| Jeff_DML | 03-30-2005 04:53 PM |
wrx brakes for track event(HPDE)
�
�
yeah I know this topic has beaten to death and I have been searching all the various threads but still havent found a good solution for me. Information overload I guess. Hopefully someone can help me out.
drive: 04 wrx with cobb stage 2 CA map, ~280hp according to cobb, stock brakes. OZ superleggeras 17" with 225/45 kumho mx soon to be toyo t1s.
I tracked my wrx for the first time(tracked other cars though) recently and got the dreaded pad deposits(i.e. warped brakes) during the middle of the first day of a 2 event at buttonwillow with the BMWCCA group. Brakes where oem rotors with carbontech pather plus pads, higher temp fluid. I was running group C but think I will be moving to B soon.
Going to Las vegas Motor Speedway in May so want to fix my brakes. Plan to track at least a few days a year
What are my options?
Minimum :
- I plan to buy new front rotors, stoptech OEM sized slotted rotors.
- a silver wrx wagon owner(sorry forgot your name if you are here) was running these in group A (fastest group in bmwcca hpde) with success. He was using axiss ultimate pads too. I think my braking style might be some of the difference.
Better:
1. Stoptech front BBK
-pros, assume if I get these then I dont need to worry about brake anymore, feel will be a lot better too.
-cons, dont fit under my wheels so I would need to sell them and get new ones plus a bit more money then I want to spend
2. 4-piston front brakes by subaru or racing brake
-pros, help feel?
-cons, wont help with my heat problems since still oem size rotor right???
3. legacy gt upgrade( front and rear or front and h/2?)
-pros, bigger rotors should help with heat, feel supposed to be better, think they should fit under my rims
-cons, still might have heat problems?
Any other options I am missing? any recommendations?
TIA
Jeff
drive: 04 wrx with cobb stage 2 CA map, ~280hp according to cobb, stock brakes. OZ superleggeras 17" with 225/45 kumho mx soon to be toyo t1s.
I tracked my wrx for the first time(tracked other cars though) recently and got the dreaded pad deposits(i.e. warped brakes) during the middle of the first day of a 2 event at buttonwillow with the BMWCCA group. Brakes where oem rotors with carbontech pather plus pads, higher temp fluid. I was running group C but think I will be moving to B soon.
Going to Las vegas Motor Speedway in May so want to fix my brakes. Plan to track at least a few days a year
What are my options?
Minimum :
- I plan to buy new front rotors, stoptech OEM sized slotted rotors.
- a silver wrx wagon owner(sorry forgot your name if you are here) was running these in group A (fastest group in bmwcca hpde) with success. He was using axiss ultimate pads too. I think my braking style might be some of the difference.
Better:
1. Stoptech front BBK
-pros, assume if I get these then I dont need to worry about brake anymore, feel will be a lot better too.
-cons, dont fit under my wheels so I would need to sell them and get new ones plus a bit more money then I want to spend
2. 4-piston front brakes by subaru or racing brake
-pros, help feel?
-cons, wont help with my heat problems since still oem size rotor right???
3. legacy gt upgrade( front and rear or front and h/2?)
-pros, bigger rotors should help with heat, feel supposed to be better, think they should fit under my rims
-cons, still might have heat problems?
Any other options I am missing? any recommendations?
TIA
Jeff
| trhoppe | 03-30-2005 05:03 PM |
There are two things that you *need* to do to WRX brakes before you go on track
a) Good fluid
b) Good pads
I would recommend either the Carbotech Panther Plus or the Carbotech Panther XP9 compound and ATE Super Blue fluid. The P+ can be driven on the street and it will hold up well on street tires for driver eds, while the XP9 is a full track compound that should not be driven on the street. It will hold up no matter what you do to them on track.
For "bigger" brakes on the car, the Stoptech is a great upgrade, but you will still need to use track pads if you drive the car on track. You will have the same issues if you use street pads in the kit. The legacy kit has bigger calipers and rotors, but also, you will need to use a track pad.
-Tom
a) Good fluid
b) Good pads
I would recommend either the Carbotech Panther Plus or the Carbotech Panther XP9 compound and ATE Super Blue fluid. The P+ can be driven on the street and it will hold up well on street tires for driver eds, while the XP9 is a full track compound that should not be driven on the street. It will hold up no matter what you do to them on track.
For "bigger" brakes on the car, the Stoptech is a great upgrade, but you will still need to use track pads if you drive the car on track. You will have the same issues if you use street pads in the kit. The legacy kit has bigger calipers and rotors, but also, you will need to use a track pad.
-Tom
| Jeff_DML | 03-30-2005 06:34 PM |
sorry if my original post was not clear but I am already running carbontech pather plus plus higher temp fluid and got the pad deposits with them at buttonwillow.
Yeah I know about running the better pads but I was hoping I could get away with the stoptech and the axis ultimates since supposedly they run a lot cooler. :( guess not
Yeah I know about running the better pads but I was hoping I could get away with the stoptech and the axis ultimates since supposedly they run a lot cooler. :( guess not
| Phil Jr. | 03-30-2005 07:15 PM |
You are right that the Subaru 4-pots and Racing brakes use the stock rotor. So that of course wont help with heat.
For the front you could always look into some used STi brembos. OEM fit and relatively cheap for a brembo BBK. Large rotors that you know will hold up at the track, and lots of pad choices. Or you could just buy the calipers and get some nice 2 piece rotors, drop a good amount of unsprung weight and never worry about fade. Thats what I would do in your situation.
I would recommend either a H-6 rear or LGT rear. The LGT is the same diameter as the H-6 only the rotors are vented. The LGT rear upgrade also forces you to buy new calipers....and that quickly gets expensive for a simple OEM upgrade. However, from what I have read the $230 H-6 upgrade is more than enough for most modest street and track setups. Plus the larger diameter rotor will help shift some bias to the rear if you do decide to get a front BBK.
