| REX8 | 02-18-2007 09:20 PM |
Where oh where are the entry level track tires!
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This maybe a little bit of a rant, but it keeps popping into my head:
Why is it, that even in the face of an explosion of increased HPDE/track driving attendance, not a single tire manufacturer has stepped up with an affordable good wearing track tire?
With all the people getting by on Azenis, MX's, S-03's etc. as their "track tires", you'd think someone would explore the market in this area.
We all know that guys who want to win will run the top tires. Why then do Nitto, Hankook, etc. etc. come out with R comps, knowing they don't have the speed to compete, yet still price themselves out of the market?
How many middle of the road performing/priced R's will we see fail before they get it?
Instead of letting the tooling for 032r's, Victo's, etc. sit in the basement of their respective manufacturing plants rotting away, how about use them to crank out $80-100 entry level track day rubber?
Why is it that Kumho can make an MX, an outstanding tire in the heat, but fails to come out with a similarly priced version resembling more of a slick? You can't tell me a $90 MX based tire, more devoid of a treadpattern wouldn't sell like crazy for the weekend track guys.
Would re-releasing the 032r for half the price not make a much much more attractive HPDE tire then MX's or 615's???
The market is there, if they want, manufacturer can reuse old R/D/tooling etc.. Whats stopping them?
No one interested in the best possible results will by a track spec MX carcass over a 710, so hurting sales doesnt appear to be much of an issue. Have they not noticed the DROVES of people attending track days just looking to improve their skills and run strong, season after season??
Thoughts?
Why is it, that even in the face of an explosion of increased HPDE/track driving attendance, not a single tire manufacturer has stepped up with an affordable good wearing track tire?
With all the people getting by on Azenis, MX's, S-03's etc. as their "track tires", you'd think someone would explore the market in this area.
We all know that guys who want to win will run the top tires. Why then do Nitto, Hankook, etc. etc. come out with R comps, knowing they don't have the speed to compete, yet still price themselves out of the market?
How many middle of the road performing/priced R's will we see fail before they get it?
Instead of letting the tooling for 032r's, Victo's, etc. sit in the basement of their respective manufacturing plants rotting away, how about use them to crank out $80-100 entry level track day rubber?
Why is it that Kumho can make an MX, an outstanding tire in the heat, but fails to come out with a similarly priced version resembling more of a slick? You can't tell me a $90 MX based tire, more devoid of a treadpattern wouldn't sell like crazy for the weekend track guys.
Would re-releasing the 032r for half the price not make a much much more attractive HPDE tire then MX's or 615's???
The market is there, if they want, manufacturer can reuse old R/D/tooling etc.. Whats stopping them?
No one interested in the best possible results will by a track spec MX carcass over a 710, so hurting sales doesnt appear to be much of an issue. Have they not noticed the DROVES of people attending track days just looking to improve their skills and run strong, season after season??
Thoughts?
| blue blurr | 02-18-2007 09:46 PM |
Hankook Z211 are extremely cheap right now
| mav1c | 02-18-2007 09:57 PM |
I don't think there's a need for what you're talking about. I think the MX, RT-615, RE01, Neova, and RS-2 are enough of an offering for a high-grip street tire, while the Nitto NT-01, Yoko A048, Michelin Sport Cup, and Toyo RA-1 are a good "entry level" R-Comp. The first group of tires aar great for someone to start doing track days, and the second group is a good first R-Comp tire. Personally I'd like to see more "entry level" R-Comp tires, or at least maybe a few more sizes from the current ones out there. Looking forward to see if Toyo will ever bring their newer R-Comp to the U.S.
| adhowe70 | 02-18-2007 11:55 PM |
I think you underestimate the cost of manufacturing these tires. Companies would be losing money to build R-compound type tires and sell them for less than $100 each.
| bemani | 02-19-2007 05:04 AM |
So what exactly would an 'entry track tire' do? If you want something slow and to last long, just buy some street tires :lol:
| Paisan | 02-19-2007 05:30 AM |
If you can't drive well on MX or Azenis, an "entry" level R is only going to hide your inept driving. Get real fast on MX or Azenis and then hop to the RA1s which last forever and are considered "entry" level IMO.
