| extraducksauce | 10-21-2002 07:57 PM |
what's up with this "carbon fiber" non-sense?
What's up with all this "carbon fiber" non-sense ? I hope that I'm not bursting anyone's bubble, but the majority of these parts are faux (e.g., fake); except for the genuine sti and scooby sport spoilers, and other [u]really expensive[/u] pieces. These parts are first molded from fiber glass, then a "carbon fiber" sticker is placed on top [URL=http://www.decaldriveway.com/searchProduct.asp?Search=Carbon ](CLICK HERE)[/URL], and then clear coated to give that long lasting glossy finish. Think of the "CF" industry as the "gold platters" of the automobile world . . . everyone wants the look, but not pay the [u]price[/u].
For example:
Why are sti CF spoilers $1,300.00?
[img]http://www.subydude.com/images/prod/prod_sti_cf_rear_wing.jpg[/img]
[URL=http://www.subydude.com/parts/details?7]genuine carbon fiber part (CLICK HERE)[/URL]
and "CF" hoods $500.00?
[img]http://www.vividracing.com/images/customer/mblanton2.gif[/img]
[URL=http://www.vividracing.com/prod_hoods.php]"CF" hood examples (CLICK HERE)[/URL]
In my opinion, faux "carbon fiber" parts are crap. I am disappointed in the merchants passing this stuff off as the genuine article, and I am really saddened by the people who [u]know[/u] it's fake and still use it nontheless.
What do you guys think?
For example:
Why are sti CF spoilers $1,300.00?
[img]http://www.subydude.com/images/prod/prod_sti_cf_rear_wing.jpg[/img]
[URL=http://www.subydude.com/parts/details?7]genuine carbon fiber part (CLICK HERE)[/URL]
and "CF" hoods $500.00?
[img]http://www.vividracing.com/images/customer/mblanton2.gif[/img]
[URL=http://www.vividracing.com/prod_hoods.php]"CF" hood examples (CLICK HERE)[/URL]
In my opinion, faux "carbon fiber" parts are crap. I am disappointed in the merchants passing this stuff off as the genuine article, and I am really saddened by the people who [u]know[/u] it's fake and still use it nontheless.
What do you guys think?
| RuCKuS | 10-21-2002 08:26 PM |
Re: what's up with this "carbon fiber" non-sense?
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by extraducksauce [/i]
[B]Why are sti CF spoilers $1,300.00?
[/B][/QUOTE]
because it's [COLOR=deeppink]STi[/COLOR]...nuff said ;)
jeremy...
[B]Why are sti CF spoilers $1,300.00?
[/B][/QUOTE]
because it's [COLOR=deeppink]STi[/COLOR]...nuff said ;)
jeremy...
| O-wood | 10-21-2002 09:18 PM |
I agree with you EDS.:alien:
| CarbonFiberWRX | 10-21-2002 09:32 PM |
wait, i just bought acarbon fiber hood from vivid racing, are u saying they are fake hoods or sumthing?
| extraducksauce | 10-21-2002 10:20 PM |
carbonfiberwrx,
yes . . . your hood is fake.
look carefully at your "CF" hood. if was truly carbon fiber, then the CF weave pattern should be through-out the entire hood, NOT just the outside. if you follow the entire "CF" pattern, you will at some point notice where the "anchor" points are, or where the "CF" crinkles; in other words, where the sticker stops.
yes . . . your hood is fake.
look carefully at your "CF" hood. if was truly carbon fiber, then the CF weave pattern should be through-out the entire hood, NOT just the outside. if you follow the entire "CF" pattern, you will at some point notice where the "anchor" points are, or where the "CF" crinkles; in other words, where the sticker stops.
| ponydog | 10-21-2002 10:26 PM |
cf hoods
Sometimes, cosmetic carbon os followed up with glass in the lay up. This has no effect other than to reduce cost, (very little. Most of the cost is actually labor and resin.) The piece may not handle as much load, but your car is not exactly built to Formula One specs anyway. Also, an easy way to check if it is fake is if the weave is absolutely perfect. Real hand laid carbon sometimes results in inconsistant weave patterns or frayed ends. The only way to get perfect weave is carbon fiber sticler or prepreg (very expensive.)
| tdxflex | 10-21-2002 10:50 PM |
aren't they fiberglass hoods with a layer of carbon fiber on the surface layer for looks?
| extraducksauce | 10-21-2002 10:50 PM |
if you need further examples
from the overboost store:
[QUOTE]Description: DTMAutohaus Carbon Fiber Hood 93-00 Subaru Impeza WRX/RS Fiberglass [/QUOTE]
[URL=http://www.overboost.com/obs/product.asp?pid=7826&cat_id=16&cat_name=&sc_id=&sc_name=]CLICK HERE[/URL]
from the overboost store:
[QUOTE]Description: DTMAutohaus Carbon Fiber Hood 93-00 Subaru Impeza WRX/RS Fiberglass [/QUOTE]
[URL=http://www.overboost.com/obs/product.asp?pid=7826&cat_id=16&cat_name=&sc_id=&sc_name=]CLICK HERE[/URL]
| extraducksauce | 10-21-2002 11:02 PM |
tdxflex:
"CF" hoods are for looks, but why should you spend $500.00 on a faux part? while the sticker is extreeeeemly inexpensive. i just think that it's bull***** that these guys are trying to sell this crap, and have you believe you are getting the real deal. it's like buying a $2,000.00 diamond wedding ring, to find out later that it's a $200.00 cubic zirconia fakie. wouldn't you be pissed off? don't get me wrong, i was swindelled out of my hard earned dollars . . . i just don't want you guys to spend money on worthless *****.