Hope this helps, I have never tracked my WRX...so its not personal experience I am speaking from, just what I have read...which is a lot ;)
For the front you could always look into some used STi brembos. OEM fit and relatively cheap for a brembo BBK. Large rotors that you know will hold up at the track, and lots of pad choices. Or you could just buy the calipers and get some nice 2 piece rotors, drop a good amount of unsprung weight and never worry about fade. Thats what I would do in your situation.
I would recommend either a H-6 rear or LGT rear. The LGT is the same diameter as the H-6 only the rotors are vented. The LGT rear upgrade also forces you to buy new calipers....and that quickly gets expensive for a simple OEM upgrade. However, from what I have read the $230 H-6 upgrade is more than enough for most modest street and track setups. Plus the larger diameter rotor will help shift some bias to the rear if you do decide to get a front BBK.
Hope this helps, I have never tracked my WRX...so its not personal experience I am speaking from, just what I have read...which is a lot ;)
| bemani | 03-30-2005 07:26 PM |
[QUOTE=Phil Jr.]
For the front you could always look into some used STi brembos. OEM fit and relatively cheap for a brembo BBK. Large rotors that you know will hold up at the track, and lots of pad choices. Or you could just buy the calipers and get some nice 2 piece rotors, drop a good amount of unsprung weight and never worry about fade. Thats what I would do in your situation.
[/QUOTE]
Brembos won't clear the OZ SLs.
For the front you could always look into some used STi brembos. OEM fit and relatively cheap for a brembo BBK. Large rotors that you know will hold up at the track, and lots of pad choices. Or you could just buy the calipers and get some nice 2 piece rotors, drop a good amount of unsprung weight and never worry about fade. Thats what I would do in your situation.
[/QUOTE]
Brembos won't clear the OZ SLs.
| angryfist | 03-30-2005 07:44 PM |
i did the same thing with the same setup. i now run stoptechs with carbotech xp8's for track. the oz's will fit over the stoptechs with a 2-3mm spacer. only like $20 so you dont have to get new wheels. i've tried and it fit fine with spacers. we actually ran them at scca nationals. but anyways... yeah axis ultimates definitly wont work for track.
| xjohnx | 03-30-2005 07:48 PM |
did you bed the pads in properly?
| Jeff_DML | 03-30-2005 08:00 PM |
[QUOTE=xjohnx]did you bed the pads in properly?[/QUOTE]
I followed the instructions, something like 60->40 couple times then 60-0 a few times, but it was my first time so I might of done it wrong, they did start smoking. But they did held up for the first half of the day of track, actually most of the day. Second day was pretty bad, vibrating streering wheel and all.
I followed the instructions, something like 60->40 couple times then 60-0 a few times, but it was my first time so I might of done it wrong, they did start smoking. But they did held up for the first half of the day of track, actually most of the day. Second day was pretty bad, vibrating streering wheel and all.
| Jeff_DML | 03-30-2005 08:01 PM |
[QUOTE=angryfist]i did the same thing with the same setup. i now run stoptechs with carbotech xp8's for track. the oz's will fit over the stoptechs with a 2-3mm spacer. only like $20 so you dont have to get new wheels. i've tried and it fit fine with spacers. we actually ran them at scca nationals. but anyways... yeah axis ultimates definitly wont work for track.[/QUOTE]
hmm, that is hopeful. I used the pdf cutout from stoptech and they barely did not fit so I thought spaces would work. Where did you get the spacers from? any cons of using them?
TIA
Jeff
~~~~~
thanks for the suggestions so far
hmm, that is hopeful. I used the pdf cutout from stoptech and they barely did not fit so I thought spaces would work. Where did you get the spacers from? any cons of using them?
TIA
Jeff
~~~~~
thanks for the suggestions so far
| moremaga | 03-30-2005 09:38 PM |
H&R makes some pretty good spacers:
[url]http://www.hrsprings.com/site/frames/frameproducts.html[/url]
[url]http://www.hrsprings.com/site/frames/frameproducts.html[/url]
| angryfist | 03-31-2005 10:20 AM |
um i think the spacers i used were jsut from the local tire shop. dont get anythign too thick or you wont have enough stud fro your lugs. you only need 2-3mm.
i have talked to carbotech about using the p+ for track and they dont recommend it for any tracks with lots of heavy braking. they recommend the xp8. p+ are probably fine for a lighter car but not our 2900+lb beasts.
i have talked to carbotech about using the p+ for track and they dont recommend it for any tracks with lots of heavy braking. they recommend the xp8. p+ are probably fine for a lighter car but not our 2900+lb beasts.
| WimpWgn | 03-31-2005 10:28 AM |
Would like to hear about this. I too track about once a month. But I'm in the C group and my car is still a working progress.
| ITWRX4ME | 03-31-2005 02:57 PM |
I've had good luck with Panther Plus pads and slotted OEM rotors. No 'warpage'. I did see some surface cracks in the rotors but that's to be expected when you heat them cherry red.
| TubeDriver | 03-31-2005 04:29 PM |
I would start with the H6 rear and get a set of Carbotech "Blank" front rotors. Panther Plus should be fine, run a decent fluid like Motul 600. Bed the brakes in properly. The H6 upgrade results in better balance and about 8 rear bias increases (which corrospondingly reduces the workload og your front brakes by aboy 8% too).
If that does not work, than you could get a BBK like Stoptech. That was my plan and at this point I don't think I need the BBK.
If that does not work, than you could get a BBK like Stoptech. That was my plan and at this point I don't think I need the BBK.
| Jaxx | 03-31-2005 04:55 PM |
lgt fronts are an option bet there are hardly any pads aviaiable for them at the moment
i don't see the reason to buy the stoptec replacemnt rotors they will do the same thing that the stockers do (over heat)
the next proublem you are going to have is that the front wheel berrings are going to go bad
if you continue to do HPDE you need some thing like the stoptec bbk
i don't see the reason to buy the stoptec replacemnt rotors they will do the same thing that the stockers do (over heat)
the next proublem you are going to have is that the front wheel berrings are going to go bad
if you continue to do HPDE you need some thing like the stoptec bbk
| Jeff_DML | 03-31-2005 04:56 PM |
[QUOTE=TubeDriver]I would start with the H6 rear and get a set of Carbotech "Blank" front rotors. Panther Plus should be fine, run a decent fluid like Motul 600. Bed the brakes in properly. The H6 upgrade results in better balance and about 8 rear bias increases (which corrospondingly reduces the workload og your front brakes by aboy 8% too).
