| root | 05-19-2005 04:21 PM |
When in a spin... the safest thing to do is?
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Just wondering what the safest thing to do is when your car oversteers and reaches the point when you know it is impossible to get it back in line?
I've heard the phrase "when in a spin, both feet in". Anyone care to elaborate on that? I assume it means disengage the clutch and hold down the brake? What should you do with the steering wheel?
And there is also "when in doubt, both feet out". What is the doubt? When you think you are about to go into a spin as opposed to actually being in one? In which case, let of the gas and don't hit the brakes?
I've heard the phrase "when in a spin, both feet in". Anyone care to elaborate on that? I assume it means disengage the clutch and hold down the brake? What should you do with the steering wheel?
And there is also "when in doubt, both feet out". What is the doubt? When you think you are about to go into a spin as opposed to actually being in one? In which case, let of the gas and don't hit the brakes?
| PaulC | 05-19-2005 04:26 PM |
"both feet in" means depress the clutch pedal and brake pedal. Clutch so you don't stall the car, brakes so you lock the wheels.. the car will come to a stop MUCH faster and without as much drama if the wheels are locked.
No sure about "when in doubt" but I would imagine if you are feeling a little sketchy it's best to just coast for a sec while you gather everything up, as opposed to trying to be a hero by throttling out of it or panicking and locking the brakes.
No sure about "when in doubt" but I would imagine if you are feeling a little sketchy it's best to just coast for a sec while you gather everything up, as opposed to trying to be a hero by throttling out of it or panicking and locking the brakes.
| leecea | 05-19-2005 04:30 PM |
I think the key to both feet in is that you lock up the brakes so that the car goes in a straight line, making the steering wheel position irrelevant. The idea is that it is more predictable and, in environments like autox courses, they often have safe run off areas where spins are likely.
I think both feet out means to keep your feet still (ie. if your were on the gas, stay on it). Lifting may provoke a spin.
Hopefully someone more experienced will correct any of this that's wrong!
I think both feet out means to keep your feet still (ie. if your were on the gas, stay on it). Lifting may provoke a spin.
Hopefully someone more experienced will correct any of this that's wrong!
| root | 05-19-2005 04:36 PM |
Thanks. That all makes sense. Wasn't sure about whether locking the brakes was the right thing to do though.
One of the things that got me thinking about this again was that video posted by Pat Olsen in another thread ([url]http://www.submariner.org/thepno95/Video%20clips/LRP%20August%202000/thecrash.mpg[/url]). And wondering if there was an action he could have taken to avoid the rollover.
One of the things that got me thinking about this again was that video posted by Pat Olsen in another thread ([url]http://www.submariner.org/thepno95/Video%20clips/LRP%20August%202000/thecrash.mpg[/url]). And wondering if there was an action he could have taken to avoid the rollover.
| kfoote | 05-19-2005 04:52 PM |
[QUOTE=leecea]I think the key to both feet in is that you lock up the brakes so that the car goes in a straight line, making the steering wheel position irrelevant. [b]The idea is that it is more predictable [/b] and, in environments like autox courses, they often have safe run off areas where spins are likely....[/QUOTE]
The predictability is the biggest part, especially on a road course. Keep the brakes locked and DO NOT LET OFF THE BRAKE UNTIL THE CAR IS STOPPED!!! There have been several major accidents that I am aware of where if the car that had spun initially had locked the brakes and kept them locked, the result would be a lot better than it was. The first one that jumps to mind is Phil McClure's accident at Road America a couple of years ago where he tried to save the position when he went off track rather than lock them up. The result, he came back across the track, he got drilled, and missed the next race 3 weeks later due to not being medically cleared.
The predictability is the biggest part, especially on a road course. Keep the brakes locked and DO NOT LET OFF THE BRAKE UNTIL THE CAR IS STOPPED!!! There have been several major accidents that I am aware of where if the car that had spun initially had locked the brakes and kept them locked, the result would be a lot better than it was. The first one that jumps to mind is Phil McClure's accident at Road America a couple of years ago where he tried to save the position when he went off track rather than lock them up. The result, he came back across the track, he got drilled, and missed the next race 3 weeks later due to not being medically cleared.
| wht052.5 | 05-19-2005 05:35 PM |
Holy Crap!!
:eek:
That SUX!!! Good Video though.
What if you have ABS and Can't lock? (remove the fuse?)
:eek:
That SUX!!! Good Video though.
