| Jsortor | 05-10-2006 09:12 AM |
WRX to DSP? Thoughts?
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I had a friend of mine in DSP, lets call him T.L., come up with a proposition for me. He runs one of those Uber fast 328 BMW hybrids. Apparently there is talk of moving all 3-series to BSP on one line. That would leave his, and about 5 other nationally competitive cars as nothing more than poo-poo'd investments (who knows how many other non-national cars).
Proposition, Move WRX from ESP to DSP. The BMW and STX follow each other in each of the other classes (DS, STX,...) so why not DSP as well. ESP is continuing to get faster, and from the way it looks, an STX WRX would need to find 4 seconds on a 60 second course to keep up. Does this seem attainable? What if it was 3 seconds (I.E. DSP)? Even with boost deregulation, can the WRX achieve even stock STI outputs (300/300)? It just seems to be a better fit in DSP. Any thoughts?
As a sidebar, what are your thoughts on moving the FWD DSP cars to FSP with this change? ITR's and such are still quite popular, and would inject some new blood (newer model cars) into FSP,and its dying numbers.
?? If this prop sounds good, we need to drop some emails to the [email][email�protected][/email] to see that it has a chance to go through for 2007.
Proposition, Move WRX from ESP to DSP. The BMW and STX follow each other in each of the other classes (DS, STX,...) so why not DSP as well. ESP is continuing to get faster, and from the way it looks, an STX WRX would need to find 4 seconds on a 60 second course to keep up. Does this seem attainable? What if it was 3 seconds (I.E. DSP)? Even with boost deregulation, can the WRX achieve even stock STI outputs (300/300)? It just seems to be a better fit in DSP. Any thoughts?
As a sidebar, what are your thoughts on moving the FWD DSP cars to FSP with this change? ITR's and such are still quite popular, and would inject some new blood (newer model cars) into FSP,and its dying numbers.
?? If this prop sounds good, we need to drop some emails to the [email][email�protected][/email] to see that it has a chance to go through for 2007.
| KC | 05-10-2006 09:46 AM |
The JCW mini is now in DSP also. UD/BD an '02 MCS to JCW, and you have one quick car... TOO quick for FSP.
I still feel the WRX is a great fit in ESP, along with the DSMs, now that boost is open. No reason to move the WRX before they've even had a chance to be contested with the current ruleset.
Used WRX prices are dropping, UD/BD a 2002 (lightest) to a 2.5L, open up boost, get the diffs in, and I think it can be a contender in ESP, but might take a couple years before someone actually goes and does such a thing.
Moving the BMWs to BSP would be good as they are really fast. Just do this:
BSP - E36, E36M3 on the same line.
Now, they can just drop in an M3 engine into their 325 bodies.
Looking at SD Tour, Larsson was .7 slower than Tunnells raw time on day one, but only just over .13 off on day two. DSP was faster than BSP in Ft Meyers. DSP 1.5 Slower in walnut ridge. No franken BMWs in Houston or Atwater.
2005 also shows some faster, some slower. It could come down to a course dependance issue. I will say this, IMHO, the BMWs are the fastest in DSP, and if you don't have one, you won't win if sone shows up. They're an overdog... so sometimes, you need to look into other options.
--kC
I still feel the WRX is a great fit in ESP, along with the DSMs, now that boost is open. No reason to move the WRX before they've even had a chance to be contested with the current ruleset.
Used WRX prices are dropping, UD/BD a 2002 (lightest) to a 2.5L, open up boost, get the diffs in, and I think it can be a contender in ESP, but might take a couple years before someone actually goes and does such a thing.
Moving the BMWs to BSP would be good as they are really fast. Just do this:
BSP - E36, E36M3 on the same line.
Now, they can just drop in an M3 engine into their 325 bodies.
Looking at SD Tour, Larsson was .7 slower than Tunnells raw time on day one, but only just over .13 off on day two. DSP was faster than BSP in Ft Meyers. DSP 1.5 Slower in walnut ridge. No franken BMWs in Houston or Atwater.
2005 also shows some faster, some slower. It could come down to a course dependance issue. I will say this, IMHO, the BMWs are the fastest in DSP, and if you don't have one, you won't win if sone shows up. They're an overdog... so sometimes, you need to look into other options.
--kC
| zzyzx | 05-10-2006 09:52 AM |
[QUOTE=Jsortor]I had a friend of mine in DSP, lets call him T.L., come up with a proposition for me. He runs one of those Uber fast 328 BMW hybrids. Apparently there is talk of moving all 3-series to BSP on one line. That would leave his, and about 5 other nationally competitive cars as nothing more than poo-poo'd investments (who knows how many other non-national cars).
[/quote]
Cry me a river. :)
[QUOTE=Jsortor]
As a sidebar, what are your thoughts on moving the FWD DSP cars to FSP with this change? ITR's and such are still quite popular, and would inject some new blood (newer model cars) into FSP,and its dying numbers.
[/QUOTE]
Kick out the Uber cars and let DSP get back to business. BMWSP is getting a little <yawn> boring.
