retirement
Acropolis-Lost Wheel/ Retirement
Safari-2 Stage Wins/ Suspension problems/ Retirement
Finland- 6th Place with Power Problems
Germany-7th Place
-SS11: 3rd Fastest time
-SS12: 2nd Fastest time
-SS14: 4th Fastest time
-SS15: 5th Fastest time
-SS16: 3rd Fastest time
-SS20: 3rd Fastest time
-SS21: 4th Fastest time
-SS22: 4th Fastest time
-SS23: 5th Fastest time
All this in a car not really know for it's tarmac ability
Especially compared to Peugeot and Citroen
BTW, let's be honest about San Remo
Peugeot 1-2-3 again:mad:
| skydiverman | 08-27-2002 01:46 AM |
in all fairness, dont forget that a lot of determined manufacturers that didnt used to be contenders are now fighting hard for those championships, so its not the same as it was 5 years ago.. Peugeot is hungry and trying very hard (and doing a pretty nice job of it), you cant beat all of the people all of the time.
that said, makinen has wrecked more cars this year that crash mccrae and crash the rest of the ford team combined..
that said, makinen has wrecked more cars this year that crash mccrae and crash the rest of the ford team combined..
| RA | 08-27-2002 02:18 AM |
Ever since Tommi had that big crash with Risto knocked out, he really hasnt been the same.
He did win Monte Carlo (by default actually) but a win is a win.
He won Monte because he had so much experience in it
And after that, he lost it all.
I think that crash affected him tremendously as he is more cautious and going slower. It's not like he really wants to go but it's affecting his subconsciousness.
Hey, it's better to drive a little slower and live than to drive over the cliff. . .
It affects all of us similarly. Example if you get a speeding ticket. Immediately after that, do you drive at the same speed or do you subconsciously slow down? I think most people would be affected by that ticket and slow down a bit, at least for a while.
I really dont blame Makinen for that. An event(crash) like that would affect me tremendously too.
As to the car, well, it's in the second year(?) and Burns won with the car last year so this year, the Impreza should be better right?
However, Solberg and Makinen both cant deal with it, so I have to say that the car isnt the problem.
If Burns can win with the Impreza last year, this year's car should be better.
He did win Monte Carlo (by default actually) but a win is a win.
He won Monte because he had so much experience in it
And after that, he lost it all.
I think that crash affected him tremendously as he is more cautious and going slower. It's not like he really wants to go but it's affecting his subconsciousness.
Hey, it's better to drive a little slower and live than to drive over the cliff. . .
It affects all of us similarly. Example if you get a speeding ticket. Immediately after that, do you drive at the same speed or do you subconsciously slow down? I think most people would be affected by that ticket and slow down a bit, at least for a while.
I really dont blame Makinen for that. An event(crash) like that would affect me tremendously too.
As to the car, well, it's in the second year(?) and Burns won with the car last year so this year, the Impreza should be better right?
However, Solberg and Makinen both cant deal with it, so I have to say that the car isnt the problem.
If Burns can win with the Impreza last year, this year's car should be better.
| Thug | 08-27-2002 07:18 AM |
How do you figure the crash that put Risto out slowed him down? When he did the barrel roll in Argentina this year he was going faster than anyone else and gaining back time quite quickly.
And sure, Burns did win the championship, but just barely. Really his only competitor was Marcus in the Peugeot. As both the Ford and the new Mitsu were having major problems.
And sure, Burns did win the championship, but just barely. Really his only competitor was Marcus in the Peugeot. As both the Ford and the new Mitsu were having major problems.
| Stoobaru | 08-27-2002 09:03 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Jon Bogert [/i]
[B]
How can you say that?!? A bigger car is a much better choice. Look at the Peugeots--they're much bigger than all the other cars.
Ummmm... NOT! :D [/B][/QUOTE]
EXACTLY! Aside from reliability, it's a question of rations...power/weight. The 206 is dominating since it's so small and light, and since Peugeot has worked out their reliability issues. With all the tarmac events, the WRC has become a real sprint-car series. Even if the tarmac rounds are reduced as has been discussed, acceleration will make or break a driver/car/team. You can drive perfectly and still lose out to a lesser drive in a quicker car. SWRT needs to seriously rethink their long-term vehicle strategy. I don't know if it's a totally redesigned Impreza (smaller...I hope not, I'm 6'5") or if it's a totally new model. I would prefer the latter, but in the end one of the two has to happen for them to regain top team status.
[B]
How can you say that?!? A bigger car is a much better choice. Look at the Peugeots--they're much bigger than all the other cars.