What if you have ABS and Can't lock? (remove the fuse?)
| RB5 Clone | 05-19-2005 05:44 PM |
[QUOTE=wht052.5]
What if you have ABS and Can't lock? (remove the fuse?)[/QUOTE]
Pull fuse #8 (GC8 RS) or whatever your owner's manual says is ABS fuse.
Other thing to remember in a spin is, hunch your head down and shoulders up, to tighten yerself into the belts...never know what you're gonna hit (or what's gonna hit you)
Dave G
What if you have ABS and Can't lock? (remove the fuse?)[/QUOTE]
Pull fuse #8 (GC8 RS) or whatever your owner's manual says is ABS fuse.
Other thing to remember in a spin is, hunch your head down and shoulders up, to tighten yerself into the belts...never know what you're gonna hit (or what's gonna hit you)
Dave G
| arubus | 05-19-2005 06:07 PM |
You put the clutch in so that you don't stall and when things are clear you can get out of the way when clear. The brakes on will slow you down quickest. If you've committed your spin keep the wheel close to full lock, or where you got the wheel to during correction, with your thumbs out of the wheel so they don't break. Having the wheels turned lessens the likelyhood of flipping the car.
All of this is just what I remember reading in the SportsCar column done by Randy Pobst. I'll see if I can scan it tonight.
Godspeed.
--Wayne
All of this is just what I remember reading in the SportsCar column done by Randy Pobst. I'll see if I can scan it tonight.
Godspeed.
--Wayne
| goto_racing | 05-19-2005 06:15 PM |
In addition to locking up the brakes hard, straigten the wheel. Even with the tires locked, something might happen that causes the fronts to start rolling again, and if they are locked in your last countersteer attempt, you will hasten the spin upon getting to 180 degrees.
Even racers forget this. Just last weekend I saw a driver fight a tank slap for like 400 or 500 feet before they lost it. Almost flipped, but still ripped off the bumper, did some magor subframe damage, and endangered the cars around them. Just remember it's more important to save the car than the ego :). Locking up bleeds off speed fast, and will minimize any possible damage. Unless you really know what you are doing(and even then sometimes), chasing it on the gas is just prolonging the inevitable.
Even racers forget this. Just last weekend I saw a driver fight a tank slap for like 400 or 500 feet before they lost it. Almost flipped, but still ripped off the bumper, did some magor subframe damage, and endangered the cars around them. Just remember it's more important to save the car than the ego :). Locking up bleeds off speed fast, and will minimize any possible damage. Unless you really know what you are doing(and even then sometimes), chasing it on the gas is just prolonging the inevitable.
| goto_racing | 05-19-2005 06:29 PM |
[QUOTE=arubus] If you've committed your spin keep the wheel close to full lock... Having the wheels turned lessens the likelyhood of flipping the car.
--Wayne[/QUOTE]
At the risk of disagreeing with a great driver, this has not been my experience. Maybe some rally guys could chime in on how NOT to end up on your lid while sliding sideways in the dirt? but for me, I want to get backwards faster, so I have a straight wheel. Plus if you never leave the pavement, having a straight wheel means you come to a very predictable halt. Anytime I have ever had to dodge a car spinning in front of me, it was because he kept the wheel locked and jumped sideways about a car length as he came to rest.
getting your hands off the wheel is good advice. It is possible to break more than your thumbs. My brother did it this year at an enduro. The wheel snaped so hard it projected his hand away and into the door, broke his middle finger. If I know I am going to hit something, I take my hands off the wheel right before impact. If I have time I grab the shoulder belts. Luckily, I have only had to practice this a few times :)
--Wayne[/QUOTE]
At the risk of disagreeing with a great driver, this has not been my experience. Maybe some rally guys could chime in on how NOT to end up on your lid while sliding sideways in the dirt? but for me, I want to get backwards faster, so I have a straight wheel. Plus if you never leave the pavement, having a straight wheel means you come to a very predictable halt. Anytime I have ever had to dodge a car spinning in front of me, it was because he kept the wheel locked and jumped sideways about a car length as he came to rest.
getting your hands off the wheel is good advice. It is possible to break more than your thumbs. My brother did it this year at an enduro. The wheel snaped so hard it projected his hand away and into the door, broke his middle finger. If I know I am going to hit something, I take my hands off the wheel right before impact. If I have time I grab the shoulder belts. Luckily, I have only had to practice this a few times :)
| 409Industries | 05-19-2005 06:42 PM |
maybe its just my ignorance, but i remember hearing that if youre swinging too far around and you know your losing control to not completly let off the gas because for sure you will end up in a spin. is that correct? if you know your gonna come around backwards, can you stay somewhat on the throttle to bring it back under control?
| powerlabs | 05-19-2005 06:57 PM |
I too have pondered a lot about this:
Do you try and correct it, and risk not being able to and going off the road at a much higher speed, destroying your car and getting injured, or do you lock up the brakes and resign yourself to car damage, albeit at a lower speed crash.