"CF" hoods are for looks, but why should you spend $500.00 on a faux part? while the sticker is extreeeeemly inexpensive. i just think that it's bull***** that these guys are trying to sell this crap, and have you believe you are getting the real deal. it's like buying a $2,000.00 diamond wedding ring, to find out later that it's a $200.00 cubic zirconia fakie. wouldn't you be pissed off? don't get me wrong, i was swindelled out of my hard earned dollars . . . i just don't want you guys to spend money on worthless *****.
| PHATsuby | 10-21-2002 11:10 PM |
i think the majority of people know that these hoods arent completely carbon fiber all the way through, however i dont think these manufacturers use a "sticker" to simulate carbon fiber, even if it is only one layer of carbon fiber it is real. if it is a sticker then i have no clue what the world is coming to when even subaru vendors try to rip off their customers.
| tdxflex | 10-21-2002 11:10 PM |
CF is not all for looks, when i think of CF i think of weight reduction while maintaining strength. But our hoods really aren't that heavy. I personally don't like it because it doesn't match any paint scheme, especially since my car is blue. and everyone has their personal preference, you really can't say you don't want people to spend money on worthless stuff, maybe they have a lot of money to spend or something.
if i was going to get any exterior carbon fiber part, i would get carbon fiber driveshafts so i would loose less power through the drivetrain. there was an interest for them in the transmission forum, but they changed it to lightweight aluminum and then it sort of took too long and people lost interest i think.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by extraducksauce [/i]
[B]tdxflex:
"CF" hoods are for looks, but why should you spend $500.00 on a faux part? while the sticker is extreeeeemly inexpensive. i just think that it's bull***** that these guys are trying to sell this crap, and have you believe you are getting the real deal. it's like buying a $2,000.00 diamond wedding ring, to find out later that it's a $200.00 cubic zirconia fakie. wouldn't you be pissed off? don't get me wrong, i was swindelled out of my hard earned dollars . . . i just don't want you guys to spend money on worthless *****. [/B][/QUOTE]
if i was going to get any exterior carbon fiber part, i would get carbon fiber driveshafts so i would loose less power through the drivetrain. there was an interest for them in the transmission forum, but they changed it to lightweight aluminum and then it sort of took too long and people lost interest i think.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by extraducksauce [/i]
[B]tdxflex:
"CF" hoods are for looks, but why should you spend $500.00 on a faux part? while the sticker is extreeeeemly inexpensive. i just think that it's bull***** that these guys are trying to sell this crap, and have you believe you are getting the real deal. it's like buying a $2,000.00 diamond wedding ring, to find out later that it's a $200.00 cubic zirconia fakie. wouldn't you be pissed off? don't get me wrong, i was swindelled out of my hard earned dollars . . . i just don't want you guys to spend money on worthless *****. [/B][/QUOTE]
| enewtabie | 10-21-2002 11:12 PM |
I remember before carbon fiber became popular...and I was thinking..yeah..thats gonna be on everybodys car...years later..here it is..its all a matter of taste..pure carbon fiber like race car material is not affordable for most people so that have to make it in a affordable way..some things I like it on..the sti wing..
and the carbon fiber p1 lip for gc8s..but not too much else..
and the carbon fiber p1 lip for gc8s..but not too much else..
| 2003WRX | 10-21-2002 11:20 PM |
I like my "carbon fiber"-ish side markers... they look alot better than the screaming orange ones on my blue rex (IMHO). :)
| Kevex | 10-22-2002 12:19 AM |
the fake one does have carbon on it, but with only the top layer for show purpose only. the ones by spoon for integra are really nice.
| cobrabyteWRX | 10-22-2002 01:16 AM |
Oh, geez. . .
Just cause *YOU* got swindle'd out of your money by purchasing from a company that you didn't research ... don't go slamming other dealers without knowing your stuff. In all honesty, I know that some aftermarket parts makers out there *do* use stickers (*cough* for honda's *cough*) ... but for the most part most CF parts are CF. But, as you first posted ... people should be aware of quality issues and should do a little research into the company they are purchasing from...
my .02
Chris
Just cause *YOU* got swindle'd out of your money by purchasing from a company that you didn't research ... don't go slamming other dealers without knowing your stuff. In all honesty, I know that some aftermarket parts makers out there *do* use stickers (*cough* for honda's *cough*) ... but for the most part most CF parts are CF. But, as you first posted ... people should be aware of quality issues and should do a little research into the company they are purchasing from...
my .02
Chris
| extraducksauce | 10-22-2002 01:56 AM |
cobrabytewrx,
when did i ever say that i bought carbon fiber things for my car? and how do you know that i don't do research before purchasing a item? wait a minute, i don't even know you. furthermore, i am doing my research at several reputable dealerships, after a friend of mine @ evopower in HB pointed out my naiveté. i wanted to prove him wrong and all i kept on finding was faux CF over, and over, and over. hey man, if you want to keep your eyes closed and fingers crossed . . . be my guest. do *your* own *research* before you speak.
by the way:
here's a prime example. i our very own i-club . . . [url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22528[/url]
[QUOTE]We are now taking orders for the 22B-style wide body kit. A 10% deposit is required. The kit cost is $2500. The kit includes the following:
2 Carbon Rear Fenders
2 Carbon Front Fenders
2 Carbon Side Skirts
2 Fiberglass Rear Inner Fender Liners
2 Rear Wheel Spacers (15mm)
10 Extra Long Rear Wheel Studs
Various Brackets to Adapt OEM 2.5RS Bumpers to Match Wide Fenders
[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://www.aerosim-research.com/subaru/images/kit_1_002.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.aerosim-research.com/subaru/images/kit_1_004.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.aerosim-research.com/subaru/images/kit_2_003.jpg[/IMG]
hmmmm . . . i don't see any carbon fiber there, that's what i'm saying. everyone is jumping on the "CF" bandwagon, and merchants are willing to take the money from the blind.