If that does not work, than you could get a BBK like Stoptech. That was my plan and at this point I don't think I need the BBK.[/QUOTE]
I agree, I think the BBK might be overkill to but I am currently tempted so I dont have to worrry about brakes anymore. still flip flopping on what to do.
~~~~
thanks for the responses...
If that does not work, than you could get a BBK like Stoptech. That was my plan and at this point I don't think I need the BBK.[/QUOTE]
I agree, I think the BBK might be overkill to but I am currently tempted so I dont have to worrry about brakes anymore. still flip flopping on what to do.
~~~~
thanks for the responses...
| Chigliakus | 03-31-2005 05:20 PM |
[QUOTE=Jaxx]
the next proublem you are going to have is that the front wheel berrings are going to go bad
[/QUOTE]
I've seen other people say this, and also speculate that the wheel bearings are the reason the '05 STi switched to the larger hub. Is this just inevitable when you participate in HPDE with a wrx and what causes it?
the next proublem you are going to have is that the front wheel berrings are going to go bad
[/QUOTE]
I've seen other people say this, and also speculate that the wheel bearings are the reason the '05 STi switched to the larger hub. Is this just inevitable when you participate in HPDE with a wrx and what causes it?
| Jeff_DML | 03-31-2005 06:28 PM |
[QUOTE=Chigliakus]I've seen other people say this, and also speculate that the wheel bearings are the reason the '05 STi switched to the larger hub. Is this just inevitable when you participate in HPDE with a wrx and what causes it?[/QUOTE]
gary is going a bit faster then us :p but his comments still might be revelant
~~~~~~~~~~
Regardless of my relationship with StopTech, the problems we had using stock brakes prior to using a big brake kit are very well documented. Just search this site. Yes, you can get stock calipers and stock rotors to perform well for a single 40 minute race by using pads with a very high temp range, using fluid with a very high temp range and running ducting with forced air into the heart of the rotor. The penalty for doing this is significantly more expensive than purchasing a big brake kit. After a race weekend (2 hours of track time), expect to throw away the front pads, front bearings, front bearing seals, front brake caliper dust shields and perhaps the front hubs. After two race weekends add the front hubs for sure, as well as the steering tie rods, lower ball joints and front rotors. This is simply because the stock brakes cannot dissipate the heat fast enough and cook everything in their immediate vicinity. We were in need of a big brake kit and we began a relationship with a company that provided the best system for our application.
Regarding my relationship with StopTech, of course anything I say about them can be viewed by others as "paid advertising". So take this statement however you wish; I believe they are the best all around high performance braking system available for production vehicles. Components that do not perform to my requirements do not stay on the car, regardless of how they got there.
If my performance on the track doesn't back that up well enough, take a look at what brakes last year's World Challenge Touring Car champion was using. As a matter of fact, take a look around at where StopTech is in general in racing in the U.S. There's no room for almost good enough at the top of any form of pro racing. StopTech is there because their systems work extremely well.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=742135[/url]
gary is going a bit faster then us :p but his comments still might be revelant
~~~~~~~~~~
Regardless of my relationship with StopTech, the problems we had using stock brakes prior to using a big brake kit are very well documented. Just search this site. Yes, you can get stock calipers and stock rotors to perform well for a single 40 minute race by using pads with a very high temp range, using fluid with a very high temp range and running ducting with forced air into the heart of the rotor. The penalty for doing this is significantly more expensive than purchasing a big brake kit. After a race weekend (2 hours of track time), expect to throw away the front pads, front bearings, front bearing seals, front brake caliper dust shields and perhaps the front hubs. After two race weekends add the front hubs for sure, as well as the steering tie rods, lower ball joints and front rotors. This is simply because the stock brakes cannot dissipate the heat fast enough and cook everything in their immediate vicinity. We were in need of a big brake kit and we began a relationship with a company that provided the best system for our application.
Regarding my relationship with StopTech, of course anything I say about them can be viewed by others as "paid advertising". So take this statement however you wish; I believe they are the best all around high performance braking system available for production vehicles. Components that do not perform to my requirements do not stay on the car, regardless of how they got there.
If my performance on the track doesn't back that up well enough, take a look at what brakes last year's World Challenge Touring Car champion was using. As a matter of fact, take a look around at where StopTech is in general in racing in the U.S. There's no room for almost good enough at the top of any form of pro racing. StopTech is there because their systems work extremely well.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=742135[/url]
| Chigliakus | 03-31-2005 07:51 PM |
Wow that's a good thread there Jeff, thank you. I did some searching but didn't find that one; it answered my question. Prior to this I thought people were wearing out their wheel bearings due to the loads in high speed cornering but it's actually heat that's killing them! I've been through two HPDEs (road course) so far and on the 2nd one I managed to boil my brake fluid, probably due to my pads getting too thin. I just bought some performance pads and ss brake lines with dot4 fluid but now I'm not so sure I want to run many more track days without a bbk... :(
| elgorey | 04-03-2005 11:06 PM |
"big brake kits" are a waste of money, especially if you are just beginning track events.
You have good pads (although I would upgrade to Carbotech XP9)
You have good fluid
now you need to throw some air at the rotors to cool them. This is overlooked way too often, but take a look on any serious race car (other than SS of course) and they have brake ducting. Keep those brakes ventilated and they work 100% better.
You can take out the foglights and use that hole to route some high temp silicone hose to the eye of the rotor.
and #1 thing that will help your pad heat, is COMPRESSING YOUR BRAKING ZONE.
As you get more seat time, you will learn to do this, and you will build up less heat in the brakes. Braking less also helps :) helps you go faster too!