-mike
-mike
| leecea | 02-19-2007 10:30 AM |
It seems that a lot of the 'slower' R-tires have deals as spec tires for a class (I don't think there are any spec Hoosiers or 710s classes). I'm sure many of these tires are out there to help with marketing and a 'spec' tire deal allows them to do that.
| REX8 | 02-19-2007 11:11 AM |
[QUOTE=adhowe70;17099138]I think you underestimate the cost of manufacturing these tires. Companies would be losing money to build R-compound type tires and sell them for less than $100 each.[/QUOTE]
You're saying cost of materials alone would push the price up? Because all the tooling, etc. is already done (again, use an old tire and re-release).
Further, as I stated, use a comstruction similar to a street tire, and change the thread pattern...which we know doesn't cost anything.
You're saying it costs Falken $20 to make an RT615, and it costs Yok. So much more to make a 32R?
I don't buy it. They charge so much because the numbers they sell them in are low.
You're saying cost of materials alone would push the price up? Because all the tooling, etc. is already done (again, use an old tire and re-release).
Further, as I stated, use a comstruction similar to a street tire, and change the thread pattern...which we know doesn't cost anything.
You're saying it costs Falken $20 to make an RT615, and it costs Yok. So much more to make a 32R?
I don't buy it. They charge so much because the numbers they sell them in are low.
| REX8 | 02-19-2007 11:12 AM |
[QUOTE=Paisan;17100922]If you can't drive well on MX or Azenis, an "entry" level R is only going to hide your inept driving. Get real fast on MX or Azenis and then hop to the RA1s which last forever and are considered "entry" level IMO.
-mike[/QUOTE]
Maybe on your car they do, but wus heavier guys tend to go through them in maybe 1.5 seasons, with good camber.
-mike[/QUOTE]
Maybe on your car they do, but wus heavier guys tend to go through them in maybe 1.5 seasons, with good camber.
| REX8 | 02-19-2007 11:18 AM |
[QUOTE=mav1c;17098071]I don't think there's a need for what you're talking about. I think the MX, RT-615, RE01, Neova, and RS-2 are enough of an offering for a high-grip street tire, while the Nitto NT-01, Yoko A048, Michelin Sport Cup, and Toyo RA-1 are a good "entry level" R-Comp. The first group of tires aar great for someone to start doing track days, and the second group is a good first R-Comp tire. Personally I'd like to see more "entry level" R-Comp tires, or at least maybe a few more sizes from the current ones out there. Looking forward to see if Toyo will ever bring their newer R-Comp to the U.S.[/QUOTE]
Do you not see all the guys scouring the pits begging for peoples used up R's? Every guy that runs MX's etc. just for track days wouldn't have spent the same money on a more track worth tire? I just see TOO many people looking for soemthing affordable out there.
How can a $175+/per tire be good "entry level"??? Those are (beyond) blue chip prices.
Only the wealthiest guys running in the middle groups drop $800 on a new set of R's.
Don't get me wrong, when I want to run RA's, I buy them, and I'm also fine on street tires. But I certainly see a large growing number of people looking to get into tracking, and when they see how much R's cost, they ask what street tires will work the best. If they had a cost equiv., they'd sure as yet buy it...
And the lines to pick up used up R's at track days wouldn't be so long... :lol:
Do you not see all the guys scouring the pits begging for peoples used up R's? Every guy that runs MX's etc. just for track days wouldn't have spent the same money on a more track worth tire? I just see TOO many people looking for soemthing affordable out there.
How can a $175+/per tire be good "entry level"??? Those are (beyond) blue chip prices.
Only the wealthiest guys running in the middle groups drop $800 on a new set of R's.
Don't get me wrong, when I want to run RA's, I buy them, and I'm also fine on street tires. But I certainly see a large growing number of people looking to get into tracking, and when they see how much R's cost, they ask what street tires will work the best. If they had a cost equiv., they'd sure as yet buy it...
And the lines to pick up used up R's at track days wouldn't be so long... :lol:
| Draken | 02-19-2007 11:19 AM |
"ONLY" 1.5 seasons for a set of track tires? Oh the humanity!
Chris H.
-v710s have lasted for a full season, with probably two more to go.