EDS
when did i ever say that i bought carbon fiber things for my car? and how do you know that i don't do research before purchasing a item? wait a minute, i don't even know you. furthermore, i am doing my research at several reputable dealerships, after a friend of mine @ evopower in HB pointed out my naiveté. i wanted to prove him wrong and all i kept on finding was faux CF over, and over, and over. hey man, if you want to keep your eyes closed and fingers crossed . . . be my guest. do *your* own *research* before you speak.
by the way:
here's a prime example. i our very own i-club . . . [url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22528[/url]
[QUOTE]We are now taking orders for the 22B-style wide body kit. A 10% deposit is required. The kit cost is $2500. The kit includes the following:
2 Carbon Rear Fenders
2 Carbon Front Fenders
2 Carbon Side Skirts
2 Fiberglass Rear Inner Fender Liners
2 Rear Wheel Spacers (15mm)
10 Extra Long Rear Wheel Studs
Various Brackets to Adapt OEM 2.5RS Bumpers to Match Wide Fenders
[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://www.aerosim-research.com/subaru/images/kit_1_002.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.aerosim-research.com/subaru/images/kit_1_004.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.aerosim-research.com/subaru/images/kit_2_003.jpg[/IMG]
hmmmm . . . i don't see any carbon fiber there, that's what i'm saying. everyone is jumping on the "CF" bandwagon, and merchants are willing to take the money from the blind.
EDS
| 65imp | 10-22-2002 02:08 AM |
I know a bit...
I work with the company that makes the carbon fiber and fiberglass for Saleen hoods. We make CF and FG hoods for the FD3S. Almost any "CF" you see on the street, or sold for a decent price isn't a "sticker" or "fake" It is either a pure Carbon Fiber layer, or a couple layers of Caron fiber over fiberglass. But the system used is wet lay up. So the CF is laid out like FG, and wet resin is painted over it, then it's squashed in a mold. This gives very little difference between the FG and the CF (other than the look). The CF is a bit stronger, and a bit lighter, but generally dosen't justify the cost. Actual CF used in the McLaren for example, is laid out similarly, but the molds are very heavy duty, and the final product is baked in an autoclave. This creates the ultra-strong, ultra-light carbon fiber. This is more of a dry lay up if I remember correctly.
The take home lesson is that if you get that deep, 3-D effect it's usually from several layers of wet layup CF, only 2 dimensional could be a sticker, or just not enough layers of CF. I would say very few, if any aftermarket parts are dry layup, as it's very expensive to own/use an autoclave for CF (it's like an oven that's as big as a room)
CF is mostly a look, but you can use fewer layers to get the same strength as CF, so you may shave a lb or two off a hood, but not too big a deal.
just my 2 cents
The take home lesson is that if you get that deep, 3-D effect it's usually from several layers of wet layup CF, only 2 dimensional could be a sticker, or just not enough layers of CF. I would say very few, if any aftermarket parts are dry layup, as it's very expensive to own/use an autoclave for CF (it's like an oven that's as big as a room)
CF is mostly a look, but you can use fewer layers to get the same strength as CF, so you may shave a lb or two off a hood, but not too big a deal.
just my 2 cents
| extraducksauce | 10-22-2002 02:21 AM |
65imp,
thank you for the very detailed and informative CF and FG lesson. your points are well taken, but i am still not completely convinced. when you guys sold your saleen hoods, did you guys inform the customer that you were using only a few layers of CF over FG, or did you guys just say it was CF? i'm curious, i really not trying to be a d*ck, seriously. i'm intreged.
EDS
thank you for the very detailed and informative CF and FG lesson. your points are well taken, but i am still not completely convinced. when you guys sold your saleen hoods, did you guys inform the customer that you were using only a few layers of CF over FG, or did you guys just say it was CF? i'm curious, i really not trying to be a d*ck, seriously. i'm intreged.
EDS
| dRu888 | 10-22-2002 02:39 AM |
PKzero.com offers 100% pure CF hoods..
and i think stever is just shapin the molds in FG to get the design for the flares done(u need to design the mold before u go blastin away with the CF, aint like CF is clay), then will make em in CF....
and i think stever is just shapin the molds in FG to get the design for the flares done(u need to design the mold before u go blastin away with the CF, aint like CF is clay), then will make em in CF....
| clamdip | 10-22-2002 07:23 AM |
i say, just save all that money for carbon fiber parts and just upgrade the performance. why do you need carbon fiber anyway? that's surely is an expensive way to not look so good. it seems so pointless. is it really going to help the performance by that much, getting a somewhat lighter hood? i don't quite think so. save your money and buy a bigger turbo, that would surely help more, ya think. to tell the truth, i would spend 2600 bucks on the zerosports coilover suspension than buy carbon fiber parts.
| Phatshiet | 10-22-2002 08:22 AM |
There are some people out there who like styling their cars and not making them go fast like the rest of us! There are many cases where a driver likes the way their car looks (exterior and interior), sounds (car audio), or even rides (suspension) rather than having the speed (engine mods) factors. Let the people do what they want with their money. If they want to buy something, then there is no need for you to say that they shouldn't do it. It's all a matter of preferneces.
| clamdip | 10-22-2002 08:33 AM |
hello, i'm not saying that they should or shouldn't buy whatever they want, if you read between the lines, i'm saying that if one is going to question, or second guess the things that they're going to buy, which in this case is carbon fiber products, and there are many people out there that want to make a quick buck. why bother? why not go for something that you know is the real stuff where you don't have to second guess this and that. if the carbon whatever is fake, then don't buy it. quite frankly, i don't care what anybody does to their car, you can put it on monster truck wheels for all i care, but i'm just giving some "advice", that's all.