I was faced with this decision at 90MPH once when the corner I was taking suddently became much sharper than it looked from the outside. I lifted my foot off the gas, the back end started to come around, I corrected, it overshot, corrected again, and fishtailed 3-4 times before the corner was over and I left it. At that speed I figured I would not be able to shave off enough by laying on the brakes to prevent a very serious accident. At the same time, my (sucessful) attempt at correcting it could have caused an even more serious accident, particularly if anyone else was on the road at that time.
The scariest part is that my RS becomes more and more super tail happy as road conditions become slippery. In snow, the only way to correct this is to get on the gas (found this out on this last winter's ice racing season; a HIGHLY recommended driving experience). So, when I begin to oversteer on slick stuff, I have to give the car gas. Too much will make it power slide (LSD on the rear) though, but lifting off will end up with me going off the road for sure. Interestingly enough laying on the brakes before a turn on an ice race will make the car COMPLETELY understeer (only way I could initiate a slide was with lots of power or by going into the corner too fast). The end result was that I had to get on the gas and feather it untill the car straightened out.
Personally I don't feel safe driving the car at anything faster than 70MPH on snow, even with dedicated snow tires. For an AWD car, I would expect it to be a lot more stable.
Hope this makes sense; I've been up since 4AM :lol:
Do you try and correct it, and risk not being able to and going off the road at a much higher speed, destroying your car and getting injured, or do you lock up the brakes and resign yourself to car damage, albeit at a lower speed crash.
I was faced with this decision at 90MPH once when the corner I was taking suddently became much sharper than it looked from the outside. I lifted my foot off the gas, the back end started to come around, I corrected, it overshot, corrected again, and fishtailed 3-4 times before the corner was over and I left it. At that speed I figured I would not be able to shave off enough by laying on the brakes to prevent a very serious accident. At the same time, my (sucessful) attempt at correcting it could have caused an even more serious accident, particularly if anyone else was on the road at that time.
The scariest part is that my RS becomes more and more super tail happy as road conditions become slippery. In snow, the only way to correct this is to get on the gas (found this out on this last winter's ice racing season; a HIGHLY recommended driving experience). So, when I begin to oversteer on slick stuff, I have to give the car gas. Too much will make it power slide (LSD on the rear) though, but lifting off will end up with me going off the road for sure. Interestingly enough laying on the brakes before a turn on an ice race will make the car COMPLETELY understeer (only way I could initiate a slide was with lots of power or by going into the corner too fast). The end result was that I had to get on the gas and feather it untill the car straightened out.
Personally I don't feel safe driving the car at anything faster than 70MPH on snow, even with dedicated snow tires. For an AWD car, I would expect it to be a lot more stable.
Hope this makes sense; I've been up since 4AM :lol:
| Storm | 05-19-2005 09:06 PM |
Both feet in is usually the best recourse when you're spinning is imminent. Just get the car stopped. Keep the wheel wherever it is and hold on. If you have the thought to pull your thumbs out of the way of the spokes....that may help keep you from getting them flung or broken. On a road course....I wouldn't know because I haven't had the opportunity.
[QUOTE=root]Just wondering what the safest thing to do is when your car oversteers and reaches the point when you know it is impossible to get it back in line?
I've heard the phrase "when in a spin, both feet in". Anyone care to elaborate on that? I assume it means disengage the clutch and hold down the brake? What should you do with the steering wheel?
And there is also "when in doubt, both feet out". What is the doubt? When you think you are about to go into a spin as opposed to actually being in one? In which case, let of the gas and don't hit the brakes?[/QUOTE]
Both feet out is used when you know you're going to impact something very shortly. Go fetal and pull your arms and legs in as close to you as you can to minimize chances of the car crushing your feet or flailing arms breaking on other parts of the car. Again...I haven't had the opportunity to practice this either. Autocross spins are quite normal for me and doesn't generally get my heart rate soaring like it used to..... :lol:
Jay Storm
[QUOTE=root]Just wondering what the safest thing to do is when your car oversteers and reaches the point when you know it is impossible to get it back in line?