Chris H.
-v710s have lasted for a full season, with probably two more to go.
| REX8 | 02-19-2007 11:21 AM |
[QUOTE=bemani;17100885]So what exactly would an 'entry track tire' do? If you want something slow and to last long, just buy some street tires :lol:[/QUOTE]
You mean like an RA-1? Not competitive against the stickier R's, but still sell?
They do buy street tires, BECAUSE they don't have a choice.
Guys don't buy race rubber because the cost is double or tripple what a street tire runs.
If you were a weekend tracker and had a choice between a slick like MX carcass, or the street version at the same price, who woudln't by the track version for thier track tires?
You mean like an RA-1? Not competitive against the stickier R's, but still sell?
They do buy street tires, BECAUSE they don't have a choice.
Guys don't buy race rubber because the cost is double or tripple what a street tire runs.
If you were a weekend tracker and had a choice between a slick like MX carcass, or the street version at the same price, who woudln't by the track version for thier track tires?
| REX8 | 02-19-2007 11:23 AM |
[QUOTE=Draken;17102743]"ONLY" 1.5 seasons for a set of track tires? Oh the humanity!
Chris H.
-v710s have lasted for a full season, with probably two more to go.[/QUOTE]
Not saying thats bad..
But there are people out there, on limited budgets, who are looking for more out of their dollar.
I love RA-1's, in IMO, they're not too expensive for their wear, I've obviously bought them.
My point is that with the growth in the sport, the tire selection hasn't changed! There's a market, it gets bigger every year. And no one has tried to find it yet.
How could the face of a sport change so much, its market expand liek crazy, and yet we are left with no new choices for all those new participants???
(BTW, is that 3 seasons on your fiat? )
Chris H.
-v710s have lasted for a full season, with probably two more to go.[/QUOTE]
Not saying thats bad..
But there are people out there, on limited budgets, who are looking for more out of their dollar.
I love RA-1's, in IMO, they're not too expensive for their wear, I've obviously bought them.
My point is that with the growth in the sport, the tire selection hasn't changed! There's a market, it gets bigger every year. And no one has tried to find it yet.
How could the face of a sport change so much, its market expand liek crazy, and yet we are left with no new choices for all those new participants???
(BTW, is that 3 seasons on your fiat? )
| REX8 | 02-19-2007 11:25 AM |
[QUOTE=Paisan;17100922]If you can't drive well on MX or Azenis, an "entry" level R is only going to hide your inept driving. Get real fast on MX or Azenis and then hop to the RA1s which last forever and are considered "entry" level IMO.
-mike[/QUOTE]
I agree, and consider RA-1's entry level in everyway but price.
-mike[/QUOTE]
I agree, and consider RA-1's entry level in everyway but price.
| REX8 | 02-19-2007 11:30 AM |
[QUOTE=blue blurr;17097971]Hankook Z211 are extremely cheap right now[/QUOTE]
My point exactly!
My point exactly!
| BIGSKYWRX | 02-19-2007 11:45 AM |
[url]http://www.frisbyracetire.com/z211sale.html[/url]
looks a like a steal to me :)
looks a like a steal to me :)
| ITWRX4ME | 02-19-2007 11:51 AM |
Being the cheap bastard that I am, I'm trying a set of these [url=http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Sumitomo&tireModel=HTR+Z&vehicleSearch=false&partnum=74ZR7HTRZ&fromCompare1=yes&place=0]Sumitomo HTR-Z tires[/url]. I'll let you know if they fly apart at VIR this weekend. ;) These are going on my Factory Five Cobra replica. I just couldn't justify paying $176 each, plus shipping, for the spec Toyo RA-1.
UTQG rating of 160 AA so it's a little harder than the RA-1. But at $88 plus shipping...
UTQG rating of 160 AA so it's a little harder than the RA-1. But at $88 plus shipping...
| REX8 | 02-19-2007 11:56 AM |
[QUOTE=BIGSKYWRX;17103052][url]http://www.frisbyracetire.com/z211sale.html[/url]
looks a like a steal to me :)[/QUOTE]
I agree, but those aren't their normal pricing. Those tires are on their way out.