| BOY | 10-22-2002 09:45 AM |
CF isn't really all that expensive compared to good quality fiberglass. The process gets expensive when low production runs of a product are produced. The molding process is expensive, the resins are expensive, and the process for hand-laying CF is very labor-intensive. Now, if a vendor is selling a "Carbon Fiber" product and it is fake, the vendor is liable for false advertising and fraud. Big name parts, C-West, Zerosports, STI, Aqua, etc cost big dollars b/c you are paying for a big name AND the parts are imported in very low numbers. Before you make a blanket statement about I-club vendors, please check your sources, or move it to News and Rumors.
| MajinWRX | 10-22-2002 09:53 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by extraducksauce [/i]
[B]it's like buying a $2,000.00 diamond wedding ring, to find out later that it's a $200.00 cubic zirconia fakie. wouldn't you be pissed off? [/B][/QUOTE]
if you paid $2000 for a diamond ring, it was probably fake anyway... try at least twice that
[B]it's like buying a $2,000.00 diamond wedding ring, to find out later that it's a $200.00 cubic zirconia fakie. wouldn't you be pissed off? [/B][/QUOTE]
if you paid $2000 for a diamond ring, it was probably fake anyway... try at least twice that
| tdxflex | 10-22-2002 10:44 AM |
guys, this thread is pretty much useless. if you have an opinion about carbon fiber, say it. but don't act like you know what's best for someone else and try to give advice for people. let everyone do what they want. some people are all about looks, some are all show/no go. some people are all about performance, some people are all about stereo. you can't advise someone to not do something that they want to do. if they don't do enough research, that's their fault. but anyone buying over the internet i hope would do research. if anything, give advice about doing research.
| JCampbell | 10-22-2002 10:48 AM |
CF Hoods
The better CF hoods are all CF and still run about $500. FibreImages is a good example. FWIW.
| decibel_dj | 10-22-2002 11:12 AM |
most of the CF parts i've had on my honda were CF over fiberglass since the cost of having a 100% CF product were too high but never a sticker (so you're *cough* honda *cough* you can shut the f*ck up) only ricers do that (and yes scuby owners can be ricers as well) i understand your point about fake and whats not fake but its about quality of the product. i could care less about owning a drag car since i rather own a nice looking street car.. like what was said b4 each their own. if you want to pay 2grand for a 100% CF hood so be it i'll pay $500 for a 75% CF hood and be just as happy
| cobrabyteWRX | 10-22-2002 12:16 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by decibel_dj [/i]
[B]most of the CF parts i've had on my honda were CF over fiberglass since the cost of having a 100% CF product were too high but never a sticker (so you're *cough* honda *cough* you can shut the f*ck up) only ricers do that (and yes scuby owners can be ricers as well) i understand your point about fake and whats not fake but its about quality of the product. i could care less about owning a drag car since i rather own a nice looking street car.. like what was said b4 each their own. if you want to pay 2grand for a 100% CF hood so be it i'll pay $500 for a 75% CF hood and be just as happy [/B][/QUOTE]
:lol:
decibel, I was trying to prove a point ... not piss anyone off. My car before I got my WRX was a Civic ... I just know that they have been around longer and the aftermarket is saturated with tons of people who *think* they are qualified to design style parts when they really are not. I had seen tons of faux-CF parts for my Civic ... my first thought was, "why would people purchase something for just the *look* of Cf, not the weight reduction?" To be honest with you, if I ever got CF parts for my car (thinking about a Prova hood), I would paint over it ... just like most of the race companies do. And, finally ... didn't mean to piss anyone off with the Honda crack . . . I just wasn't too happy with the parts offerings out there for it.
Chris
[B]most of the CF parts i've had on my honda were CF over fiberglass since the cost of having a 100% CF product were too high but never a sticker (so you're *cough* honda *cough* you can shut the f*ck up) only ricers do that (and yes scuby owners can be ricers as well) i understand your point about fake and whats not fake but its about quality of the product. i could care less about owning a drag car since i rather own a nice looking street car.. like what was said b4 each their own. if you want to pay 2grand for a 100% CF hood so be it i'll pay $500 for a 75% CF hood and be just as happy [/B][/QUOTE]
:lol:
decibel, I was trying to prove a point ... not piss anyone off. My car before I got my WRX was a Civic ... I just know that they have been around longer and the aftermarket is saturated with tons of people who *think* they are qualified to design style parts when they really are not. I had seen tons of faux-CF parts for my Civic ... my first thought was, "why would people purchase something for just the *look* of Cf, not the weight reduction?" To be honest with you, if I ever got CF parts for my car (thinking about a Prova hood), I would paint over it ... just like most of the race companies do. And, finally ... didn't mean to piss anyone off with the Honda crack . . . I just wasn't too happy with the parts offerings out there for it.
Chris
| extraducksauce | 10-22-2002 01:51 PM |
i'm glad that everyone has an opinion on this topic. the purpose of bringing this discussion was not to advise people in [u]what to buy [/u], but rather [u]how to research[/u] an item before purchasing one, as tdxflex posted earlier. also, as previously stated, functional performance products (e.g., ball bearing turbo, exhaust, etc) are, in my opinion, more important than cosmetic addtions. now that the controversy is over, let's let it slowly die out (the thread ;)).
peace,
EDS
peace,
EDS
| 65imp | 10-22-2002 08:23 PM |
Extraducksauce,
We didn't make or sell the Saleen hoods. The manufacturer we work with makes the fiberglass and some cf parts for Saleen mustangs. Since Steve saleen and his shop are here in So. Cal. I just stated that to indicat teh shop we use does quality work, as Saleen is a huge name in the mustang world.