I've heard the phrase "when in a spin, both feet in". Anyone care to elaborate on that? I assume it means disengage the clutch and hold down the brake? What should you do with the steering wheel?
And there is also "when in doubt, both feet out". What is the doubt? When you think you are about to go into a spin as opposed to actually being in one? In which case, let of the gas and don't hit the brakes?[/QUOTE]
Both feet out is used when you know you're going to impact something very shortly. Go fetal and pull your arms and legs in as close to you as you can to minimize chances of the car crushing your feet or flailing arms breaking on other parts of the car. Again...I haven't had the opportunity to practice this either. Autocross spins are quite normal for me and doesn't generally get my heart rate soaring like it used to..... :lol:
Jay Storm
| ChrisDP | 05-20-2005 12:28 AM |
"Both feet in" is when I REALLY wish my car didn't have ABS... I'm not a fan of the car continuing to change directions after I've gone to "abort" mode. Once you ARE spinning... don't stop driving the car. You might still need to steer/let off the brake to aim the car away from something hard like another car if possible.
| adhowe70 | 05-20-2005 01:32 AM |
[QUOTE=409Industries]maybe its just my ignorance, but i remember hearing that if youre swinging too far around and you know your losing control to not completly let off the gas because for sure you will end up in a spin. is that correct? if you know your gonna come around backwards, can you stay somewhat on the throttle to bring it back under control?[/QUOTE]
In a word, no.
Throttle will help you regain stability in mild slides. Once you've gone past that point of no return and you're definitely going around, both feet in! Continuing to drive the car once you've lost the ability to continue in your intended direction should only be done for one reason: to hit something softer. If continuing to try to save the car for 2 more seconds will get you past that big tree, do it. Otherwise, spin it into the ditch and take your lumps. There's a tree just down the road you don't want to hit.
In my S2000, I've gotten very good at "finishing the spin" and not leaving the autocross course. My technique involves abandoning both feet in when I'm finishing the first 180 so I can steer the car through a second 180. I'd call this an "advanced technique" that I probably shouldn't be teaching other people. :lol:
In a word, no.
Throttle will help you regain stability in mild slides. Once you've gone past that point of no return and you're definitely going around, both feet in! Continuing to drive the car once you've lost the ability to continue in your intended direction should only be done for one reason: to hit something softer. If continuing to try to save the car for 2 more seconds will get you past that big tree, do it. Otherwise, spin it into the ditch and take your lumps. There's a tree just down the road you don't want to hit.
In my S2000, I've gotten very good at "finishing the spin" and not leaving the autocross course. My technique involves abandoning both feet in when I'm finishing the first 180 so I can steer the car through a second 180. I'd call this an "advanced technique" that I probably shouldn't be teaching other people. :lol:
| V6TurboTA | 05-20-2005 01:39 AM |
[quote]When in a spin... the safest thing to do is? [/quote]
Read the manual.
~v6
Read the manual.
~v6
| NeoteriX | 05-20-2005 01:53 AM |
[QUOTE=V6TurboTA]Read the manual.
~v6[/QUOTE]
:lol: :lol:
~v6[/QUOTE]
:lol: :lol:
| ANZAC_1915 | 05-20-2005 02:56 AM |
I have recently discovered there are exceptions to this rule.
I was driving on wet grass in my 2WD rally car at Oregon Trail and lost it, so used "In a spin, right foot in" to make it a 360. :devil:
I also did this in the STi for one of the ice races on Alcan 2004 when I rotated too much for one of the hairpin corners.
I guess IF the clock is ticking and IF you are still in some amount of control then it might be ok.
But yes, on the track, both feet in.
Glenn
I was driving on wet grass in my 2WD rally car at Oregon Trail and lost it, so used "In a spin, right foot in" to make it a 360. :devil:
I also did this in the STi for one of the ice races on Alcan 2004 when I rotated too much for one of the hairpin corners.
I guess IF the clock is ticking and IF you are still in some amount of control then it might be ok.
But yes, on the track, both feet in.