Why? Because yet again, they priced themselves out of the market by being uncompetitive and still expensive.
Just pick one to be successful! (fast or cheap)
looks a like a steal to me :)[/QUOTE]
I agree, but those aren't their normal pricing. Those tires are on their way out.
Why? Because yet again, they priced themselves out of the market by being uncompetitive and still expensive.
Just pick one to be successful! (fast or cheap)
| solo-x | 02-19-2007 12:09 PM |
Which do you think is more expensive? The tooling for a new tire line, or the DOT approval process for even a re-released tire line?
You're missing another factor in the street tire prevelance at DE's. Some people just plain don't want to change tires. Drive too and from the track on the same tires you play on? BONUS!
BTW, 205/50/15 Azenis RT-615's on a nationally competitive STS civic are gone after one season. Of course, they start out shaved to 4/32's, but they are also heat cycled out.
Finally, its a freakin DE. Like someone in The Sandbox said, there is no national HPDE championship. For a pure learning environment, why spend money for a second set of tires at all? Let alone any level of r-comp?
You're missing another factor in the street tire prevelance at DE's. Some people just plain don't want to change tires. Drive too and from the track on the same tires you play on? BONUS!
BTW, 205/50/15 Azenis RT-615's on a nationally competitive STS civic are gone after one season. Of course, they start out shaved to 4/32's, but they are also heat cycled out.
Finally, its a freakin DE. Like someone in The Sandbox said, there is no national HPDE championship. For a pure learning environment, why spend money for a second set of tires at all? Let alone any level of r-comp?
| REX8 | 02-19-2007 12:14 PM |
[QUOTE=solo-x;17103330]Which do you think is more expensive? The tooling for a new tire line, or the DOT approval process for even a re-released tire line?
You're missing another factor in the street tire prevelance at DE's. Some people just plain don't want to change tires. Drive too and from the track on the same tires you play on? BONUS!
BTW, 205/50/15 Azenis RT-615's on a nationally competitive STS civic are gone after one season. Of course, they start out shaved to 4/32's, but they are also heat cycled out.
Finally, its a freakin DE. Like someone in The Sandbox said, there is no national HPDE championship. For a pure learning environment, why spend money for a second set of tires at all? Let alone any level of r-comp?[/QUOTE]
I have an ME buddy working for Michelin, I'll look into how much it costs to DOT approve a tire...I'm doubting more than the tens of thousands it takes to produce tooling.
Regardless, re-release an existing older tire already approved. I agree with you on your logic, I've ran a half used set of 710s and a full set of RA's and I will be using street tires for the foreseeable future. Unfortunately, the masses aren't on that program.
Look at how many people already run R's at HPDE's. How about the amount of people on aftermarket suspensions (don't need them to learn either).
Regardless of whether that makes for sense or not, the market is there. I'm not passing over the guys that don't want to change rubber. I know they are out there. The fact still remains that the lines are out the door for hand-me down R's...and there are A LOT of people who bring a second set of wheels, with street rubber on them (silly as that may be).
You're missing another factor in the street tire prevelance at DE's. Some people just plain don't want to change tires. Drive too and from the track on the same tires you play on? BONUS!
BTW, 205/50/15 Azenis RT-615's on a nationally competitive STS civic are gone after one season. Of course, they start out shaved to 4/32's, but they are also heat cycled out.
Finally, its a freakin DE. Like someone in The Sandbox said, there is no national HPDE championship. For a pure learning environment, why spend money for a second set of tires at all? Let alone any level of r-comp?[/QUOTE]
I have an ME buddy working for Michelin, I'll look into how much it costs to DOT approve a tire...I'm doubting more than the tens of thousands it takes to produce tooling.
Regardless, re-release an existing older tire already approved. I agree with you on your logic, I've ran a half used set of 710s and a full set of RA's and I will be using street tires for the foreseeable future. Unfortunately, the masses aren't on that program.
Look at how many people already run R's at HPDE's. How about the amount of people on aftermarket suspensions (don't need them to learn either).