Slotted rotors are worthless bling. I spent several hundred $$ on a set of DBAs, which cracked in less than 2 weekends on track.
You have good pads (although I would upgrade to Carbotech XP9)
You have good fluid
now you need to throw some air at the rotors to cool them. This is overlooked way too often, but take a look on any serious race car (other than SS of course) and they have brake ducting. Keep those brakes ventilated and they work 100% better.
You can take out the foglights and use that hole to route some high temp silicone hose to the eye of the rotor.
and #1 thing that will help your pad heat, is COMPRESSING YOUR BRAKING ZONE.
As you get more seat time, you will learn to do this, and you will build up less heat in the brakes. Braking less also helps :) helps you go faster too!
Slotted rotors are worthless bling. I spent several hundred $$ on a set of DBAs, which cracked in less than 2 weekends on track.
| Turbo9000 | 04-03-2005 11:51 PM |
Does anyone have experience with the wilwood 6-piston kit for subaru? I think it goes for around 1345.00 for fronts. The calipers that come with the subaru kit are the narrow version of the superlites, so they should be able to fit quite a few wheels with no spacers.
Im really wanting to do more track days, but Im also daily driving it alot. the only thing I have heard about the wilwoods is they have no dust seals which makes them less streetable than stoptech's and others, However from the few people I have talked to that actually have the brakes and daily drive them, havent had any issues with the lack of dust seals and have gone over 20k miles without a rebuild.
Im really wanting to do more track days, but Im also daily driving it alot. the only thing I have heard about the wilwoods is they have no dust seals which makes them less streetable than stoptech's and others, However from the few people I have talked to that actually have the brakes and daily drive them, havent had any issues with the lack of dust seals and have gone over 20k miles without a rebuild.
| slickvic | 04-04-2005 12:00 AM |
[Quote=elgorey] "big brake kits" are a waste of money, especially if you are just beginning track events
You have good pads (although I would upgrade to Carbotech XP9)
You have good fluid
now you need to throw some air at the rotors to cool them. This is overlooked way too often, but take a look on any serious race car (other than SS of course) and they have brake ducting. Keep those brakes ventilated and they work 100% better.
You can take out the foglights and use that hole to route some high temp silicone hose to the eye of the rotor.
and #1 thing that will help your pad heat, is COMPRESSING YOUR BRAKING ZONE.
As you get more seat time, you will learn to do this, and you will build up less heat in the brakes. Braking less also helps helps you go faster too!
Slotted rotors are worthless bling. I spent several hundred $$ on a set of DBAs, which cracked in less than 2 weekends on track..[/Quote]
I'm definately going to have to disagree with you here. I would say a beginner is in the most need of a big brake kit (Just as you said they brake for longer, riding the brakes and building up even more heat and if they fade they are the least prepared to deal with it). Just as Gary said, you can get the stock brakes to work well for one track session but they will end up costing you more in the long run than a big brake kit will. The stock braking system can simply not dissipate the heat effectively enough. Also many people will not want to remove their fogs lights and put in the air ducting for ever track event.
You have good pads (although I would upgrade to Carbotech XP9)
You have good fluid
now you need to throw some air at the rotors to cool them. This is overlooked way too often, but take a look on any serious race car (other than SS of course) and they have brake ducting. Keep those brakes ventilated and they work 100% better.
You can take out the foglights and use that hole to route some high temp silicone hose to the eye of the rotor.
and #1 thing that will help your pad heat, is COMPRESSING YOUR BRAKING ZONE.
As you get more seat time, you will learn to do this, and you will build up less heat in the brakes. Braking less also helps helps you go faster too!
Slotted rotors are worthless bling. I spent several hundred $$ on a set of DBAs, which cracked in less than 2 weekends on track..[/Quote]
I'm definately going to have to disagree with you here. I would say a beginner is in the most need of a big brake kit (Just as you said they brake for longer, riding the brakes and building up even more heat and if they fade they are the least prepared to deal with it). Just as Gary said, you can get the stock brakes to work well for one track session but they will end up costing you more in the long run than a big brake kit will. The stock braking system can simply not dissipate the heat effectively enough. Also many people will not want to remove their fogs lights and put in the air ducting for ever track event.
| 4porsh | 04-04-2005 10:35 AM |
search under 4porsh Wilwood
| Jeff_DML | 04-04-2005 12:32 PM |
[QUOTE=elgorey]"big brake kits" are a waste of money, especially if you are just beginning track events.
You have good pads (although I would upgrade to Carbotech XP9)
You have good fluid
now you need to throw some air at the rotors to cool them. This is overlooked way too often, but take a look on any serious race car (other than SS of course) and they have brake ducting. Keep those brakes ventilated and they work 100% better.
You can take out the foglights and use that hole to route some high temp silicone hose to the eye of the rotor.
and #1 thing that will help your pad heat, is COMPRESSING YOUR BRAKING ZONE.
As you get more seat time, you will learn to do this, and you will build up less heat in the brakes. Braking less also helps :) helps you go faster too!
Slotted rotors are worthless bling. I spent several hundred $$ on a set of DBAs, which cracked in less than 2 weekends on track.[/QUOTE]
first of all I would consider more of intermediate track event experience but I agree with most of the above. I think I was riding my brakes a bit which increased heat a lot. I think reading this darn forums corrupted me and caused me to be nervous about my brakes. Never had problem tracking my bimmer and audi but they have better stock brakes and less hp.
One of the reason I am interested in a BBK is so I dont have to deal with my brakes as much, just swap in some more agressive pads, bed them and go. Versus doing something inbetween then I might still have problems, short term or long term. Now i am a bit worried about my rear brakes :confused:
thanks for the replies..
You have good pads (although I would upgrade to Carbotech XP9)
You have good fluid
now you need to throw some air at the rotors to cool them. This is overlooked way too often, but take a look on any serious race car (other than SS of course) and they have brake ducting. Keep those brakes ventilated and they work 100% better.
You can take out the foglights and use that hole to route some high temp silicone hose to the eye of the rotor.
and #1 thing that will help your pad heat, is COMPRESSING YOUR BRAKING ZONE.