However, if you want to put the WRX in DSP, then put it and the RS on the same line and allow full swappage. :devil:
[/quote]
Cry me a river. :)
[QUOTE=Jsortor]
As a sidebar, what are your thoughts on moving the FWD DSP cars to FSP with this change? ITR's and such are still quite popular, and would inject some new blood (newer model cars) into FSP,and its dying numbers.
[/QUOTE]
Kick out the Uber cars and let DSP get back to business. BMWSP is getting a little <yawn> boring.
However, if you want to put the WRX in DSP, then put it and the RS on the same line and allow full swappage. :devil:
| Jsortor | 05-10-2006 10:18 AM |
Just throwing it out there for comment. I know exactly how he feels. Although it "probably" would not happen, do I want to throw 6-10 G's at my own car to run ESP for a year, then "maybe" get moved to BSP and play second fiddle to an STI. I don't think so... I think there may be WRX drivers willing to go to SP, but not until a guini pig tries it out to make sure the investment is sound.....
KC, how did ESP fair in those events that you compared DSP to BSP?
KC, how did ESP fair in those events that you compared DSP to BSP?
| solo-x | 05-10-2006 11:37 AM |
so it's a travesty to make DSP BMW's obsolete, but perfectly fine to kill EVERYTHING in FSP? boot the BMW's from DSP and a bunch of other cars that were also rans become contenders. move a WRX from ESP to BSP and one car becomes a backmarker. move the BMW's to BSP and they'll probably still be contenders. i feel bad for your friend if his car really does become a BSP backmarker. looking at the results over the last 2yrs, i don't think he has a legitimate concern.
kC, gotta get the e30's into to BSP too. schipkov is just as fast as the e36's on 245's. he's got 285 steam rollers on the thing now. (the tires are so big they make the car look like a 2002 it's so small in relation) he put a full second on grant at the BMW event in raw time.
kC, gotta get the e30's into to BSP too. schipkov is just as fast as the e36's on 245's. he's got 285 steam rollers on the thing now. (the tires are so big they make the car look like a 2002 it's so small in relation) he put a full second on grant at the BMW event in raw time.
| zzyzx | 05-10-2006 11:44 AM |
[QUOTE=solo-x]kC, gotta get the e30's into to BSP too. schipkov is just as fast as the e36's on 245's. he's got 285 steam rollers on the thing now. (the tires are so big they make the car look like a 2002 it's so small in relation) he put a full second on grant at the BMW event in raw time.[/QUOTE]
Yep. I say send Shipkov to Siberia... opps - BSP with the rest of 'em. Hell, throw 'em a cookie:
BMW 3 series (all)
^ Same line for SP.
Yep. I say send Shipkov to Siberia... opps - BSP with the rest of 'em. Hell, throw 'em a cookie:
BMW 3 series (all)
^ Same line for SP.
| Draken | 05-10-2006 11:48 AM |
Simply replacing the frankenBMWs with frankenWRXs won't help DSP regain some diversity. I think DSP needs to return/remain a home for the dozens of smaller sporty cars. I would personally kick the DSP BMW E36 and similar cars into ESP, which as KC stated, is where competitive WRX could be classed.
Just my opinion.
c'
Just my opinion.
c'
| 10th Warrior | 05-10-2006 12:28 PM |
as much as I hate to say it, I agree with everything KC says :p That seems like the most logical solution. The only downsides are what to do about the E30 and the fact that the BSP bimmers would only get faster with ud/bd options, and that's the last thing we need ;)
| Jsortor | 05-10-2006 12:57 PM |
Sounds like this is a bad idea. Got it.
Here is a question then, remove the BMW then you get another Mini class right? Works package dominance?
Here is a question then, remove the BMW then you get another Mini class right? Works package dominance?
| KC | 05-10-2006 01:14 PM |
[QUOTE=Jsortor]Sounds like this is a bad idea. Got it.
Here is a question then, remove the BMW then you get another Mini class right? Works package dominance?[/QUOTE]
Not necessarily...
The BMW is that much an overdog that it's scared away many of the regulars in the class. There are still many people with alternate DSP cars that are fast. Just not as fast as the BMWs.
Here is a question then, remove the BMW then you get another Mini class right? Works package dominance?[/QUOTE]
Not necessarily...
The BMW is that much an overdog that it's scared away many of the regulars in the class. There are still many people with alternate DSP cars that are fast. Just not as fast as the BMWs.
| Patrick L | 05-10-2006 01:25 PM |
There is talk around at the main office about moving the E36's and E30's to BSP. If you lok at the Walnut Ridge tour from last year. Matucci out pax everyone and was faster raw time them FP which had several national competitve drivers.
This was brought up too me by Doug Gill at the Midiv in KC two weekends ago. He pointed out the Tour at WR last year.
I am going to write a letter hear soon about this.
This was brought up too me by Doug Gill at the Midiv in KC two weekends ago. He pointed out the Tour at WR last year.
I am going to write a letter hear soon about this.
| Patrick L | 05-10-2006 01:28 PM |
[QUOTE=Jsortor]Sounds like this is a bad idea. Got it.