Ummmm... NOT! :D [/B][/QUOTE]
EXACTLY! Aside from reliability, it's a question of rations...power/weight. The 206 is dominating since it's so small and light, and since Peugeot has worked out their reliability issues. With all the tarmac events, the WRC has become a real sprint-car series. Even if the tarmac rounds are reduced as has been discussed, acceleration will make or break a driver/car/team. You can drive perfectly and still lose out to a lesser drive in a quicker car. SWRT needs to seriously rethink their long-term vehicle strategy. I don't know if it's a totally redesigned Impreza (smaller...I hope not, I'm 6'5") or if it's a totally new model. I would prefer the latter, but in the end one of the two has to happen for them to regain top team status.
| Thug | 08-27-2002 09:08 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Stoobaru [/i]
[B]
EXACTLY! Aside from reliability, it's a question of rations...power/weight. The 206 is dominating since it's so small and light, and since Peugeot has worked out their reliability issues. With all the tarmac events, the WRC has become a real sprint-car series. Even if the tarmac rounds are reduced as has been discussed, acceleration will make or break a driver/car/team. You can drive perfectly and still lose out to a lesser drive in a quicker car. SWRT needs to seriously rethink their long-term vehicle strategy. I don't know if it's a totally redesigned Impreza (smaller...I hope not, I'm 6'5") or if it's a totally new model. I would prefer the latter, but in the end one of the two has to happen for them to regain top team status. [/B][/QUOTE]
While I agree the new car may be too big, it's not too heavy. The car weighs 1230kgs, which is the WRC regulation minimum, just like pretty much all the other WRC cars.
[B]
EXACTLY! Aside from reliability, it's a question of rations...power/weight. The 206 is dominating since it's so small and light, and since Peugeot has worked out their reliability issues. With all the tarmac events, the WRC has become a real sprint-car series. Even if the tarmac rounds are reduced as has been discussed, acceleration will make or break a driver/car/team. You can drive perfectly and still lose out to a lesser drive in a quicker car. SWRT needs to seriously rethink their long-term vehicle strategy. I don't know if it's a totally redesigned Impreza (smaller...I hope not, I'm 6'5") or if it's a totally new model. I would prefer the latter, but in the end one of the two has to happen for them to regain top team status. [/B][/QUOTE]
While I agree the new car may be too big, it's not too heavy. The car weighs 1230kgs, which is the WRC regulation minimum, just like pretty much all the other WRC cars.
| Thug | 08-27-2002 09:37 AM |
Here are some specs, for those interested:
If you do the conversion, I believe the Impreza is almost 15 inches longer than the Peugeot and 9 inches longer than the Citroen.
[b]Subaru Impreza WRC:[/b]
Overall length: 4405mm
Overall width: 1770mm
Overall height: 1390mm
Overall weight: 1230kg(WRC regulation min.)
[b]Ford Focus RS WRC[/b]
Overall length: 4152mm
Overall width: 1770mm
Overall height: 1420mm
Overall weight: 1230kg(WRC regulation min.)
[b]Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution WRC[/b]
Overall length: 4360mm
Overall width: 1770mm
Overall height: 1550mm
Overall weight: 1230kg(WRC regulation min.)
[b]Citroen Xsara WRC[/b]
Overall length: 4167mm
Overall width: 1770mm
Overall height: 1568mm
Overall weight: 1230kg(WRC regulation min.)
[b]Peugeot 206 WRC[/b]
Overall length: 4004mm
Overall width: 1770mm
Overall height: 1370mm
Overall weight: 1230kg(WRC regulation min.)
[b]Skoda Octavia WRC[/b]
Overall length: 4511mm
Overall width: 1770mm
Overall height: 1429mm
Overall weight: 1240kg
[b]Hyundai Accent WRC2[/b]
Overall length: 4200mm
Overall width: 1770mm
Overall height: 1332mm
Overall weight: 1230kg(WRC regulation min.)
If you do the conversion, I believe the Impreza is almost 15 inches longer than the Peugeot and 9 inches longer than the Citroen.
[b]Subaru Impreza WRC:[/b]
Overall length: 4405mm
Overall width: 1770mm
Overall height: 1390mm
Overall weight: 1230kg(WRC regulation min.)
[b]Ford Focus RS WRC[/b]
Overall length: 4152mm
Overall width: 1770mm
Overall height: 1420mm
Overall weight: 1230kg(WRC regulation min.)
[b]Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution WRC[/b]
Overall length: 4360mm
Overall width: 1770mm
Overall height: 1550mm
Overall weight: 1230kg(WRC regulation min.)