The hoods we make are for the third gen Rx-7 (FD3S)... The biggest appeal to them is that they are vented, which releases a lot of the heat from the smouldering rotary engine bay. But they are offered in FG and CF. CF has a bit of a weight savings and strength, but most buy it for the look. Our CF hoods are 100% for the upper part of the hood, but the bracing (or lower half of the hood) is FG. No one seems to mind (bracing is less material overall so less weight savings availiable), and we keep an affordable price that way. But for guys like you we have good quality FG as well. I can see the appeal for bith,but if I'm paying, I'll get the FG.;)
And to answer your question, yes the people who buy our stuff know it's just the upper half of the hood that's CF...
And I agree with you wholeheartedly, if you're gonna buy a FG or CF hood, research is key. Crappy FG will end up costing you when you go to paint it, as it will have waves in it and possibly deform in high heat situations. Same goes for CF... You can pay more for a quality product, or you can pay more to the body shop to block and smooth your "new" hood. Even then you end up with a hood that cracks easily, or warps everytime you prop it up after driving. I would say that getting hoods for anywhere near what it costs to ship them is a huge red flag. Generally big names are safe, and replicas can be total crap to really good, do your homework!
We didn't make or sell the Saleen hoods. The manufacturer we work with makes the fiberglass and some cf parts for Saleen mustangs. Since Steve saleen and his shop are here in So. Cal. I just stated that to indicat teh shop we use does quality work, as Saleen is a huge name in the mustang world.
The hoods we make are for the third gen Rx-7 (FD3S)... The biggest appeal to them is that they are vented, which releases a lot of the heat from the smouldering rotary engine bay. But they are offered in FG and CF. CF has a bit of a weight savings and strength, but most buy it for the look. Our CF hoods are 100% for the upper part of the hood, but the bracing (or lower half of the hood) is FG. No one seems to mind (bracing is less material overall so less weight savings availiable), and we keep an affordable price that way. But for guys like you we have good quality FG as well. I can see the appeal for bith,but if I'm paying, I'll get the FG.;)
And to answer your question, yes the people who buy our stuff know it's just the upper half of the hood that's CF...
And I agree with you wholeheartedly, if you're gonna buy a FG or CF hood, research is key. Crappy FG will end up costing you when you go to paint it, as it will have waves in it and possibly deform in high heat situations. Same goes for CF... You can pay more for a quality product, or you can pay more to the body shop to block and smooth your "new" hood. Even then you end up with a hood that cracks easily, or warps everytime you prop it up after driving. I would say that getting hoods for anywhere near what it costs to ship them is a huge red flag. Generally big names are safe, and replicas can be total crap to really good, do your homework!
| ImpreziveWRX | 10-22-2002 09:41 PM |
Why so over react?
extraductsauce:
I think you are over react on this whole CF thing
Sounds like you just spend 1000 for a set of "carbon fiber tires" and found out they are not made by carbonfiber
There are only 2 reasons people put CF hood on their car
1. It look cool
2. It is lighter than stock hood
And people would pay that 500 for a CF hood
To me, I would get a CF hood if I have to...
For example, rocks chip my hood cause I race with too many Mustangs... To do a good job repaint it cost about 200 to 250
I will probably get a good CF hood and get over with all that painting, and my car look twice as cool as stock one
And when you say fake carbon fibers...
I have personally visit a CF hood manufacture
A piece of real CF are like fabrics
You need additional work to make it look like a CF Hood
So when you say they are fake, they are actually real
Just look different
Have you seen how McLaren F1 are made?? Probably not
Tons of CF sheets layer by layer to creat its body
And guess what, they are nothing look like a carbon fiber you see on a hood
For your eyes, they made CF look like you see on the hood
Real CF they use on race cars, they all look like black fabric
And they both real, just different way of making them
BTW, why STi sell the wing for 1300??
How much it cost for STi to design a spoiler (Using high tech equipment and lots CAD design)
And then a nice wind tunnel test to see if you really getting that downforce you need... Plus lots road test
At least you know that 1300 you spend you get a high quality, really working spoiler that will make your car faster and safer on the road, than a 300 bucks CF wannbe spoiler that might kill you one day
I think you are over react on this whole CF thing
Sounds like you just spend 1000 for a set of "carbon fiber tires" and found out they are not made by carbonfiber
There are only 2 reasons people put CF hood on their car
1. It look cool
2. It is lighter than stock hood
And people would pay that 500 for a CF hood
To me, I would get a CF hood if I have to...
For example, rocks chip my hood cause I race with too many Mustangs... To do a good job repaint it cost about 200 to 250
I will probably get a good CF hood and get over with all that painting, and my car look twice as cool as stock one
And when you say fake carbon fibers...
I have personally visit a CF hood manufacture
A piece of real CF are like fabrics
You need additional work to make it look like a CF Hood
So when you say they are fake, they are actually real
Just look different
Have you seen how McLaren F1 are made?? Probably not
Tons of CF sheets layer by layer to creat its body
And guess what, they are nothing look like a carbon fiber you see on a hood
For your eyes, they made CF look like you see on the hood
Real CF they use on race cars, they all look like black fabric
And they both real, just different way of making them
BTW, why STi sell the wing for 1300??