Glenn
| ChgoJay | 05-20-2005 03:01 AM |
When in a spin I generally like to panic, let go of the wheel, close my eyes and scream like a little biyatch. Hope that helps!
| Dussander | 05-20-2005 10:38 AM |
Don't do both feet in if you are in a kart. :)
Pretty much when I spin, I concentrate on not stallling the kart. First finding the clutch (which you would think wouldn't be hard since it is mounted to the steering wheel), then blipping the throttle enough to keep the engine from stalling, all while braking. In the shifter, I pretty much turn 180 and that is it, since the rear is so much heavier then the front. Also, stalling is a much bigger issue in a kart because people really don't like to push you to get you started again.
Pretty much when I spin, I concentrate on not stallling the kart. First finding the clutch (which you would think wouldn't be hard since it is mounted to the steering wheel), then blipping the throttle enough to keep the engine from stalling, all while braking. In the shifter, I pretty much turn 180 and that is it, since the rear is so much heavier then the front. Also, stalling is a much bigger issue in a kart because people really don't like to push you to get you started again.
| kfoote | 05-20-2005 12:26 PM |
[QUOTE=Dussander]Don't do both feet in if you are in a kart. :)
... [/QUOTE]
And if you're a left foot braker, like me, make sure the pedals that you go for are the brake and clutch, not brake and gas. Been there, done that, stalled the car and felt really silly.
... [/QUOTE]
And if you're a left foot braker, like me, make sure the pedals that you go for are the brake and clutch, not brake and gas. Been there, done that, stalled the car and felt really silly.
| GuessWho | 05-20-2005 12:28 PM |
[QUOTE=ChgoJay]When in a spin I generally like to panic, let go of the wheel, close my eyes and scream like a little biyatch. Hope that helps![/QUOTE]
Don't forget to pray to your preferred deity(s). That being said, most of the bad (accident causing) spins on public roads or race courses I've seen in person have been a result of the driver trying to save it, snapping the car around, and hitting the inside of the corner. I have no idea why it does that.
Don't forget to pray to your preferred deity(s). That being said, most of the bad (accident causing) spins on public roads or race courses I've seen in person have been a result of the driver trying to save it, snapping the car around, and hitting the inside of the corner. I have no idea why it does that.
| root | 05-20-2005 01:33 PM |
It would seem that being realistic that you have reached the point of no return is very important to minimizing potential damage.. There comes a time when it is just impossible to save and you must immediately change your actions to deal with a spin situation as opposed to attempting to avoid the spin.
| leecea | 05-20-2005 02:57 PM |
At the risk of being flamed for mentioning NASCAR :) I've seen what looks like some impressive attempts to control direction of travel during spins. I sometimes see their wheels locking and unlocking as they rotate. Other times they just leave 'em locked and ride it out. It may be boring, but IMHO the drivers are not fools.
| Dussander | 05-20-2005 03:06 PM |
So do F1 drivers...Montoya spun in the last race and didn't even lose a position. I will try pretty hard to keep going after a spin IF I'm in a safe environment.
| dwx | 05-20-2005 04:05 PM |
Last week I was co-driving a friend's STI at an autocross here. I knew it was going around and was tempted for about .2 seconds to just nail the throttle and spin the whole thing around 360 style. Then I had a flash of common sense and just put both feet in.
| adhowe70 | 05-20-2005 06:40 PM |
[QUOTE=leecea]I've seen what looks like some impressive attempts to control direction of travel during spins. I sometimes see their wheels locking and unlocking as they rotate. Other times they just leave 'em locked and ride it out.[/QUOTE]
I'm one of the guys who will lock and unlock while spinning, but as I mentioned before... its an advanced technique. I recently changed the direction of a spin to miss the timing lights at an event. I've even done the wheelspin to a stop thing to keep from wiping out a wall of cones. You get a feel for it.
I think those of us that are comfortable doing this have spun more times than we care to mention or consider. I had a half dozen spins at National Tour autocrosses last year alone. That would be 6 for 24 for anyone keeping stats on me. :o
Andy H.
I'm one of the guys who will lock and unlock while spinning, but as I mentioned before... its an advanced technique. I recently changed the direction of a spin to miss the timing lights at an event. I've even done the wheelspin to a stop thing to keep from wiping out a wall of cones. You get a feel for it.
I think those of us that are comfortable doing this have spun more times than we care to mention or consider. I had a half dozen spins at National Tour autocrosses last year alone. That would be 6 for 24 for anyone keeping stats on me. :o
Andy H.
| CirrusWRX | 05-20-2005 08:51 PM |
[QUOTE=root]It would seem that being realistic that you have reached the point of no return is very important to minimizing potential damage.. There comes a time when it is just impossible to save and you must immediately change your actions to deal with a spin situation as opposed to attempting to avoid the spin.[/QUOTE]
I think this statement is probably one of the most important ones yet in this whole thread. Attending the skip barber school, they teach skid control and recovery as the first order of business. They use the term "Correct, Pause, Recovery" (CPR) to illustrate the proper technique.