[b]Citroen Xsara WRC[/b]
Overall length: 4167mm
Overall width: 1770mm
Overall height: 1568mm
Overall weight: 1230kg(WRC regulation min.)
[b]Peugeot 206 WRC[/b]
Overall length: 4004mm
Overall width: 1770mm
Overall height: 1370mm
Overall weight: 1230kg(WRC regulation min.)
[b]Skoda Octavia WRC[/b]
Overall length: 4511mm
Overall width: 1770mm
Overall height: 1429mm
Overall weight: 1240kg
[b]Hyundai Accent WRC2[/b]
Overall length: 4200mm
Overall width: 1770mm
Overall height: 1332mm
Overall weight: 1230kg(WRC regulation min.)
| Jon Bogert | 08-27-2002 10:02 AM |
I know that they all claim the same weight--right on the minimum of course--just like they all claim the same power. Even if this is correct, [i]where[/i] is the weight. I suspect that the Peugeot and Citroen and Focus carry the weight much lower and more centrally than the others. Just look how quickly the Peugeot turns--it's yaw moment of inertia is visibly less than the Subaru.
| Subie Gal | 08-27-2002 10:11 AM |
that's it!!
Subaru should just do it... just rally the wagon!!! :D
hell... it nearly looks like a Pug! :lol:
seriously tho... the wheelbase on the Pugs is a lot shorter than the Roo's and if Subaru wants to continue with a competitive car (on tarmac - i think they still hold their own on any gravel rally) then they'd best consider making a few changes here n there...
rally the wagon! :p
Jamie *i wanna rally a wagon* Thomas
[url]www.subiegalracing.com[/url]
[url]www.subiegal.com[/url]
[COLOR=red]rally t-shirts available now![/COLOR]
Subaru should just do it... just rally the wagon!!! :D
hell... it nearly looks like a Pug! :lol:
seriously tho... the wheelbase on the Pugs is a lot shorter than the Roo's and if Subaru wants to continue with a competitive car (on tarmac - i think they still hold their own on any gravel rally) then they'd best consider making a few changes here n there...
rally the wagon! :p
Jamie *i wanna rally a wagon* Thomas
[url]www.subiegalracing.com[/url]
[url]www.subiegal.com[/url]
[COLOR=red]rally t-shirts available now![/COLOR]
| Jewbaru | 08-27-2002 11:42 AM |
The pugs are smaller, but their wheels are at the extreme ends of the car giving it better handling. The Subaru probably has the best center of gravity. Almost everytime I've seen it airborne, it's angle doesn't change, it doesn't begin to nose dive like other cars, it just kinda floats there.
Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but the EVO is built off the same platform that our plain jane Lancer is built off of correct? If so, how come the rally car is 6" shorter?
[EDIT] The US Lancer seems to be larger than the car in other countries. :confused:
Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but the EVO is built off the same platform that our plain jane Lancer is built off of correct? If so, how come the rally car is 6" shorter?
[EDIT] The US Lancer seems to be larger than the car in other countries. :confused:
| Craig W | 08-27-2002 01:29 PM |
I'm surprised no one's mentioned this before, but I was wondering how much a factor aerodynamics are for the WRC cars. Besides being smaller, the 206 and Xsara are much more streamlined than the Sube. On the tighter courses, the shorter wheelbase is beneficial, but speeds are less and aerodynamics aren't as much a factor.
But, the rally prior to this last one was one of the fastest of the whole series. At those higher speeds, the more aerodynamic cars would have an added advantage and they're the ones that walked, or rather, ran away w/ the win.
But, the rally prior to this last one was one of the fastest of the whole series. At those higher speeds, the more aerodynamic cars would have an added advantage and they're the ones that walked, or rather, ran away w/ the win.
| WagonMonster | 08-27-2002 01:46 PM |
Another thing to think about is the fact that Peugeot throws about twice as much money at their Rally Program than Subaru does.
Peugeot is kinda like the Yankees....
If you throw enough money at a team, they're bound to win! ;)
Peugeot is kinda like the Yankees....
If you throw enough money at a team, they're bound to win! ;)
| tonytiger | 08-27-2002 01:51 PM |
Without knowing the FIA rules, let me guess Peugot just barely exeeds the dimension limits.
I agree with Jewbaru that Subaru has has the center of gravity nicely at the center of the car by widht at least.
I'm no engineer, but a thought:
If the car has a length lats say A and the wheels are somewhere between the front and rear bumber.
Like Peugeots (and F1) the wheels are nearly at the both ends of the car. But what if we start to move the tires in our minds more and more to the center of the car. Eventually we come to a point where both front and rear tires thouch eachothers.
