| Penguinking | 01-14-2004 11:59 AM |
which is worse: autox or road racing
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was engaged in a discussion on the rennlist forum, and for the longest time i had strongly believed that autox was the least "stressful" type of motorsports you could participate in. to me, hotlapping places alot more stress on the motor and tranny - there are alot more upshifts and downshifts on a typical 2.5mile track than there are on an autox course, not to mention that you will spend upwards of 4hrs a weekend total track time, versus 8-9minutes at an autox event.
i was wondering if i could get your input
heres the link to their discussion [url]http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=108199[/url]
Robert
i was wondering if i could get your input
heres the link to their discussion [url]http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=108199[/url]
Robert
| Opie | 01-14-2004 12:29 PM |
I think sitting in stop & go rush hour traffic is more stressful than either auto-x or road-racing. :D
I would have to think that road racing is more stressful on a car than auto-x...higher lateral g loads an components, higher temps an brakes for longer periods of time, higher RPM's for longer durations...more shifts....
I would have to think that road racing is more stressful on a car than auto-x...higher lateral g loads an components, higher temps an brakes for longer periods of time, higher RPM's for longer durations...more shifts....
| KC | 01-14-2004 12:35 PM |
Not gonna be a member there to respond. :)
It seems some P cars have oil starvation problems. Sucks to be them.
But driving an auto-x is no different than some brisk city driving, or quick lane changes. I love when people complain about the jerkiness of auto-x... that reads to me: "I don't know how to be smooth." :)
Also, we all know the difference between PCA auto-x and SCCA auto-x. ;) Lower speeds in SCCA. >100 at an auto-x scares me.
--kC
It seems some P cars have oil starvation problems. Sucks to be them.
But driving an auto-x is no different than some brisk city driving, or quick lane changes. I love when people complain about the jerkiness of auto-x... that reads to me: "I don't know how to be smooth." :)
Also, we all know the difference between PCA auto-x and SCCA auto-x. ;) Lower speeds in SCCA. >100 at an auto-x scares me.
--kC
| ElGranBan� | 01-14-2004 12:43 PM |
Here's my super-simple response;
[b]ALL motorsports will accelerate your service shedule to some degree. [/b]
After AutoXing for 2 and a half years I've worn out my jack-up plate and put some wear on my wheel studs from all the tire changing. I also kinda wore out my 1st gear syncro after experimenting down shifting into 1st around those really tight 'Miata hairpins' (diagnosis, not worth it). And of course I've put all kinds wear on my dedicated AutoX tires (Falkin Azenas), but thats what they're for. ;)
Although I have not gone day tracking, I would imagine that it wears a bit different on the car. Where AutoXing is a lot of hard cornering at low speeds, track days are at higher speeds and heavier breaking loads, so I'm guessing that means more wear the brakes as well the tires.
If you really want to enjoy your car beyond the limits of prudent street driving, any wear on your car should be worth the experience of participating in AutoXing or RallyXing, or track days.
[b]ALL motorsports will accelerate your service shedule to some degree. [/b]
After AutoXing for 2 and a half years I've worn out my jack-up plate and put some wear on my wheel studs from all the tire changing. I also kinda wore out my 1st gear syncro after experimenting down shifting into 1st around those really tight 'Miata hairpins' (diagnosis, not worth it). And of course I've put all kinds wear on my dedicated AutoX tires (Falkin Azenas), but thats what they're for. ;)
Although I have not gone day tracking, I would imagine that it wears a bit different on the car. Where AutoXing is a lot of hard cornering at low speeds, track days are at higher speeds and heavier breaking loads, so I'm guessing that means more wear the brakes as well the tires.
If you really want to enjoy your car beyond the limits of prudent street driving, any wear on your car should be worth the experience of participating in AutoXing or RallyXing, or track days.
| KoneKiller | 01-14-2004 01:34 PM |
Rob... the biggest exception to this would be the aggressive launches that are typical of autocross.
I also agree that the G forces associated with autocross MIGHT be higher and more sustained than a roadcourse. I'm looking at plots from my G-cube to try to estimate the time over 0.8 G. It looks like I am over 0.8 G later and 0.5 G transverse for about 45 seconds out of a 60 second run. That's a lot!!