Here is a question then, remove the BMW then you get another Mini class right? Works package dominance?[/QUOTE]
I don't think the Mini is going faster and if they are, not by much compared to the Celica Altrac and scooby.
Here is a question then, remove the BMW then you get another Mini class right? Works package dominance?[/QUOTE]
I don't think the Mini is going faster and if they are, not by much compared to the Celica Altrac and scooby.
| zzyzx | 05-10-2006 01:37 PM |
[QUOTE=Top_Dog]I don't think the Mini is going faster and if they are, not by much compared to the Celica Altrac and scooby.[/QUOTE]
Turbo Celica Alltrac with unlimited b0O0st > *
;)
Turbo Celica Alltrac with unlimited b0O0st > *
;)
| Draken | 05-10-2006 01:57 PM |
why dont we just bring back STR?
| deuce.five | 05-10-2006 02:01 PM |
Where would the 2.5 RS go if this were to happen? FSP??
| KC | 05-10-2006 02:09 PM |
It would stay in DSP I would think....
| KC | 05-10-2006 02:10 PM |
[QUOTE=Draken]why dont we just bring back STR?[/QUOTE]
LOL!
<-- one of the few competitors in STR.
LOL!
<-- one of the few competitors in STR.
| omahasubaru | 05-10-2006 02:21 PM |
I still think the WRX can hang in ESP now that boost limits are open.
I think the JCW Mini would dominate DSP if the 3's were moved.
Sure the WRX would do better in DSP than ESP though. So lets move the WRX down to DSP and put the 3's in ESP.
I think the JCW Mini would dominate DSP if the 3's were moved.
Sure the WRX would do better in DSP than ESP though. So lets move the WRX down to DSP and put the 3's in ESP.
| solo-x | 05-10-2006 02:48 PM |
how much does a JCW mini weigh? can it hang with a 1985lb, double wishbone car with 140whp? can it run a 245+ tire? i think the JCW mini is a definite contender. i drove a couple at our beginners school last weekend. will it be an overdog? no. the car to have? maybe. there is a lot of other really interesting prospects in DSP. none of them are being looked into because the e36 and e30 BMW's are dominating by such a huge margin.
where does the is300 stand in all this? it's just as fast as the BMW's. it has just been flying under the radar for the last year or so.
where does the is300 stand in all this? it's just as fast as the BMW's. it has just been flying under the radar for the last year or so.
| DrBiggly | 05-10-2006 02:50 PM |
I don't think that moving the WRX to DSP is a good idea as I think it's appropriately classed in ESP, just nobody has given it a good shot.
I do agree on the BMWs all going to BSP though as I think that's an appropriate move. :)
-Biggly
I do agree on the BMWs all going to BSP though as I think that's an appropriate move. :)
-Biggly
| 10th Warrior | 05-10-2006 03:03 PM |
[quote]where does the is300 stand in all this? it's just as fast as the BMW's. it has just been flying under the radar for the last year or so.[/quote]
Good point. It would have to go to BSP (or ESP) as well.
The all-trac certainly would be interesting without boost restrictions. Maybe, maybe even the XR4Ti for grins as well :)
Good point. It would have to go to BSP (or ESP) as well.
The all-trac certainly would be interesting without boost restrictions. Maybe, maybe even the XR4Ti for grins as well :)
| sstrano | 05-10-2006 04:23 PM |
Ever hear the phrase "talk is cheap"? There is some truth to some things that have been stated here. But none of it is actually 100% accurate.
I'm on the SPAC, as is Joel Fehrman. I'm sure we'd both be interested in hearing if you all would prefer to move WRX's from ESP to DSP.
I'm on the SPAC, as is Joel Fehrman. I'm sure we'd both be interested in hearing if you all would prefer to move WRX's from ESP to DSP.
| zzyzx | 05-10-2006 04:37 PM |
[QUOTE=sstrano]I'm on the SPAC, as is Joel Fehrman. I'm sure we'd both be interested in hearing if you all would prefer to move WRX's from ESP to DSP.[/QUOTE]
I suppose ESP would be more "pure" with nary a rally car in sight, but only one proposed the idea and at that, on behalf of an unnamed 3rd party. The rest of those who've posted oppose the idea.
I suppose ESP would be more "pure" with nary a rally car in sight, but only one proposed the idea and at that, on behalf of an unnamed 3rd party. The rest of those who've posted oppose the idea.
| Patrick L | 05-10-2006 05:18 PM |
[QUOTE=sstrano]Ever hear the phrase "talk is cheap"? There is some truth to some things that have been stated here. But none of it is actually 100% accurate.
I'm on the SPAC, as is Joel Fehrman. I'm sure we'd both be interested in hearing if you all would prefer to move WRX's from ESP to DSP.[/QUOTE]
No, what should be done is E36, E30 bmws and IS300 too BSP. This is also from many others.
The WRX can compete in ESP. You just need to spend some money.
I'm on the SPAC, as is Joel Fehrman. I'm sure we'd both be interested in hearing if you all would prefer to move WRX's from ESP to DSP.[/QUOTE]
No, what should be done is E36, E30 bmws and IS300 too BSP. This is also from many others.