First order of business, you MUST look where you want to go. If the car begins to step out your head must be up, looking out OVER the car and your eyes must be focused on WHERE you want the car to go, not what you're skidding towards- a HUGE n00b mistake in my opinion. If you look towards the direction you WANT the car to go, you will have a much better chance of recovering the skid. Of course, your instinct is to look at the pretty gaurd rail you're about to nail or how unsoft that oak tree looks, but it's something that can be unlearned and replaced in your brain.
Now that we've delt with the first .01 second of the situation, the next part is to begin to correct by using steering inputs. If you were on the gas when it happened you need to EASE off the gas. If you were on the brakes you need to EASE off the brakes. Any sudden movements will cause a drastic shift/transfer of weight which will further aggrivate the spin which could very likely worses the situation making all of this moot. Using very careful steering inputs in the opposite direction of the spin (your intuitive reaction) you must CONTINUE to look and focus on where you want the car to go even if the car doesn't respond right away (and continues to skid against your steering input)
At this point you will be constantly tweaking your steering input- "Is it enough? Should I add more? More still? Am I at full lock?" Here is where you need to make your critical decision: stay in it or bail. If you're at or approaching full lock and your car is getting darned near close to 90 degrees, you're probably screwed and there is very little chance for a non professional racer to recover. Both feet in and enjoy the ride IMO. ABS could screw you if you put both feet in IMO, so be prepared if you have ABS turned on.
*HOWEVER* if you're starting to feel the car begin to react to your magnificent steering / throttle / braking sk1llz, this is where, I find, a lot of mistakes happen with OVER correction or not undoing the initial correction fast enough. Once the car begins to point in the correct direction, you MUST unwind the steering wheel and recover, otherwise, it's going to snap back in the OTHER direction and you have to go through the ENTIRE process all over again. All too often, (IMO) many drivers' reactions are just too slow to counteract the beginning of the second (or third, or fourth skid...) They wait to long to unwind the steering wheel, thus causing ANOTHER skid (constant fishtailing back and forth.)
I am NOT an expert, and this is but one opinion in a sea of opinions. Take it with a grain of salt. I feel justified in saying I grew up in the 90s during the age of manditory nintendo/sega reflexes. I spun numerous times at skip barber- Probably three dozen over the course of two days. I was frequently reminded that one of the MAIN reasons I spun was because I was looking straight ahead or looking at the cone I was about to hit. In certain cases it is VERY possible you need to be practically looking out the passenger/driver side window to successfully save the skid. Your reactions need to be UBER fast but smooth. You have to make the split second decision of whether to keep on it or give up, and that happens right before 90 degrees and full lock IMO. Sure giving it some gas MAY help you get a few more degrees out of it, but I think if you're advanced enough to throttle yourself out of a skid like that, you already know way more than me. For everybody else (me included), PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE!! :D
I won't try and argue that every skid/spin is recoverable, but I would say that the sooner and faster you react to it, the better the chance that you're going to be able to save it. Watch "The Drift Bible" if you want to see lightening reflexes and amazing car control. It's like he can feel the car about to spin BEFORE it actually does. Almost like he can sense it happening and begin correcting even before anything happens. Or maybe that's because I just saw Star Wars...
Again, just my .02 - take free info FWIW.
Edit: OMG - I had written correct, POINT recover, when it should be correct PAUSE, recover. Which is what I "described" - that's the "pause while you're waiting for the car to respond/react to your steering inputs."
THANKS fastwrx :o
I think this statement is probably one of the most important ones yet in this whole thread. Attending the skip barber school, they teach skid control and recovery as the first order of business. They use the term "Correct, Pause, Recovery" (CPR) to illustrate the proper technique.
First order of business, you MUST look where you want to go. If the car begins to step out your head must be up, looking out OVER the car and your eyes must be focused on WHERE you want the car to go, not what you're skidding towards- a HUGE n00b mistake in my opinion. If you look towards the direction you WANT the car to go, you will have a much better chance of recovering the skid. Of course, your instinct is to look at the pretty gaurd rail you're about to nail or how unsoft that oak tree looks, but it's something that can be unlearned and replaced in your brain.