Regardless of whether that makes for sense or not, the market is there. I'm not passing over the guys that don't want to change rubber. I know they are out there. The fact still remains that the lines are out the door for hand-me down R's...and there are A LOT of people who bring a second set of wheels, with street rubber on them (silly as that may be).
| 10th Warrior | 02-19-2007 12:24 PM |
[quote]Why is it, that even in the face of an explosion of increased HPDE/track driving attendance, not a single tire manufacturer has stepped up with an affordable good wearing track tire?[/quote]
Not sure what you have against the victo? Its reasonably priced, available in a billion sizes, and lasts a long time.
Not sure what you have against the victo? Its reasonably priced, available in a billion sizes, and lasts a long time.
| REX8 | 02-19-2007 01:02 PM |
[QUOTE=10th Warrior;17103496]Not sure what you have against the victo? Its reasonably priced, available in a billion sizes, and lasts a long time.[/QUOTE]
Nothing, they were the first R"s I was ever on. Great tires. Still, $150 for a 16" 225 just isn't cheap, not expensive, but not cheap.
An RA-1, which lasts significantly longer on the track only cost a couple bucks more in that size.
Victo's would be a more financially burdensome choice for weekend track guys than other tires out there.
Nothing, they were the first R"s I was ever on. Great tires. Still, $150 for a 16" 225 just isn't cheap, not expensive, but not cheap.
An RA-1, which lasts significantly longer on the track only cost a couple bucks more in that size.
Victo's would be a more financially burdensome choice for weekend track guys than other tires out there.
| leecea | 02-19-2007 01:16 PM |
I think of Victoracers as entry level autox Rs. They are fast enough to seperate you from any pesky street tire people running stock, and last a very long time. Given the number of runs they'll give, their cost of ownership is probably like getting a Hoosier for $75.
| jcroy66 | 02-19-2007 01:57 PM |
I'm not sure who you're trying to convince? Or why?
FWIW, I agree with solo-x. There's no "HPDE championship". If I'm not going out there to win (in which case, money would be no object), then I'm 100% happy taking someone else's hand-me-downs. Why would I pay one cent for a tire if I can get a tire just as good for free? Because I'd guess a heat-cycled-top-of-the-line-R is likely going to be faster than an entry-level-R. It just won't last quite as long.
FWIW, I agree with solo-x. There's no "HPDE championship". If I'm not going out there to win (in which case, money would be no object), then I'm 100% happy taking someone else's hand-me-downs. Why would I pay one cent for a tire if I can get a tire just as good for free? Because I'd guess a heat-cycled-top-of-the-line-R is likely going to be faster than an entry-level-R. It just won't last quite as long.
| cooleyjb | 02-19-2007 02:36 PM |
So we're talking about doing an HPDE where you could end up destroying your 25,000 dollar car, while the DE cost 400 bucks, the transportation to and from cost 350.00 on the 1500.00 trailer, the hotel cost 400 bucks, the brake pads cost 100 bucks and you want to save 25 dollars a tire for what could be argued as one of the most important parts of the car in terms of saftey/performance. I'm not sure what the point of this topic is. If you want to skimp on costs buy used tires from John Berget or one of the other tire resellers out there.
| REX8 | 02-19-2007 02:43 PM |
[QUOTE=cooleyjb;17104963]So we're talking about doing an HPDE where you could end up destroying your 25,000 dollar car, while the DE cost 400 bucks, the transportation to and from cost 350.00 on the 1500.00 trailer, the hotel cost 400 bucks, the brake pads cost 100 bucks and you want to save 25 dollars a tire for what could be argued as one of the most important parts of the car in terms of saftey/performance. I'm not sure what the point of this topic is. If you want to skimp on costs buy used tires from John Berget or one of the other tire resellers out there.[/QUOTE]
No, thats not what this is about. (and what HPDE worthy pads cost $100 ;) )
How about a 4k car with no trailer, driving to the track?
No one is talking about buying unsafe tires either, don't know why you're bring that up.
This is not trying to "skimp" as there are street tires for the price that can be bought, which many many people run.
I'm not complaining about the price of existing tires, racing is expensive. I'm only pointing out that I feel there is a rather big market for an entry level track tire.
Since when is $300 more/per set a small amount of money for your average mid-level HPDE tracker?
No one is calling all the guys running street tires cheap, skimping, and unsafe are they????