The WRX can compete in ESP. You just need to spend some money.
| PhilC | 05-10-2006 05:39 PM |
I still think that the WRX can compete in ESP as well. Too expensive for my blood though as we'd need to update\backdate a 2.5 engine into our car in addition to the diffs and other modifications that would make the car essentially undriveable on the street.
| Jsortor | 05-10-2006 06:12 PM |
I guess ultimately we need some realistic data to back-up either side or this deal. The problem is that, unlike the BMW in DSP, No one really thinks the WRX could be a contender (and in no way an over dog) unless absolutely fully prepped for the class. My opinion is that best case scenario, the car has a chance if you bust your ass, and worst case scenario, the car can't win ESP but is too fast for the non-BMW DSP, leaving 8-10Grand burned up in mods to a car that is nothing now but intertainment for the competitor looking to have fun, but not win anything....
....This is why WRX's grow up and die in STX.
....This is why WRX's grow up and die in STX.
| Draken | 05-10-2006 06:25 PM |
Josh: In my mind, SP classing needs to revolve around the idea that the car will be fully developed. You can't expect SPAC to create a competitive home for a mild/medium prepped SP WRX. Sure, most of the SP cars in the country are not fully developed, but classing has never revolved around that.
That said, here would be my take:
-move E30 and E36 BMW to ESP
-keep turbo AWD cars currently in ESP there, perhaps looking to allow more ud/bd within models
-this steps dsp back to many of the 90's sporty compacts, like GSR, Neon, SER, 2.5RS, etc.
-try not to move too much bigger stuff into FSP, as it remains one of the few small hp light weight classes
Going to Wendover btw?
Chris H.
That said, here would be my take:
-move E30 and E36 BMW to ESP
-keep turbo AWD cars currently in ESP there, perhaps looking to allow more ud/bd within models
-this steps dsp back to many of the 90's sporty compacts, like GSR, Neon, SER, 2.5RS, etc.
-try not to move too much bigger stuff into FSP, as it remains one of the few small hp light weight classes
Going to Wendover btw?
Chris H.
| zzyzx | 05-10-2006 06:35 PM |
[QUOTE=Draken]
-move E30 and E36 BMW to ESP
-keep turbo AWD cars currently in ESP there, perhaps looking to allow more ud/bd within models
-this steps dsp back to many of the 90's sporty compacts, like GSR, Neon, SER, 2.5RS, etc.
-try not to move too much bigger stuff into FSP, as it remains one of the few small hp light weight classes
[/QUOTE]
FTW.
However, Sam may respectfully disagree, though the year-over-year data certainly would back up a move of the BMWs (and IS300...) to ESP.
-move E30 and E36 BMW to ESP
-keep turbo AWD cars currently in ESP there, perhaps looking to allow more ud/bd within models
-this steps dsp back to many of the 90's sporty compacts, like GSR, Neon, SER, 2.5RS, etc.
-try not to move too much bigger stuff into FSP, as it remains one of the few small hp light weight classes
[/QUOTE]
FTW.
However, Sam may respectfully disagree, though the year-over-year data certainly would back up a move of the BMWs (and IS300...) to ESP.
| Mhyrr | 05-10-2006 07:13 PM |
For the structure of DSP to change, A LOT of cars would have to move - the E36, the E30, the E46, the IS300... I can't imagine them getting moved to ESP, not only would the ESP crowd scream bloody murder (and rightly so..), the DSP cars are too fast for ESP. Unfortunately though, they'd still be too slow for BSP (the theoretical line "E36 (all)" buys you nothing except 30 lbs for SP trim)
For DSP to really become a "90s sport compact" class, which I admit I wouldn't mind seeing, the MCS would have to be moved too. To where? I can find places for the above cars (sorta..), but the Mini is a DSP car too..
I'm not sure I completely agree with the idea of that kind of move.. it will change DSP from a Bimmer class to.. a Bimmer (Mini) class.. At 23xx and gobs of power and torque, I'm not sure much else would get built yet, and I'm not sure many would get built. I'd love to build an Integra hybird, or heck even find an old AE86 Corolla, but I wouldn't do it with the Mini hanging around.
Lots of interesting ideas, the extent of them would make fairly big shifts in SP-world.
-Greg
For DSP to really become a "90s sport compact" class, which I admit I wouldn't mind seeing, the MCS would have to be moved too. To where? I can find places for the above cars (sorta..), but the Mini is a DSP car too..
I'm not sure I completely agree with the idea of that kind of move.. it will change DSP from a Bimmer class to.. a Bimmer (Mini) class.. At 23xx and gobs of power and torque, I'm not sure much else would get built yet, and I'm not sure many would get built. I'd love to build an Integra hybird, or heck even find an old AE86 Corolla, but I wouldn't do it with the Mini hanging around.
Lots of interesting ideas, the extent of them would make fairly big shifts in SP-world.
-Greg
| Jsortor | 05-10-2006 07:20 PM |
[QUOTE=Draken]Josh: In my mind, SP classing needs to revolve around the idea that the car will be fully developed. You can't expect SPAC to create a competitive home for a mild/medium prepped SP WRX. Sure, most of the SP cars in the country are not fully developed, but classing has never revolved around that.