Now that we've delt with the first .01 second of the situation, the next part is to begin to correct by using steering inputs. If you were on the gas when it happened you need to EASE off the gas. If you were on the brakes you need to EASE off the brakes. Any sudden movements will cause a drastic shift/transfer of weight which will further aggrivate the spin which could very likely worses the situation making all of this moot. Using very careful steering inputs in the opposite direction of the spin (your intuitive reaction) you must CONTINUE to look and focus on where you want the car to go even if the car doesn't respond right away (and continues to skid against your steering input)
At this point you will be constantly tweaking your steering input- "Is it enough? Should I add more? More still? Am I at full lock?" Here is where you need to make your critical decision: stay in it or bail. If you're at or approaching full lock and your car is getting darned near close to 90 degrees, you're probably screwed and there is very little chance for a non professional racer to recover. Both feet in and enjoy the ride IMO. ABS could screw you if you put both feet in IMO, so be prepared if you have ABS turned on.
*HOWEVER* if you're starting to feel the car begin to react to your magnificent steering / throttle / braking sk1llz, this is where, I find, a lot of mistakes happen with OVER correction or not undoing the initial correction fast enough. Once the car begins to point in the correct direction, you MUST unwind the steering wheel and recover, otherwise, it's going to snap back in the OTHER direction and you have to go through the ENTIRE process all over again. All too often, (IMO) many drivers' reactions are just too slow to counteract the beginning of the second (or third, or fourth skid...) They wait to long to unwind the steering wheel, thus causing ANOTHER skid (constant fishtailing back and forth.)
I am NOT an expert, and this is but one opinion in a sea of opinions. Take it with a grain of salt. I feel justified in saying I grew up in the 90s during the age of manditory nintendo/sega reflexes. I spun numerous times at skip barber- Probably three dozen over the course of two days. I was frequently reminded that one of the MAIN reasons I spun was because I was looking straight ahead or looking at the cone I was about to hit. In certain cases it is VERY possible you need to be practically looking out the passenger/driver side window to successfully save the skid. Your reactions need to be UBER fast but smooth. You have to make the split second decision of whether to keep on it or give up, and that happens right before 90 degrees and full lock IMO. Sure giving it some gas MAY help you get a few more degrees out of it, but I think if you're advanced enough to throttle yourself out of a skid like that, you already know way more than me. For everybody else (me included), PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE!! :D
I won't try and argue that every skid/spin is recoverable, but I would say that the sooner and faster you react to it, the better the chance that you're going to be able to save it. Watch "The Drift Bible" if you want to see lightening reflexes and amazing car control. It's like he can feel the car about to spin BEFORE it actually does. Almost like he can sense it happening and begin correcting even before anything happens. Or maybe that's because I just saw Star Wars...
Again, just my .02 - take free info FWIW.
Edit: OMG - I had written correct, POINT recover, when it should be correct PAUSE, recover. Which is what I "described" - that's the "pause while you're waiting for the car to respond/react to your steering inputs."
THANKS fastwrx :o
| fastwrx | 05-20-2005 10:01 PM |
Good post, cirrusWRX. I thought CPR meant "Correct, PAUSE, Recover," though. I've done Skippy's 3-day Racing and 2-day Advanced Racing schools. What a blast. I had my share of TTO spins. And, wow, does it happen FAST!
You're exactly right about most people doing the "pause" part too long. They correct and hold that position too long and initiate a spin in the opposite direction. If you watch in-car video of someone who can save a car in a skid, you'll notice the correction is VERY quick. It's almost anticipatory. They correct at the FIRST hint of slide. The "pause" is also very short.
I watched one of my instructors at Skippy School, Peter Argetsinger, drive, and he was amazing. He danced the Formula Dodge around turns like Fred Astaire leading Ginger Rogers. The steering input corrections are constant and subtle as he intentionally slid the car around turns. It was very cool to watch.
Speaking of pros recovering spins... I remember watching Danny Sullivan in 1985 perform his famous "spin and win" at the Indy 500. It was truly amazing to watch. He was leading the race, did a 360-degree spin, recovered, and dropped into 2nd place as Mario Andretti slipped under him. He later re-passed Andretti to win the Indy 500.
Mike
You're exactly right about most people doing the "pause" part too long. They correct and hold that position too long and initiate a spin in the opposite direction. If you watch in-car video of someone who can save a car in a skid, you'll notice the correction is VERY quick. It's almost anticipatory. They correct at the FIRST hint of slide. The "pause" is also very short.