(Please, you think its in the interest of safety for guys to be mounting almost killed, used R"s and taking them to the cordes over having a tire they can afford new?)
You missed the entire point:
I'm merely saying that given the demand for used/cheap R's, with the large increase in HPDE drivers leads me to believe that a lower priced, lower performing R would sell...
I'm sorry, it doesn't take a Harvard degree to know that, if a once small market full of die hard guys grows exponentially, and now includes many many more mid-level, "for fun" guys, the market for the products fitting their needs/wants should change. It hasn't in 10 years.
Just for sheetz and giggles, Id be very interested to see how a tire like that would do in light of the vast increase in popularity.
No, thats not what this is about. (and what HPDE worthy pads cost $100 ;) )
How about a 4k car with no trailer, driving to the track?
No one is talking about buying unsafe tires either, don't know why you're bring that up.
This is not trying to "skimp" as there are street tires for the price that can be bought, which many many people run.
I'm not complaining about the price of existing tires, racing is expensive. I'm only pointing out that I feel there is a rather big market for an entry level track tire.
Since when is $300 more/per set a small amount of money for your average mid-level HPDE tracker?
No one is calling all the guys running street tires cheap, skimping, and unsafe are they????
(Please, you think its in the interest of safety for guys to be mounting almost killed, used R"s and taking them to the cordes over having a tire they can afford new?)
You missed the entire point:
I'm merely saying that given the demand for used/cheap R's, with the large increase in HPDE drivers leads me to believe that a lower priced, lower performing R would sell...
I'm sorry, it doesn't take a Harvard degree to know that, if a once small market full of die hard guys grows exponentially, and now includes many many more mid-level, "for fun" guys, the market for the products fitting their needs/wants should change. It hasn't in 10 years.
Just for sheetz and giggles, Id be very interested to see how a tire like that would do in light of the vast increase in popularity.
| Draken | 02-19-2007 03:02 PM |
I've still got a set of Yokohama A-001Rs in the back of the garage if you're interested.
| REX8 | 02-19-2007 03:17 PM |
[QUOTE=Draken;17105294]I've still got a set of Yokohama A-001Rs in the back of the garage if you're interested.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the offer, but I'm good. :)
Think this thread came off wrong. This is not about what I want or need, I can swing the extra $$$ for rubber if need be.
I just was thinking in terms of the current market and I feel its really lacking in light of the changes the sport has seen.
Thanks for the offer, but I'm good. :)
Think this thread came off wrong. This is not about what I want or need, I can swing the extra $$$ for rubber if need be.
I just was thinking in terms of the current market and I feel its really lacking in light of the changes the sport has seen.
| Paisan | 02-19-2007 03:25 PM |
You really can't run R compounds if they have sat all winter in a cold garage, they never work that well afterward IMHO. So essentially you want an R compound that will last 1 season. The RA1s even on a heavy car will last 1 season if you drive well. If you are screaching it around the track you aren't being smooth and are tearing the tires up quicker than necessary.
As for the $, no one said this was a cheap sport. I'm sure that there are threads like this in every sport out there. First one that comes to mind would be golf.
-mike
As for the $, no one said this was a cheap sport. I'm sure that there are threads like this in every sport out there. First one that comes to mind would be golf.