Autocross might be harder on a car!
I also agree that the G forces associated with autocross MIGHT be higher and more sustained than a roadcourse. I'm looking at plots from my G-cube to try to estimate the time over 0.8 G. It looks like I am over 0.8 G later and 0.5 G transverse for about 45 seconds out of a 60 second run. That's a lot!!
Autocross might be harder on a car!
| TyrannoSullyRex | 01-14-2004 01:42 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KoneKiller[/i]
[B] Rob... the biggest exception to this would be the aggressive launches that are typical of autocross.
I also agree that the G forces associated with autocross MIGHT be higher and more sustained than a roadcourse. I'm looking at plots from my G-cube to try to estimate the time over 0.8 G. It looks like I am over 0.8 G later and 0.5 G transverse for about 45 seconds out of a 60 second run. That's a lot!!
Autocross might be harder on a car! [/B][/QUOTE]
But that's for only 3-4 laps (autox), I imagine there are similar stresses (G-wise) over the course of a single lap on a road course, and you do MANY of those during a track day.
[B] Rob... the biggest exception to this would be the aggressive launches that are typical of autocross.
I also agree that the G forces associated with autocross MIGHT be higher and more sustained than a roadcourse. I'm looking at plots from my G-cube to try to estimate the time over 0.8 G. It looks like I am over 0.8 G later and 0.5 G transverse for about 45 seconds out of a 60 second run. That's a lot!!
Autocross might be harder on a car! [/B][/QUOTE]
But that's for only 3-4 laps (autox), I imagine there are similar stresses (G-wise) over the course of a single lap on a road course, and you do MANY of those during a track day.
| dwx | 01-14-2004 01:51 PM |
I hate Subaru wheel bearings, that's all I have to say. :)
| TheMirror | 01-14-2004 01:53 PM |
Autocrossing is probably more stressful to drivetrain, with heavy throttle inputs in low gears being the norm. Road course work will see higher thermal loads on engine and trans, as well as brakes.
| KC | 01-14-2004 01:54 PM |
One way to look at it is: Does 5 minutes of auto-x time put more wear and tear on your car than a typical 1.5 hrs on a road course?
I wouldn't think so. How much time on a track are you WOT vs Auto-x?
Suspension, wheels, brakes, tires.. those are all wear items, made to be replaced after fatigue. Trannies and engines are not.
--kC
I wouldn't think so. How much time on a track are you WOT vs Auto-x?
Suspension, wheels, brakes, tires.. those are all wear items, made to be replaced after fatigue. Trannies and engines are not.
--kC
| KC | 01-14-2004 01:55 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by dwx[/i]
[B] I hate Subaru wheel bearings, that's all I have to say. :) [/B][/QUOTE]
There are more cases of wheel bearing failures on track cars than on auto-x cars. :)
--kC
[B] I hate Subaru wheel bearings, that's all I have to say. :) [/B][/QUOTE]
There are more cases of wheel bearing failures on track cars than on auto-x cars. :)
--kC
| GQ | 01-14-2004 03:45 PM |
Another factor would be driver ability, but I would tend to think that HPDE'ing/Tracking would take its toll on a car more so than in AX'ing.
Taking a car out on track for three/four, 20 minute sessions in a day, involving 100+ mph, many shifts, high lateral g's through lengthy turns, and rapid deceleration from 100+mph would be the reasons. I have participated in both and I am not discrediting AX, just stating the facts.
Rob
As far as personal stress in a car goes, driving anywhere around DC is more stressful than AX, or HPDE.
Taking a car out on track for three/four, 20 minute sessions in a day, involving 100+ mph, many shifts, high lateral g's through lengthy turns, and rapid deceleration from 100+mph would be the reasons. I have participated in both and I am not discrediting AX, just stating the facts.
Rob
As far as personal stress in a car goes, driving anywhere around DC is more stressful than AX, or HPDE.
| HoRo1 | 01-14-2004 06:48 PM |
Which is worse? No question about it, road racing.
| Penguinking | 01-14-2004 08:26 PM |
can someone plz read the thread i linked and then comment on this topic?
| adhowe70 | 01-14-2004 09:15 PM |
The argument about autocross vs. track for wear depends on which components you're talking about.