That said, here would be my take:
-move E30 and E36 BMW to ESP
-keep turbo AWD cars currently in ESP there, perhaps looking to allow more ud/bd within models
-this steps dsp back to many of the 90's sporty compacts, like GSR, Neon, SER, 2.5RS, etc.
-try not to move too much bigger stuff into FSP, as it remains one of the few small hp light weight classes
Going to Wendover btw?
Chris H.[/QUOTE]
I don't think so. Not with the way fuel is right now. Plus, the expenses will only be detracting from my ESP fund right?.......
That said, here would be my take:
-move E30 and E36 BMW to ESP
-keep turbo AWD cars currently in ESP there, perhaps looking to allow more ud/bd within models
-this steps dsp back to many of the 90's sporty compacts, like GSR, Neon, SER, 2.5RS, etc.
-try not to move too much bigger stuff into FSP, as it remains one of the few small hp light weight classes
Going to Wendover btw?
Chris H.[/QUOTE]
I don't think so. Not with the way fuel is right now. Plus, the expenses will only be detracting from my ESP fund right?.......
| solo-x | 05-10-2006 07:30 PM |
the dsp bmw's have beaten SM outright. not ESP material imo.
| Mhyrr | 05-10-2006 10:23 PM |
[QUOTE=solo-x]the dsp bmw's have beaten SM outright. not ESP material imo.[/QUOTE]
?? Not nationally on a level playing field.
?? Not nationally on a level playing field.
| cdmnky | 05-10-2006 10:47 PM |
[QUOTE=solo-x]the dsp bmw's have beaten SM outright. not ESP material imo.[/QUOTE]
OMGWTFBBQ!!! You really think my little DSP car can keep up with, nevertheless beat Sias or Tunnell running their E36-bodied, but much lighter, re-engineered suspension, much more powerful cars? Come on... CM race gas couldn't have gotten to you that quick. ;)
Sending the DSP cars to BSP will kill them along with the M3s. I don't think an E36 will be able to hang with an STi or Evo once their development really gets going. My bet is that Joel's car will beat up on BSP this year at Nats.
-Mike
OMGWTFBBQ!!! You really think my little DSP car can keep up with, nevertheless beat Sias or Tunnell running their E36-bodied, but much lighter, re-engineered suspension, much more powerful cars? Come on... CM race gas couldn't have gotten to you that quick. ;)
Sending the DSP cars to BSP will kill them along with the M3s. I don't think an E36 will be able to hang with an STi or Evo once their development really gets going. My bet is that Joel's car will beat up on BSP this year at Nats.
-Mike
| zzyzx | 05-10-2006 11:56 PM |
[QUOTE=solo-x]the dsp bmw's have beaten SM outright. not ESP material imo.[/QUOTE]
Show us the results. I can't imagine what (meaningful) event you could be referring to.
As I said, if you look at the data over the past 3 years, you'll see that the DSP BMWs/IS300 are competitive with the ESP cars. I'm sure if you put "BMW 3 series (all)" on a line, and threw them all into BSP, they'd have no problem keeping up with the rally cars.
Show us the results. I can't imagine what (meaningful) event you could be referring to.
As I said, if you look at the data over the past 3 years, you'll see that the DSP BMWs/IS300 are competitive with the ESP cars. I'm sure if you put "BMW 3 series (all)" on a line, and threw them all into BSP, they'd have no problem keeping up with the rally cars.
| TypeR | 05-11-2006 12:32 AM |
I know that I'm arriving late, but I think that the initial proposition was a good one. Move the WRX to DSP. Anyone think that it could be competitive in ESP? I think not. We priced out the mods to make our STX car (which won in Atwater btw) a fully prepped ESP car, and at roughly $15k, I still don't think there is any chance it would be 4 seconds faster. Have you guys seen Motonishi drive Botkin's black Camaro? No WRX is ever gonna go that fast. Lets give the BMWs a fight in DSP and call it good. There has got to be some agreement that the WRX could never be the overdog in DSP, and since it was a BMW driver that brought this up, why not move the WRX? Is anyone ever gonna build an ESP WRX anyway?
| Storm | 05-11-2006 02:02 AM |
I don't see how moving the WRX to DSP helps DSP as a class. Far fewer cars would need to be moved from DSP than cars have been outclassed with the dominance of the E36 frankenbimmers. There are no problems in FSP that need to be "fixed" by moving a bunch of cars too slow for the current DSP down.
If nobody builds an ESP WRX, what possible basis can one have for moving it? Right now the WRX is really competitive in STX so naturally that would be the class to go to first. If ESP is questionable for the WRX, only the brave or those seeking a higher challenge are gonna make an effort to see what happens in ESP trim. Why assume that it will flounder and seek the move to DSP before the data supports the idea?