As you get more seat time, you will learn to do this, and you will build up less heat in the brakes. Braking less also helps :) helps you go faster too!
Slotted rotors are worthless bling. I spent several hundred $$ on a set of DBAs, which cracked in less than 2 weekends on track.[/QUOTE]
first of all I would consider more of intermediate track event experience but I agree with most of the above. I think I was riding my brakes a bit which increased heat a lot. I think reading this darn forums corrupted me and caused me to be nervous about my brakes. Never had problem tracking my bimmer and audi but they have better stock brakes and less hp.
One of the reason I am interested in a BBK is so I dont have to deal with my brakes as much, just swap in some more agressive pads, bed them and go. Versus doing something inbetween then I might still have problems, short term or long term. Now i am a bit worried about my rear brakes :confused:
thanks for the replies..
| sixtoo | 04-15-2005 11:58 PM |
Hello. I'd like to keep this conversation alive and ask for some suggestions. I guess my concerns stem from years of mountain driving and no track driving. I am concerned with brake upgrades, especially for the rear, that will help the novice track driver the most.
[U]Current Set Up[/U]: 02 WRX Wagon gutted except for carpeting, front door panels and dashboard. Stock power setting with a Blitz catback. Exedy Hypersingle clutch/flywheel kit. 17x8 wheels with s03 225x45x17 tires. Cusco Zero2's, Cusco Swaybars, Helix Endlinks.
Here's the main issue that I'd like opinions on. I recently purchased a StopTech BBK for the front. [COLOR=Red]I was concerned about upgrading the rears to deminish the bias. Can anyone make suggestions?[/COLOR] I see the H6 is very popular. (By the way, the BBK is not on the car because I'm saving to address the rear brake issue. I'd like the car to feel balanced)
I am also concerned about my first track outting. [COLOR=Red]Should I run my stock set up with upgraded pads, lines, and fluids before graduating to the better brakes? Or should I just upgrade now?[/COLOR]
TIA,
tony
[U]Current Set Up[/U]: 02 WRX Wagon gutted except for carpeting, front door panels and dashboard. Stock power setting with a Blitz catback. Exedy Hypersingle clutch/flywheel kit. 17x8 wheels with s03 225x45x17 tires. Cusco Zero2's, Cusco Swaybars, Helix Endlinks.
Here's the main issue that I'd like opinions on. I recently purchased a StopTech BBK for the front. [COLOR=Red]I was concerned about upgrading the rears to deminish the bias. Can anyone make suggestions?[/COLOR] I see the H6 is very popular. (By the way, the BBK is not on the car because I'm saving to address the rear brake issue. I'd like the car to feel balanced)
I am also concerned about my first track outting. [COLOR=Red]Should I run my stock set up with upgraded pads, lines, and fluids before graduating to the better brakes? Or should I just upgrade now?[/COLOR]
TIA,
tony
| WillysPU | 04-16-2005 01:39 AM |
[QUOTE=Jeff_DML]Never had problem tracking my bimmer and audi but they have better stock brakes and less hp.
One of the reason I am interested in a BBK is so I dont have to deal with my brakes as much, just swap in some more agressive pads, bed them and go. Versus doing something inbetween then I might still have problems, short term or long term. Now i am a bit worried about my rear brakes[/QUOTE]
You are exactly right. If you are beyond beginer with some horse power mods the stock rotors with the stock calipers won't cut it. Basically, all the basic mods, better pads and fluids, allow you to build up more and more heat and the stock rotors can't handle the heat. It is passed on to the calipers and then into the brake lines and bearings.
I went with the TWR set up of 4 pots in front and 2 pots in rear because they allow me to run toyo ra-1's on my 16" wheel. I run the XP8's at the track and Bobcats on the street, they are similar materials and work great.
If you are serious about the track you will soon run in the top class. Don't worry about your rear brakes they only handle about 10% of the cars weight. And yes, I tried the H-6 set up, it's a joke, I will send mine to whoever wants to pay shipping. And Axis ultimate pads are tough on rotors.
Start by getting the best front set up you can afford. StopTech, Wildwood, TWR, Baer andy of the quality setups. Make sure they have a two piece rotor to help reduce the heat and the bigger the rotor the cooler the brakes. Once you get a bbk on the front you will stop over heating your system and it won't matter what type of fluid you use. I now use Wagners 5.1 for 2.95 for a 12 ounce bottle, no problems at all.
Believe me, I have tried all the steps and it isn't worth the time and wasted money, learn from my experience. Put the brake issue behind you and enjoy your track days!
btw: isn't it scary as he11 the first time you go into that corner and the pedal goes to the floor!!! It took me about 3 track days to get over that. Go for a quality system and enjoy instead of fear.
One of the reason I am interested in a BBK is so I dont have to deal with my brakes as much, just swap in some more agressive pads, bed them and go. Versus doing something inbetween then I might still have problems, short term or long term. Now i am a bit worried about my rear brakes[/QUOTE]
You are exactly right. If you are beyond beginer with some horse power mods the stock rotors with the stock calipers won't cut it. Basically, all the basic mods, better pads and fluids, allow you to build up more and more heat and the stock rotors can't handle the heat. It is passed on to the calipers and then into the brake lines and bearings.
I went with the TWR set up of 4 pots in front and 2 pots in rear because they allow me to run toyo ra-1's on my 16" wheel. I run the XP8's at the track and Bobcats on the street, they are similar materials and work great.
If you are serious about the track you will soon run in the top class. Don't worry about your rear brakes they only handle about 10% of the cars weight. And yes, I tried the H-6 set up, it's a joke, I will send mine to whoever wants to pay shipping. And Axis ultimate pads are tough on rotors.
Start by getting the best front set up you can afford. StopTech, Wildwood, TWR, Baer andy of the quality setups. Make sure they have a two piece rotor to help reduce the heat and the bigger the rotor the cooler the brakes. Once you get a bbk on the front you will stop over heating your system and it won't matter what type of fluid you use. I now use Wagners 5.1 for 2.95 for a 12 ounce bottle, no problems at all.