In my opinion, track time is harder on the car because of time at RPM's. It is not uncommon to hold the revs near redline for an extended period of time on the track, such as cruising down a straight. Autocrossing has many accel / decel cycles that limit engine time at high RPM's. Track time will also be harder on brakes because of the longer braking zones.
Autocrossing will be more "shocking" to components. I'd expect, mile for mile, more transmission, differential and half-shaft failures autocrossing than on the track. Same thing with suspension components because of the harsh transitions that autocross will subject the components to.
Having said that, you'll drive 3 miles of competition at a normal autocross and I put in about 75 miles at the last track day. That would mean 25 autocrosses would be equivalent mileage to the track day. So do you compare mile for mile or event to event?
Andy H.
In my opinion, track time is harder on the car because of time at RPM's. It is not uncommon to hold the revs near redline for an extended period of time on the track, such as cruising down a straight. Autocrossing has many accel / decel cycles that limit engine time at high RPM's. Track time will also be harder on brakes because of the longer braking zones.
Autocrossing will be more "shocking" to components. I'd expect, mile for mile, more transmission, differential and half-shaft failures autocrossing than on the track. Same thing with suspension components because of the harsh transitions that autocross will subject the components to.
Having said that, you'll drive 3 miles of competition at a normal autocross and I put in about 75 miles at the last track day. That would mean 25 autocrosses would be equivalent mileage to the track day. So do you compare mile for mile or event to event?
Andy H.
| mav1c | 01-14-2004 09:29 PM |
I have done both (with more track time), and I'd have to say that track time is definitely a lot harder on the car than Auto-X. Sure, you have the hard Launch, but that's nothing compared to the beating a tranny takes running close to redline, at 100+ MPH, for 20 minutes at a time. The heat generated is SO much more than you'd ever get at an Auto-x. And that goes for every componenet on the car. Sure the hard transitions at an Auto-X put stress on the bushings, but that's for 3-5 runs, in very quick turns. Think how much more strees you have on a 10 turn road course for 50 laps in a day. Places like VIR where you're going through the Esses at 100+ MPH puts a lot more load on the suspension/bushings than an Auto-X. Also the engine takes much more of a beating, as do the brakes, tires, diffs, CV joints, etc. The biggest thing is the sustained heat from full throttle, hard cornering loads, and multiple shifts you have running a track day, vs the few minutes you run at an Auto-X. I'm not discrediting Auto-X at all. I love doing it too. Just don't think it wears in the car near as much as track time.
| WRXedUSA | 01-14-2004 09:49 PM |
Road racing.
Nothing like asking for boiled brake fluid. (have had it happen, ad seen it happen on other production cars)
Auto-X is what I would too equate to hard city driving.
Nothing like asking for boiled brake fluid. (have had it happen, ad seen it happen on other production cars)
Auto-X is what I would too equate to hard city driving.
| TyrannoSullyRex | 01-14-2004 10:01 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Penguinking[/i]
[B] can someone plz read the thread i linked and then comment on this topic? [/B][/QUOTE]
Read before making comments?? Where do you think you are??
:D
[B] can someone plz read the thread i linked and then comment on this topic? [/B][/QUOTE]
Read before making comments?? Where do you think you are??
:D
| Penguinking | 01-14-2004 11:33 PM |
:furious:
:)
:)
| lo-buck | 01-14-2004 11:47 PM |
well as the topic states it road racing is alot harder than autox. in proper road racing, you can total a car, go through a set of brake pads, a set of tires and you put lots more milage on a car than autox. NOW, comparing autox to hpde is alittle closer becuase you dont use the car up as much as racing. is HPDE harder than autox? cant say. i have done both. autox is tough on tires, balljoints (we have bumpy lots) where as hpde is hard on brakes, clutch(till u learn to rev-match) & engines (lots more time at the upper rev range)
| Penguinking | 01-15-2004 12:18 AM |
i really meant HPDE, sorry if that threw people off or anything. but really, if youre driving 10/10 at the limit, then you're really working the tires n brakes and everything.
| adhowe70 | 01-15-2004 12:39 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by mav1c [/i]
[B]Places like VIR where you're going through the Esses at 100+ MPH puts a lot more load on the suspension/bushings than an Auto-X.[/B][/QUOTE]
I'll disagree with that statement. G's are g's, regardless of the speed. With R-compound tires, my G Stock 2.5RS will pull a little over 1.2g's at peak and will transition at over 5.0 g's per second. That transition rate is the equivalent of 1g left to 1g right in less than 0.4 seconds. I believe this is harder on the suspension and bushings than the slower transitions of the open track.