-mike
| cooleyjb | 02-19-2007 03:30 PM |
[QUOTE=REX8;17105046]No, thats not what this is about. (and what HPDE worthy pads cost $100 ;) )
How about a 4k car with no trailer, driving to the track? [/QUOTE]
Probably a relatively lightweight/low hp/easy on tires car if it's 4K. So you get some good mileage out of tires. Why not get the better ones. I can't see an entry level R-compound being under 100 bucks for a 225/50-16 and you can get 710's for 150 or so in that size. 200 dollar difference spread over a season.[QUOTE=REX8;17105046]
No one is talking about buying unsafe tires either, don't know why you're bring that up.[/QUOTE] Never said unsafe but I see how I did imply that.[QUOTE=REX8;17105046]
This is not trying to "skimp" as there are street tires for the price that can be bought, which many many people run.[/QUOTE] Then what is this about. It sounds like wanting something cheaper to me.[QUOTE=REX8;17105046]
I'm not complaining about the price of existing tires, racing is expensive. I'm only pointing out that I feel there is a rather big market for an entry level track tire.[/QUOTE] Yep, they are called high performance street tires.[QUOTE=REX8;17105046]
Since when is $300 more/per set a small amount of money for your average mid-level HPDE tracker?[/QUOTE] Less than the cost of a number of HPDE's[QUOTE=REX8;17105046]
No one is calling all the guys running street tires cheap, skimping, and unsafe are they????[/QUOTE] I never did. It's what I've done many times.[QUOTE=REX8;17105046]
(Please, you think its in the interest of safety for guys to be mounting almost killed, used R"s and taking them to the cordes over having a tire they can afford new?)[/QUOTE] You've never seen the stuff you get from Berget than. They are in great shape, sometimes just scrubbed in and are a heck of a deal.[QUOTE=REX8;17105046]
You missed the entire point:
I'm merely saying that given the demand for used/cheap R's, with the large increase in HPDE drivers leads me to believe that a lower priced, lower performing R would sell...[/QUOTE] As I said before these are the High Perf street tires. The cost gap isn't that big in the scheme of HPDEs. 2-300 bucks seems like a lot but in the scheme of tracking a car it is still relatively minor.[QUOTE=REX8;17105046]
I'm sorry, it doesn't take a Harvard degree to know that, if a once small market full of die hard guys grows exponentially, and now includes many many more mid-level, "for fun" guys, the market for the products fitting their needs/wants should change. It hasn't in 10 years.[/QUOTE] Every single one fo the die hard guys I've met always wants the best tire out there and are going to be willing to spend a few extra bucks on tires for that. [QUOTE=REX8;17105046]
Just for sheetz and giggles, Id be very interested to see how a tire like that would do in light of the vast increase in popularity. [/QUOTE]
I'm not attacking you in this, I'm just saying that the niche you speak of is very small and I would doubt it would be even remotely profitable. An entry level R-compound wouldn't be 75 bucks it would probably be closer to 125 for 225/50-16. For 140 more for a set you can get the V710's and they are right up there with the best. Or if money is tight for 150 less you can get some MX's that aren't too bad but you saved 150 bucks and can buy some brake pads too. Tires are some of the best return on investment for lap improvment and many people will pay for that.
How about a 4k car with no trailer, driving to the track? [/QUOTE]
Probably a relatively lightweight/low hp/easy on tires car if it's 4K. So you get some good mileage out of tires. Why not get the better ones. I can't see an entry level R-compound being under 100 bucks for a 225/50-16 and you can get 710's for 150 or so in that size. 200 dollar difference spread over a season.[QUOTE=REX8;17105046]
No one is talking about buying unsafe tires either, don't know why you're bring that up.[/QUOTE] Never said unsafe but I see how I did imply that.[QUOTE=REX8;17105046]
This is not trying to "skimp" as there are street tires for the price that can be bought, which many many people run.[/QUOTE] Then what is this about. It sounds like wanting something cheaper to me.[QUOTE=REX8;17105046]
I'm not complaining about the price of existing tires, racing is expensive. I'm only pointing out that I feel there is a rather big market for an entry level track tire.[/QUOTE] Yep, they are called high performance street tires.[QUOTE=REX8;17105046]
Since when is $300 more/per set a small amount of money for your average mid-level HPDE tracker?[/QUOTE] Less than the cost of a number of HPDE's[QUOTE=REX8;17105046]
No one is calling all the guys running street tires cheap, skimping, and unsafe are they????[/QUOTE] I never did. It's what I've done many times.[QUOTE=REX8;17105046]
(Please, you think its in the interest of safety for guys to be mounting almost killed, used R"s and taking them to the cordes over having a tire they can afford new?)[/QUOTE] You've never seen the stuff you get from Berget than. They are in great shape, sometimes just scrubbed in and are a heck of a deal.[QUOTE=REX8;17105046]
You missed the entire point:
I'm merely saying that given the demand for used/cheap R's, with the large increase in HPDE drivers leads me to believe that a lower priced, lower performing R would sell...[/QUOTE] As I said before these are the High Perf street tires. The cost gap isn't that big in the scheme of HPDEs. 2-300 bucks seems like a lot but in the scheme of tracking a car it is still relatively minor.[QUOTE=REX8;17105046]
I'm sorry, it doesn't take a Harvard degree to know that, if a once small market full of die hard guys grows exponentially, and now includes many many more mid-level, "for fun" guys, the market for the products fitting their needs/wants should change. It hasn't in 10 years.[/QUOTE] Every single one fo the die hard guys I've met always wants the best tire out there and are going to be willing to spend a few extra bucks on tires for that. [QUOTE=REX8;17105046]
Just for sheetz and giggles, Id be very interested to see how a tire like that would do in light of the vast increase in popularity. [/QUOTE]
I'm not attacking you in this, I'm just saying that the niche you speak of is very small and I would doubt it would be even remotely profitable. An entry level R-compound wouldn't be 75 bucks it would probably be closer to 125 for 225/50-16. For 140 more for a set you can get the V710's and they are right up there with the best. Or if money is tight for 150 less you can get some MX's that aren't too bad but you saved 150 bucks and can buy some brake pads too. Tires are some of the best return on investment for lap improvment and many people will pay for that.