How much it cost for STi to design a spoiler (Using high tech equipment and lots CAD design)
And then a nice wind tunnel test to see if you really getting that downforce you need... Plus lots road test
At least you know that 1300 you spend you get a high quality, really working spoiler that will make your car faster and safer on the road, than a 300 bucks CF wannbe spoiler that might kill you one day
| extraducksauce | 10-22-2002 10:58 PM |
impresivewrx,
huh? did you read the my other responses? what are you talking about? i know that the tensile strength of carbon fiber is higher and it's mass is marginally lighter than that of fiberglass; however, i concede that well-produced FG is comparable to CF, and significatly cheaper to shape and manufacture.
with all that aside, i will reply to your response in several sub-sections,
[QUOTE]Sounds like you just spend 1000 for a set of "carbon fiber tires" and found out they are not made by carbonfiber[/QUOTE]
what? i'm not following.
[QUOTE]And when you say fake carbon fibers...
I have personally visit a CF hood manufacture
A piece of real CF are like fabrics
You need additional work to make it look like a CF Hood
So when you say they are fake, they are actually real
Just look different
. . .
For your eyes, they made CF look like you see on the hood
Real CF they use on race cars, they all look like black fabric
[/QUOTE]
ohhh . . . CF looks like fabric, it's kind of like the name carbon FI-BER, . . . FI-BER - FA-BRIC . . . well that makes sense; i thought it was the inter-weaving patterns of super-strong carbon composite materials and pressurized laminate which gave that glossy "fabric look", well i guess i could be wrong.
[QUOTE]BTW, why STi sell the wing for 1300??
How much it cost for STi to design a spoiler (Using high tech equipment and lots CAD design)
And then a nice wind tunnel test to see if you really getting that downforce you need... Plus lots road test
At least you know that 1300 you spend you get a high quality, . . .[/QUOTE]
true, subaru techinca international spends quite a bit of time and resources compiling data for their parts development, which would account for the high cost. but, you also have to consider the the "pureness" of the material; is the part 100% carbon fiber, carbon fiber shell with a fiberglass base, or 99.9% fiberglass with a "carbon fiber" sticker. 100% carbon fiber pieces, such as the STi spoiler, are extremely expensive to reproduce. with all of that understood, STi spoilers are not cost effective and deter many "normal" buyers.
[QUOTE]really working spoiler that will make your car faster and safer on the road, than a 300 bucks CF wannbe spoiler that might kill you one day [/QUOTE]
well, [u]spoilers[/u] do not make your car faster. they re-direct air to increase the amount of downforce (e.g., drag) and decrease the amount of lift. they really don't make your car faster, they technically slow your car down. engine components (such as larger turbo chargers, pulleys, etc.) or exhaust systems create more horsepower and torque with makes your car run effectively which will in turn, will make your car "faster".
i hope answered any questions you've had about my thread. if not, PM me and i'll answer them directly.
peace,
eds
p.s.
is english your native language? if it is, did you graduate from 5th grade english? maybe you should consider taking additional night classes to brush up on your grammer.
huh? did you read the my other responses? what are you talking about? i know that the tensile strength of carbon fiber is higher and it's mass is marginally lighter than that of fiberglass; however, i concede that well-produced FG is comparable to CF, and significatly cheaper to shape and manufacture.
with all that aside, i will reply to your response in several sub-sections,
[QUOTE]Sounds like you just spend 1000 for a set of "carbon fiber tires" and found out they are not made by carbonfiber[/QUOTE]
what? i'm not following.
[QUOTE]And when you say fake carbon fibers...
I have personally visit a CF hood manufacture
A piece of real CF are like fabrics
You need additional work to make it look like a CF Hood
So when you say they are fake, they are actually real
Just look different
. . .
For your eyes, they made CF look like you see on the hood
Real CF they use on race cars, they all look like black fabric
[/QUOTE]
ohhh . . . CF looks like fabric, it's kind of like the name carbon FI-BER, . . . FI-BER - FA-BRIC . . . well that makes sense; i thought it was the inter-weaving patterns of super-strong carbon composite materials and pressurized laminate which gave that glossy "fabric look", well i guess i could be wrong.
[QUOTE]BTW, why STi sell the wing for 1300??
How much it cost for STi to design a spoiler (Using high tech equipment and lots CAD design)
And then a nice wind tunnel test to see if you really getting that downforce you need... Plus lots road test
At least you know that 1300 you spend you get a high quality, . . .[/QUOTE]
true, subaru techinca international spends quite a bit of time and resources compiling data for their parts development, which would account for the high cost. but, you also have to consider the the "pureness" of the material; is the part 100% carbon fiber, carbon fiber shell with a fiberglass base, or 99.9% fiberglass with a "carbon fiber" sticker. 100% carbon fiber pieces, such as the STi spoiler, are extremely expensive to reproduce. with all of that understood, STi spoilers are not cost effective and deter many "normal" buyers.
[QUOTE]really working spoiler that will make your car faster and safer on the road, than a 300 bucks CF wannbe spoiler that might kill you one day [/QUOTE]
well, [u]spoilers[/u] do not make your car faster. they re-direct air to increase the amount of downforce (e.g., drag) and decrease the amount of lift. they really don't make your car faster, they technically slow your car down. engine components (such as larger turbo chargers, pulleys, etc.) or exhaust systems create more horsepower and torque with makes your car run effectively which will in turn, will make your car "faster".
i hope answered any questions you've had about my thread. if not, PM me and i'll answer them directly.
peace,
eds
p.s.
is english your native language? if it is, did you graduate from 5th grade english? maybe you should consider taking additional night classes to brush up on your grammer.
| ImpreziveWRX | 10-22-2002 11:14 PM |
Ha ha ha
No, English is not my native language
I am pretty sure my English sucks, but I can speak/read/write in three languages which I assuming you can't
This is a POST, not my English term paper
So I can type anything I feel confortable with
BTW, spoiler does make your car go faster
A well designed spoiler not only creat that downforce you need
It also decrease the drag of the car
PEACE!