It is true that you'll make more transitions during a day at an HPDE than an autocross, but mile for mile autocross will be harder on suspension components. If you compare event to event, HPDE will likely be harder on the suspension than autocross.
Andy H.
[B]Places like VIR where you're going through the Esses at 100+ MPH puts a lot more load on the suspension/bushings than an Auto-X.[/B][/QUOTE]
I'll disagree with that statement. G's are g's, regardless of the speed. With R-compound tires, my G Stock 2.5RS will pull a little over 1.2g's at peak and will transition at over 5.0 g's per second. That transition rate is the equivalent of 1g left to 1g right in less than 0.4 seconds. I believe this is harder on the suspension and bushings than the slower transitions of the open track.
It is true that you'll make more transitions during a day at an HPDE than an autocross, but mile for mile autocross will be harder on suspension components. If you compare event to event, HPDE will likely be harder on the suspension than autocross.
Andy H.
| TheMirror | 01-15-2004 12:55 AM |
I read the rennlist thread.
Ok, I guess we're looking for a very GENERAL answer here, and we all know how smart it is to GENERALIZE, but in GENERAL, a Drivers Event with lots of track time will GENERALLY put more wear on a car. Full throttle, extended time at high G forces, high tire wear, lots of shifts, heavy braking, all significant wear factors.
However when you autocross, you're making nothing but heavy inputs for anywhere from 45 sec. to 2 min, hammering your tire shoulders, accelerating full throttle in low gears on a cold transmission, making high angle steering inputs (great for CV joints), and never running the car at high enough speeds to get the cooling system stabilized. Tons of heat buildup in the engine for 90sec, then cooling back down for an extended period.
That all sounds like wear to me too. I don't know about everyone else, but if I drove like that on the street, my license would be long gone.
-Mirror
Ok, I guess we're looking for a very GENERAL answer here, and we all know how smart it is to GENERALIZE, but in GENERAL, a Drivers Event with lots of track time will GENERALLY put more wear on a car. Full throttle, extended time at high G forces, high tire wear, lots of shifts, heavy braking, all significant wear factors.
However when you autocross, you're making nothing but heavy inputs for anywhere from 45 sec. to 2 min, hammering your tire shoulders, accelerating full throttle in low gears on a cold transmission, making high angle steering inputs (great for CV joints), and never running the car at high enough speeds to get the cooling system stabilized. Tons of heat buildup in the engine for 90sec, then cooling back down for an extended period.
That all sounds like wear to me too. I don't know about everyone else, but if I drove like that on the street, my license would be long gone.
-Mirror
| lo-buck | 01-15-2004 01:24 AM |
doesnt matter. once you start getting serious into either or, the whole car is a wear item:lol:
| TheMirror | 01-15-2004 01:38 AM |
Exactly. :)
| mav1c | 01-15-2004 08:26 AM |
[QUOTE]I'll disagree with that statement. G's are g's, regardless of the speed.[/QUOTE]
I guess I should have made my point a little more clear. The biggest reason is that you are holding the g's a LOT longer on a road course than an auto-X. And this is not constant. As you go through the turn you will be making small corrections, hitting small bumps, etc.
I won't even try to get into all the technical stuff, because I don't have a degree in Physics or Engineering. ;)
Just an opinion, but from my experience doing both, I feel road course driving (HPDE) is harder on the car than an Auto-X.
I guess I should have made my point a little more clear. The biggest reason is that you are holding the g's a LOT longer on a road course than an auto-X. And this is not constant. As you go through the turn you will be making small corrections, hitting small bumps, etc.