Believe me, I have tried all the steps and it isn't worth the time and wasted money, learn from my experience. Put the brake issue behind you and enjoy your track days!
btw: isn't it scary as he11 the first time you go into that corner and the pedal goes to the floor!!! It took me about 3 track days to get over that. Go for a quality system and enjoy instead of fear.
| WillysPU | 04-16-2005 01:49 AM |
[QUOTE=sixtoo]
Here's the main issue that I'd like opinions on. I recently purchased a StopTech BBK for the front. [color=red]I was concerned about upgrading the rears to deminish the bias. Can anyone make suggestions?[/color] I see the H6 is very popular. (By the way, the BBK is not on the car because I'm saving to address the rear brake issue. I'd like the car to feel balanced)
I am also concerned about my first track outting. [color=red]Should I run my stock set up with upgraded pads, lines, and fluids before graduating to the better brakes? Or should I just upgrade now?[/color] [/QUOTE]
As I said in the post above, I run a 4 pot/2pot set up with 320mm rotors in the front and rear. I would imagine that the bias on this set up is quite a bit different from the stock set up and after about 10 track days I haven't felt the rears lock up at all. I never felt any improvement from they h-6 set up, you want mine?
I say, strap on that bbk and go race!
Here's the main issue that I'd like opinions on. I recently purchased a StopTech BBK for the front. [color=red]I was concerned about upgrading the rears to deminish the bias. Can anyone make suggestions?[/color] I see the H6 is very popular. (By the way, the BBK is not on the car because I'm saving to address the rear brake issue. I'd like the car to feel balanced)
I am also concerned about my first track outting. [color=red]Should I run my stock set up with upgraded pads, lines, and fluids before graduating to the better brakes? Or should I just upgrade now?[/color] [/QUOTE]
As I said in the post above, I run a 4 pot/2pot set up with 320mm rotors in the front and rear. I would imagine that the bias on this set up is quite a bit different from the stock set up and after about 10 track days I haven't felt the rears lock up at all. I never felt any improvement from they h-6 set up, you want mine?
I say, strap on that bbk and go race!
| 4porsh | 04-16-2005 11:04 AM |
Jeff,
I will see you in May and give you a ride at the track. I have the Wilwood 6/4 set up with "E" pads.
Later,
---4porsh---
I will see you in May and give you a ride at the track. I have the Wilwood 6/4 set up with "E" pads.
Later,
---4porsh---
| slickvic | 04-16-2005 11:10 PM |
[QUOTE]
Here's the main issue that I'd like opinions on. I recently purchased a StopTech BBK for the front. I was concerned about upgrading the rears to deminish the bias. Can anyone make suggestions? I see the H6 is very popular. (By the way, the BBK is not on the car because I'm saving to address the rear brake issue. I'd like the car to feel balanced)
I am also concerned about my first track outting. Should I run my stock set up with upgraded pads, lines, and fluids before graduating to the better brakes? Or should I just upgrade now[/QUOTE]
As far as the brake bias with the stoptech kit you do not need to do anything to the rears except some stainless brake lines and maybe a slotted rotor. The stoptech kit is designed to work with the stock rears and it already adjusts the bias more to the rear. Upgrading to the H-6 rears maybe give you too much rear bias and then you would have a dangerous braking setup that would be very hard to control under braking and would force you to brake in a straight line at all times to prevent from spinning (If the bias was too much rearward; I know the H-6 would shift even more bias to the rear but I'm not sure if it would be so much that the rears would lock before the fronts). The stock rear brakes will be just fine at the track though as the fronts do most of the work anyway. I would stick with just the stoptech fronts and maybe a slotted rear rotor.
Here's the main issue that I'd like opinions on. I recently purchased a StopTech BBK for the front. I was concerned about upgrading the rears to deminish the bias. Can anyone make suggestions? I see the H6 is very popular. (By the way, the BBK is not on the car because I'm saving to address the rear brake issue. I'd like the car to feel balanced)
I am also concerned about my first track outting. Should I run my stock set up with upgraded pads, lines, and fluids before graduating to the better brakes? Or should I just upgrade now[/QUOTE]
As far as the brake bias with the stoptech kit you do not need to do anything to the rears except some stainless brake lines and maybe a slotted rotor. The stoptech kit is designed to work with the stock rears and it already adjusts the bias more to the rear. Upgrading to the H-6 rears maybe give you too much rear bias and then you would have a dangerous braking setup that would be very hard to control under braking and would force you to brake in a straight line at all times to prevent from spinning (If the bias was too much rearward; I know the H-6 would shift even more bias to the rear but I'm not sure if it would be so much that the rears would lock before the fronts). The stock rear brakes will be just fine at the track though as the fronts do most of the work anyway. I would stick with just the stoptech fronts and maybe a slotted rear rotor.
| WillysPU | 04-17-2005 01:44 AM |
[QUOTE=slickvic]The stoptech kit is designed to work with the stock rears and it already adjusts the bias more to the rear. [/QUOTE]
How exactly does it adjust for more rear bias?
[QUOTE=slickvic]Upgrading to the H-6 rears maybe give you too much rear bias and then you would have a dangerous braking setup .[/QUOTE]
Then why is this used on the Subaru Legacy?
How exactly does it adjust for more rear bias?
[QUOTE=slickvic]Upgrading to the H-6 rears maybe give you too much rear bias and then you would have a dangerous braking setup .[/QUOTE]
Then why is this used on the Subaru Legacy?
| Phil Jr. | 04-17-2005 12:43 PM |
WillysPU, ill take those H-6s off your hands if you only want shipping :D
| Crash477 | 04-17-2005 01:44 PM |
I went for a drive last night with an STi and another WRX on a really curvey road. I have carbotech Bobcats, motul dot 5.1 fluid, and ss lines. My brakes were great for the first couple of miles. I was sticking with the STi, and I mean we were driving really hard, braking hard into the turns. well after a couple of miles I stood on the brakes into a turn, and it wouldnt stop, I mean it slowed down, but not as quickly as it should have, or that i needed it to. so I had to back off to let the brakes cool down.
so I would not use Bobcats at a track.
so I would not use Bobcats at a track.
| XT6Wagon | 04-17-2005 01:59 PM |
Um, the stock brakes can work just fine at a track day. Look, you are not racing. You don't need to try to outbrake everything on the track. Just start to brake early and find spots where you can reduce brake usage with minimal added time to the lap time. What do you think racecar drivers have done for the last 100 years? Been a whole hell of alot of cars in that time that have horrible brakes compared to thier power. Somehow they all survived it.