No, English is not my native language
I am pretty sure my English sucks, but I can speak/read/write in three languages which I assuming you can't
This is a POST, not my English term paper
So I can type anything I feel confortable with
BTW, spoiler does make your car go faster
A well designed spoiler not only creat that downforce you need
It also decrease the drag of the car
PEACE!
| dRu888 | 10-22-2002 11:30 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ImpreziveWRX [/i]
[B]
BTW, spoiler does make your car go faster
A well designed spoiler not only creat that downforce you need
It also decrease the drag of the car
[/B][/QUOTE]
True, but most times (off the track) we do not go fast enough for it to actually play a very large role. I wouldn't classify a spoiler as a performance mod, even if it were designed to make the car more aerodynamic.
[B]
BTW, spoiler does make your car go faster
A well designed spoiler not only creat that downforce you need
It also decrease the drag of the car
[/B][/QUOTE]
True, but most times (off the track) we do not go fast enough for it to actually play a very large role. I wouldn't classify a spoiler as a performance mod, even if it were designed to make the car more aerodynamic.
| ImpreziveWRX | 10-22-2002 11:42 PM |
dRu888:
I toally agree with you
All I want to say is that spoiler does make your car go faster
Specially something like STi
I toally agree with you
All I want to say is that spoiler does make your car go faster
Specially something like STi
| burnt_rice2000 | 10-22-2002 11:47 PM |
Hey, can you please show ANY product on the market that actually puts "sticker" on it and calls it carbonfiber. And you can't really clear coat a sticker. SO I really have a hard time believing you know what your talking about ducksauce. If its a vinyl decal it's marketed as CF "look". Most people now a days know that the product they're getting is a fiberglass/cf composite and almost all reputable companies inform people that it's a composite. The money you pay for an expensive, pure carbon fiber piece, goes towards the time and money it takes to make it. The mold has to be perfect, you can't sand a pure cf piece (unless your painting it or plan on clear coating the whole thing again). You have to use heat and pressure to get the full strength and lightweight out of the piece. And the CF weave itself runs a minimum of 10 times the cost of fiberglass (if you buy bulk). So before you go trying to make people think you know what your talking about and make people feel stupid (as you did in your last post), make sure you know what your talking about.
P.S.!!!! How far in school did you get? I learned how to use capitols in what, first grade? And don't try to pick out my mistakes cause I just don't care.
P.S.!!!! How far in school did you get? I learned how to use capitols in what, first grade? And don't try to pick out my mistakes cause I just don't care.
| extraducksauce | 10-23-2002 02:11 AM |
burnt_rice2000,
First of all, I'm sorry. I will use capitols in all of my sentences, except for quotes in my previous posts, just for you. ;). I thought that I addressed this in my prior post:
[QUOTE]true, subaru techinca international spends quite a bit of time and resources compiling data for their parts development, which would account for the high cost. but, you also have to consider the the "pureness" of the material; is the part 100% carbon fiber, carbon fiber shell with a fiberglass base, or 99.9% fiberglass with a "carbon fiber" sticker. 100% carbon fiber pieces, such as the STi spoiler, are extremely expensive to reproduce. with all of that understood, STi spoilers are not cost effective and deter many "normal" buyers.[/QUOTE]
If you go to your local performance shop, please inspect the "CF" items yourself and be the judge.
Secondly, I wrote this thread for the following reason:
[QUOTE]i'm glad that everyone has an opinion on this topic. the purpose of bringing this discussion was not to advise people in what to buy , but rather how to research an item before purchasing one, as tdxflex posted earlier. also, as previously stated, functional performance products (e.g., ball bearing turbo, exhaust, etc) are, in my opinion, more important than cosmetic addtions. now that the controversy is over, let's let it slowly die out (the thread ;)).[/QUOTE]
These forum help us discuss concerns and gratitude for our cars. If I am mistaken in my opinion, I will gladly admit to my naiveté; 65imp has enlightened me with his knowledge of fiberglass and carbon fiber production. Well then, enlighten me with your vast automotive intellegence.
First of all, I'm sorry. I will use capitols in all of my sentences, except for quotes in my previous posts, just for you. ;). I thought that I addressed this in my prior post:
[QUOTE]true, subaru techinca international spends quite a bit of time and resources compiling data for their parts development, which would account for the high cost. but, you also have to consider the the "pureness" of the material; is the part 100% carbon fiber, carbon fiber shell with a fiberglass base, or 99.9% fiberglass with a "carbon fiber" sticker. 100% carbon fiber pieces, such as the STi spoiler, are extremely expensive to reproduce. with all of that understood, STi spoilers are not cost effective and deter many "normal" buyers.[/QUOTE]
If you go to your local performance shop, please inspect the "CF" items yourself and be the judge.