I won't even try to get into all the technical stuff, because I don't have a degree in Physics or Engineering. ;)
Just an opinion, but from my experience doing both, I feel road course driving (HPDE) is harder on the car than an Auto-X.
| 10th Warrior | 01-15-2004 10:53 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC [/i]
[B]There are more cases of wheel bearing failures on track cars than on auto-x cars. :)
--kC [/B][/QUOTE]
i just replaced #9 and my car has never been on a track ;)
anyway, driving hard on a gravel road is harder on the car then either HPDE or auto-x :D
[B]There are more cases of wheel bearing failures on track cars than on auto-x cars. :)
--kC [/B][/QUOTE]
i just replaced #9 and my car has never been on a track ;)
anyway, driving hard on a gravel road is harder on the car then either HPDE or auto-x :D
| Paisan | 01-15-2004 11:25 AM |
Having done both, depending on the car. I'd say auto-x is harder on certain components such as tires, bearing etc. Road race is harder on brake fluid, coolant, and your mind/body.
-mike
-mike
| GarySheehan | 01-15-2004 04:47 PM |
How can you say that autocross is harder on tires and bearings?
On Hoosiers we were seeing over 1.6 G's of cornering force on a 3,300 pound car. Before we upgraded brakes we were consistently getting 2 hours of front bearing life.
Also, fast transitions are not hard on a suspension. You are still in what's considered slow piston velocity range. High speed bumps and curbing are high piston velocity and that's what really takes the life out of a shock.
Considering that I go through about 4 sets of tie rod ends per season and nearly set of lower ball joints every race, that's a lot of wear.
Regarding bushings, who here has had one fail from autocross or track racing? Failure from brittleness due to aging, yes. Failure from g-force is pretty rare.
The only thing that may be harder on the car in autocross is the launch. But hey, in USTCC we have standing starts :)
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
On Hoosiers we were seeing over 1.6 G's of cornering force on a 3,300 pound car. Before we upgraded brakes we were consistently getting 2 hours of front bearing life.
Also, fast transitions are not hard on a suspension. You are still in what's considered slow piston velocity range. High speed bumps and curbing are high piston velocity and that's what really takes the life out of a shock.
Considering that I go through about 4 sets of tie rod ends per season and nearly set of lower ball joints every race, that's a lot of wear.
Regarding bushings, who here has had one fail from autocross or track racing? Failure from brittleness due to aging, yes. Failure from g-force is pretty rare.
The only thing that may be harder on the car in autocross is the launch. But hey, in USTCC we have standing starts :)
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| Kostamojen | 01-15-2004 09:21 PM |
Tires have far shorter life on the track (from personal experience)
| Penguinking | 01-15-2004 09:26 PM |
well thats kindof a weird comparison - compare autox to ttrack mile to mile and i bet autox wears tires more per mile.
also, there are different tire compunds for autox and track so the wear characteristics are different.
any heavy autoxers out there that would ike to comment on the wear and tear of their cars after a full season of racing?
also, there are different tire compunds for autox and track so the wear characteristics are different.
any heavy autoxers out there that would ike to comment on the wear and tear of their cars after a full season of racing?
| ChrisW | 01-15-2004 10:39 PM |
I am used to a set of Kumo vicoracers (R-Compound tires) last a full season of regional events (+16 events in a season) If you do national tours or pro-solos, you can expect to use another set.
My stock brake pads lasted about 8/10ths of a season, I did a full season with a co-driver using Axis metel masters.
With a co-driver, I used 60% tire wear on 1 set of Falkin azenis tires for the season.
My stock brake pads lasted about 8/10ths of a season, I did a full season with a co-driver using Axis metel masters.
With a co-driver, I used 60% tire wear on 1 set of Falkin azenis tires for the season.
| sirfrankwilliams | 01-15-2004 11:15 PM |
I'm going on proly 30-some events wiith my Azenis and I've still got 2/32nds left.
| GarySheehan | 01-15-2004 11:35 PM |
I go through a set of Hoosiers in a 45 minute race.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| adhowe70 | 01-16-2004 12:58 AM |
Kumhos... about 70 autocross miles with heavy rotating and flipping to maximize tire life on my Subaru
Hoosiers (A3S03)... about 20 autocross miles (or so I hear) on a Focus
We used 3 sets of Kumhos last season on my GS 2.5RS. We ran both Atwater events, Wendover, Bremerton and Topeka as well as a moderate local season. We were dual driving the car, so that adds some cost.