Now on the Other hand Gary is/was racing, and with ruled limiting him as far as power wieght, and handling. There is NO choice but to make the braking as good as possible to find extra advantage over the other cars out there.
Now on the Other hand Gary is/was racing, and with ruled limiting him as far as power wieght, and handling. There is NO choice but to make the braking as good as possible to find extra advantage over the other cars out there.
| GarySheehan | 04-17-2005 04:02 PM |
[QUOTE=WillysPU]How exactly does it adjust for more rear bias?[/QUOTE]
The StopTech kit doesn't "adjust" for more rear bias. The StopTech pistons are sized so that the rears perform slightly more work than with the stock configuration. This results in better brake bias and shorter stopping distances.
[QUOTE=WillysPU]Then why is this used on the Subaru Legacy?[/QUOTE]
They are used on the Legacy because they match the stock front brakes, stock master cylinder and stock proportioning valve of the Legacy. Braking systems are just that, SYSTEMS. Bigger is not always better. Taking a Legacy H6 kit and throwing it on a WRX with a StopTech front kit will undo all of the engineering and design effort that StopTech has done to optimize the SYSTEM.
Read some of the whitepapers on their site and educate yourself. Seperate yourself from the ignorant masses that think "bigger is always better."
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
The StopTech kit doesn't "adjust" for more rear bias. The StopTech pistons are sized so that the rears perform slightly more work than with the stock configuration. This results in better brake bias and shorter stopping distances.
[QUOTE=WillysPU]Then why is this used on the Subaru Legacy?[/QUOTE]
They are used on the Legacy because they match the stock front brakes, stock master cylinder and stock proportioning valve of the Legacy. Braking systems are just that, SYSTEMS. Bigger is not always better. Taking a Legacy H6 kit and throwing it on a WRX with a StopTech front kit will undo all of the engineering and design effort that StopTech has done to optimize the SYSTEM.
Read some of the whitepapers on their site and educate yourself. Seperate yourself from the ignorant masses that think "bigger is always better."
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| Phil Jr. | 04-17-2005 05:32 PM |
So how does a rear stoptech BBK fit into the picture? How were they able to keep the rear braking torque down to stock levels with such large rotors? I have read the acticle about how the stoptech front BBK is designed to work best with a stock rear setup, what happens when you put on the rear kit?
| slickvic | 04-17-2005 08:03 PM |
[quote=Phil Jr.] So how does a rear stoptech BBK fit into the picture? How were they able to keep the rear braking torque down to stock levels with such large rotors? I have read the acticle about how the stoptech front BBK is designed to work best with a stock rear setup, what happens when you put on the rear kit?[/quote]
Unless you are just after the look dont get the stoptech rear kit. Stoptech reps themselves have said that the rears are not needed as they do so little of the brake work. They only made the rear kit because of the demand from people that wanted the look of big brakes all the way around.
As far as how they do it, they simply make the piston size larger as pressure is inversely propotional to the area of a piston (pressure=force/area). So they simply increase the area of the piston and it decrease the pressure applied to the rotor. (or maybe its F=P/A cant remeber, but regardless the principle is the same)
Unless you are just after the look dont get the stoptech rear kit. Stoptech reps themselves have said that the rears are not needed as they do so little of the brake work. They only made the rear kit because of the demand from people that wanted the look of big brakes all the way around.
As far as how they do it, they simply make the piston size larger as pressure is inversely propotional to the area of a piston (pressure=force/area). So they simply increase the area of the piston and it decrease the pressure applied to the rotor. (or maybe its F=P/A cant remeber, but regardless the principle is the same)
| GarySheehan | 04-17-2005 09:33 PM |
Other way around. Smaller pistons in the caliper reduce the force applied to the rotor.
The StopTech rear kit just has the appropriately sized pistons for the rear rotor that match the front StopTech kit. It's easy to maintain the same braking force with a larger rotor, simply reduce the piston sizes appropriately.
Now, I wouldn't say the rear StopTech brakes are useless. I would certainly run them on my race car, if they were available back then, for two reasons. The first is their rear caliper is significanlty stiffer than stock, which will improve pedal feel even more. The second is that they chose a pad size that has MANY different friction brands and compounds available for it. For real track duty, that's a big plus.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
The StopTech rear kit just has the appropriately sized pistons for the rear rotor that match the front StopTech kit. It's easy to maintain the same braking force with a larger rotor, simply reduce the piston sizes appropriately.
Now, I wouldn't say the rear StopTech brakes are useless. I would certainly run them on my race car, if they were available back then, for two reasons. The first is their rear caliper is significanlty stiffer than stock, which will improve pedal feel even more. The second is that they chose a pad size that has MANY different friction brands and compounds available for it. For real track duty, that's a big plus.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| Butt Dyno | 04-17-2005 10:44 PM |
[QUOTE=Crash477]so I would not use Bobcats at a track.[/QUOTE]Der. They are not track pads :)
| Jeff_DML | 04-18-2005 12:30 PM |
thread kind of came back to life :p
I ended up ordering the stoptech front BBK :banana: thanks for the replies
I ended up ordering the stoptech front BBK :banana: thanks for the replies
| slickvic | 04-18-2005 03:03 PM |
[QUOTE=GarySheehan]Other way around. Smaller pistons in the caliper reduce the force applied to the rotor.[/QUOTE]
Ok yeah my bad. P=F/A, decrease the area decrease the force applied.