| cooleyjb | 02-19-2007 03:33 PM |
[QUOTE=REX8;17105457]Thanks for the offer, but I'm good. :)
Think this thread came off wrong. This is not about what I want or need,[B] I can swing the extra $$$ for rubber if need be[/B]. [/QUOTE] This is why the niche probably isn't that big or event here for the entry level R-compound.[QUOTE=REX8;17105046]
I just was thinking in terms of the current market and I feel its really lacking in light of the changes the sport has seen. [/QUOTE]
If anything, over the last 15 years of motorsports I've seen a lot more money being thrown at cars and the 'grassroots' people you talk about don't really exist anymore in any great numbers.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see some cheaper but still quality tires out there but the niche probably doesn't exist because "For a few dollars more....."
Think this thread came off wrong. This is not about what I want or need,[B] I can swing the extra $$$ for rubber if need be[/B]. [/QUOTE] This is why the niche probably isn't that big or event here for the entry level R-compound.[QUOTE=REX8;17105046]
I just was thinking in terms of the current market and I feel its really lacking in light of the changes the sport has seen. [/QUOTE]
If anything, over the last 15 years of motorsports I've seen a lot more money being thrown at cars and the 'grassroots' people you talk about don't really exist anymore in any great numbers.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see some cheaper but still quality tires out there but the niche probably doesn't exist because "For a few dollars more....."
| HoRo1 | 02-19-2007 05:52 PM |
[QUOTE=REX8;17097770]...Why is it that Kumho can make an MX, an outstanding tire in the heat, but fails to come out with a similarly priced version resembling more of a slick...[/QUOTE]
Why not use a SHAVED street tire? When I used to race my WRX, I often used shaved street tires (Kumho MX, to be precise). They work quite well, but ultimately they can't compete with an R compound. If you shop around, you might find some decent R compounds in a 17" for <$150. I've got 3 Victoracers sitting in my garage that have just 10 laps at Willow Springs on them.
Why not use a SHAVED street tire? When I used to race my WRX, I often used shaved street tires (Kumho MX, to be precise). They work quite well, but ultimately they can't compete with an R compound. If you shop around, you might find some decent R compounds in a 17" for <$150. I've got 3 Victoracers sitting in my garage that have just 10 laps at Willow Springs on them.
| adhowe70 | 02-20-2007 12:31 AM |
[QUOTE=REX8;17102639]They charge so much because the numbers they sell them in are low.[/QUOTE]
Exactly. Its called economy of scale. It costs less money per unit to make large numbers of an item - even if the two items have identical incremental costs.
Exactly. Its called economy of scale. It costs less money per unit to make large numbers of an item - even if the two items have identical incremental costs.
| Jack | 02-20-2007 11:26 PM |
Hoosier has sales during the winter on leftover tires. I bought my R3SO5's for my Honda for $116 each shipped instead of $165 plus shipping each.
Ecsta V700's are a decent, cheap track tire. I use them as rains or when the track is cold.
jack
Ecsta V700's are a decent, cheap track tire. I use them as rains or when the track is cold.
jack
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