Brake pads... not really a wear item for autocross. 2 seasons on a set of front carbon metallic pads with half the pad left. 3 seasons (and 57k miles!) on the OEM rears and their still going strong. I wear the brakes a lot harder on the track than autocrossing.
Andy H.
Hoosiers (A3S03)... about 20 autocross miles (or so I hear) on a Focus
We used 3 sets of Kumhos last season on my GS 2.5RS. We ran both Atwater events, Wendover, Bremerton and Topeka as well as a moderate local season. We were dual driving the car, so that adds some cost.
Brake pads... not really a wear item for autocross. 2 seasons on a set of front carbon metallic pads with half the pad left. 3 seasons (and 57k miles!) on the OEM rears and their still going strong. I wear the brakes a lot harder on the track than autocrossing.
Andy H.
| Paisan | 01-16-2004 03:22 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by GarySheehan [/i]
[B]How can you say that autocross is harder on tires and bearings?
[/B][/QUOTE]
Sorry I should have qualified. HPDE v. Auto-x. If you are truely Road Racing, yes the abuse you will put on the tires and bearings is greater in road race v. autox.
But I know that I go through far more tires in a year of auto-x than a year of HPDE (and I did 15 HPDEs last year)
-mike
[B]How can you say that autocross is harder on tires and bearings?
[/B][/QUOTE]
Sorry I should have qualified. HPDE v. Auto-x. If you are truely Road Racing, yes the abuse you will put on the tires and bearings is greater in road race v. autox.
But I know that I go through far more tires in a year of auto-x than a year of HPDE (and I did 15 HPDEs last year)
-mike
| Penguinking | 01-16-2004 10:20 AM |
15 hpde's ? you mean 15 track days or 15 events?
either way thats alot of track time - i'd go through about 1 set of street tires if i were tracking the car.
what tires were you using for HPDE/autox?
either way thats alot of track time - i'd go through about 1 set of street tires if i were tracking the car.
what tires were you using for HPDE/autox?
| TheMirror | 01-16-2004 10:42 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by GarySheehan [/i]
[B]I go through a set of Hoosiers in a 45 minute race.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url] [/B][/QUOTE]
Yeah, but you drive really really fast Gary! :D :banana:
Good luck this next season, we'll all be pullin' for ya!
[B]I go through a set of Hoosiers in a 45 minute race.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url] [/B][/QUOTE]
Yeah, but you drive really really fast Gary! :D :banana:
Good luck this next season, we'll all be pullin' for ya!
| AZP Installs | 01-18-2004 06:17 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Penguinking [/i]
[B]15 hpde's ? you mean 15 track days or 15 events?
either way thats alot of track time - i'd go through about 1 set of street tires if i were tracking the car.
what tires were you using for HPDE/autox? [/B][/QUOTE]
15 HPDE Days. Hope to do at least 30 this year. :)
Running Toyo Proxie RA1s for Track
Running Kumho V700 Victorracers for Autox
Next year I'll probably be doing more track than auto-x will likely just run the RA1s for both events.
-mike
[B]15 hpde's ? you mean 15 track days or 15 events?
either way thats alot of track time - i'd go through about 1 set of street tires if i were tracking the car.
what tires were you using for HPDE/autox? [/B][/QUOTE]
15 HPDE Days. Hope to do at least 30 this year. :)
Running Toyo Proxie RA1s for Track
Running Kumho V700 Victorracers for Autox
Next year I'll probably be doing more track than auto-x will likely just run the RA1s for both events.
-mike
| crashandburn | 01-19-2004 05:54 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by GQ [/i]
[B]As far as personal stress in a car goes, driving anywhere around DC is more stressful than AX, or HPDE. [/B][/QUOTE]
There is no argument about that. I was at Pax River for three years, and it is soooo true.
[B]As far as personal stress in a car goes, driving anywhere around DC is more stressful than AX, or HPDE. [/B][/QUOTE]
There is no argument about that. I was at Pax River for three years, and it is soooo true.
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