It's easy to imagine which one of these will corner better: the one with the tires at near the mass center or the one with the opposite ends of the car. If the car is considered homogenous by mass distribution which it isn't, I could imagine the ability to corner is proportional to the distance between the front tires and front bumber and similary the distance between rear tires and rear bumber.
If you did understand what I meant (English isn't my mother language), wouldn't a solution for the problem be just to move the rear tires more back and the front tires more front (if possible on the front case) on the next year's model?
What would the consecuences be? Just a thought...
tony
I agree with Jewbaru that Subaru has has the center of gravity nicely at the center of the car by widht at least.
I'm no engineer, but a thought:
If the car has a length lats say A and the wheels are somewhere between the front and rear bumber.
Like Peugeots (and F1) the wheels are nearly at the both ends of the car. But what if we start to move the tires in our minds more and more to the center of the car. Eventually we come to a point where both front and rear tires thouch eachothers.
It's easy to imagine which one of these will corner better: the one with the tires at near the mass center or the one with the opposite ends of the car. If the car is considered homogenous by mass distribution which it isn't, I could imagine the ability to corner is proportional to the distance between the front tires and front bumber and similary the distance between rear tires and rear bumber.
If you did understand what I meant (English isn't my mother language), wouldn't a solution for the problem be just to move the rear tires more back and the front tires more front (if possible on the front case) on the next year's model?
What would the consecuences be? Just a thought...
tony
| Jewbaru | 08-27-2002 01:54 PM |
IIRC, the Pug had to add a little to the front and rear so it would be large enough to compete.
| Thug | 08-27-2002 01:59 PM |
If I understand what you're saying Tony, I dont think I agree. You basically want to make the wheel base longer, but not wider, correct? A longer car will be more stable on the high speed rallies, but it wont rotate/turn as quickly as a shorter car.
| Craig W | 08-27-2002 02:10 PM |
Wider is better. And not just for Pontiacs. Check out the specs posted earlier. Every car is the same width. Because that's the max allowed by the rules and they're taking all they can get. More width = more stability.
| tonytiger | 08-27-2002 02:10 PM |
I think you understood what I meant. What you said sounds right. However if we stick with the same length of the current car, wouldn't it help to move the tyres more front and back?
tony
tony
| Craig W | 08-27-2002 02:22 PM |
Longer wheelbase = larger turning radius, more stability. Shorter wheelbase = tighter turning, less stability.
| brainrally | 08-27-2002 02:40 PM |
If you think in terms of torque, it would be easier to turn the car with the wheels pushed out as far to the ends of the car as possible, because it takes less torque to rotate the mass.
But a shorter car (the entire chassis, not just the placement of the wheels) will turn easier than a longer car. So what you want is a car as short as possible, with the wheels all the way to the ends of the car. On a course with lots of sharp turns, this setup has the advantage.
But a shorter car is less stable in a straight line (it responds more readily to steering inputs). On a course with long sweeping turns and high speed straights, you want a longer car, because it's more stable (not "twitchy" like a short car would be).
Of course, that is assuming evenly distributed mass throughout the chassis. Where the greatest concentration of mass is located in the chassis will also affect turning ability. That's why a mid-engine car is sometimes preferred to a front-engine car. With more mass concentrated at the center, the car turns easier. With more mass at the front, you tend to get initial understeer when trying to turn (more so than a mid-engine vehicle). Consider also the Porsche, with the engine behind the rear axle. The car will also turn easier than a front-engine vehicle (the Porsche had a reputation for wicked oversteer, which may not have been totally deserved). The center of rotation is about where the rear axle is located, unless you have four-wheel steering.
But a shorter car (the entire chassis, not just the placement of the wheels) will turn easier than a longer car. So what you want is a car as short as possible, with the wheels all the way to the ends of the car. On a course with lots of sharp turns, this setup has the advantage.
But a shorter car is less stable in a straight line (it responds more readily to steering inputs). On a course with long sweeping turns and high speed straights, you want a longer car, because it's more stable (not "twitchy" like a short car would be).
Of course, that is assuming evenly distributed mass throughout the chassis. Where the greatest concentration of mass is located in the chassis will also affect turning ability. That's why a mid-engine car is sometimes preferred to a front-engine car. With more mass concentrated at the center, the car turns easier. With more mass at the front, you tend to get initial understeer when trying to turn (more so than a mid-engine vehicle). Consider also the Porsche, with the engine behind the rear axle. The car will also turn easier than a front-engine vehicle (the Porsche had a reputation for wicked oversteer, which may not have been totally deserved). The center of rotation is about where the rear axle is located, unless you have four-wheel steering.
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