Do we know how the WRX will shape up with the right wheel/tire combo and EM to take advantage of the boost rule? It's gonna take a season or more before we see just how well the WRX will be where it is now. Moving to DSP now is not a good answer imho. Let us NA Imprezas finish the development in the fight against the frankenbimmers first. Let [b]US[/b] swap the EJ25 into any year Impreza since the listing doesn't call out "RS" specifically and see what happens.....Better yet...put the RS and WRX on the same line!
Jay Storm
If nobody builds an ESP WRX, what possible basis can one have for moving it? Right now the WRX is really competitive in STX so naturally that would be the class to go to first. If ESP is questionable for the WRX, only the brave or those seeking a higher challenge are gonna make an effort to see what happens in ESP trim. Why assume that it will flounder and seek the move to DSP before the data supports the idea?
Do we know how the WRX will shape up with the right wheel/tire combo and EM to take advantage of the boost rule? It's gonna take a season or more before we see just how well the WRX will be where it is now. Moving to DSP now is not a good answer imho. Let us NA Imprezas finish the development in the fight against the frankenbimmers first. Let [b]US[/b] swap the EJ25 into any year Impreza since the listing doesn't call out "RS" specifically and see what happens.....Better yet...put the RS and WRX on the same line!
Jay Storm
| solo-x | 05-11-2006 08:20 AM |
looks like i was wrong with my previous statement. DSP hasn't beaten SM outright at the national events i looked at. they've been really damn close though.
requesting the wrx get moved to DSP now is really cole'esq. is it not competitive in ESP because no one wants to spend the money, or is it that way because it's not fast enough when built to the limit? we can't answer the second part until someone addresses the first. if it's the first part that makes it uncompetitive, what happens when it moves to DSP, someone spends $5k building a half ass example and someone else sees potential for overdogness and spends that $15k required? the guy that spent $5k is still going to get his ass kicked and the car will likely have to be reclassed AGAIN. meanwhile, DSP goes through another year of a single car dominance. sure, that's a bunch of speculation on my part, but it's no worse then someone saying a wrx has no chance in DSP without building one and trying.
nate
requesting the wrx get moved to DSP now is really cole'esq. is it not competitive in ESP because no one wants to spend the money, or is it that way because it's not fast enough when built to the limit? we can't answer the second part until someone addresses the first. if it's the first part that makes it uncompetitive, what happens when it moves to DSP, someone spends $5k building a half ass example and someone else sees potential for overdogness and spends that $15k required? the guy that spent $5k is still going to get his ass kicked and the car will likely have to be reclassed AGAIN. meanwhile, DSP goes through another year of a single car dominance. sure, that's a bunch of speculation on my part, but it's no worse then someone saying a wrx has no chance in DSP without building one and trying.
nate
| Mhyrr | 05-11-2006 12:17 PM |
[QUOTE=TypeR]Have you guys seen Motonishi drive Botkin's black Camaro? No WRX is ever gonna go that fast. Lets give the BMWs a fight in DSP and call it good. There has got to be some agreement that the WRX could never be the overdog in DSP, and since it was a BMW driver that brought this up, why not move the WRX? Is anyone ever gonna build an ESP WRX anyway?[/QUOTE]
A DSP BMW will be _faster_ than Botkin's Camaro.. the tough part with the ESP crowd is that they've got such a long development history in their cars. The new 2.5 will giterdone, or close, but it will take awhile.
The question with DSP would be: is there something broke? As the X1/9 faded away.. new cars in DSP came to the fore, nothing really got outclassed, they were in DSP the whole time. There wasn't some stupid move that caused the DSP shift, the cars just got developed. And its not a single car dominating class either - the E36, E30, IS300, and E46 all have a shot. I have a dog in the fight, as I'd like to take my 325 to DSP, but I do think it makes sense for them to be moved. Not for any of these reasons, they're not valid, but for the disparity that exists in SP right now. We've got A/B/C/D/E SP - with high dollar cars, pricey everything, $6k shocks, (CSP isn't quite as bad but still pricey) etc.. and then we've got FSP, fairly cheap - $7-10k for an entire car. I'd like to see DSP bridge that gap a bit better, plus it would be ncie to see a few more FWD options in SP. Take out the the above 4 cars and DSP would have a lot of possible options: Integra, SOHC 92-95 Civic, MCS, Impreza 2.5RS, AE86 Corolla, 240SX, Omni GLHS, Neon, etc, etc..
A DSP BMW will be _faster_ than Botkin's Camaro.. the tough part with the ESP crowd is that they've got such a long development history in their cars. The new 2.5 will giterdone, or close, but it will take awhile.