I watched one of my instructors at Skippy School, Peter Argetsinger, drive, and he was amazing. He danced the Formula Dodge around turns like Fred Astaire leading Ginger Rogers. The steering input corrections are constant and subtle as he intentionally slid the car around turns. It was very cool to watch.
Speaking of pros recovering spins... I remember watching Danny Sullivan in 1985 perform his famous "spin and win" at the Indy 500. It was truly amazing to watch. He was leading the race, did a 360-degree spin, recovered, and dropped into 2nd place as Mario Andretti slipped under him. He later re-passed Andretti to win the Indy 500.
Mike
| CirrusWRX | 05-20-2005 10:25 PM |
I feel so embarrassed for writing "point" - you obviously can't "point" the car during a spin. :lol: I meant pause, thanks for spotting it!! :o
Yeah - you summed up exactly what I was trying to say when I was talking about The Drift King (I can't spell his real name so I won't try.) He is lightening with the reflexes, yet extremely subtle. No extra or erroneous steering inputs, only what is needed; nothing more, nothing less. Just like you said, I almost want to say, if the car starts to spin, you're probably already to late to make a clean save. It's almost like you should never be surprised that the car spun, more like you just aren't fast enough to catch it.
But remember the old saying, "If you're spinnin, you're winnin!" :lol:
Yeah - you summed up exactly what I was trying to say when I was talking about The Drift King (I can't spell his real name so I won't try.) He is lightening with the reflexes, yet extremely subtle. No extra or erroneous steering inputs, only what is needed; nothing more, nothing less. Just like you said, I almost want to say, if the car starts to spin, you're probably already to late to make a clean save. It's almost like you should never be surprised that the car spun, more like you just aren't fast enough to catch it.
But remember the old saying, "If you're spinnin, you're winnin!" :lol:
| fastwrx | 05-20-2005 10:58 PM |
Cirrus... Just noticed your profile says "noob runswick." As in... New Brunswick, Canada? My mom is from St. John, originally. Still got her side of the family in that area.
Mike
Mike
| ANZAC_1915 | 05-21-2005 01:05 AM |
[QUOTE=adhowe70]I've even done the wheelspin to a stop thing to keep from wiping out a wall of cones. [/QUOTE]
Was that the same thing I did at Bremerton NT in 2001? In any event, lots of white smoke!! Turning into an impending spin coming out of the slalom, kept the gas on and wheel on full lock, car came to a stop with all 4 slowly spinning, sort of like a jack knifed truck.
Was that the same thing I did at Bremerton NT in 2001? In any event, lots of white smoke!! Turning into an impending spin coming out of the slalom, kept the gas on and wheel on full lock, car came to a stop with all 4 slowly spinning, sort of like a jack knifed truck.
| Patrick L | 05-21-2005 07:03 AM |
I wish I had seen this post when it was started.
I suggest you....put your head between your legs and kiss your ass good bye. :lol: :D j/k
I suggest you....put your head between your legs and kiss your ass good bye. :lol: :D j/k
| powerlabs | 05-21-2005 03:04 PM |
[QUOTE=Top_Dog]I wish I had seen this post when it was started.
I suggest you....put your head between your legs and kiss your ass good bye. :lol: :D j/k[/QUOTE]
The problem with doing that is that, when the airbag goes off, it will make you bite your own weiner off... :lol:
I suggest you....put your head between your legs and kiss your ass good bye. :lol: :D j/k[/QUOTE]
The problem with doing that is that, when the airbag goes off, it will make you bite your own weiner off... :lol:
| RRR-K2 | 05-21-2005 07:07 PM |
When you KNOW you're going to hit homething (hard), just before the impact pull your legs up/in away from the footwell and pull your hands back/away from the wheel.
I have seen a couple of times where the wheel has pounded back/in the firewall/footwell a bit. In fact, it happened to us once.
Just my $.02
Matt Kennedy
[URL=http://www.RockyRoadRacing.com][U][COLOR=DarkRed]www.RockyRoadRacing.com[/COLOR][/U][/URL]
I have seen a couple of times where the wheel has pounded back/in the firewall/footwell a bit. In fact, it happened to us once.
Just my $.02
Matt Kennedy
[URL=http://www.RockyRoadRacing.com][U][COLOR=DarkRed]www.RockyRoadRacing.com[/COLOR][/U][/URL]
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