Secondly, I wrote this thread for the following reason:
[QUOTE]i'm glad that everyone has an opinion on this topic. the purpose of bringing this discussion was not to advise people in what to buy , but rather how to research an item before purchasing one, as tdxflex posted earlier. also, as previously stated, functional performance products (e.g., ball bearing turbo, exhaust, etc) are, in my opinion, more important than cosmetic addtions. now that the controversy is over, let's let it slowly die out (the thread ;)).[/QUOTE]
These forum help us discuss concerns and gratitude for our cars. If I am mistaken in my opinion, I will gladly admit to my naiveté; 65imp has enlightened me with his knowledge of fiberglass and carbon fiber production. Well then, enlighten me with your vast automotive intellegence.
| clamdip | 10-23-2002 02:35 AM |
well, since we're all on that topic of looking good and whatever. what's the difference between a carbon fiber "look" part and a "real" carbon fiber part. like i said before and i'll say it again, if it's not for performance reasons why should it matter? people on this thread are telling me that carbon fiber is more for looks rather than performance so be it, then why not just buy the cheapest carbon fiber "look" part, because i surely don't think anybody has the time to fully inspect your car or carbon fiber whatever and say "hey man, that's "fake" carbon fiber". if you have time to do that, then you need to get a life. on the other hand, if it's for performance reasons, and you're concerned that it will affect the "performance" of the car, i.e. a quality turbo, or intercooler, whatever, then that should be more of a concern, ya think? Also, i know that carbon fiber is all for the "look", come on, don't tell me that you're going to buy a carbon fiber hood for instance just so that you make your car lighter because you race often and you need all the weight reduction you can. give me a break. i can see if you made your whole car carbon fiber or fiberglass, now that would surely help with weight reduction. and another thing, you get what you pay for. why do you think STI parts are so expensive, for one the name and two the quality. i know nobody here thinks that STI parts suck, i sure don't. well, arrest my case.
| gordy | 10-23-2002 02:53 AM |
carbon fiber looks like sh¡t, if I got cf parts I would have them painted silver to match the rest of my car. :rolleyes:
| extraducksauce | 10-23-2002 03:14 AM |
you guys are blowing this thread [u]way[/u] out of proportion.
i will spell it out for you guys who don't understand my point.
if you purchase an item from a merchant, (e.g., seller) he or she should release all information about that product . . . is it [u]real[/u] or is it [u]fake[/u]. if you buy a faux carbon fiber hood, don't you think that the dealer should say, "This hood (or other part) is a CF replica, the base is FG and it is layered with several sheets of CF. The strength and weight is comparable to CF, but it is much cheaper." rather than just saying it's CF. for another example, wouldn't you be mad if you bought gold watch, but the dealer didn't inform you that it was gold plated. this whole concept is OLD, it is called "BAIT AND SWITCH." . . . say one thing, and switch it for another. yeah, yeah, sure, sure you can always say "BUYER BEWARE", but what if you or someone else didn't know the difference? should they be at fault?
[QUOTE] . . . i surely don't think anybody has the time to fully inspect your car or carbon fiber whatever and say "hey man, that's "fake" carbon fiber". if you have time to do that, then you need to get a life.[/QUOTE]
clamdip, i sure hope you are kidding me. if you want to go blindly through life without questioning anyone/thing, you are in for a rude awakening. not everyone is telling the truth, and if you don't want to "open your eyes" . . . man, i am real sorry for you. have some self-respect, do [u]your own research[/u] and don't believe [u]everything[/u] you see.
EDS
i will spell it out for you guys who don't understand my point.
if you purchase an item from a merchant, (e.g., seller) he or she should release all information about that product . . . is it [u]real[/u] or is it [u]fake[/u]. if you buy a faux carbon fiber hood, don't you think that the dealer should say, "This hood (or other part) is a CF replica, the base is FG and it is layered with several sheets of CF. The strength and weight is comparable to CF, but it is much cheaper." rather than just saying it's CF. for another example, wouldn't you be mad if you bought gold watch, but the dealer didn't inform you that it was gold plated. this whole concept is OLD, it is called "BAIT AND SWITCH." . . . say one thing, and switch it for another. yeah, yeah, sure, sure you can always say "BUYER BEWARE", but what if you or someone else didn't know the difference? should they be at fault?
[QUOTE] . . . i surely don't think anybody has the time to fully inspect your car or carbon fiber whatever and say "hey man, that's "fake" carbon fiber". if you have time to do that, then you need to get a life.[/QUOTE]
clamdip, i sure hope you are kidding me. if you want to go blindly through life without questioning anyone/thing, you are in for a rude awakening. not everyone is telling the truth, and if you don't want to "open your eyes" . . . man, i am real sorry for you. have some self-respect, do [u]your own research[/u] and don't believe [u]everything[/u] you see.
EDS
| clamdip | 10-23-2002 04:08 AM |
i think you have yourself all confused. you talk about doing research, on what a "company", a "product"? well, apparently you know about what carbon fiber is made of and you apparently know so much about how someone can fake it. now you're talking about buying if from somebody, yeah sure everybody is trying to make a quick buck and if you do "research" on business strategies then you'll know that they'll try to swindle anyone. you think they're going to tell every customer that inquires about a carbon fiber part that it's fake, then you have issues. talk about opening your eyes, i'm sorry, but the world isn't that honest. again, i take you to my reply. you get what you "pay for". you think quality manufactures have the time to think about how they're going to rip off customers? like STI and Cusco, etc. don't think so? you think they could afford to have people recognize them as "fake" suppliers, don't think so. i think you need a rude awakening. now if the manfacturer is some queer company that claims that their stuff is "real", and it's cheap, then common sense tells you that it may be "fake". it doesn't take a genius to figure that out, why do all the "research". bottom line is that you get what you "pay for" it's as simple as that. i'll take you to your gold watch thing, if the guy you're buying from is just selling it off the street, what are you going to do, ask him for his wallet and "research" his license or something, why? i sure hope you won't buy it from him cause that's just plain dumb. now if you walk into a quality shop like armani, or gucci, then something tells you that wow, i think the things here are "real", i.e. gold watches or whatever. secondly, why do you care so much if all it's for is the "look" anyway. that's why people buy these things, for the look. i couldn't agree more with what gordy said about carbon fiber. also, i'll go through life without questioning things that are so obvious. if you have no common sense, then i don't know man, something's wrong.
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