Ok yeah my bad. P=F/A, decrease the area decrease the force applied.
| triguy | 04-18-2005 08:33 PM |
Jeff-DML:
I noticed that you're going with the Toyo T1S tire. If it's not too late, I'd suggest you go with a tire with a stiffer sidewall if you plan on doing a fair amount of tracking. The T1S has a softside wall which will diminsh your handling in the turns. Conversely, the Bridgestone RE070 and Yokohama Advan A046 have stiff sidewalls that are beneficial on the track but make for a harsher, louder ride on the street. It's all about compromises.
I noticed that you're going with the Toyo T1S tire. If it's not too late, I'd suggest you go with a tire with a stiffer sidewall if you plan on doing a fair amount of tracking. The T1S has a softside wall which will diminsh your handling in the turns. Conversely, the Bridgestone RE070 and Yokohama Advan A046 have stiff sidewalls that are beneficial on the track but make for a harsher, louder ride on the street. It's all about compromises.
| Jeff_DML | 04-18-2005 08:37 PM |
[QUOTE=triguy]Jeff-DML:
I noticed that you're going with the Toyo T1S tire. If it's not too late, I'd suggest you go with a tire with a stiffer sidewall if you plan on doing a fair amount of tracking. The T1S has a softside wall which will diminsh your handling in the turns. Conversely, the Bridgestone RE070 and Yokohama Advan A046 have stiff sidewalls that are beneficial on the track but make for a harsher, louder ride on the street. It's all about compromises.[/QUOTE]
I saw you original post, yeah I figured I could probably get by with different break setups but decided to go the overkill route so I dont have to mess around with them besides switching out pads.
As for the T1-S, I won them in a raffle at my last track event so they where free :disco: saw that thread in the tire forum saying the MX where better, oh well, at least they didnt cost me anything. :D
hey you are san diego, what events do you do?
thx
I noticed that you're going with the Toyo T1S tire. If it's not too late, I'd suggest you go with a tire with a stiffer sidewall if you plan on doing a fair amount of tracking. The T1S has a softside wall which will diminsh your handling in the turns. Conversely, the Bridgestone RE070 and Yokohama Advan A046 have stiff sidewalls that are beneficial on the track but make for a harsher, louder ride on the street. It's all about compromises.[/QUOTE]
I saw you original post, yeah I figured I could probably get by with different break setups but decided to go the overkill route so I dont have to mess around with them besides switching out pads.
As for the T1-S, I won them in a raffle at my last track event so they where free :disco: saw that thread in the tire forum saying the MX where better, oh well, at least they didnt cost me anything. :D
hey you are san diego, what events do you do?
thx
| Jack | 04-19-2005 03:50 PM |
This is a good educational thread and I'd like to add to it.
I ran an 01 RS that was street stock in time trials. Front was the 4 pots and H6 rear. On this car, this was a near ideal setup as it allowed me to stay in class (calipers must remain Subaru manufactured). I also added brake ducting for the front. Balance of the car was excellent, brake bias change was not noticed except that I could feel more braking capability and could brake later and harder.
What this system gives you is: larger rear and front rotors (for my RS, they both grow). Larger front pad area*. This is something that many people neglect to see. A larger pad area gives you a lower spot temperature. In other words, to generate the same stopping force, the same heat has to be generated, but with a bigger pad, that heat is spread over a larger area so the entire pad doesn't get as hot.
Oh, and please don't get suckered into using super blue. Its temp is horrible. At least go to Motul. I'm using Wilwood exp600....about 100 degrees higher than super blue. Ford HD is a pretty close comp to super blue (steps off soap box)
As you step up to the heavier, more powerful WRX, this setup is good for beginner and intermediate drivers but will be marginal for experienced drivers. I won't suggest something specific as I haven't gone up the ladder.....actually now drive a 1650 pound CRX. Look to others (like Gary) who have gone the route and listen to what happened.
Other things to consider: I'm sure you'll love this one..... Learn the limits of your equipment and drive within the limits. You know what the biggest complaint NASCAR drivers have? They have no braking. They pretty much have to start braking when they see the corner because they are not light, overbraked cars (like F1). You can do this on the track as well. It's easy enough to detect the start of fluid boiling. Brake a bit earlier and lighter. Adjust your line. In the middle of August, guys running showroom stock still have to run and they can't modify their brakes. sorry for the rant.... :D
jack
I ran an 01 RS that was street stock in time trials. Front was the 4 pots and H6 rear. On this car, this was a near ideal setup as it allowed me to stay in class (calipers must remain Subaru manufactured). I also added brake ducting for the front. Balance of the car was excellent, brake bias change was not noticed except that I could feel more braking capability and could brake later and harder.
What this system gives you is: larger rear and front rotors (for my RS, they both grow). Larger front pad area*. This is something that many people neglect to see. A larger pad area gives you a lower spot temperature. In other words, to generate the same stopping force, the same heat has to be generated, but with a bigger pad, that heat is spread over a larger area so the entire pad doesn't get as hot.
Oh, and please don't get suckered into using super blue. Its temp is horrible. At least go to Motul. I'm using Wilwood exp600....about 100 degrees higher than super blue. Ford HD is a pretty close comp to super blue (steps off soap box)
As you step up to the heavier, more powerful WRX, this setup is good for beginner and intermediate drivers but will be marginal for experienced drivers. I won't suggest something specific as I haven't gone up the ladder.....actually now drive a 1650 pound CRX. Look to others (like Gary) who have gone the route and listen to what happened.
Other things to consider: I'm sure you'll love this one..... Learn the limits of your equipment and drive within the limits. You know what the biggest complaint NASCAR drivers have? They have no braking. They pretty much have to start braking when they see the corner because they are not light, overbraked cars (like F1). You can do this on the track as well. It's easy enough to detect the start of fluid boiling. Brake a bit earlier and lighter. Adjust your line. In the middle of August, guys running showroom stock still have to run and they can't modify their brakes. sorry for the rant.... :D
jack
Không có nhận xét nào:
Đăng nhận xét