The question with DSP would be: is there something broke? As the X1/9 faded away.. new cars in DSP came to the fore, nothing really got outclassed, they were in DSP the whole time. There wasn't some stupid move that caused the DSP shift, the cars just got developed. And its not a single car dominating class either - the E36, E30, IS300, and E46 all have a shot. I have a dog in the fight, as I'd like to take my 325 to DSP, but I do think it makes sense for them to be moved. Not for any of these reasons, they're not valid, but for the disparity that exists in SP right now. We've got A/B/C/D/E SP - with high dollar cars, pricey everything, $6k shocks, (CSP isn't quite as bad but still pricey) etc.. and then we've got FSP, fairly cheap - $7-10k for an entire car. I'd like to see DSP bridge that gap a bit better, plus it would be ncie to see a few more FWD options in SP. Take out the the above 4 cars and DSP would have a lot of possible options: Integra, SOHC 92-95 Civic, MCS, Impreza 2.5RS, AE86 Corolla, 240SX, Omni GLHS, Neon, etc, etc..
| alltracin | 05-11-2006 01:49 PM |
As Mhyrr started to mention, no one has seen what a 2.5L WRX can do in ESP. The 2.5L (and 4pot brakes, etc) has taken a car that was not competitive in DS to a car that many people think may win in Topeka this September. Why, with all the extra displacement and low end torque (AND low factory boost levels) does no one see possibility in that car? Come on now, DSP should be where the cheap cars play (neons, etc). Let the BMWs go to ESP or BSP, I don't really care which. Leave the WRX in ESP to see how it sorts itself out.
Most importantly remember, NOT EVERY CAR CAN BE COMPETITIVE! Just because it can't win, doesn't mean that the car has not been classed correctly. Do you think (assuming proper setup) a 1G front wheel drive DSM is going to beat a WRX in ESP? Probably not, assuming equal drivers. So should the DSM get moved down? No, it's the spirit of the class. My alltrac is in DSP, and I feel it should be moved UP to ESP, since that's the spirit of the class it fits into. It will never be competitive, but that happens.
Most importantly remember, NOT EVERY CAR CAN BE COMPETITIVE! Just because it can't win, doesn't mean that the car has not been classed correctly. Do you think (assuming proper setup) a 1G front wheel drive DSM is going to beat a WRX in ESP? Probably not, assuming equal drivers. So should the DSM get moved down? No, it's the spirit of the class. My alltrac is in DSP, and I feel it should be moved UP to ESP, since that's the spirit of the class it fits into. It will never be competitive, but that happens.
| KC | 05-11-2006 01:52 PM |
[QUOTE=alltracin]Do you think (assuming proper setup) a 1G front wheel drive DSM is going to beat a WRX in ESP? Probably not, assuming equal drivers. So should the DSM get moved down? No, it's the spirit of the class. My alltrac is in DSP, and I feel it should be moved UP to ESP, since that's the spirit of the class it fits into. It will never be competitive, but that happens.[/QUOTE]Bad example. You can convert a FWD DSM to AWD through UD/DB because they're all on the same line.
It makes no sense to do that.. and just start out with the AWD to start with. Add onto that, a DSM finished 6th at nationals this year... and now with open boost... :) (Charles is in my region).
--kC
It makes no sense to do that.. and just start out with the AWD to start with. Add onto that, a DSM finished 6th at nationals this year... and now with open boost... :) (Charles is in my region).
--kC
| alltracin | 05-11-2006 01:57 PM |
ok bad example, but the point is still there
| PKer | 11-20-2006 08:12 PM |
Bump, let's re-open this discussion now that the SEB is going to overhaul SP classing.
Since the WRX wins in STX there has been no real incentive to move to SP, but now that they are starting to age and break SP becomes more inviting (mmmm good diffs).
Everyone I've talked to believes that as soon as a well prepped WRX wins ESP on that slippery HPT surface it will most likely get moved to BSP where like Josh said, it will play second fiddle to the STi. Let's face it ESP is the pony car class and will likely remain that way.
Aaaargh!! I wish I knew more about the plans for SP, it is pretty darn hard to write a rule change while the rules are changing!
Since the WRX wins in STX there has been no real incentive to move to SP, but now that they are starting to age and break SP becomes more inviting (mmmm good diffs).
Everyone I've talked to believes that as soon as a well prepped WRX wins ESP on that slippery HPT surface it will most likely get moved to BSP where like Josh said, it will play second fiddle to the STi. Let's face it ESP is the pony car class and will likely remain that way.
Aaaargh!! I wish I knew more about the plans for SP, it is pretty darn hard to write a rule change while the rules are changing!
| KC | 11-21-2006 07:45 AM |
[QUOTE=PKer;16060256] Let's face it ESP is the pony car class and will likely remain that way.[/QUOTE]Incorrect. The DSM has been there for a very long time in addition to the turbo Supra. However, there's only been a handful of people capable enough to run a DSM in ESP and trophy. It's always been a big battle in ESP... between those who think it should be a only a pony car class vs. those that think the cars are classed just fine.
--kC
--kC
| cdmnky | 11-21-2006 02:12 PM |
[QUOTE=KC;16064640]Incorrect. The DSM has been there for a very long time in addition to the turbo Supra. However, there's only been a handful of people capable enough to run a DSM in ESP and trophy. It's always been a big battle in ESP... between those who think it should be a only a pony car class vs. those that think the cars are classed just fine.
--kC[/QUOTE]
KC,
The turbo Supra's been in BSP since about 98/99(?) and the fuel cut/turbo boost issue. The only car that's been competitive and not tossed is the DSM. I heard grumblings about Charles' car at Nats because of the surface.
-Mike
--kC[/QUOTE]
KC,
The turbo Supra's been in BSP since about 98/99(?) and the fuel cut/turbo boost issue. The only car that's been competitive and not tossed is the DSM. I heard grumblings about Charles' car at Nats because of the surface.
-Mike
| PKer | 11-21-2006 02:21 PM |
I remember seeing the "How soon can we have AWDSP" thread within days of Nationals. That may be the vocal minority, but you know....the squeaky wheel gets the grease.
Do you really think that the WRX would not get moved right away just like the STi?
Do you really think that the WRX would not get moved right away just like the STi?
| bjorn240 | 11-21-2006 02:30 PM |
Yeah, bump the BMWs to BSP, and I'll finally have a reason to start on my built-to-the-nuts DSP Volvo 240 Turbo!
For what it's worth, I think the E30 should probably be allowed to stay in DSP. It fits the class, and shouldn't be punished because of its E36 and E46 brothers. Is it still the best DSP package? Maybe, but it also matches up historically against the other cars in the class.
Just my $0.02
For what it's worth, I think the E30 should probably be allowed to stay in DSP. It fits the class, and shouldn't be punished because of its E36 and E46 brothers. Is it still the best DSP package? Maybe, but it also matches up historically against the other cars in the class.
Just my $0.02
| kwh29 | 11-21-2006 02:52 PM |
[QUOTE=bjorn240;16069649]Yeah, bump the BMWs to BSP, and I'll finally have a reason to start on my built-to-the-nuts DSP Volvo 240 Turbo!
For what it's worth, I think the E30 should probably be allowed to stay in DSP. It fits the class, and shouldn't be punished because of its E36 and E46 brothers. Is it still the best DSP package? Maybe, but it also matches up historically against the other cars in the class.
Just my $0.02[/QUOTE]
If I was still a member I'd write a letter in support of that. The E30 wasn't an overdog back in the day before E36/IS300 domination.
I'd enjoy seeing the BSP listing read BMW E36 (all) and the DSP listing read BMW E30 (all). The RS just might have a chance in a DSP like that.
--Kevin H.
For what it's worth, I think the E30 should probably be allowed to stay in DSP. It fits the class, and shouldn't be punished because of its E36 and E46 brothers. Is it still the best DSP package? Maybe, but it also matches up historically against the other cars in the class.
Just my $0.02[/QUOTE]
If I was still a member I'd write a letter in support of that. The E30 wasn't an overdog back in the day before E36/IS300 domination.
I'd enjoy seeing the BSP listing read BMW E36 (all) and the DSP listing read BMW E30 (all). The RS just might have a chance in a DSP like that.
--Kevin H.
| PKer | 11-21-2006 02:58 PM |
[quote=bjorn240;16069649]Yeah, bump the BMWs to BSP, and I'll finally have a reason to start on my built-to-the-nuts DSP Volvo 240 Turbo!
For what it's worth, I think the E30 should probably be allowed to stay in DSP. It fits the class, and shouldn't be punished because of its E36 and E46 brothers. Is it still the best DSP package? Maybe, but it also matches up historically against the other cars in the class.
Just my $0.02[/quote]
I agree, I'd like to see and SP that had the WRX, E36 (non M), E30 M, IS300, Mini S (plus JCW), DSM, Celica All-Trac (that ones for you alltracin) I think all of these cars would be well matched against each other
For what it's worth, I think the E30 should probably be allowed to stay in DSP. It fits the class, and shouldn't be punished because of its E36 and E46 brothers. Is it still the best DSP package? Maybe, but it also matches up historically against the other cars in the class.
Just my $0.02[/quote]
I agree, I'd like to see and SP that had the WRX, E36 (non M), E30 M, IS300, Mini S (plus JCW), DSM, Celica All-Trac (that ones for you alltracin) I think all of these cars would be well matched against each other
| jcroy66 | 11-21-2006 03:20 PM |
So I don't understand. Are you guys (bjorn 240 and kwh29) claiming that the E36 is currently totally dominating the class but that if the E36 was gone, the E30 wouldn't? Wouldn't it follow then that Shchipkov's E30 can't currently keep up with the E36s?? He seems to be doing just fine (2nd in 2006, 2nd in 2005, 3rd in 2004)?
| rautox | 11-21-2006 04:14 PM |
[QUOTE=PKer;16069538]I remember seeing the "How soon can we have AWDSP" thread within days of Nationals. [/QUOTE]
The rally cars are distinct and fast in a sort of course and weather-dependent way. Class-wise, that makes them play not so well with others. Combining "best of breed" thing with their recent boost in popularity, I wouldn't be surprised to see imprezas (all), evo's, and a few awd-others in their own sp-sandbox.
Would that be a bad thing? I always thought the pre-rallycar bsp cars were pretty cool. :confused:
The rally cars are distinct and fast in a sort of course and weather-dependent way. Class-wise, that makes them play not so well with others. Combining "best of breed" thing with their recent boost in popularity, I wouldn't be surprised to see imprezas (all), evo's, and a few awd-others in their own sp-sandbox.
Would that be a bad thing? I always thought the pre-rallycar bsp cars were pretty cool. :confused:
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